I'm surprised there aren't any more comments on this. Thanks to those that did leave valuable input! Don't have to necessarily agree with me but present a valid reason for it that makes sense. I know money is a factor. I know the only benefit for us is on war defense, already. I realize act 5 was pretty much built around scaled and nearly unavoidable damage. It wouldn't be an easy change, for sure, but it makes so much sense in line with the healing nerf. The same reasoning applies to both.
Although I'm not a big fan of unavoidable damage myself, but I read this somewhere and I agreed somewhat to the argument the person made.
Basically he said that as we play the game more, our skill keeps on getting better and after a while most of the people master the game's mechanics. I mean it's just a matter of swipes and taps. Some people are better at certain things like intercepts etc, but you don't NEED to do much intercepting if you're good at parrying in most cases (other than LoL, stun immune nodes etc)
Then no matter how much they increase the health and other stats of the enemies, people just run through them without any problems. So the only way to try to hinder the players is the unavoidable damage sources like Dorm, Magik, Iceman, Mephisto, Degen nodes etc.
As long as it's not too much of a BS, like the original Ice Phoenix, I'm okay with fighting a couple dorms and magiks here and there. And I think Kabam knows this, I mean they reduced the sig levels of Dorms, Magiks and Icemen in 5.4 to a very low one, while almost all other opponents have sig lvl 200 abilities.
@Superman69 Thank you for your insightful post. I'm not sure any previous posters actually made that argument...at least not in a well-outlined way as you did. I do want to highlight tho, again, that the focus of this post is on eliminating the scaling of degeneration and like debuffs (which includes bleeds, poisons, incineration, etc.) to the buffs of a node. The unavoidable damage topic itself was really a side note and, while I am also not a fan of it, I can see why it's there. I would, however, like to see it not scale to node buffs, making the fight more fair for all players. I agree that there are players out there who seem to steam-roll over everything, but if you have the highest possible champs and some skill, well, that makes sense. However, I find that a lot of even players with high champs struggle with the top challenges. Players without the top champs even more so.
You mentioned that the sig levels were lowered for the degen champs. It is not really an adequate adjustment and only reinforces my point, in my opinion, because Kabam must have thought that some adjustment was needed for the same reasons I'm arguing that debuffs should not scale.
In any case, I appreciate your insight and welcome your thoughts.
@Vegeta9001 I can't help but agree. I think if they just globally made none of those things scale, it would fix things. But instead, they just do regen and then have to keep trying to compensate for everything else with low sig levels and other things. I'm all for simplicity...but hey, that's me...
I believe something like this would help greatly when it comes to Magik's limbo. Everyone wants MD to stop occurring when they use dexterity because it is such an essential skill to have, but i don't think Kabam will change that. At least if the limbo damage did not scale, people would have much less of a problem in general with Magik, I think.
I agree, @marvel_vs_capcom17 . That does seem counterintuitive to do a "perfect fight" and still die. Who did you fight him with? I imagine you have the dexterity mastery? What was his remaining health at the end of the fight?
The thing about unavoidable damage is that isn't really...unavoidable. (for the most part)
Looking at Dormammu, the degeneration triggered when buffs expire on his opponent. Looking at the class relationship wheel, this makes complete sense that Dormammu would be a counter to the buff heavy Cosmic class. Therefore you would think a champion that has 0 buffs would have no problem with fighting Dormammu. However, with masteries, now every champion has an opportunity to trigger a buff due to dexterity. This is a problem with the mastery Mystic Dispersion but that's a whole different topic...
So why are you proccing dexterity against Dormammu? If I had to guess it is because you are trying to bait and dodge special attacks. So if you completely power locked Dormammu he wouldn't ever reach his special attacks, so you wouldn't need to bait and dodge them, triggering your dexterity mastery and thus triggering Dormammu's degeneration. The thing is though, is that not everyone has or brings the champions that can do this, champions like OG Vision, Magik, Dormammu himself, and maybe one or 2 other champions. Power control champions exist in the game, but power shutdown champions are rare and valuable in scenarios like this.
So where am I going with this? People ask for difficulty increases and avoiding scenarios like proccing Dormammu's degeneration but what exactly is an increase in difficulty? Nodes that increase health by 300%? attack by 250%? Most people that complain about these aspects just want their fights to be a cycle of : do a 5 hit combo, dodge enemy specials, use your special, rinse and repeat until the enemy is KO'ed. Difficulty should be a change of strategy, different applications of different champions which is what champions like Dormammu, Mephisto, and Spider-Man challenge the player to do. Archangel shouldn't be the answer to all the fights, Scarlet Witch shouldn't be the answer to all fights. No champion should be the answer to all fights. Stressing ALL FIGHTS. Champions should excel in certain fights, AA has specific and game changing advantages against certain matchups.
