I’ve given up hope at this point

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Comments

  • Bugmat78Bugmat78 Member Posts: 2,381 ★★★★★
    edited October 16
    KLZ said:

    Maybe the problem is with "your" RNG, which sometimes doesn't work like "true" RNG...

    Aha....

    *goes off to search post history about pseudo random number generators and the type that might be used in a mobile game*
  • Frumpy_geezerFrumpy_geezer Member Posts: 52
    I'm trying to argue both sides. I'm letting you know it's incredibly difficult to fix these things without breaking way more. I'm pretty sure that's what DNA is saying also. And that's what crashed said too. But since no one accepts what a character/content developer tries to explain on his free time (sorry crashed if I'm wrong about your position) we are trying to explain the complexity of "fixing" the "AI"

    It's the opposite of talking down. We're literally talking you up. Trying to let you know why it sucks. Why Kabam can't make it not suck any time soon. But I feel and I think not only me that it will in fact not suck soon. And that soon too you is different from people who already have the next phase of the game done because they have to release halloween **** before Halloween and it's got to be planned out and **** it has a bug we've got to fix that now...

    Get it?
  • ReferenceReference Member Posts: 2,910 ★★★★★

    NüΚΞ said:

    @kabam Crashed I know you are just responding and I don’t want this to seem like a personal attack but I believe the situation is dire. Everyone is talking about the ai. Even the CCP who typically side steps the ai or casually mentions it is complaining openly. Months to fix is something many of us have heard here on the forums many of times. It has become a point of frustration and easy to disregard as another false promise

    Don't worry, I don't take it as a personal attack. I know you and others are frustrated, and you have a right to be.

    The info DNA has shared in this thread is important, not because everybody needs to know how the AI works, but because I think players should know what we are actually talking about when we say "AI". "Fixing" it isn't easy, because it's not "broken", it's just different. In a rhythm fighting game, different is a problem. Players learned one thing, now it's at least in some cases another. And it was not an intentional change that caused this discrepancy. If we could simply set the AI to work like it did 2 years ago we would, but we can't.

    And just to be clear, DNA basically said this already, but I want to reiterate. The AI doesn't know what a parry is, it doesn't know what a dex is, it doesn't know what an intercept is. So we can't just tell it "light intercept less" because it doesn't know what that means. It's a weighted random number generator that is happening to roll light attack at the moment it needs to to intercept you. As the community has seen, any "fix" has consequences. So if we are able to set the AI to not roll light attack in those situations, it still has to do something. And what that something is might end up being even more frustrating.

    There has been a group that has been working to address these issues already for months. We aren't taking it lightly, but I want to be reasonable about expectations here. We are committed to resolving these issues but it's probably the hardest thing to "fix" that the team has ever been faced with, because the system we are working with wasn't designed with any real intention for these situations that are very relevant to the modern MCoC experience.
    I don’t understand the rationale that when your programmers innovated codes “taught” AI in a non-expected way and affecting the entire community, you asked the community tolerate without any give and take, without any roadmap but your company keep releasing Everest contents and push all to test in BG. The entire community become beta testers.

    When my company developed a machines learning tools and neural networks system which doesn’t fit the purpose and generate wrong proposal to customer, we simply take it back and resolved it backend instead of asking customers’ toleration for the strange proposals and investment advices. Your team should revert the algorithm back to 1 year ago and your team test those innovated algorithm backend. Rather than teaching the community how AI works and ask everyone to fight Onslaught in BG and experience his quick recovery.
  • NüΚΞNüΚΞ Member Posts: 262 ★★★

    So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever. In the absence of substantive information from Kabam (and this doesn’t count, IMO — “it’s more complicated than you think” or, my true favorite, “be careful what you ask for”), there’s nothing to do but complain and / or speculate.

    Since the overlords don’t like speculation, here’s a general complaint: the game is less fun than it used to be. From the cheap seats, it seems like you have AI problems, champ design problems, and saga / meta problems. If you can’t fix the game mechanics, maybe improve the other stuff. Stay away from brutal defenders or ridiculously complex champs for a while. Create saga champ pools with more fun options. Do your best to ensure the next AW meta is less annoying than this one. Have enough foresight to avoid a BG meta like Crit Me when you know the “AI” is in a state that makes intercepting particularly frustrating. Use all the other tools at your disposal if your hands are tied with the AI. Make the game more fun. (And please, stop with these side quest designs.)

