Crystal Spin Animation

It's just a random snapshot of possibilities. The roll is predetermined when you click Open or Spin. It doesn't even reflect all possibilities because there are only so many that can fit into the time that it spins. It's not misleading at all. They've said many times the spin doesn't reflect the outcome.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

It's just a random snapshot of possibilities. The roll is predetermined when you click Open or Spin. It doesn't even reflect all possibilities because there are only so many that can fit into the time that it spins. It's not misleading at all. They've said many times the spin doesn't reflect the outcome.

The animation IS massively misleading, and not everyone frequents forums and would be aware how the crystals work. The outcome being predetermined has nothing to do with the fact the animation over represents the number of "jackpots".

EvilEmpire wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

It's just a random snapshot of possibilities. The roll is predetermined when you click Open or Spin. It doesn't even reflect all possibilities because there are only so many that can fit into the time that it spins. It's not misleading at all. They've said many times the spin doesn't reflect the outcome.

The animation IS massively misleading, and not everyone frequents forums and would be aware how the crystals work. The outcome being predetermined has nothing to do with the fact the animation over represents the number of "jackpots".

Sorry you feel that way. However, it would be one thing if they were intentionally misleading people. They've flat out said it doesn't reflect the outcome. That's pretty honest to me. The roll is random and it lands where it lands. There is no comprehensive solution to what you have issue with. It's a window into the possibilities. If they were all 2*'s, that wouldn't be a window into the possibilities. The Crystals are a chance. The 4* Drops are rare. That us clearly explained. Rare means rare. Not every other Crystal.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

EvilEmpire wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

It's just a random snapshot of possibilities. The roll is predetermined when you click Open or Spin. It doesn't even reflect all possibilities because there are only so many that can fit into the time that it spins. It's not misleading at all. They've said many times the spin doesn't reflect the outcome.

The animation IS massively misleading, and not everyone frequents forums and would be aware how the crystals work. The outcome being predetermined has nothing to do with the fact the animation over represents the number of "jackpots".

Sorry you feel that way. However, it would be one thing if they were intentionally misleading people. They've flat out said it doesn't reflect the outcome. That's pretty honest to me. The roll is random and it lands where it lands. There is no comprehensive solution to what you have issue with. It's a window into the possibilities. If they were all 2*'s, that wouldn't be a window into the possibilities. The Crystals are a chance. The 4* Drops are rare. That us clearly explained. Rare means rare. Not every other Crystal.

I dunno what percentage of players you think view game forums but it's low so to say they have "openly" explained it is wrong. The small percentage of long term players all probably do, the masses probably don't. We all know the PHC odds are laughable, don't try and say them flashing 10 4* champs during a spin isnt misleading.

EvilEmpire wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

EvilEmpire wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

It's just a random snapshot of possibilities. The roll is predetermined when you click Open or Spin. It doesn't even reflect all possibilities because there are only so many that can fit into the time that it spins. It's not misleading at all. They've said many times the spin doesn't reflect the outcome.

The animation IS massively misleading, and not everyone frequents forums and would be aware how the crystals work. The outcome being predetermined has nothing to do with the fact the animation over represents the number of "jackpots".

Sorry you feel that way. However, it would be one thing if they were intentionally misleading people. They've flat out said it doesn't reflect the outcome. That's pretty honest to me. The roll is random and it lands where it lands. There is no comprehensive solution to what you have issue with. It's a window into the possibilities. If they were all 2*'s, that wouldn't be a window into the possibilities. The Crystals are a chance. The 4* Drops are rare. That us clearly explained. Rare means rare. Not every other Crystal.

I dunno what percentage of players you think view game forums but it's low so to say they have "openly" explained it is wrong. The small percentage of long term players all probably do, the masses probably don't. We all know the PHC odds are laughable, don't try and say them flashing 10 4* champs during a spin isnt misleading.