But wait... I'm sure you're thinking. You just said that power shutdown champions are rare, what the hell am I supposed to do? This is a hard question, and unfortunately I don't have a real good answer except for "Wait". The biggest balancing problem with Mystic champions is that there hasn't been enough good counters against them. You would think, based off the class relationship wheel, that Science champions would have some kind of counter to Mystic abilities, but they don't. I'm sorry but adding "Incinerate Immunity" isn't going to make Red Hulk a mystic champion killer. The lack of science counters has gone on since the game started and has only been more prominent. But Kabam is trying... Captain America and Ant-Man's fatigue stop Mordo's evade, and Void's power gain reversal, but it's a slow process. Wouldn't it be cool if Sentry, with the signature ability called "molecular reformation" could be immune to degeneration? But alas we have Blade now for all those mystics, not real appropriate in terms of the class relationship wheel but the fact that Blade is a great counter for mystics is the reason why he is so powerful.
Anyways, I strongly encourage players to diversify their roster, Kabam is making science improvements but it is just going to take a while.
Really great points, @Nuggetman777 . Really love your insights on this.
It's easy to see how the original intention of this conversation would get lost, but unavoidable damage is really a secondary topic. While I'm not a big fan of the unavoidable damage, I'm OK with how it is, but I would love to see those things not scale with buffed nodes and have it match the change they made to regeneration. What are your thoughts on the scaling? If they change regeneration to not scale with the nodes, doesn't it make sense to also not scale the rest of the buffs and debuffs? That's more of what I have an issue with.
I agree with the OP but not 100%. I think unavoidable DoT debuffs should not scale with Nodes whereas those that can be inflicted and/or avoided should scale with the nodes. I don't think DoT debuffs should be removed entirely.. No. That's not a good idea. In that case might as well scrap Regen too entirely.
As for Dorm. He's a pain but his problem is with dexterity and dexterity mastery needs to be changed slightly. That's what I think. I think the crit rate buff from dexterity should be changed to a passive type buff. That way, no mystic dispersion, no dorm dorm madness.
Fair enough, @Neroa65 . When posting this, I did mean the scaling to cover all DoT debuffs, but your opinion on the inflicted versus less or un-avoidable is definitely noted and valid.
It definitely makes sense and would benefit the players. So it'll probably never happen.
And to be clear, I don't have a problem with unavoidable damage, but the fact that it isn't scaled the same way that regen is doesn't make any sense.
The only other option would be to provide a champion who is immune to unavoidable damage. We have poison immune champs and bleed immune and incinerate immume...Why not a couple of champs who can only be damaged by physical contact?
@Brew_Swayne
"And to be clear, I don't have a problem with unavoidable damage, but the fact that it isn't scaled the same way that regen is doesn't make any sense."
That's actually the main point of this post and i COMPLETELY agree. The unavoidable damage is a side thing, and in most cases, unavoidable is debatable.
One can only assume that they do this for profit purposes. Forcing players to play other arenas or quests and encouraging monetary purchases for those things.
I disagree with this.
Firstly if we are talking about avoidable damage debuffs it's as simple as being skilled enough to avoid the debuffs. Dorms degen don't proc dexterity. Instead evade his sp1 early since it is easy to avoid without dexterity. Magiks limbo has multiple ways to prevent it through AAR. Mephisto aura keep distance when it's up and power control to keep him low on power.
2ndly for unavoidable damage such as Iceman cold snap. Also considered skill involved since you then lose some HP but you can still fight him in a way to not lose any more through evading and intercepting.
Not sure there is another completely unavoidable Debuff in the game.
In terms of willpower with spectre compared to dorms degen. The difference is spectre is an active debuff hence some champs can shrug it off. Where as dorms degen is the only passive degen I know of in game.
And before anyone claims I'm just another high level player saying get good I'm not. I don't have a r4/55 5* I haven't done anything story mode past 5.2 and struggles against this month's EQ.
So just an average player who thinks that instead of finding something to complain about learn to adapt to it and overcome it. The challange is what makes this game fun and debuffs scaling is part of that challenge.