    In a lot of ways with what Kabam Crashed has said about a potential timeline I think you really are close to some kind of answer. If they can’t fix it quickly due to all the complexities explained by crashed and others then they need to be very careful about all events in the works until they can make some serious headway on a positive resolution to the Ai or coding or whatever the main issue is. Having this level of demoralizing gameplay in a game really defeats the purpose for many.
  • kvirrkvirr Member Posts: 447 ★★★
    Tbh, out of a lot of people on forums, you come up some with the most interesting discussions and long threads, thx for keeping me entertained lol
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,575 ★★★★★
    Eakomo said:

    DNA3000 said:

    So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever.

    Since that can only be directed at me, I'll respond directly and say that is a horrible mischaracterization. As I've said repeatedly, no player needs to know how the game works to provide feedback on the game itself. They can simply state what they see.

    But when those complaints start commenting on what the problem is, how simple it should be to fix, and how incompetent or conspiratorial the dev team must be to fail to solve it quickly, then yes, I'll "punch down" on all the idiots making those kinds of assumptions with absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

    If you just want to provide feedback about the game, which is what most players should be doing, have at it. I will challenge you to find a single post where I criticized a player for either providing an observation, or articulating what they felt was an issue with the game, whether I disagreed with it or not. But if you're going to make comments about how the game works, how game development works, or how any of these problems ought to be fixed, you should actually know what you're talking about.

    Talk about what you do know. If you see a problem with the game, describe it. That can only be helpful. But you don't know anything about how the game works. You don't know anything about how the AI works, or how the game processes events, or how game development teams work, or how Unity works, or how legacy systems integration works, so don't make statements about any of those things that anyone competent in any of them cringe when they read. Or at least take the time to learn first before opining.

    No one has the right to be wrong, no matter how frustrated they are.
    how are the players not supposed to know how the game works?, especially those who have been playing for more than at least 2 years.

    because we don't know how the game is programmed or what packages they use doesn't mean we can't "observe" and compare what the game provides us to what can be better.

    and with the AI problems, it's only recently that kabam has actually decided to accept the problems on the issue, if it was 3+ years ago and you complained about a interaction and even sent video as long as someone testing couldn't recreate it, it doesn't exist. How would they be able to reliably recreate it when the entire system is fully randomized.

    tldr: you can't belittle others who don't necessary have the knowledge and skills for their suggestions on the game, many science and technology discoveries weren't done by those who are specialists in the field
    The problem is there are a good number of armchair devs and people who simply make blanket statements like "Do better."....."Fix it."...."It can't be that hard."....etc., and they scarcely have the understanding of the complexity and processes required to fix issues. Issues vary. They are not always replicated because there are a myriad of devices and other variables that go into the specifics. It's not always enough for us to commonly encounter a problem. They have to identify the cause internally.
    Then there's the fact that whatever possible fix is implemented needs to minimize compounding issues. Now, there are times where fixes need to be concocted immediately and they are less than ideal, such as emergencies or leaks or exploits. Those are times where their hand is forced for an immediate response. This isn't so much picking and choosing as it is triage. It's their job to fix holes before they become more major.
    I don't believe anyone is implying that people who are proficient at playing the game know nothing about it. That doesn't automatically make them experts at programming, or programming this game specifically. Of course people are always encouraged to offer feedback. The problem is, everyone seems to be an expert when things are rarely that simple.
  • EakomoEakomo Member Posts: 135

    Eakomo said:

    DNA3000 said:

    So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever.

    Since that can only be directed at me, I'll respond directly and say that is a horrible mischaracterization. As I've said repeatedly, no player needs to know how the game works to provide feedback on the game itself. They can simply state what they see.

    But when those complaints start commenting on what the problem is, how simple it should be to fix, and how incompetent or conspiratorial the dev team must be to fail to solve it quickly, then yes, I'll "punch down" on all the idiots making those kinds of assumptions with absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

    If you just want to provide feedback about the game, which is what most players should be doing, have at it. I will challenge you to find a single post where I criticized a player for either providing an observation, or articulating what they felt was an issue with the game, whether I disagreed with it or not. But if you're going to make comments about how the game works, how game development works, or how any of these problems ought to be fixed, you should actually know what you're talking about.

    Talk about what you do know. If you see a problem with the game, describe it. That can only be helpful. But you don't know anything about how the game works. You don't know anything about how the AI works, or how the game processes events, or how game development teams work, or how Unity works, or how legacy systems integration works, so don't make statements about any of those things that anyone competent in any of them cringe when they read. Or at least take the time to learn first before opining.