That's what makes them rare. Not every roll is going to be a 4*. When you have a series of random possibilities, it's random. It isn't altered to get anyone's hopes up. It doesn't need to be altered to show the actual rates either because it's not planned either way. It's just random possibilities. The argument is subjective. People notice the 4*'s because that's the hope. They don't notice the 2*'s and 3*'s floating by because they're not focused on them. They are in the roll as well.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

It's just a random snapshot of possibilities. The roll is predetermined when you click Open or Spin. It doesn't even reflect all possibilities because there are only so many that can fit into the time that it spins. It's not misleading at all. They've said many times the spin doesn't reflect the outcome.

I should point out that if the crystal spins involved actual money in a gambling machine, they would almost certainly be considered misleading and illegal in the State of Nevada. The specific rule is regulation 14.40 which among other things requires video slot machines to visually represent the actual probability of a particular random event occurring accurately. This specific regulation was used to determine that a process known as "near miss" events is illegal. A near-miss slot machine is programmed to show something that is "close" to a jackpot when the random number generator determines that the player did not win. So like showing two sevens and a blank most of the time when the player loses, rather than the one in a hundred chance that ought to appear on the reels.

In other words, if the crystal spins were a slot machine in Nevada, the law would mandate that the symbols that appear during the spin show up exactly as often as the payout of the system dictated they should show up. When the reels showed 4* champs half the time but we actually got them one out of a hundred, that would almost certainly be ruled illegal.

Yes, Kabam says the visual spins are not representative of the actual odds. That's not in question. The question is whether it is misleading that they are not representative. In my opinion they are. Also, Kabam must know that only a tiny fraction of players read the forums, or even encounter any other player that reads the forums. That's true of all MMOs. If 1% of your players are reading your forums, that's amazing.

As far as I'm aware, MCOC wouldn't currently be classified as a gambling machine and thus is not subject to these regulations. I'm not saying Kabam is breaking the law. But that's also not relevant to the question of whether the crystal spins are misleading to human beings. In other related contexts, they have legally been ruled to be so by entities empowered to protect the public. I consider that to be strong evidence that a reasonable person would find them misleading.

And let's face it: they aren't doing that to better inform the playerbase of the contents of the crystals. That's pushing the boundaries of credulity. They are doing it for the exact same reason slot machine manufacturers tried to employ near-miss results in slot machines: to psychologically imply to the player that the odds of winning were better than they actually are, because they "almost" won.

DNA3000 wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

It's just a random snapshot of possibilities. The roll is predetermined when you click Open or Spin. It doesn't even reflect all possibilities because there are only so many that can fit into the time that it spins. It's not misleading at all. They've said many times the spin doesn't reflect the outcome.

I should point out that if the crystal spins involved actual money in a gambling machine, they would almost certainly be considered misleading and illegal in the State of Nevada. The specific rule is regulation 14.40 which among other things requires video slot machines to visually represent the actual probability of a particular random event occurring accurately. This specific regulation was used to determine that a process known as "near miss" events is illegal. A near-miss slot machine is programmed to show something that is "close" to a jackpot when the random number generator determines that the player did not win. So like showing two sevens and a blank most of the time when the player loses, rather than the one in a hundred chance that ought to appear on the reels.

In other words, if the crystal spins were a slot machine in Nevada, the law would mandate that the symbols that appear during the spin show up exactly as often as the payout of the system dictated they should show up. When the reels showed 4* champs half the time but we actually got them one out of a hundred, that would almost certainly be ruled illegal.

Yes, Kabam says the visual spins are not representative of the actual odds. That's not in question. The question is whether it is misleading that they are not representative. In my opinion they are. Also, Kabam must know that only a tiny fraction of players read the forums, or even encounter any other player that reads the forums. That's true of all MMOs. If 1% of your players are reading your forums, that's amazing.

As far as I'm aware, MCOC wouldn't currently be classified as a gambling machine and thus is not subject to these regulations. I'm not saying Kabam is breaking the law. But that's also not relevant to the question of whether the crystal spins are misleading to human beings. In other related contexts, they have legally been ruled to be so by entities empowered to protect the public. I consider that to be strong evidence that a reasonable person would find them misleading.

