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Bishop's Champion Design is horrible

UnleashingChaosUnleashingChaos Posts: 244 ★★
in General Discussion
The thing about bishop is that he is meant to be a hard hitting champion with his special attacks. The main issue is that you may get punished for being too greedy. The degen you recieve when you have 40+ prowess charges is absolutely horrendous and needs to be toned down. His regen cant even keep up with all the degen he can recieve. This doesn't even require a champion balance or rework of any kind... just reduce the damage he takes from it! Champions shouldn't be able to kill themselves especially that quickly.
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Comments

  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 5,346 ★★★★★
    I'm not saying his design is great. But, if your prowess is building up, can't you just drain it by holding block to regenerate?
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 5,346 ★★★★★
    edited December 2019
    These are fun videos if you like Bishop, @UnleashingChaos:
    https://youtu.be/UdxwXSxiIUU

    https://youtu.be/CuxZ0CmDDbE
  • ChubsWhiteChubsWhite Posts: 493 ★★★
    No, you launch a special attack to get rid of his prowess charges.
  • Nick_Caine_32Nick_Caine_32 Posts: 587 ★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    UnleashingChaos said:

    NOOOOOOOOPEEEEE said:

    Or just don't build up over 40 prowess

    And then he loses out on potential damage. See what I mean? His design forces you to play within a certain parameter. You try and break it or you accidentally go over the limit and you lose health. Terrible champion design and not practical in content.
    That's the whole point. It limits what you can do. It's not the first place we've seen this cost. Suicides are basically the same thing. You can do more Damage, for a cost. That's what balances it.
    uhhhhh are you really comparing something players can choose to unlock (masteries) to make their champions hit harder, with an ability the player cannot choose on a specific character and it's attributes? They're built in no matter what, while suicides are not. And even then, you can adjust suicides and tweak them. You don't have that luxury with this champ. I wouldn't personally use him either way and don't have a stake in this myself, but to argue that it's the same as using suicides is kinda weird.

    They're not having trouble understanding the trade off if you're using specials to get big damage, they're pointing out the amount it's ramped up isn't proportional. I would say debate them on that rather than deflecting to another topic altogether. With suicides, you spend units and gold and cores, take damage and recoil but get HUGE benefits that make it worth running them. If they designed a champion to act like this on his own, it should balance out the same. That's their point.
  • DOKTOROKTOPUSDOKTOROKTOPUS Posts: 1,501 ★★★
    kabam nailed it, imo


  • LovekLovek Posts: 216 ★★★
    i'm totally agree with that. He should not have this suicid ! Kabam deleted BlackBolt's suicid, should to same for Bishop. This is the only thing why i never want to use him...
  • LovekLovek Posts: 216 ★★★
    My_Superior said:

    Bruh... Bishop is actually one of the better champions Kabam has made. True to the character, he stores too much power and he takes damage. Although it makes him more powerful, he has to expend the energy before he hurts himself. If he wants he can sacrifice his own health for greater damage. The devs did justice to the source material and the game by making an interesting champ with a unique playstyle.

    you wrong, now we have lot of more champions who make more damage without sacrifice any health. Bishop is in middle about damage outpook then with max poweress. Kabam should delete this suicid like did for Blackbolt
  • KalantakKalantak Posts: 1,291 ★★★★
    They should just limit the prowess charge instead oh but well he doesnt have anything else why even bother doing anything to him . No actual immunities,damage,no good synergies,not good base stats,yep nothing at all..dnt have to rank him at all. There are many border line good champs that could use some push.
  • Jh_DezJh_Dez Posts: 1,306 ★★★
    edited December 2019
    My_Superior said:

    Bruh... Bishop is actually one of the better champions Kabam has made. True to the character, he stores too much power and he takes damage. Although it makes him more powerful, he has to expend the energy before he hurts himself. If he wants he can sacrifice his own health for greater damage. The devs did justice to the source material and the game by making an interesting champ with a unique playstyle.

    But then when we ask for characters to stay true to some of their characteristics, some people come and start barking
    I do like his features tho
  • Mirage_TurtleMirage_Turtle Posts: 1,868 ★★★★
    My biggest issue with Bishop is that he's completely neutered against Tech champs. I'm not sure there's a single other champ in the game that is as disadvantaged based on class relationships as Bishop. Against Tech, he's unable to gain Prowess...which is the key to his whole toolkit.

