15.0 Alliance Wars Update Discussion Thread

Summoners!

Our 15.0 Update is just about a week away, and with it, it's bringing a huge change to Alliance Wars! Check out everything you need to know about the Brand New Map, Scoring Changes, and new boosts in the Loyalty Store here: http://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/17902/15-0-alliance-wars-update/

Comments

KyrieRed

Crammer2020 wrote: »

KyrieRed wrote: »

JimmyJohnJones wrote: »

Will you be looking at replacing the class detect masteries since they are largely useless now then?

Also, +1 on disagreeing with the removal of defender kills as that was a pretty key strategy element of the war system. In fact, our last war win was a close one that was won in large part because the opponent had 27 more deaths. Seems like a pretty blatant attempt to encourage more spending to revive/heal to win. Will the item caps at least stay in place?

So you won the war based on defender kills. Now the other side of the coin. How do you think the other alliance felt after trying their best to beat your probably 5/5 MD Magik. Let's not be hypocrites. The so called "boss killers" can take a shot at the boss (it doesn't matter if the do poorly or good) because he/she is... well the boss killer while other members have to sit idle because if theytry to fight the boss and don't do good you are helping the other alliance. I'm by any means agreeing with the change because let's be honest here AW will continue to be a cash grab regardless, but also let's be logical you won't be on a at disadvantage because, whoever the alliance you go against, the same rules will apply to them.

Well it is a war, an alliance event. You need to work as a team, working as a team is recognizing that some players are better than others at certain things. When we have AQ and AW up at the same time we usually have one person join war at the end, when his best guys are finished with AQ so he can use them to take out the boss in wars. If you dont want your best boss killer to take the first shot at the boss then you wont be winning too many wars...well...not anymore lol

I know you have some valid points and I'm with ya, skill players will win more wars. But how can average Joe develop skill if every "boss time" is reserved for the "good/boss killer/most skill fingers, etc." players with the "good champions" to fear of losing war because average joe "got a try". Maybe I'm biased because I was that average joe before but still I feel it makes it fair for everyone. Think about AQ mini bosses are fun because if u die that doesn't affect the outcome of AQ if you 100%. I guess that where Kabam got the idea.

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Voluntaris

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Crammer2020 wrote: »

Im pretty sure being vocal about our thoughts on the defender kills issue counts as being constructive. Not sure why so many comments about them being deleted

Oh absolutely. The ones being deleted are not the constructive ones.

Please provide your definition of "constructive" so we're all on the same page.

DrZola

"The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there."

So you actually quit the AW after getting a single champ KO'd? Are we even playing the same game, Miike?

Dr. Zola

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Mightylibra

Kabam Miike wrote: »

NemesisThantos wrote: »

I like how Kabam Miike is ignoring the main point of the posts he is quoting. Removing defender kills makes them more $$$, plain and simple. Just admit it

We have addressed that a few times. As we said, that was not the goal with the change. The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.

Here the quick survey about our Feeling with more than 90% disagreed with your assumption. So, what would you say?

If your truely care about our feeling as you said, please do something about it. Otherwise, you are just another money grabing company that doesn't care about anything but profit. There is nothing wrong with it, really! Just admit it and don't pretend that you care about our feeling.

Archangehell

So for the past year we have been Ranking champs such as Magik, NC, Dorm, Electro, Spidey and Juggy for they Defence capabilities.

And now you're telling us we'll be penalized for not using Diversity and thisnis what the Tie Breaker will be.

Has to be, given you've just made it easier for Ally's to get 100%...with Spend, not Skill of course.

So how is this fair?!?

And what will the compensation be?!?

Because as far as I'm concerned I would never have Ranked Spidey or YJ had I known this, as my BG had enough of them already.

And more fights and a larger Map?
So more Defenders to be placed?
And more Attackers to be used?

We need answers to this ASAP, not more Marketing mumbo jumbo.

At face value, there seems to be some interesting elements.

But dig below the hyperbole - which Kabam isn't very good at, by the way - that's what this is really about.

Continue to skew the Contest toarwards rewarding Skill, not Spend.

gonZ21

Can you explain to us how this benefits the player in any way plz ? So now there is no defender kills which means skill doesn't play a role in wars basically the more you spend the more chances to win ( benefits you guys). 5 mini bosses vs 3 ( benefits you guys). Same rewards as before ( benefits you guys ). I mean plz any admin please tell me if Iam wrong and how ???