And let's face it: they aren't doing that to better inform the playerbase of the contents of the crystals. That's pushing the boundaries of credulity. They are doing it for the exact same reason slot machine manufacturers tried to employ near-miss results in slot machines: to psychologically imply to the player that the odds of winning were better than they actually are, because they "almost" won.

I don't consider it to be misleading when it's a representation of the possibilities, but it's stated that they're rare. That's a chance that people take in spinning them. For that matter, it wouldn't really stop them from opening Crystals.
As for money, there is no returning investment with In-Game Purchases. That's in the fine print (TOS). However, people rarely read that before making purchases. I don't consider the PHC worth investing in myself, simply because of the number available for free.
I think the real issue is the disappointment with the outcomes and not the spin. We're all aware that it is all rare chance. Of course people will get excited when they see 4*'s. However, I think it's less deceptive than that. It's just random possibilities. We attach ourselves to one specific outcome.
The reality I see is that we are all aware of the outcomes of PHC. Changing the spin won't really make a difference. People will still try for what they want. While I do think that a certain amount of it is marketing, simply because no one would be interested if the possibilities weren't enticing, I don't consider it some sort of trap or covert deception. I certainly don't consider it gambling. People won't get the Champ they want unless the RNG rolls it. That won't change regardless of the display.

Eos_Nano_X

I landed the 4* Carnage on the spin. Even opened him up and showed his frame but once the page hit the result/summary screen... **** 3* Cable. Boy was i pissed.
Want an honest opinion? Just hit instant open.
Even Kabam Support will tell you to do it to avoid frustration.

unknown

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ArmandStar wrote: »

if the spin animation showed me a 4* champion half of the time, it should mean the odds of landing on a 4* champion should be 50/50

if the odds of landing on a 4* champion are 10% , then the spin animation should show me a 4* champion in 1 out of 10 prizes

the fact is, the odds are low, and yet they appear far too often on the spin animation. THAT is what people complain about.

the visuals should represent the actual odds more accurately,

That's not how odds work. 10% doesn't mean 1/10 will be a 4*. If the visuals represented the odds, you would never see a 4* because there is not enough time in the spin to represent that. I don't know the specific Drop Rate, but that I am certain of.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

ArmandStar wrote: »

if the spin animation showed me a 4* champion half of the time, it should mean the odds of landing on a 4* champion should be 50/50

if the odds of landing on a 4* champion are 10% , then the spin animation should show me a 4* champion in 1 out of 10 prizes

the fact is, the odds are low, and yet they appear far too often on the spin animation. THAT is what people complain about.

the visuals should represent the actual odds more accurately,

That's not how odds work. 10% doesn't mean 1/10 will be a 4*. If the visuals represented the odds, you would never see a 4* because there is not enough time in the spin to represent that. I don't know the specific Drop Rate, but that I am certain of.

It would be trivial to make the spinner properly represent reality: simply generate the spinner symbols using the same random number generator used to generate the actual crystal contents. That would by definition be 100% accurate all of the time, because that is the very definition of making the spinner show the same odds as the actual crystal opening. They would appear the same, because they would be the same.

DNA3000 wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

ArmandStar wrote: »

if the spin animation showed me a 4* champion half of the time, it should mean the odds of landing on a 4* champion should be 50/50

if the odds of landing on a 4* champion are 10% , then the spin animation should show me a 4* champion in 1 out of 10 prizes

the fact is, the odds are low, and yet they appear far too often on the spin animation. THAT is what people complain about.

the visuals should represent the actual odds more accurately,

That's not how odds work. 10% doesn't mean 1/10 will be a 4*. If the visuals represented the odds, you would never see a 4* because there is not enough time in the spin to represent that. I don't know the specific Drop Rate, but that I am certain of.

It would be trivial to make the spinner properly represent reality: simply generate the spinner symbols using the same random number generator used to generate the actual crystal contents. That would by definition be 100% accurate all of the time, because that is the very definition of making the spinner show the same odds as the actual crystal opening. They would appear the same, because they would be the same.