    You get a bonus for fighting skill champs, but taking away his abilities completely against Tech champs seems too severe. At least allow him to gain 1 prowess on parries when fighting tech champs. That would reduce his effectiveness against Tech champs but still leave him with something.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,657 Guardian
    Nick_Caine_32 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    UnleashingChaos said:

    NOOOOOOOOPEEEEE said:

    Or just don't build up over 40 prowess

    And then he loses out on potential damage. See what I mean? His design forces you to play within a certain parameter. You try and break it or you accidentally go over the limit and you lose health. Terrible champion design and not practical in content.
    That's the whole point. It limits what you can do. It's not the first place we've seen this cost. Suicides are basically the same thing. You can do more Damage, for a cost. That's what balances it.
    uhhhhh are you really comparing something players can choose to unlock (masteries) to make their champions hit harder, with an ability the player cannot choose on a specific character and it's attributes? They're built in no matter what, while suicides are not. And even then, you can adjust suicides and tweak them. You don't have that luxury with this champ. I wouldn't personally use him either way and don't have a stake in this myself, but to argue that it's the same as using suicides is kinda weird.
    I would argue that Bishop's design is better than suicides in many respects. You can't really control suicide damage completely: you can mitigate it somewhat and a few champs can negate recoil, but by in large suicide damage is not fully avoidable: if it were, everyone would run them. But you do not need to take any damage with Bishop, ever. You only take damage if you choose to take the risk of pushing his charges to the absolute limit, which is a real time gameplay choice.

    In any case, the OP's original argument was that "you may get punished for being too greedy." To me, that's an example of a good design element, not a bad one. Counterbalancing the fact that the degen is pretty high is the fact that you don't have to take any of it, ever. If it was low and completely avoidable it would be a penalty in name only, and everyone would just push Bishop to max charges all the time and take the risk. That would make the entire mechanism somewhat pointless.
  • slackerslacker Posts: 772 ★★★★
    UnleashingChaos said:

    I'm honestly disappointed in you guys. Almost 2 years later and Bishop still has not found much use in the contest. I wonder why... it's quite hypocritcal to defend this champ if you don't bother to use him. *ahem* Talking to most people here. As @TripleB said there is no justifying why Bishop gets the insane degen on himself for trying to increase his special damage output whileother champions such as Namor or Sunspot have zero penalty. If Kabam wanted to make it similar to the comics how about they make it a small degen equivalent to the damage of double edge? Then Kabam could put a cap of let's say 60 prowess and all will be well.

    You forgot that this dude has nearly 4k energy resistance, he save me a lot from magik's limbo, the shock passive node,electro outside and in variant 4.1,...and those prowess went real fast, he just need to increase his regen rate
  • Nick_Caine_32Nick_Caine_32 Posts: 587 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Nick_Caine_32 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    UnleashingChaos said:

    NOOOOOOOOPEEEEE said:

    Or just don't build up over 40 prowess

    And then he loses out on potential damage. See what I mean? His design forces you to play within a certain parameter. You try and break it or you accidentally go over the limit and you lose health. Terrible champion design and not practical in content.
    That's the whole point. It limits what you can do. It's not the first place we've seen this cost. Suicides are basically the same thing. You can do more Damage, for a cost. That's what balances it.
    uhhhhh are you really comparing something players can choose to unlock (masteries) to make their champions hit harder, with an ability the player cannot choose on a specific character and it's attributes? They're built in no matter what, while suicides are not. And even then, you can adjust suicides and tweak them. You don't have that luxury with this champ. I wouldn't personally use him either way and don't have a stake in this myself, but to argue that it's the same as using suicides is kinda weird.
    I would argue that Bishop's design is better than suicides in many respects. You can't really control suicide damage completely: you can mitigate it somewhat and a few champs can negate recoil, but by in large suicide damage is not fully avoidable: if it were, everyone would run them. But you do not need to take any damage with Bishop, ever. You only take damage if you choose to take the risk of pushing his charges to the absolute limit, which is a real time gameplay choice.

    In any case, the OP's original argument was that "you may get punished for being too greedy." To me, that's an example of a good design element, not a bad one. Counterbalancing the fact that the degen is pretty high is the fact that you don't have to take any of it, ever. If it was low and completely avoidable it would be a penalty in name only, and everyone would just push Bishop to max charges all the time and take the risk. That would make the entire mechanism somewhat pointless.
    "You can't control suicide damage completely" - no one claimed this here. What we did point out was you can play around it like you mentioned, some champs benefit more or less depending on their kit, and you can run different builds with varied results. You can change your build before a game mode, you have the choice. And the BENEFIT of doing any of this is BALANCED out by the reward, in damage increase. Not just on specials but all attack percentage. The sacrifice is worth it, but the players have that choice.

    Most of the posts I see defending Bishop, his design, or trying to showcase his damage potential is having to push his charges higher or "to the limit" as you state.. "You do not need to take any damage with Bishop ever" - but no player is going to rank a champ like this, or put resources into him over another champion, because they won't be able to use him to maximize his damage potential. You're predictably defending his design while admitting you won't be able to use him like people have described to do an ability other champions already have in spades, and don't take huge damage from to get them useful in the current game meta. That by definition is bad design.