Timone147

Kabam Miike wrote: »

NemesisThantos wrote: »

I like how Kabam Miike is ignoring the main point of the posts he is quoting. Removing defender kills makes them more $$$, plain and simple. Just admit it

We have addressed that a few times. As we said, that was not the goal with the change. The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.

Trying to stay positive but this seems like a stretch to justify this move. In all the wars I have played l across many tiers(these days t2) over the last year rarely have I seen someone not KO there whole team for this reason unless at boss and no chance to down.

Usually when this happens it look more like they or a teammate was unable to return for the end.

Really doubtful that this happens often where people fight someone and just give up based off personal experience. Even in current AW one kill and node is worth more than 3 deaths I believe or at least equivalent in points and usually also frees up exploration so large majority go for it.

Juggerneyks

Well im at warning level 2 for my acct, guess i will refrain from posting my negative opinion on this for fear of defcon 3 and nuclear war. LETS MAKE KABAM GREAT AGAIN!

Slux83

Kabam Miike wrote: »

NemesisThantos wrote: »

I like how Kabam Miike is ignoring the main point of the posts he is quoting. Removing defender kills makes them more $$$, plain and simple. Just admit it

We have addressed that a few times. As we said, that was not the goal with the change. The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.

Sorry to say this but you just showed us that you guys have no idea how your own game works really. This is just another money grab

Ready61

I like the new changes. That's going to help BIG time for guys that pilot accounts anyways. Only thing I don't like is same rewards. And because of that alone you might loose BIG spenders Kabam.

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Juggerneyks

Mightylibra wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

NemesisThantos wrote: »

I like how Kabam Miike is ignoring the main point of the posts he is quoting. Removing defender kills makes them more $$$, plain and simple. Just admit it

We have addressed that a few times. As we said, that was not the goal with the change. The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.

Here the quick survey about our Feeling with more than 90% disagreed with your assumption. So, what would you say?

If your truely care about our feeling as you said, please do something about it. Otherwise, you are just another money grabing company that doesn't care about anything but profit. There is nothing wrong with it, really! Just admit it and don't pretend that you care about our feeling.

where is this poll? i would like to vote or is it closed already

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Superman69

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Crammer2020 wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Crammer2020 wrote: »

GREAT! 5 minis with the same 3 attackers on a much bigger map, means more revives needed! No defender kill points! BIG SPENDERS WIN EVERY WAR!!! FUNNN!!!!!

Bigger map doesn't mean that you'll be having more fights. There will be just as many Defenders as there were before.

ok, just as many defenders. But defender kills, in combo with 5 mini bosses means $$ wins every war. No more skill. Good job killing wars.

The amount of items that any user can use remains the same, so every Alliance Member can still only Revive/Heal 15 times. This hasn't changed. Additionally, 5 Minibosses doesn't mean that any one person will be taking on more than 1.

The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.

Well IF that is the real reason why you have removed the defender kills, at least add this new function.
For every item used/ For every champ revived, the other alliance gets 500 points (the same amount of points as we get now for a defender kill)
This way, No one who has 2 champs remaining would feel 'DEFEAT' or that he's 'Helping the other alliance' and can go for a second and third shot using the other two champions. Also, this would keep AW at least a bit skill based, as opposed to what you are doing right now with this update.

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G-Hun-Gear

Sooo... I know that everything has been said already... But for the sake of momentum, let me recap:

No. 1: Bigger Maps
Bigger map with more nodes, while the number of opponents has stayed the same and the timer is reduced... The only sense that I can make out of this is that Kabam wants us to spend more time with the game... My energy is now refilled every 5 hours instead of every 7... Also, I need to make more steps, so I have to spend more time in wars.

Remember, when AW was released, they said: "Don't worry guys, the Maps are small and require much less steps than AQ... So it's not just "one more thing to do and get you stuck into the game""... well, now it is... or at least it is on its way there...

No. 2: Five Mini-Bosses
5 Mini Bosses... Just... Who complained about there being not enough mini bosses?!? The only use of mini bosses was to gather def-kills... Now def-kills are useless and more mini bosses simply means more items used...