I'm just saying there is no rhyme or reason to changing the display. I think it stems from the disappointment of the rolls. That won't change the outcome. I feel the same way about the drive to know the actual Drop Rates. I'm sure one could argue that people will make more educated decisions, but it's been my experience that if they want the Champ bad enough, they will try for it. Further to that, the information will most likely be glanced over as the rest is. In terms of PHC, so many are opened on a regular basis that it really won't make a difference regardless because opening Crystals is a part of general gameplay. In terms of Featured Crystals, the main reason people buy them is to get the Champ. Whether the spin reflects the random possibilities as it does, or a specific represenration of the Drop Rates, people will still try. Which brings me to my final thought. It wouldn't come to pass because that in effect would give the Drop Rates and they have stated that the hey have no plans to discuss them. I just don't see the relevance of the spin.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

I'm just saying there is no rhyme or reason to changing the display. I think it stems from the disappointment of the rolls. That won't change the outcome. I feel the same way about the drive to know the actual Drop Rates. I'm sure one could argue that people will make more educated decisions, but it's been my experience that if they want the Champ bad enough, they will try for it. Further to that, the information will most likely be glanced over as the rest is. In terms of PHC, so many are opened on a regular basis that it really won't make a difference regardless because opening Crystals is a part of general gameplay. In terms of Featured Crystals, the main reason people buy them is to get the Champ. Whether the spin reflects the random possibilities as it does, or a specific represenration of the Drop Rates, people will still try. Which brings me to my final thought. It wouldn't come to pass because that in effect would give the Drop Rates and they have stated that the hey have no plans to discuss them. I just don't see the relevance of the spin.

No one is implying that changing the display would change the outcome. They are in fact saying the opposite: the display misleads players looking at the display into believing the odds of drawing a higher rank champ are better than they actually are, because the spinner shows a far higher frequency of 3* and 4* champ than actually exist in the reward table.

I don't know why you don't see the relevance of the spin, but it is sufficiently relevant that it is a deliberate game design tactic that all random lock box designers that display previews exploit. Basically, the game designers believe it is relevant enough to deliberately use the tactic. The game industry believes it is relevant enough to promote it as a design tactic. The gaming industry has enough evidence that it works to ban the tactic. As far as I'm concerned, that's a greater degree of proof that the display is knowingly misleading than the reasonable doubt threshold I was asked to be certain of when serving on jury duty.

Whether Kabam would change the display or not is irrelevant to whether it is problematic. The question was whether the display should more accurately represent the reward table odds. In my opinion they should. And that's mostly because it is not in dispute that the tactic is generally considered unfair manipulation of the customer, in particular by an industry whose entire reason for being is to convince people to take bad bets. When the gaming industry bans a psychological design tactic, that's noteworthy.

I not sure why they even care if we know the drop rates anymore, they are horribly horribly bad. If that's the only reason is to camouflage the odds, players still buy them anyways we wouldn't be shocked to see what we already know.

Whiskey_Poet

EvilEmpire wrote: »

Should the "potential" prizes not be more accurate to what your actually chance is of winning . . . but if you watch the animation they show a bunch of things that virtually never show up . . . Seems like false advertising.

Yes, and in the same manner of thinking, they should not show the top prizes on the front of scratch off lottery tickets, or put signs up that certain people have won a certain amount. Or, we could be adults and realize that things aren't that easy, and also research things if we are spending actual money and valuable time into them. Seriously.