    No one has the right to be wrong, no matter how frustrated they are.
    how are the players not supposed to know how the game works?, especially those who have been playing for more than at least 2 years.

    because we don't know how the game is programmed or what packages they use doesn't mean we can't "observe" and compare what the game provides us to what can be better.

    and with the AI problems, it's only recently that kabam has actually decided to accept the problems on the issue, if it was 3+ years ago and you complained about a interaction and even sent video as long as someone testing couldn't recreate it, it doesn't exist. How would they be able to reliably recreate it when the entire system is fully randomized.

    tldr: you can't belittle others who don't necessary have the knowledge and skills for their suggestions on the game, many science and technology discoveries weren't done by those who are specialists in the field
    The problem is there are a good number of armchair devs and people who simply make blanket statements like "Do better."....."Fix it."...."It can't be that hard."....etc., and they scarcely have the understanding of the complexity and processes required to fix issues. Issues vary. They are not always replicated because there are a myriad of devices and other variables that go into the specifics. It's not always enough for us to commonly encounter a problem. They have to identify the cause internally.
    Then there's the fact that whatever possible fix is implemented needs to minimize compounding issues. Now, there are times where fixes need to be concocted immediately and they are less than ideal, such as emergencies or leaks or exploits. Those are times where their hand is forced for an immediate response. This isn't so much picking and choosing as it is triage. It's their job to fix holes before they become more major.
    I don't believe anyone is implying that people who are proficient at playing the game know nothing about it. That doesn't automatically make them experts at programming, or programming this game specifically. Of course people are always encouraged to offer feedback. The problem is, everyone seems to be an expert when things are rarely that simple.
    now i'm not talking about making the entire solution and code required to solve the problem.
    in addition we don't need to know how complex or simple the Ai system is to see it has a problem, or that the solution is in a particular direction.

    They are not always replicated because there are a myriad of devices and other variables that go into the specifics. It's not always enough for us to commonly encounter a problem. They have to identify the cause internally.

    putting aside other areas that can get problems that are easy to see and replicate such as visual effects, assets, wording and other parts. the AI, which crashed also said is a fully random system is a terrible design for replicating issues. random systems are not known for reliably giving you an output to an input so being able to replicate things unless fully broken is by luck.

    Then there's the fact that whatever possible fix is implemented needs to minimize compounding issues. Now, there are times where fixes need to be concocted immediately and they are less than ideal, such as emergencies or leaks or exploits. Those are times where their hand is forced for an immediate response. This isn't so much picking and choosing as it is triage. It's their job to fix holes before they become more major.
    I don't believe anyone is implying that people who are proficient at playing the game know nothing about it. That doesn't automatically make them experts at programming, or programming this game specifically. Of course people are always encouraged to offer feedback. The problem is, everyone seems to be an expert when things are rarely that simple.

    AI issues now are no more leaking holes, but now an entire wall being missing in the house. you wouldn't expect to have a huge hole in your walls and leave it like that for months.
    It should no more be about patching holes every couple of months when a solution breaks the systems again.
    At this point it would be much better to have a new reliable AI system than constantly fix the broken one every time
  • SmasherM86SmasherM86 Member Posts: 79

    NüΚΞ said:

    @kabam Crashed I know you are just responding and I don’t want this to seem like a personal attack but I believe the situation is dire. Everyone is talking about the ai. Even the CCP who typically side steps the ai or casually mentions it is complaining openly. Months to fix is something many of us have heard here on the forums many of times. It has become a point of frustration and easy to disregard as another false promise

    Don't worry, I don't take it as a personal attack. I know you and others are frustrated, and you have a right to be.

    The info DNA has shared in this thread is important, not because everybody needs to know how the AI works, but because I think players should know what we are actually talking about when we say "AI". "Fixing" it isn't easy, because it's not "broken", it's just different. In a rhythm fighting game, different is a problem. Players learned one thing, now it's at least in some cases another. And it was not an intentional change that caused this discrepancy. If we could simply set the AI to work like it did 2 years ago we would, but we can't.

    And just to be clear, DNA basically said this already, but I want to reiterate. The AI doesn't know what a parry is, it doesn't know what a dex is, it doesn't know what an intercept is. So we can't just tell it "light intercept less" because it doesn't know what that means. It's a weighted random number generator that is happening to roll light attack at the moment it needs to to intercept you. As the community has seen, any "fix" has consequences. So if we are able to set the AI to not roll light attack in those situations, it still has to do something. And what that something is might end up being even more frustrating.

