Bruh Archangel is useless against bleed immune yeah. But find him a matchup that he can do and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do it better except Quake. He'll shut down their nodes, their abilities.
Most of the time AA does it faster than quake.
All of the time. It's not even a competition in regards to speed.
Some nodes might hinder his speed like stun immunity.
I'd you can heavy counter, it's not a problem. His specials also places the debuffs as well. Quake is also hampered by stun immunity, because it means less aftershocks for her.
Quake is literally fine on stun immune. You can still get around 10 aftershocks.
Bruh Archangel is useless against bleed immune yeah. But find him a matchup that he can do and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do it better except Quake. He'll shut down their nodes, their abilities.
Most of the time AA does it faster than quake.
All of the time. It's not even a competition in regards to speed.
Some nodes might hinder his speed like stun immunity.
I'd you can heavy counter, it's not a problem. His specials also places the debuffs as well. Quake is also hampered by stun immunity, because it means less aftershocks for her.
Bruh Archangel is useless against bleed immune yeah. But find him a matchup that he can do and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do it better except Quake. He'll shut down their nodes, their abilities.
Most of the time AA does it faster than quake.
All of the time. It's not even a competition in regards to speed.
Some nodes might hinder his speed like stun immunity.
I'd you can heavy counter, it's not a problem. His specials also places the debuffs as well. Quake is also hampered by stun immunity, because it means less aftershocks for her.
Ok stun immune is slower for both but glancing, debuff purification for AA is slower. This is coming from a person who hates quake.
You have a point for glancing tho. If AA wasn't bugged against it, it'll probably just be like playing a normal fight.
As for debuff purification, AA reduces the opponent's purify chance per bleed on them. It's pretty weird against kingpin tho.
Bruh Archangel is useless against bleed immune yeah. But find him a matchup that he can do and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do it better except Quake. He'll shut down their nodes, their abilities.
Most of the time AA does it faster than quake.
All of the time. It's not even a competition in regards to speed.
Some nodes might hinder his speed like stun immunity.
I'd you can heavy counter, it's not a problem. His specials also places the debuffs as well. Quake is also hampered by stun immunity, because it means less aftershocks for her.
Quake is literally fine on stun immune. You can still get around 10 aftershocks.
Bruh Archangel is useless against bleed immune yeah. But find him a matchup that he can do and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do it better except Quake. He'll shut down their nodes, their abilities.
Most of the time AA does it faster than quake.
All of the time. It's not even a competition in regards to speed.
Some nodes might hinder his speed like stun immunity.
I'd you can heavy counter, it's not a problem. His specials also places the debuffs as well. Quake is also hampered by stun immunity, because it means less aftershocks for her.
Quake is literally fine on stun immune. You can still get around 10 aftershocks.
Lol, AA beats that damage easily
Quake isn’t about the damage, she’s about the utility.
Bruh Archangel is useless against bleed immune yeah. But find him a matchup that he can do and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do it better except Quake. He'll shut down their nodes, their abilities.
Most of the time AA does it faster than quake.
All of the time. It's not even a competition in regards to speed.
Some nodes might hinder his speed like stun immunity.
I'd you can heavy counter, it's not a problem. His specials also places the debuffs as well. Quake is also hampered by stun immunity, because it means less aftershocks for her.
Quake is literally fine on stun immune. You can still get around 10 aftershocks.
Lol, AA beats that damage easily
Quake isn’t about the damage, she’s about the utility.
Bruh Archangel is useless against bleed immune yeah. But find him a matchup that he can do and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do it better except Quake. He'll shut down their nodes, their abilities.
Most of the time AA does it faster than quake.
All of the time. It's not even a competition in regards to speed.
Some nodes might hinder his speed like stun immunity.
I'd you can heavy counter, it's not a problem. His specials also places the debuffs as well. Quake is also hampered by stun immunity, because it means less aftershocks for her.
Quake is literally fine on stun immune. You can still get around 10 aftershocks.
Lol, AA beats that damage easily
Quake isn’t about the damage, she’s about the utility.
Bruh Archangel is useless against bleed immune yeah. But find him a matchup that he can do and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do it better except Quake. He'll shut down their nodes, their abilities.