I'm sorry. I disagree. I don't consider it that malicious or deceptive. It's a game. Not a casino. There is no promise of monetary gain. There are possibilities that come up. The outcome is not representative of that. I can't justify claiming they're that sinister about it. It's a chance you take when you roll the Crystals. No one is a victim if they see it in the roll and don't land on it. People have responsibility for their own choices and spending habits. Claiming the Crystals are deceptive is failing to take responsibility for the choice to make a purchase. The entire argument is arbitrary to me. It's claiming the roll has some kind of responsibility for people being disappointed. The outcome is what it is regardless of the roll. When you display some of the possibilities, that's all it is. Just because you see 4*'s in the roll doesn't mean you are being yanked, and it doesn't mean you are entitled to a 4*. That's not directed at anyone specifically. Just the general argument. What you see when the Crystal spins is irrelevant because it lands where it lands, and the choice to buy them is not incumbent on seeing 4*'s in the roll. There are all possibilities in that roll. As many as can be fit. The fact that people focus on one possibility and claim they are deceiving is ludacris to me. The 4*'s are rare (as with any rare Item). That is explained up-front. Really doesn't matter how many possibilities come up in the roll. That's about all I have to say. I'm out. This conversation is a tad too drastic for my taste, considering it's a visual aspect that has no bearing on the outcome. No one is a victim. To me it's like saying, "If I cant have it, don't show it to me.". The fact is, they can be gained because they are possibilities in the RNG. Not every roll will be favorable. No offense to the OP, or anyone. I'm just speaking about the topic in general. It's come up before.

Solswerd

It is a marketing technique, nothing more. I stopped watching the spin a long time ago...why aggravate myself? Those rare times I score an good 4*, I see it instantly. All of the other times I spare myself the pain of seeing the spinner land 1 spot away from a 4* Hyperion. As time goes on, I have learned to stop seeking out things that will irrate me. The only reason I wish the spin would go away is so people will stop posting threads about it.

NinjaWarrior99

i agree it's misleading but the alternative is that spinning any crystal would rarely show anything but the lowest tier prize

Shrimkins

spinning crystals is irrelevant. The champ you get is predetermined as soon as you drop that crystal in the middle.

BitterSteel

People complain when there aren't enough 4* in the spin, people complain when there are too many 4* in the spin. Can't win.

Dave2442

Here is how Crystals work. Right when you claim the crystal it is already determined what champion you will get. The point of flashing the 4* crystal is to show all the possibilities that you could get.

Apache

Dave2442 wrote: »

Here is how Crystals work. Right when you claim the crystal it is already determined what champion you will get. The point of flashing the 4* crystal is to show all the possibilities that you could get.

spinning is pointless, just open and enjoy the champ you were hoping not to get again for the 100th time

Trumpoot

ArmandStar wrote: »

if the spin animation showed me a 4* champion half of the time, it should mean the odds of landing on a 4* champion should be 50/50

if the odds of landing on a 4* champion are 10% , then the spin animation should show me a 4* champion in 1 out of 10 prizes

the fact is, the odds are low, and yet they appear far too often on the spin animation. THAT is what people complain about.

the visuals should represent the actual odds more accurately,

the problem with the visuals representing the actual odds is that the animation would have to be 45 minutes long before they could show you a 4* champion.

Nobody wants that!?!?!

(some slight exaggeration here...i think?? I am on PHC 241 with no 4*, after all...)

Jaffacaked

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

I'm sorry. I disagree. I don't consider it that malicious or deceptive. It's a game. Not a casino. There is no promise of monetary gain. There are possibilities that come up. The outcome is not representative of that. I can't justify claiming they're that sinister about it. It's a chance you take when you roll the Crystals. No one is a victim if they see it in the roll and don't land on it. People have responsibility for their own choices and spending habits. Claiming the Crystals are deceptive is failing to take responsibility for the choice to make a purchase. The entire argument is arbitrary to me. It's claiming the roll has some kind of responsibility for people being disappointed. The outcome is what it is regardless of the roll. When you display some of the possibilities, that's all it is. Just because you see 4*'s in the roll doesn't mean you are being yanked, and it doesn't mean you are entitled to a 4*. That's not directed at anyone specifically. Just the general argument. What you see when the Crystal spins is irrelevant because it lands where it lands, and the choice to buy them is not incumbent on seeing 4*'s in the roll. There are all possibilities in that roll. As many as can be fit. The fact that people focus on one possibility and claim they are deceiving is ludacris to me. The 4*'s are rare (as with any rare Item). That is explained up-front. Really doesn't matter how many possibilities come up in the roll. That's about all I have to say. I'm out. This conversation is a tad too drastic for my taste, considering it's a visual aspect that has no bearing on the outcome. No one is a victim. To me it's like saying, "If I cant have it, don't show it to me.". The fact is, they can be gained because they are possibilities in the RNG. Not every roll will be favorable. No offense to the OP, or anyone. I'm just speaking about the topic in general. It's come up before.