    There has been a group that has been working to address these issues already for months. We aren't taking it lightly, but I want to be reasonable about expectations here. We are committed to resolving these issues but it's probably the hardest thing to "fix" that the team has ever been faced with, because the system we are working with wasn't designed with any real intention for these situations that are very relevant to the modern MCoC experience.
    Yeah, You broken it super hard, but sure you can reduce its speed and delete the super annoying profiles, right ?!
  • SyndicatedSyndicated Member Posts: 661 ★★★
    I just want to know something, BGS GC is a Hidden PVP mode?

    Because i can't explain why AI is really broken, how AI can do instant recover after eating sps?

    How AI can backdraft intercept in that way?

    How AI can self corner and avoid sp throw?
  • SearmenisSearmenis Member Posts: 1,628 ★★★★★
    Let's make a poll, how many "Top players" (aka top whales) would mind a temporary back step if it's crucial to get a permanent fix in all this mess? Because from what I hear and see, most of them are as pissed off as the rest of the playerbase, they also struggle in GC and try to find a little fun.

    Btw, didn't Kabam stopped using Unity a year or so ago?
  • SecondSkrillerSecondSkriller Member Posts: 1,319 ★★★★★

    Having two accounts means i could play GC and VT at the same time for comparison. They legit knew that it was intercept meta and purposely:

    Gave - Us - Passive - AI.

    LOL

    This comment is pretty instructive because it demonstrates the cycle we are in right now where frustration has led to confirmation bias and it has really taken over.

    I understand conspiracy theories that we are making AI deliberately harder in content like Summer of Suffering. They aren't true, every SoS fight has had the same AI profile, but I understand why players might think they are true. Harder AI in Everest content = harder fights = more consumables used = theoretically more money for us, at least in the short term.

    However the community should be able to take as step back and realize none of those incentives exist for us in Battlegrounds. In Battlegrounds, the more players play, the better it is for our business. The idea that we would deliberately create a harder or more frustrating AI simply doesn't hold water. We have not, the exact same AI profile is applied to both the VT and GC this season. Any perceived difference is just confirmation bias.

    Just to be clear, I'm not saying there are no problems with the AI. I personally believe we have some substantial issues we need to address, and I'm hoping we can communicate them more effectively in the coming months. But I can tell you definitively that we aren't making harder AI profiles to target specific metas.
    Then address those damn AI issues with higher priority we’re all done with the game mode at this point. This is the anniversary event and everyone hates it. Stop allowing this stupid AI to light intercept ANYTHING. It is not fun getting input read EVER.
  • peixemacacopeixemacaco Member Posts: 3,085 ★★★★

    NüΚΞ said:

    @kabam Crashed I know you are just responding and I don’t want this to seem like a personal attack but I believe the situation is dire. Everyone is talking about the ai. Even the CCP who typically side steps the ai or casually mentions it is complaining openly. Months to fix is something many of us have heard here on the forums many of times. It has become a point of frustration and easy to disregard as another false promise

    Don't worry, I don't take it as a personal attack. I know you and others are frustrated, and you have a right to be.

    The info DNA has shared in this thread is important, not because everybody needs to know how the AI works, but because I think players should know what we are actually talking about when we say "AI". "Fixing" it isn't easy, because it's not "broken", it's just different. In a rhythm fighting game, different is a problem. Players learned one thing, now it's at least in some cases another. And it was not an intentional change that caused this discrepancy. If we could simply set the AI to work like it did 2 years ago we would, but we can't.

    And just to be clear, DNA basically said this already, but I want to reiterate. The AI doesn't know what a parry is, it doesn't know what a dex is, it doesn't know what an intercept is. So we can't just tell it "light intercept less" because it doesn't know what that means. It's a weighted random number generator that is happening to roll light attack at the moment it needs to to intercept you. As the community has seen, any "fix" has consequences. So if we are able to set the AI to not roll light attack in those situations, it still has to do something. And what that something is might end up being even more frustrating.

    There has been a group that has been working to address these issues already for months. We aren't taking it lightly, but I want to be reasonable about expectations here. We are committed to resolving these issues but it's probably the hardest thing to "fix" that the team has ever been faced with, because the system we are working with wasn't designed with any real intention for these situations that are very relevant to the modern MCoC experience.
    So....
    People dont understand about A.I. behaviour

    Instead of AI knowing that you dexed or parried, there is a random chances that a special will be thrown or any other Cpu moves.