Most of the time AA does it faster than quake.
All of the time. It's not even a competition in regards to speed.
Some nodes might hinder his speed like stun immunity.
I'd you can heavy counter, it's not a problem. His specials also places the debuffs as well. Quake is also hampered by stun immunity, because it means less aftershocks for her.
Quake is literally fine on stun immune. You can still get around 10 aftershocks.
Lol, AA beats that damage easily
Quake isn’t about the damage, she’s about the utility.
AA has both, my dude
But if course, I'm not arguing about the fact that quake is more versatile
Bruh Archangel is useless against bleed immune yeah. But find him a matchup that he can do and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do it better except Quake. He'll shut down their nodes, their abilities.
Most of the time AA does it faster than quake.
All of the time. It's not even a competition in regards to speed.
Some nodes might hinder his speed like stun immunity.
I'd you can heavy counter, it's not a problem. His specials also places the debuffs as well. Quake is also hampered by stun immunity, because it means less aftershocks for her.
Bruh Archangel is useless against bleed immune yeah. But find him a matchup that he can do and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do it better except Quake. He'll shut down their nodes, their abilities.
Most of the time AA does it faster than quake.
All of the time. It's not even a competition in regards to speed.
Some nodes might hinder his speed like stun immunity.
I'd you can heavy counter, it's not a problem. His specials also places the debuffs as well. Quake is also hampered by stun immunity, because it means less aftershocks for her.
Ok stun immune is slower for both but glancing, debuff purification for AA is slower. This is coming from a person who hates quake.
You have a point for glancing tho. If AA wasn't bugged against it, it'll probably just be like playing a normal fight.
As for debuff purification, AA reduces the opponent's purify chance per bleed on them. It's pretty weird against kingpin tho.
Meta is always changing, but I would say problem solvers are the best. I consider Quake the best champ in the game because she is the best problem solver. She has weaknesses but she can handle a lot of fights. Caveat is she is arguably the hardest champ to master.
Her way of playing by not having to touch the opponent bypasses a mountain of nodes including: spiked armor, thorns, any unblockable or unstoppable nodes (i.e. aspect of war), evade, miss, autoblock, freezer burn, biohazard, do not go gentle, kinetic transference, stun immunity, + more. Her 100% concussion is very good and can even shut down Stubborn AW global (momentarily) and nodes like spite.
Bruh Archangel is useless against bleed immune yeah. But find him a matchup that he can do and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do it better except Quake. He'll shut down their nodes, their abilities.
Most of the time AA does it faster than quake.
All of the time. It's not even a competition in regards to speed.
Some nodes might hinder his speed like stun immunity.
I'd you can heavy counter, it's not a problem. His specials also places the debuffs as well. Quake is also hampered by stun immunity, because it means less aftershocks for her.
Quake is literally fine on stun immune. You can still get around 10 aftershocks.
Lol, AA beats that damage easily
Quake isn’t about the damage, she’s about the utility.
Bruh Archangel is useless against bleed immune yeah. But find him a matchup that he can do and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do it better except Quake. He'll shut down their nodes, their abilities.
Most of the time AA does it faster than quake.
All of the time. It's not even a competition in regards to speed.
Some nodes might hinder his speed like stun immunity.
I'd you can heavy counter, it's not a problem. His specials also places the debuffs as well. Quake is also hampered by stun immunity, because it means less aftershocks for her.
Quake is literally fine on stun immune. You can still get around 10 aftershocks.
Lol, AA beats that damage easily
Quake isn’t about the damage, she’s about the utility.
What makes a champ amazing is being one of the best options for otherwise problem fights frequency. Like AA for champs who can be bleed, poisoned, stun. Or magneto for metal champs. Domino is rarley the best option for problem fights nowadays with these complex node combinations, which is why I think she fell off. I'd rather have a champ that can do 1/3 fights the best than a champ that can do more fights but not as well.
Bruh Archangel is useless against bleed immune yeah. But find him a matchup that he can do and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do it better except Quake. He'll shut down their nodes, their abilities.
Most of the time AA does it faster than quake.