It's downright gambling, the way your one away from a 4* is to get people to spend thinking they will get it next time, that's the whole point of the visual reel, also digital content as a rewards can be classed the same as monetary value, it's actually law in places.

How many times have you said in this forum that you would spend so much going for featured crystals, that's gambling on an outcome to receive digital content.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

I'm sorry. I disagree. I don't consider it that malicious or deceptive. It's a game. Not a casino. There is no promise of monetary gain. There are possibilities that come up. The outcome is not representative of that. I can't justify claiming they're that sinister about it. It's a chance you take when you roll the Crystals. No one is a victim if they see it in the roll and don't land on it. People have responsibility for their own choices and spending habits. Claiming the Crystals are deceptive is failing to take responsibility for the choice to make a purchase. The entire argument is arbitrary to me. It's claiming the roll has some kind of responsibility for people being disappointed. The outcome is what it is regardless of the roll. When you display some of the possibilities, that's all it is. Just because you see 4*'s in the roll doesn't mean you are being yanked, and it doesn't mean you are entitled to a 4*. That's not directed at anyone specifically. Just the general argument. What you see when the Crystal spins is irrelevant because it lands where it lands, and the choice to buy them is not incumbent on seeing 4*'s in the roll. There are all possibilities in that roll. As many as can be fit. The fact that people focus on one possibility and claim they are deceiving is ludacris to me. The 4*'s are rare (as with any rare Item). That is explained up-front. Really doesn't matter how many possibilities come up in the roll. That's about all I have to say. I'm out. This conversation is a tad too drastic for my taste, considering it's a visual aspect that has no bearing on the outcome. No one is a victim. To me it's like saying, "If I cant have it, don't show it to me.". The fact is, they can be gained because they are possibilities in the RNG. Not every roll will be favorable. No offense to the OP, or anyone. I'm just speaking about the topic in general. It's come up before.

You are still framing this as a debate, like I'm trying to present a logical argument for why the near-miss phenomenon might be misleading. I'm not. I am stating the fact that this situation has been studied in psychology, in advertising, in the gaming industry, and in the game design industry, and it has been proven to have the effect I've stated. I'm not trying to argue why it should be considered misleading. I'm stating the fact that it has been scientifically demonstrated to be misleading and psychologically affect participant behavior.

You can choose to accept that scientific evidence, and the fact that the game design industry accepts it as fact and promotes the use of it in game design, or you can choose not to accept it. But you are attempting to argue that gravity doesn't exist.

BitterSteel

It is 100000% gambling.
"to stake or risk money, or anything of value, on the outcome of something involving chance:"
Definition of gambling.
To stake anything of value (units, or even sometimes money when crystals are sold in unit packs etc) on something involving chance, crystals involve chance. Therefore it is gambling. Plain and simple.

Trumpoot wrote: »

ArmandStar wrote: »

if the spin animation showed me a 4* champion half of the time, it should mean the odds of landing on a 4* champion should be 50/50

if the odds of landing on a 4* champion are 10% , then the spin animation should show me a 4* champion in 1 out of 10 prizes

the fact is, the odds are low, and yet they appear far too often on the spin animation. THAT is what people complain about.

the visuals should represent the actual odds more accurately,

the problem with the visuals representing the actual odds is that the animation would have to be 45 minutes long before they could show you a 4* champion.

Nobody wants that!?!?!