    We can imagine that program line=

    {If at 2.7 power bar}
    Then <5>random<9> release Sp3

    Because the A.I. may know that in next moment the power bar will reach 3

    So, the numbers increase as the power bar reaches 3....

    But.....

    It's not certain that Cpu will throw sp3

    Maybe on some critical quests as WoW or SoS the numbers are different and the CPU hold Sp.3 ,so the quest as the name is will be harder.

  • HungaryHippoHungaryHippo Member Posts: 1,057 ★★★★

    NüΚΞ said:

    @kabam Crashed I know you are just responding and I don’t want this to seem like a personal attack but I believe the situation is dire. Everyone is talking about the ai. Even the CCP who typically side steps the ai or casually mentions it is complaining openly. Months to fix is something many of us have heard here on the forums many of times. It has become a point of frustration and easy to disregard as another false promise

    Don't worry, I don't take it as a personal attack. I know you and others are frustrated, and you have a right to be.

    The info DNA has shared in this thread is important, not because everybody needs to know how the AI works, but because I think players should know what we are actually talking about when we say "AI". "Fixing" it isn't easy, because it's not "broken", it's just different. In a rhythm fighting game, different is a problem. Players learned one thing, now it's at least in some cases another. And it was not an intentional change that caused this discrepancy. If we could simply set the AI to work like it did 2 years ago we would, but we can't.

    And just to be clear, DNA basically said this already, but I want to reiterate. The AI doesn't know what a parry is, it doesn't know what a dex is, it doesn't know what an intercept is. So we can't just tell it "light intercept less" because it doesn't know what that means. It's a weighted random number generator that is happening to roll light attack at the moment it needs to to intercept you. As the community has seen, any "fix" has consequences. So if we are able to set the AI to not roll light attack in those situations, it still has to do something. And what that something is might end up being even more frustrating.

    There has been a group that has been working to address these issues already for months. We aren't taking it lightly, but I want to be reasonable about expectations here. We are committed to resolving these issues but it's probably the hardest thing to "fix" that the team has ever been faced with, because the system we are working with wasn't designed with any real intention for these situations that are very relevant to the modern MCoC experience.
    So....
    People dont understand about A.I. behaviour

    Instead of AI knowing that you dexed or parried, there is a random chances that a special will be thrown or any other Cpu moves.

    We can imagine that program line=

    {If at 2.7 power bar}
    Then <5>random<9> release Sp3

    Because the A.I. may know that in next moment the power bar will reach 3

    So, the numbers increase as the power bar reaches 3....

    But.....

    It's not certain that Cpu will throw sp3

    Maybe on some critical quests as WoW or SoS the numbers are different and the CPU hold Sp.3 ,so the quest as the name is will be harder.

    Regardless of how they generate the random action, the buffer time in which it cannot take an action is the real problem most likely. An easy way to see is how quickly it throws it's SP3 when it has it. If 1/4 of a second (250ms) is the normal human reaction speed, then with the game able to throw it's SP3 before the screen updates at 30fps, the AI is making frame perfect decisions at 33ms or faster.

    So it appears to be a matter of choice. Either they buffer how quickly the game can react or they keep it ludicrously fast while teaching the AI to parry (look for a normal move and when it would strike and parry within the window), then purposely nerf it.
  • WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Member Posts: 1,471 ★★★
    Slig said:

    I’ve lost several BG matches in the last day due to the exact issues mentioned here.

    I’m glad Kabam is working on a fix, but what does that do for those of us grinding for the deathless piece, etc.?

    I mean by that logic some people going for the deathless pieces won matches because of the lag lmao
  • DarkNightRiseDarkNightRise Member Posts: 386 ★★★

    So, to sum up guys.

    In Kabam own *altered* words: duck you, we're 'working' on it, this might help, it might hinder we'll see 🤷‍♂️ I'll get back to you in 6-60 months, but for now keep getting your ass kicked by our duck ups, we won't do anything in anyway to make this slightly more bareable at all. Oh and it's even though we ducked it, it's not our fault bye 🫡

    Honestly, Kabam managed to excited the community for the BG season, crita meta, realm event and then royally DUCK IT UP

    Ai is ****, its been **** for years and yet it gets progressively worse every update.

    And Kabam said as long as you guys keep spending , you can talk or complain whatever you want lol
This discussion has been closed.