    "You may get punished for being too greedy" would be a good design if it compared to other champions abilities, or suicide builds, or Bishop's overall character design in the first place. He barely has utility, his damage isn't great if you don't want to push his charges, all of his attributes don't balance out so someone wanting to use him to his max potential is therefore forced to push him to the limit and take unavoidable damage as a result. What you ignored in the OP comment was that they wanted some balance to this because it's not scaled well. Suicide builds are. You get increased benefits for EQUAL detriment to your champion, and even then it's easier for some champs to handle that build. "You don't have to take any of the degen ever" is false, because he doesn't do enough without doing this mechanic and you're basically admitting the degen is inflated to make people not want to use it. It's like a textbook description of a bad champion mechanic. Sorry, we're gonna have to disagree on this one dude. No one with a healthy roster or even up and coming is gonna pull a six star Bishop and be excited they can't use him at his max potential, and it's not "greedy" to want some decent damage from an otherwise meh champion.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,236 ★★★★★
    Nick_Caine_32 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Nick_Caine_32 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    UnleashingChaos said:

    NOOOOOOOOPEEEEE said:

    Or just don't build up over 40 prowess

    And then he loses out on potential damage. See what I mean? His design forces you to play within a certain parameter. You try and break it or you accidentally go over the limit and you lose health. Terrible champion design and not practical in content.
    That's the whole point. It limits what you can do. It's not the first place we've seen this cost. Suicides are basically the same thing. You can do more Damage, for a cost. That's what balances it.
    uhhhhh are you really comparing something players can choose to unlock (masteries) to make their champions hit harder, with an ability the player cannot choose on a specific character and it's attributes? They're built in no matter what, while suicides are not. And even then, you can adjust suicides and tweak them. You don't have that luxury with this champ. I wouldn't personally use him either way and don't have a stake in this myself, but to argue that it's the same as using suicides is kinda weird.
    I would argue that Bishop's design is better than suicides in many respects. You can't really control suicide damage completely: you can mitigate it somewhat and a few champs can negate recoil, but by in large suicide damage is not fully avoidable: if it were, everyone would run them. But you do not need to take any damage with Bishop, ever. You only take damage if you choose to take the risk of pushing his charges to the absolute limit, which is a real time gameplay choice.

    In any case, the OP's original argument was that "you may get punished for being too greedy." To me, that's an example of a good design element, not a bad one. Counterbalancing the fact that the degen is pretty high is the fact that you don't have to take any of it, ever. If it was low and completely avoidable it would be a penalty in name only, and everyone would just push Bishop to max charges all the time and take the risk. That would make the entire mechanism somewhat pointless.
    "You can't control suicide damage completely" - no one claimed this here. What we did point out was you can play around it like you mentioned, some champs benefit more or less depending on their kit, and you can run different builds with varied results. You can change your build before a game mode, you have the choice. And the BENEFIT of doing any of this is BALANCED out by the reward, in damage increase. Not just on specials but all attack percentage. The sacrifice is worth it, but the players have that choice.

    Most of the posts I see defending Bishop, his design, or trying to showcase his damage potential is having to push his charges higher or "to the limit" as you state.. "You do not need to take any damage with Bishop ever" - but no player is going to rank a champ like this, or put resources into him over another champion, because they won't be able to use him to maximize his damage potential. You're predictably defending his design while admitting you won't be able to use him like people have described to do an ability other champions already have in spades, and don't take huge damage from to get them useful in the current game meta. That by definition is bad design.

    "You may get punished for being too greedy" would be a good design if it compared to other champions abilities, or suicide builds, or Bishop's overall character design in the first place. He barely has utility, his damage isn't great if you don't want to push his charges, all of his attributes don't balance out so someone wanting to use him to his max potential is therefore forced to push him to the limit and take unavoidable damage as a result. What you ignored in the OP comment was that they wanted some balance to this because it's not scaled well. Suicide builds are. You get increased benefits for EQUAL detriment to your champion, and even then it's easier for some champs to handle that build. "You don't have to take any of the degen ever" is false, because he doesn't do enough without doing this mechanic and you're basically admitting the degen is inflated to make people not want to use it. It's like a textbook description of a bad champion mechanic. Sorry, we're gonna have to disagree on this one dude. No one with a healthy roster or even up and coming is gonna pull a six star Bishop and be excited they can't use him at his max potential, and it's not "greedy" to want some decent damage from an otherwise meh champion.
    Greedy? No. It is however, a choice. It's perfectly feasible to play him within limits. If you cross the threshold, the cost is Health. People can make their own choices. What this highlights is there is a limit to what he can do. There's a certain sacrifice to be made. That's much more interactive and useful than just a set limit. Otherwise we'd be discussing how he can't do much at all. It's a simple concept. You can push it, but there's a price to be paid.
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