I was thinking: is starburst the worst node design ever?

lowlevelplayer · July 2020

Its just unavoidable degen damage. Only 2 counters: hulk rags and max sig namor. If they placed this node on any 6.2/3/4 fight, pretty much every champ will die to degen damage. I wonder: what were they thinking when they made the node?

Lvernon15 · July 2020

Since it’s not based on health but is just a set value that always caps at the same damage the deeper you get the stronger your regen chanps are

Kill_Grey · July 2020

Lvernon15 said:
Since it’s not based on health but is just a set value that always caps at the same damage the deeper you get the stronger your regen chanps are

What are you talking about?

Kill_Grey · July 2020

lowlevelplayer said:
Its just unavoidable degen damage. Only 2 counters: hulk rags and max sig namor. If they placed this node on any 6.2/3/4 fight, pretty much every champ will die to degen damage. I wonder: what were they thinking when they made the node?

Ghost with hood synergy can counter it to some extent as well. But it's still unavoidable damage in the end.

dano357 · July 2020

I'll take Starburst over Aspect of War any day.

Panchulon21 · July 2020

dano357 said:
I'll take Starburst over Aspect of War any day.

You have a point to an extent. I’d take starburst in a 300k+ health fight over aspect. But aspect in a fight with less than 150k health I don’t mind.

Now I don’t care about starbust also cuz I have a rank 2 gladiator

Kill_Grey · July 2020

The only time I'd probably prefer aspect of war to starburst is when there's a killmonger on aspect of war.

Thanks_D19 · July 2020

Corvus can also counter it at 1 HP Along with CMM with her indestructible, also just the flat 3.6% degen nodes are waaaaaay worse

pseudosane · July 2020

Strength in numbers would like to have a word.

Lvernon15 · July 2020

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:
Since it’s not based on health but is just a set value that always caps at the same damage the deeper you get the stronger your regen chanps are
What are you talking about?

The damage is just a number, it doesn’t increase as content gets harder while your champs do get stronger so in early content it doesn’t cause issues because the fights are weak, in late content the damage is minimal for strong champs

Kill_Grey · July 2020

Lvernon15 said:

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:
Since it’s not based on health but is just a set value that always caps at the same damage the deeper you get the stronger your regen chanps are
What are you talking about?
The damage is just a number, it doesn’t increase as content gets harder while your champs do get stronger so in early content it doesn’t cause issues because the fights are weak, in late content the damage is minimal for strong champs

It basically increases with bigger healthpools. Unless you can pretty much have a CMM end a fight in 12 seconds of her indestructible (or whatever duration), the moment it ends, you're gonna drain to death.

Kill_Grey · July 2020

The last starburst fight I remember was the punisher in RTTL 4.4 (I think). I used a 4* maxed gulk, yet almost died to the degen. I really wonder how people did that fight without him. And the funny thing is that he only had like 100k health.
Imagine a fight in act 6.4 with about 400k health, even with a 5* rank 5 gulk, you're gonna die to that degen.

Lvernon15 · July 2020

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:
Since it’s not based on health but is just a set value that always caps at the same damage the deeper you get the stronger your regen chanps are
What are you talking about?
The damage is just a number, it doesn’t increase as content gets harder while your champs do get stronger so in early content it doesn’t cause issues because the fights are weak, in late content the damage is minimal for strong champs
It basically increases with bigger healthpools. Unless you can pretty much have a CMM end a fight in 12 seconds of her indestructible (or whatever duration), the moment it ends, you're gonna drain to death.

The damage per tick is the same wether you’re fighting a 1000 or a 10000000 health opponent if they’re at the same % health, if there’s starburst in act 6 a 5-65 champ with regen could outheal it

lowlevelplayer · July 2020

Lvernon15 said:

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:
Since it’s not based on health but is just a set value that always caps at the same damage the deeper you get the stronger your regen chanps are
What are you talking about?
The damage is just a number, it doesn’t increase as content gets harder while your champs do get stronger so in early content it doesn’t cause issues because the fights are weak, in late content the damage is minimal for strong champs
It basically increases with bigger healthpools. Unless you can pretty much have a CMM end a fight in 12 seconds of her indestructible (or whatever duration), the moment it ends, you're gonna drain to death.
The damage per tick is the same wether you’re fighting a 1000 or a 10000000 health opponent if they’re at the same % health, if there’s starburst in act 6 a 5-65 champ with regen could outheal it

and what about when the opponent is at like 10%? You are dying super fast

Kill_Grey · July 2020

Lvernon15 said:

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:
Since it’s not based on health but is just a set value that always caps at the same damage the deeper you get the stronger your regen chanps are
What are you talking about?
The damage is just a number, it doesn’t increase as content gets harder while your champs do get stronger so in early content it doesn’t cause issues because the fights are weak, in late content the damage is minimal for strong champs
It basically increases with bigger healthpools. Unless you can pretty much have a CMM end a fight in 12 seconds of her indestructible (or whatever duration), the moment it ends, you're gonna drain to death.
The damage per tick is the same wether you’re fighting a 1000 or a 10000000 health opponent if they’re at the same % health, if there’s starburst in act 6 a 5-65 champ with regen could outheal it

Really? Because I'm pretty sure the node states the degen is based on "missing health". The numerical value of missing health, not the percentage. It's different values across map 6, RTTL, and act 4.

mum_m2 · July 2020

not even close. I'll take starburst over so many others.

There's some really challenging ones, but there's no single node that punishes you the same way Strength in #'s does. You have to play perfect for an entire path of 8 fights and then fight a relatively easier boss fight.

No Retreat is probably the worst.

I really hate all of the niche nodes. Like can't stop won't stop and the power sting paths. I just want to play the game, not sit any wait forever to pull a champ, rank someone up i don't want to, and then clear the path.

Kill_Grey · July 2020

mum_m2 said:
not even close. I'll take starburst over so many others.

There's some really challenging ones, but there's no single node that punishes you the same way Strength in #'s does. You have to play perfect for an entire path of 8 fights and then fight a relatively easier boss fight.

No Retreat is probably the worst.

I really hate all of the niche nodes. Like can't stop won't stop and the power sting paths. I just want to play the game, not sit any wait forever to pull a champ, rank someone up i don't want to, and then clear the path.

Yeah, I completely forgot about can't stop won't stop!

Masterpuff · July 2020

Mercy and aspect of war are so much worse

Mathgeek · July 2020

Just be glad abyss doesn't have star burst

Shamir51 · July 2020

Corvus with suicides and willpower doesn’t lose health from starburst. The regen he gets from double edge counters the degen. At least that’s what I’ve noticed in map 6 AQ- I’ve never come out of a fight (with starburst) with less health.

Worknprogress · July 2020

If you think Starburst is the worst, you have a lot of fun stuff in store later on

Colinwhitworth69 · July 2020

lowlevelplayer said:
Its just unavoidable degen damage. Only 2 counters: hulk rags and max sig namor. If they placed this node on any 6.2/3/4 fight, pretty much every champ will die to degen damage. I wonder: what were they thinking when they made the node?

You should see this thread.

Doomsfist79 · July 2020

lowlevelplayer said:
Its just unavoidable degen damage. Only 2 counters: hulk rags and max sig namor. If they placed this node on any 6.2/3/4 fight, pretty much every champ will die to degen damage. I wonder: what were they thinking when they made the node?

Gladiator Hulk says no..

DNA3000 · July 2020

lowlevelplayer said:
Its just unavoidable degen damage. Only 2 counters: hulk rags and max sig namor. If they placed this node on any 6.2/3/4 fight, pretty much every champ will die to degen damage. I wonder: what were they thinking when they made the node?

This would be a good time to consider what a "counter" is. A lot of people think a counter is a champion you can use that allows you to ignore some aspect of a fight. So a starburst counter is a champ that you can use in a fight with starburst that lets you basically ignore starburst. But that's not what I consider to be a counter.

To me, a counter is a combination of champion and tactical play that lets you win the fight. And by that definition there are lots of other counters. Magik is a counter to starburst: I've seen her used with super-aggressive play to basically eliminate most of the starburst damage by using Limbo to unwind it. Captain Marvel can counter starburst by just being indestructible for most of the end of the fight when starburst damage is at its highest. And heck, I've used Blade against starburst and just healed back whatever damage I took.

In fact it is worth noting that Blade is often a good "counter" for a fight not specifically because of anything he does in that specific fight, but simply because whatever damage you take in that fight you can heal back in the next fight provided that fight allows you to do so. Blade might not be an explicit counter for one specific fight, but he might still be a good choice to take on that path as a whole *including* the fight he isn't the best choice for, simply because it is better if he takes that damage than anything else on the team. It doesn't matter if you take damage if you can heal it back reliably.