@Patchie93, Thank you for your thoughts, but I do think you got a bit off-topic in your comment...
The point of the post is NOT THAT THERE SHOULDN'T BE Unavoidable Damage, it's that the Damage over time debuffs, just like healing, SHOULD NOT SCALE TO NODE BUFFS. There really should be consistency and it would be better for the game overall, especially in long quest lines.
I say this because all but your last sentence does not address the scaling.
But...I will now try to address your points.
1) It's really not all being skilled enough to avoid the debuffs. Sometimes you can, and sometimes you can't. Sometimes you incur the debuff to not incur something worse. I am aware of all the ways to avoid the ones you can.
2) I get that it's considered skill to survive with the lower health, but what about losing all that health for the rest of your quest line? For one fight, it's fine...but you can't expect to play perfectly all the time and not take any other damage at all, no matter how good you are.
3) It's great that some champs can shrug debuffs off, but again that comes down to what champs you have and if they do.
I would just like to see consistency between what was done for healing as well as debuffs. I think debuffs that are unavoidable or incurred by making a single mistake that kill you very quickly are not in the best interest of the game. Certainly, it's a challenge, and I like challenges...but this kind is not enjoyable for many.
Comments
Basically he said that as we play the game more, our skill keeps on getting better and after a while most of the people master the game's mechanics. I mean it's just a matter of swipes and taps. Some people are better at certain things like intercepts etc, but you don't NEED to do much intercepting if you're good at parrying in most cases (other than LoL, stun immune nodes etc)
Then no matter how much they increase the health and other stats of the enemies, people just run through them without any problems. So the only way to try to hinder the players is the unavoidable damage sources like Dorm, Magik, Iceman, Mephisto, Degen nodes etc.
As long as it's not too much of a BS, like the original Ice Phoenix, I'm okay with fighting a couple dorms and magiks here and there. And I think Kabam knows this, I mean they reduced the sig levels of Dorms, Magiks and Icemen in 5.4 to a very low one, while almost all other opponents have sig lvl 200 abilities.
You mentioned that the sig levels were lowered for the degen champs. It is not really an adequate adjustment and only reinforces my point, in my opinion, because Kabam must have thought that some adjustment was needed for the same reasons I'm arguing that debuffs should not scale.
In any case, I appreciate your insight and welcome your thoughts.
Looking at Dormammu, the degeneration triggered when buffs expire on his opponent. Looking at the class relationship wheel, this makes complete sense that Dormammu would be a counter to the buff heavy Cosmic class. Therefore you would think a champion that has 0 buffs would have no problem with fighting Dormammu. However, with masteries, now every champion has an opportunity to trigger a buff due to dexterity. This is a problem with the mastery Mystic Dispersion but that's a whole different topic...
So why are you proccing dexterity against Dormammu? If I had to guess it is because you are trying to bait and dodge special attacks. So if you completely power locked Dormammu he wouldn't ever reach his special attacks, so you wouldn't need to bait and dodge them, triggering your dexterity mastery and thus triggering Dormammu's degeneration. The thing is though, is that not everyone has or brings the champions that can do this, champions like OG Vision, Magik, Dormammu himself, and maybe one or 2 other champions. Power control champions exist in the game, but power shutdown champions are rare and valuable in scenarios like this.
So where am I going with this? People ask for difficulty increases and avoiding scenarios like proccing Dormammu's degeneration but what exactly is an increase in difficulty? Nodes that increase health by 300%? attack by 250%? Most people that complain about these aspects just want their fights to be a cycle of : do a 5 hit combo, dodge enemy specials, use your special, rinse and repeat until the enemy is KO'ed. Difficulty should be a change of strategy, different applications of different champions which is what champions like Dormammu, Mephisto, and Spider-Man challenge the player to do. Archangel shouldn't be the answer to all the fights, Scarlet Witch shouldn't be the answer to all fights. No champion should be the answer to all fights. Stressing ALL FIGHTS. Champions should excel in certain fights, AA has specific and game changing advantages against certain matchups.