(some slight exaggeration here...i think?? I am on PHC 241 with no 4*, after all...)

Slightly. My best guestimate is that the champions fly by at a maximum spin rate of about 5 or 6 champions per second before the reel slows down. I would expect to see a 4* champion every sixteen seconds of spin, although it might fly by too fast to see. When the reels decelerate, you see about twenty five champions that are clearly easy for the eye to track. That means you should see a 4* champ in the decelerating reels about once every four spins.

BitterSteel wrote: »

It is 100000% gambling.
"to stake or risk money, or anything of value, on the outcome of something involving chance:"
Definition of gambling.
To stake anything of value (units, or even sometimes money when crystals are sold in unit packs etc) on something involving chance, crystals involve chance. Therefore it is gambling. Plain and simple.

It may satisfy the dictionary definition of gambling, but it does not satisfy the legal definition of gambling in most places. The dictionary definition of gambling is colloquial, and includes a vast array of activities, and has no derogatory implication as a result. In fact, almost all economic activity technically satisfies the dictionary definition of gambling, because almost no real world activity excludes all elements of chance.

The question is what specific elements of gambling do MMO lockboxes possess, and are those elements themselves something worthy of increased attention. I believe an increasing number of people believe they do. I think the fact that the (US) government stepped in with regard to fantasy football gaming should make F2P game operators just a little nervous. It is not the same thing, but it is not a very long drive there either. Devils' Advocates will point out that the difference is the fact that you cannot (in general) win money or material value from most F2P games. But they are missing the point that the government doesn't step in when people win too much, but rather when they lose too much. And the video game industry has traditionally had laughably weak political defenses to speak of when their industry becomes a political target.

DNA3000 wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

I'm sorry. I disagree. I don't consider it that malicious or deceptive. It's a game. Not a casino. There is no promise of monetary gain. There are possibilities that come up. The outcome is not representative of that. I can't justify claiming they're that sinister about it. It's a chance you take when you roll the Crystals. No one is a victim if they see it in the roll and don't land on it. People have responsibility for their own choices and spending habits. Claiming the Crystals are deceptive is failing to take responsibility for the choice to make a purchase. The entire argument is arbitrary to me. It's claiming the roll has some kind of responsibility for people being disappointed. The outcome is what it is regardless of the roll. When you display some of the possibilities, that's all it is. Just because you see 4*'s in the roll doesn't mean you are being yanked, and it doesn't mean you are entitled to a 4*. That's not directed at anyone specifically. Just the general argument. What you see when the Crystal spins is irrelevant because it lands where it lands, and the choice to buy them is not incumbent on seeing 4*'s in the roll. There are all possibilities in that roll. As many as can be fit. The fact that people focus on one possibility and claim they are deceiving is ludacris to me. The 4*'s are rare (as with any rare Item). That is explained up-front. Really doesn't matter how many possibilities come up in the roll. That's about all I have to say. I'm out. This conversation is a tad too drastic for my taste, considering it's a visual aspect that has no bearing on the outcome. No one is a victim. To me it's like saying, "If I cant have it, don't show it to me.". The fact is, they can be gained because they are possibilities in the RNG. Not every roll will be favorable. No offense to the OP, or anyone. I'm just speaking about the topic in general. It's come up before.

You are still framing this as a debate, like I'm trying to present a logical argument for why the near-miss phenomenon might be misleading. I'm not. I am stating the fact that this situation has been studied in psychology, in advertising, in the gaming industry, and in the game design industry, and it has been proven to have the effect I've stated. I'm not trying to argue why it should be considered misleading. I'm stating the fact that it has been scientifically demonstrated to be misleading and psychologically affect participant behavior.

You can choose to accept that scientific evidence, and the fact that the game design industry accepts it as fact and promotes the use of it in game design, or you can choose not to accept it. But you are attempting to argue that gravity doesn't exist.

I admit. I could have misinterpreted your response. I have very strong views on similar subjects, for example the gambling debate. I apologize. That's why I removed myself from the discussion. I get reactive.