All of the time. It's not even a competition in regards to speed.
Some nodes might hinder his speed like stun immunity.
I'd you can heavy counter, it's not a problem. His specials also places the debuffs as well. Quake is also hampered by stun immunity, because it means less aftershocks for her.
Bruh Archangel is useless against bleed immune yeah. But find him a matchup that he can do and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can do it better except Quake. He'll shut down their nodes, their abilities.
Most of the time AA does it faster than quake.
All of the time. It's not even a competition in regards to speed.
Some nodes might hinder his speed like stun immunity.
I'd you can heavy counter, it's not a problem. His specials also places the debuffs as well. Quake is also hampered by stun immunity, because it means less aftershocks for her.
Ok stun immune is slower for both but glancing, debuff purification for AA is slower. This is coming from a person who hates quake.
You have a point for glancing tho. If AA wasn't bugged against it, it'll probably just be like playing a normal fight.
As for debuff purification, AA reduces the opponent's purify chance per bleed on them. It's pretty weird against kingpin tho.
I was wondering this actually. The only way I've ever been able to get neuros on Kingpin is sp3. During my fight today with AA vs Kingpin, I'd barely get my bleeds to stick. Granted I wasnt doing many heavies but even against a Kingpin on some 5.4 chapter with buffet, I could never get any bleeds to stick. I wonder what it is, haven't read Kingpin's abilities in a while but I don't recall anything special. I'm confusion.
(Short version: tell me which criteria make champs good/bad down in discussion)
Imho, it must be combination of the things listed below:
Utility Immunity Damage Range of use/flexibility
When you get right down to it, the last one is the bottom line. I don't really judge champs in terms of good or bad. I ultimately judge them in terms of useful or not useful. You can argue if King Groot is good or bad,. All I know is I used him in Variants, so he was useful to me. I was better off for having him, and he saved me units. At the end of the day, that is all I can ask for in a champion.
Where I am in the game right now, the specifics come down to the kinds of content I am doing, which is upper level difficulty content. A good champion is one that has the tools to overcome the most problematic kinds of fights I see. That tends to be champs with immunities, champs with power control, and champs with specific abilities to counter problematic effects, like Torch does with misses, Doom does with power gain buffs, Quake does with almost everything.
Doom's power gain, power steal, SP1/SP3 cycling is a good example. Facing a lot of power gain buffs tends to be very problematic. Doom inverts that situation and turns it into a positive, where he can steal both power and power gain buffs, and use them to fuel an SP1/SP3 rotation almost with impunity. This isn't a utility vs damage thing, this is having a specific set of utility abilities that allow Doom to deliver almost continuous damage in a situation where you'd otherwise have to approach the fight in a completely different way.
Venom is another example. His damage isn't bad, but his damage alone would be unremarkable. It is his utility abilities that make his damage output interesting. He can nullify buffs with SP1, which makes him effective against problematic buffers like Medusa or The Champion. He has true strike at the end of the fight which makes him effective against IMIW. He turns off spiderman evade, which means you don't have to worry about passive evade against those champs and can just swing away. And he can heal through buff nullify which makes him more sustainable. His damage isn't top tier, but his utility allows him to deliver that damage more effectively.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to useability, and useability is determined by the kinds of content you're doing.
(Short version: tell me which criteria make champs good/bad down in discussion)
Imho, it must be combination of the things listed below:
Utility Immunity Damage Range of use/flexibility
When you get right down to it, the last one is the bottom line. I don't really judge champs in terms of good or bad. I ultimately judge them in terms of useful or not useful. You can argue if King Groot is good or bad,. All I know is I used him in Variants, so he was useful to me. I was better off for having him, and he saved me units. At the end of the day, that is all I can ask for in a champion.
Where I am in the game right now, the specifics come down to the kinds of content I am doing, which is upper level difficulty content. A good champion is one that has the tools to overcome the most problematic kinds of fights I see. That tends to be champs with immunities, champs with power control, and champs with specific abilities to counter problematic effects, like Torch does with misses, Doom does with power gain buffs, Quake does with almost everything.