No. 3: Def-Kills
Speaking of def-kills... Don't even get me started... Kabam can sugar coat it as much as they want, pretend that the change is against the frustration of not not fighting after the first fight... But: Who does that? Nobody just gives up after losing one fight despite having 2 champs left...

Simple math at the moment ist the following: Point wise it is ok to die up to 4 times against one enemy, the exploration points and the offense kill points will make up for the defensive kill points... But: Now it is possible to die UNLIMITED TIMES! Think about it: With the right items (threat would be 15 great team revives) you can produce 45 def-kills per player... And still win the war!

If this changes actually go live, then AW is dead... And probably MCOC with it altogether...

Ready61

So great job Kabam IMO with taking out defenders kills. The WAR was not matched up fair from defenders kills anyway from guys piloting accounts. Grinders if you want more resources do more grinding. Kabam if you want to keep your spenders from retiring this game start giving out tier 2 alpha fragments in AW top tier. Or glory points.

Thestoryteller6

RockandrollinaD wrote: »

Miike if you guys remove defender kill points at least reduce the amount of points per try given during attack for example if you are killed fighting one node on AW and trying again and again. It shouldn't be the same... there should be some kind of punish for those who keep reviving, it doesn't seems right and it's different killing your opponent on your first try than killing your opponent on your fith try. Also considering the points per boss, mini boss, normal nodes.
At least that way there would be a skill gap reflecting in those points.
If you guys let that way you're not helping anyone except for the big spenders.

I like this idea as a plan B...

But seriously, Kabam, everyone can see that taking away defender kill points is a stupid idea, no matter how you try to justify it... And no matter how many exclamation marks you use when talking about in your original post!

DNA3000

Timone147 wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

NemesisThantos wrote: »

I like how Kabam Miike is ignoring the main point of the posts he is quoting. Removing defender kills makes them more $$$, plain and simple. Just admit it

We have addressed that a few times. As we said, that was not the goal with the change. The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.

Trying to stay positive but this seems like a stretch to justify this move. In all the wars I have played l across many tiers(these days t2) over the last year rarely have I seen someone not KO there whole team for this reason unless at boss and no chance to down.

Usually when this happens it look more like they or a teammate was unable to return for the end.

Really doubtful that this happens often where people fight someone and just give up based off personal experience. Even in current AW one kill and node is worth more than 3 deaths I believe or at least equivalent in points and usually also frees up exploration so large majority go for it.

I am the first one to state that very often one person's experience doesn't represent what's happening throughout the game, and it is entirely possible there are players suffering from the problem Kabam Miike is articulating. In fact I'll presume there are and that Kabam gets a lot of complaints and/or feedback from players which put this issue on the radar for them in the first place.

I'm still struggling a bit with how valid a move this is. Players think and do dumb things all the time, and this seems to be a dumb thing to do. If I'm in front of a node and I die, I can do two things. I can try again with another champion if I have one, or I can, as KM says some players do, just give up because I don't want to cost my battlegroup points.

But if I don't take down that node, I am still costing them points. And the value of the node is far higher than the price of a defender kill. And I'm not just costing my battlegroup that one node, I am implicitly costing them many other nodes because either no one covers that path and the nodes past that point are lost costing attacker kills and explore credit, or someone else has to complete that path which means another path doesn't get covered.

Quitting only makes sense if I literally have no chance to take down that node, and sending more champs at it is futile. In that case, quitting does make sense: I will gain nothing and lose points if I just commit suicide on an unbeatable (for me) node.

But if that's the case, eliminating defender kill points doesn't change that equation much. That node is still unbeatable and now instead of quitting after dying once I now get to quit after dying three times, but that node is still alive and I have still cost my battlegroup points by being unable to defeat it. Instead of the feeling of defeat that comes from being unable to defeat a node without dying, I now get the feeling of futility that comes from getting all my champions killed by a node and still not killing it. Sure, there are edge cases where I was wrong and in fact when I try with all three champ I eventually do kill the node, but that just means the player was wrong to quit in the first place.

The question I'm wondering is whether in a competitive game we need to subsidize bad judgment. Even granting that there exist players in this situation, it is still an open question how much effort we should expend to help them. Mistakes should cost players in a competition, whether that mistake is a thumb slipping on the screen or their brains reaching incorrect tactical decisions.