There are other ways to "counter" starburst. Recognizing that the damage is low at the start and higher at the end of the fight, you could use champions and tactics that backload damage. Champs that ramp up damage or have high burst damage can be good by limiting the time you're exposed to the low health/high damage conditions. Stark Spidey for example can be played that way, deliberately building poise and chipping away slowly until the fight is winnable quickly enough that starburst's damage is low overall. This attacks the mechanics of starburst as opposed to trying to find a brute force way to negate the damage of starburst.

Focusing on the "unavoidability" of the damage can cause players to overlook the actual mechanics of the damage, and forgetting the point is to complete the path, not to complete one fight without breaking a sweat.

Lvernon15 · July 2020

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:
Since it’s not based on health but is just a set value that always caps at the same damage the deeper you get the stronger your regen chanps are
What are you talking about?
The damage is just a number, it doesn’t increase as content gets harder while your champs do get stronger so in early content it doesn’t cause issues because the fights are weak, in late content the damage is minimal for strong champs
It basically increases with bigger healthpools. Unless you can pretty much have a CMM end a fight in 12 seconds of her indestructible (or whatever duration), the moment it ends, you're gonna drain to death.
The damage per tick is the same wether you’re fighting a 1000 or a 10000000 health opponent if they’re at the same % health, if there’s starburst in act 6 a 5-65 champ with regen could outheal it
Really? Because I'm pretty sure the node states the degen is based on "missing health". The numerical value of missing health, not the percentage. It's different values across map 6, RTTL, and act 4.

I take map 7 starburst sometimes and the damage is identical to that if a starburst node in act 4, it works by percent with the strongest possible tick being 150 no matter what content you’re in. Test it for yourself if you don’t believe me, it’s in v1 and 2 and I also believe weaker opponents have it in either 4.3.1 or 4.3.2

Kill_Grey · July 2020

Lvernon15 said:

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:
Since it’s not based on health but is just a set value that always caps at the same damage the deeper you get the stronger your regen chanps are
What are you talking about?
The damage is just a number, it doesn’t increase as content gets harder while your champs do get stronger so in early content it doesn’t cause issues because the fights are weak, in late content the damage is minimal for strong champs
It basically increases with bigger healthpools. Unless you can pretty much have a CMM end a fight in 12 seconds of her indestructible (or whatever duration), the moment it ends, you're gonna drain to death.
The damage per tick is the same wether you’re fighting a 1000 or a 10000000 health opponent if they’re at the same % health, if there’s starburst in act 6 a 5-65 champ with regen could outheal it
Really? Because I'm pretty sure the node states the degen is based on "missing health". The numerical value of missing health, not the percentage. It's different values across map 6, RTTL, and act 4.
I take map 7 starburst sometimes and the damage is identical to that if a starburst node in act 4, it works by percent with the strongest possible tick being 150 no matter what content you’re in. Test it for yourself if you don’t believe me, it’s in v1 and 2 and I also believe weaker opponents have it in either 4.3.1 or 4.3.2

Huh, feels like there was a little change at some point if that's what it actually is today.

Lvernon15 · July 2020

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:

Kill_Grey4112 said:

Lvernon15 said:
Since it’s not based on health but is just a set value that always caps at the same damage the deeper you get the stronger your regen chanps are
What are you talking about?
The damage is just a number, it doesn’t increase as content gets harder while your champs do get stronger so in early content it doesn’t cause issues because the fights are weak, in late content the damage is minimal for strong champs
It basically increases with bigger healthpools. Unless you can pretty much have a CMM end a fight in 12 seconds of her indestructible (or whatever duration), the moment it ends, you're gonna drain to death.
The damage per tick is the same wether you’re fighting a 1000 or a 10000000 health opponent if they’re at the same % health, if there’s starburst in act 6 a 5-65 champ with regen could outheal it
Really? Because I'm pretty sure the node states the degen is based on "missing health". The numerical value of missing health, not the percentage. It's different values across map 6, RTTL, and act 4.
I take map 7 starburst sometimes and the damage is identical to that if a starburst node in act 4, it works by percent with the strongest possible tick being 150 no matter what content you’re in. Test it for yourself if you don’t believe me, it’s in v1 and 2 and I also believe weaker opponents have it in either 4.3.1 or 4.3.2
Huh, feels like there was a little change at some point if that's what it actually is today.

It’s always been like that to my knowledge, even in 2016/2017 when I was doing act 4 and rttl it was the same in both of those

Nojokejaym · July 2020

Nah starburst is alright

Frosty · July 2020

Slashed Tires was 1 of the worst node designs ever. Instant damage from dashing back. Fight a beefed up juggs pre nerf in act 4 with that node

I was thinking: is starburst the worst node design ever?

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