Doom's power gain, power steal, SP1/SP3 cycling is a good example. Facing a lot of power gain buffs tends to be very problematic. Doom inverts that situation and turns it into a positive, where he can steal both power and power gain buffs, and use them to fuel an SP1/SP3 rotation almost with impunity. This isn't a utility vs damage thing, this is having a specific set of utility abilities that allow Doom to deliver almost continuous damage in a situation where you'd otherwise have to approach the fight in a completely different way.
Venom is another example. His damage isn't bad, but his damage alone would be unremarkable. It is his utility abilities that make his damage output interesting. He can nullify buffs with SP1, which makes him effective against problematic buffers like Medusa or The Champion. He has true strike at the end of the fight which makes him effective against IMIW. He turns off spiderman evade, which means you don't have to worry about passive evade against those champs and can just swing away. And he can heal through buff nullify which makes him more sustainable. His damage isn't top tier, but his utility allows him to deliver that damage more effectively.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to useability, and useability is determined by the kinds of content you're doing.
I could have sworn I saw @SpideyFunko's name as the person who wrote this.
I think the importance of tier list lies in managing resources especially for players still building up their roster.
Yes the game can be very lock and key at times, but I wouldn’t advise rank 5ing a low tier key unless it’s absoluelty necessary for some major progression. For example, I’d maybe suggest taking Hood to rank 5 if absolutely necessary, if only to get over the champion boss in act 6 for a single run through of it all, but otherwise a tier list would keep developing players from unnecessary wasting valuable resources. This all also very much depends on the players skill as well because it’s better to burn through boost and potions with a rank 4 in my opinion then burn through the resources to rank 5.
I will concede endgame players really shouldn’t care about tier list. Being that far into the game gives them the luxaury of ranking whatever and however many keys they feel necessary.
i dont think people should be basing their opinions on champs based on what other people think are good or not. if a champ can be used by someone, they are 'good' for them. some champs can be useful to some people and other champs can be useful to others. it depends on the person and their roster.
What makes a champ amazing is being one of the best options for otherwise problem fights frequency. Like AA for champs who can be bleed, poisoned, stun. Or magneto for metal champs. Domino is rarley the best option for problem fights nowadays with these complex node combinations, which is why I think she fell off. I'd rather have a champ that can do 1/3 fights the best than a champ that can do more fights but not as well.
I think a category missing from OP's original breakdown, but related to range of use/versatility is what you might call holistic play style. There's probably a better way to label it. But it's what some of the OG champs who have held up over the years have. The OG Visions, the Hawkeyes, the Icemen, the Magiks, Hyperions. Rotation ease is a big part of it, but it's also how the rotation melds w the champ's base kit. Doom is probably the best recent example of all parts of a champ feeling synergized in a way you can't anticipate until you use them, and the champ plays better than they read on paper. Tigra is an example where I like the champ, but the weird disconnect between heavy reach, those missing vs her long range unblockable specials makes for bit of a disconnect, champion dissonance.
I have Apoc and Prof X, and Apocalypse feels almost perfectly tuned. Professor X feels good, but not quite as holistically synergized or whatever this category would be. Some champs everything just comes together, and that's an attribute unto itself?
For me it goes down to 1. Do I like them or like using them. 2. Do they help me advance in content I'm stuck in. 3. Do they fit my playstyle or are fun to learn. Bonus points if they hit hard but not always important
Personally, I think that Domino's synergy with Red Hulk should be part of her base kit. Maybe the Red hulk synergy increases the incinerate damage to 150% of heavy damage dealt?
Damage - very high especially with suicides. Most of it is passive so that’s great against damage caps and such
Flexibility - quite flexible, as his passive damage allows him to enter lots of matchups, as well as his tentacles allows him to bypass electro, korg etc. if you run suicides his reach is extended further by his massive damage at the start of the fight. The fact that no one is immune to his death field or death spore damage is amazing. Extends his reach by a lot. He does need to be aggressive to keep the spores up, and ideally drop heavy attacks to stop them from falling off, but he’s still a great champion nonetheless. Finally he has healing on his sp1 and sp3 that can extend his reach to nodes like gimme for example, as well as just general survivability.