The only time I think it is warranted to subsidize bad judgment is when the players cannot reasonably be expected to know better. A player who just started yesterday cannot be expected to know all the ins and outs of how alliance wars work or how the scoring system works or what the best tactical strategy is. I can envision defender kills being removed completely for low tier alliance wars where there is a reason to put training wheels on. You could argue that in the early going and for lower capability players and alliances, encouraging participation is more important than enhancing competition. But above a certain level, I think competition becomes more important than participation, and mistakes should have consequences. Giving up while you still have healthy attackers is generally a mistake.

Mightylibra

Juggerneyks wrote: »

Mightylibra wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

NemesisThantos wrote: »

I like how Kabam Miike is ignoring the main point of the posts he is quoting. Removing defender kills makes them more $$$, plain and simple. Just admit it

We have addressed that a few times. As we said, that was not the goal with the change. The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.

Here the quick survey about our Feeling with more than 90% disagreed with your assumption. So, what would you say?

If your truely care about our feeling as you said, please do something about it. Otherwise, you are just another money grabing company that doesn't care about anything but profit. There is nothing wrong with it, really! Just admit it and don't pretend that you care about our feeling.

where is this poll? i would like to vote or is it closed already

I don't find it either, lol. Probably it has been removed after just 1 hour. If it stays, hundred of us will vote, too.

But the idea is stastically proven, and I saved the screenshot, just in case.

Sanvondes

Sooo more difficult map but same rewards?

turtlebud

Mightylibra wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

NemesisThantos wrote: »

I like how Kabam Miike is ignoring the main point of the posts he is quoting. Removing defender kills makes them more $$$, plain and simple. Just admit it

We have addressed that a few times. As we said, that was not the goal with the change. The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.

Here the quick survey about our Feeling with more than 90% disagreed with your assumption. So, what would you say?

If your truely care about our feeling as you said, please do something about it. Otherwise, you are just another money grabing company that doesn't care about anything but profit. There is nothing wrong with it, really! Just admit it and don't pretend that you care about our feeling.

Great information. Thanks for sharing that.

Mike, I was wondering about this as well. Where did you get your information about people feeling defeated and not wanting to take a shot at a champ because they were worried that it would help the other team? Is there a survey that you took or did you ask the beta testers? It seems odd to me because nobody in my alliance feels this way when were are fighting in an AW and based on the posted survey, almost everyone that answered doesn't feel that way as well. Seems a little disingenuous to use that as a reason for the change with no data to support it.

RebusUI

I'm tired of hearing magik limbo and all... Dr Voodoo 4* or 5* will down magik in 1-3 tries... doesn't take much... finish your combos in odd... reduces her ability to proc limbo by 50% and once you place the debuff on Magik... limbo hardly proc... Dorm now get cap ww2 and just pray degen doesn't kill you first... boosting always helps and with the new AW boosts added could help... just saying... or just wait a little while... the first 6* champ might be degen immune... lol

Now I want to know about the rewards... right now it better to do arena milestones in basic and feature than to do AW cause you get more 4* and 5* shards... so with all the added adjustment to AW I hope the rewards reflects the changes... like at least double the current 4* and 5* shards rewards... I'm talking like 1000 4* shards and 1200 5* for winning teams... anything less than this is **** in my opinion

neb

Maybe this defender kills not mattering anymore is just a way of helping people forget about all the other ways the community has been ignored they can still reverse this and say see! We listen and value our customers!
Can't stop a guy from dreaming right??

Cashgrab

So we are gonna make your map harder. We are gonna take away defender kills which is all about skill. Along with keeping your rewards the same as before which is total ****. So basically everyone who doesn't have the ability to spend at will your alliance is screwed in wars. Once again instead of fixing all the current problems in game they are gonna add more content that their servers can't handle. Should make our game experience that much more laggy with more crashes. That by the way are your phones fault not theirs even though the community uses diffrent phones and providers. Great job once again kascam way to give it to us once again with no **** !!!!

Raganator

Removing a thread with a poll that is clearly inconsistent with Kabam's explanation of why defender kills are no longer scores is entirely disingenuous to claiming that you want to work with the community and value our input. Stop talking out of two sides of your mouth.