But wait... I'm sure you're thinking. You just said that power shutdown champions are rare, what the hell am I supposed to do? This is a hard question, and unfortunately I don't have a real good answer except for "Wait". The biggest balancing problem with Mystic champions is that there hasn't been enough good counters against them. You would think, based off the class relationship wheel, that Science champions would have some kind of counter to Mystic abilities, but they don't. I'm sorry but adding "Incinerate Immunity" isn't going to make Red Hulk a mystic champion killer. The lack of science counters has gone on since the game started and has only been more prominent. But Kabam is trying... Captain America and Ant-Man's fatigue stop Mordo's evade, and Void's power gain reversal, but it's a slow process. Wouldn't it be cool if Sentry, with the signature ability called "molecular reformation" could be immune to degeneration? But alas we have Blade now for all those mystics, not real appropriate in terms of the class relationship wheel but the fact that Blade is a great counter for mystics is the reason why he is so powerful.
Anyways, I strongly encourage players to diversify their roster, Kabam is making science improvements but it is just going to take a while.
It's easy to see how the original intention of this conversation would get lost, but unavoidable damage is really a secondary topic. While I'm not a big fan of the unavoidable damage, I'm OK with how it is, but I would love to see those things not scale with buffed nodes and have it match the change they made to regeneration. What are your thoughts on the scaling? If they change regeneration to not scale with the nodes, doesn't it make sense to also not scale the rest of the buffs and debuffs? That's more of what I have an issue with.
I actually posted another topic long ago on the Mystic dispersion issue...lol. Feel free to check that out.
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/7837/mystic-dispersion-suggested-change#latest
As for Dorm. He's a pain but his problem is with dexterity and dexterity mastery needs to be changed slightly. That's what I think. I think the crit rate buff from dexterity should be changed to a passive type buff. That way, no mystic dispersion, no dorm dorm madness.
And to be clear, I don't have a problem with unavoidable damage, but the fact that it isn't scaled the same way that regen is doesn't make any sense.
The only other option would be to provide a champion who is immune to unavoidable damage. We have poison immune champs and bleed immune and incinerate immume...Why not a couple of champs who can only be damaged by physical contact?
Scale it back or give us an effective counter.
"And to be clear, I don't have a problem with unavoidable damage, but the fact that it isn't scaled the same way that regen is doesn't make any sense."
That's actually the main point of this post and i COMPLETELY agree. The unavoidable damage is a side thing, and in most cases, unavoidable is debatable.
This discussion is focus on WHETHER OR NOT DEBUFFS SHOULD SCALE TO NODE BUFFS. Just to be very clear
One can only assume that they do this for profit purposes. Forcing players to play other arenas or quests and encouraging monetary purchases for those things.
Firstly if we are talking about avoidable damage debuffs it's as simple as being skilled enough to avoid the debuffs. Dorms degen don't proc dexterity. Instead evade his sp1 early since it is easy to avoid without dexterity. Magiks limbo has multiple ways to prevent it through AAR. Mephisto aura keep distance when it's up and power control to keep him low on power.
2ndly for unavoidable damage such as Iceman cold snap. Also considered skill involved since you then lose some HP but you can still fight him in a way to not lose any more through evading and intercepting.
Not sure there is another completely unavoidable Debuff in the game.
In terms of willpower with spectre compared to dorms degen. The difference is spectre is an active debuff hence some champs can shrug it off. Where as dorms degen is the only passive degen I know of in game.
And before anyone claims I'm just another high level player saying get good I'm not. I don't have a r4/55 5* I haven't done anything story mode past 5.2 and struggles against this month's EQ.
So just an average player who thinks that instead of finding something to complain about learn to adapt to it and overcome it. The challange is what makes this game fun and debuffs scaling is part of that challenge.
The point of the post is NOT THAT THERE SHOULDN'T BE Unavoidable Damage, it's that the Damage over time debuffs, just like healing, SHOULD NOT SCALE TO NODE BUFFS. There really should be consistency and it would be better for the game overall, especially in long quest lines.
I say this because all but your last sentence does not address the scaling.
But...I will now try to address your points.
1) It's really not all being skilled enough to avoid the debuffs. Sometimes you can, and sometimes you can't. Sometimes you incur the debuff to not incur something worse. I am aware of all the ways to avoid the ones you can.
2) I get that it's considered skill to survive with the lower health, but what about losing all that health for the rest of your quest line? For one fight, it's fine...but you can't expect to play perfectly all the time and not take any other damage at all, no matter how good you are.
3) It's great that some champs can shrug debuffs off, but again that comes down to what champs you have and if they do.
I would just like to see consistency between what was done for healing as well as debuffs. I think debuffs that are unavoidable or incurred by making a single mistake that kill you very quickly are not in the best interest of the game. Certainly, it's a challenge, and I like challenges...but this kind is not enjoyable for many.