Why are we always trying to figure out ways to compare who's better or worse using a universal category / framework? Different champs do different things in the hands of different players For example Skilled Quake players claim she is the best champ in the game, players who can't Quake have no use for her So one could rightly claim she is the best in the game, and another could rightly claim they have no use for her There is no one size fits all
I really agree to what @Rookiie said. Best example also given of quake.
So yeah the criteria of good champs depend on player playstyle.
Comments
As for debuff purification, AA reduces the opponent's purify chance per bleed on them. It's pretty weird against kingpin tho.
Her way of playing by not having to touch the opponent bypasses a mountain of nodes including: spiked armor, thorns, any unblockable or unstoppable nodes (i.e. aspect of war), evade, miss, autoblock, freezer burn, biohazard, do not go gentle, kinetic transference, stun immunity, + more. Her 100% concussion is very good and can even shut down Stubborn AW global (momentarily) and nodes like spite.
Where I am in the game right now, the specifics come down to the kinds of content I am doing, which is upper level difficulty content. A good champion is one that has the tools to overcome the most problematic kinds of fights I see. That tends to be champs with immunities, champs with power control, and champs with specific abilities to counter problematic effects, like Torch does with misses, Doom does with power gain buffs, Quake does with almost everything.
Doom's power gain, power steal, SP1/SP3 cycling is a good example. Facing a lot of power gain buffs tends to be very problematic. Doom inverts that situation and turns it into a positive, where he can steal both power and power gain buffs, and use them to fuel an SP1/SP3 rotation almost with impunity. This isn't a utility vs damage thing, this is having a specific set of utility abilities that allow Doom to deliver almost continuous damage in a situation where you'd otherwise have to approach the fight in a completely different way.
Venom is another example. His damage isn't bad, but his damage alone would be unremarkable. It is his utility abilities that make his damage output interesting. He can nullify buffs with SP1, which makes him effective against problematic buffers like Medusa or The Champion. He has true strike at the end of the fight which makes him effective against IMIW. He turns off spiderman evade, which means you don't have to worry about passive evade against those champs and can just swing away. And he can heal through buff nullify which makes him more sustainable. His damage isn't top tier, but his utility allows him to deliver that damage more effectively.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to useability, and useability is determined by the kinds of content you're doing.
It depends what the forum says.
Yes the game can be very lock and key at times, but I wouldn’t advise rank 5ing a low tier key unless it’s absoluelty necessary for some major progression. For example, I’d maybe suggest taking Hood to rank 5 if absolutely necessary, if only to get over the champion boss in act 6 for a single run through of it all, but otherwise a tier list would keep developing players from unnecessary wasting valuable resources. This all also very much depends on the players skill as well because it’s better to burn through boost and potions with a rank 4 in my opinion then burn through the resources to rank 5.
I will concede endgame players really shouldn’t care about tier list. Being that far into the game gives them the luxaury of ranking whatever and however many keys they feel necessary.
If you think they're bad then they're bad.
Thats my 2 cents..lol
I have Apoc and Prof X, and Apocalypse feels almost perfectly tuned. Professor X feels good, but not quite as holistically synergized or whatever this category would be. Some champs everything just comes together, and that's an attribute unto itself?
Utility - lots. Mediums ignore damage back, spores stop purify abilities.
Immunity - poison, 90% resistant to bleed
Damage - very high especially with suicides. Most of it is passive so that’s great against damage caps and such
Flexibility - quite flexible, as his passive damage allows him to enter lots of matchups, as well as his tentacles allows him to bypass electro, korg etc. if you run suicides his reach is extended further by his massive damage at the start of the fight. The fact that no one is immune to his death field or death spore damage is amazing. Extends his reach by a lot. He does need to be aggressive to keep the spores up, and ideally drop heavy attacks to stop them from falling off, but he’s still a great champion nonetheless. Finally he has healing on his sp1 and sp3 that can extend his reach to nodes like gimme for example, as well as just general survivability.
Is this what you mean @Kerneas?
Best example also given of quake.
So yeah the criteria of good champs depend on player playstyle.
I don't know what made domino haters hate her
Really surprised for hate of domino in the community