Do you agree with kabam John?

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Comments

  • PulyamanPulyaman Posts: 1,233 ★★★★
    DrZola said:

    DrZola said:

    I like all of these debates. They are fun to think about.

    A few observations:

    1) For many players hitting/near the TB threshold, there isn’t a “utility vs. damage” choice (see @Haji_Saab ) because their T5c-Roster match doesn’t allow it. Which means all of this is mostly academic. Players instead suck it up and R3 someone so they can unlock the promise of TB spoils (which may be a bit of a letdown—see some of my other posts).

    Nevertheless...all this discussion is neat in a “how many angels could fit on the head of a pin” kind of way. Unless you are swimming in 6*’s, you rank the best options you have with the greatest expected longevity at the moment.

    2) With a little margin for disagreement, there is likely a set of champs the vast majority of players agree to be “acceptable” R3 candidates. There’s also a set of champs the vast majority would consider horrible R3 choices. If certain champs (using the current featured as example, Green Goblin, Dormammu, e.g.) admittedly don’t offer anywhere near the right mix of damage/utility, the question I always return to is why does the team insist on including them in things like featured crystals? What’s the rationale for a wide deviation, gatcha-style payout in some of the game’s most valued loot box/random prizes? Perhaps MCoC really does run on crestfallen Summoner tears...

    3) Going back to the first examples in this thread...Magneto is a bad example of the damage/utility trade off. Doc Ock is a great one that Kabam John should have used instead.

    Dr. Zola

    Just with regards to magneto, John didn’t actually use him as an example for this and people have taken it and run with it. What he said with magneto is actually that there isn’t much difference in his damage at r2 or r3, he said something along the lines of “what am I gonna get from an r3 mags instead of r2, oh yeah I oneshot an enemy with 25 prowess instead of 30”. His point being not that his utility was lacking, rather that he would crush the opponent on the first hit of his special rather 3 than the second.



    If you go to 17.00 mins in you’ll hear the convo. The convo about damage vs utility is more around the 11.40 mark.

    People have just mixed up his two points and taken it to mean that he thinks Mags has bad utility
    That’s fair. Still not the example I would have used, but his point is a reasonable one.

    For me, it’s more nuanced than damage or utility. But I’m lucky to have decent options remaining across most classes, so I’m not the best data point.

    A binary approach, however, feels like something a new or less advanced player would use.

    Simplistically, the point is dealing damage vs. avoiding damage, but the factors that go into each category are much more varied than that. Hard to get into all that in a YT chat...

    Dr. Zola
    Again, I am not going to use Doc ok unless I require power control. He does not compare with other damage dealers in regular matchups. What does he give me at rank 3 instead of at rank 2?. He can control power just as well in rank 2 because that is his main utility. Compare that with a champ like corvus or cge whose damage increases with rank and it makes sense to R3 them. I agree with magneto though, he hits just as hard as R2 as R3 since his sp3 deals so much damage, it won't make much of a difference.
  • AleorAleor Posts: 2,573 ★★★★

    Aleor said:

    @BitterSteel
    Falcon already has ok damage in evade fights. Where else would you use him? Honestly, I don't know. Ghost can be used for so many fights, and she also can deal with evade fights easily. Choosing falcon over ghost doesn't really make scene.
    Same for Nick actually imo. Say you have both r3. There are not many fights to use falcon over furry, and it's not like one rank up bumps his damage a lot. You can probably use even a small boost once you need falcon, those are always expiring anyway

    I use Falcon in war all the time. I’ve faced 5 or 6 r3 Thing bosses and soloed every time, the most recent with 89% health remaining. His damage is incredible, his utility is one of the best in the game.

    Falcon is meant to be an evade counter sure, but people overlook that locked on gets rid of every single defensive ability in the game, excluding enhanced abilities. That is insane utility. No evades, no rock stacks, no limbo, no thorns. Nothing.
    Wouldn't r3 Nick be just as good for thing? Bleeds remove rock stacks just fine, for thorns his bleed and disorient should be fine, for limbo - disorient again. And falcon super phase has a cooldown
  • The_Sentry06The_Sentry06 Posts: 4,998 ★★★★★
    Aleor said:

    Aleor said:

    @BitterSteel
    Falcon already has ok damage in evade fights. Where else would you use him? Honestly, I don't know. Ghost can be used for so many fights, and she also can deal with evade fights easily. Choosing falcon over ghost doesn't really make scene.
    Same for Nick actually imo. Say you have both r3. There are not many fights to use falcon over furry, and it's not like one rank up bumps his damage a lot. You can probably use even a small boost once you need falcon, those are always expiring anyway

    I use Falcon in war all the time. I’ve faced 5 or 6 r3 Thing bosses and soloed every time, the most recent with 89% health remaining. His damage is incredible, his utility is one of the best in the game.

    Falcon is meant to be an evade counter sure, but people overlook that locked on gets rid of every single defensive ability in the game, excluding enhanced abilities. That is insane utility. No evades, no rock stacks, no limbo, no thorns. Nothing.
    Wouldn't r3 Nick be just as good for thing? Bleeds remove rock stacks just fine, for thorns his bleed and disorient should be fine, for limbo - disorient again. And falcon super phase has a cooldown
    Cooldown is not as long as it seems and falcon ignores nodes completely. In places without evade, his sig ability really helps out with Damage. Plus it's much easier than spamming sp1 and reduces AAR by 100% rather than 70%.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 3,726 ★★★★★
    Aleor said:

    Aleor said:

    @BitterSteel
    Falcon already has ok damage in evade fights. Where else would you use him? Honestly, I don't know. Ghost can be used for so many fights, and she also can deal with evade fights easily. Choosing falcon over ghost doesn't really make scene.
    Same for Nick actually imo. Say you have both r3. There are not many fights to use falcon over furry, and it's not like one rank up bumps his damage a lot. You can probably use even a small boost once you need falcon, those are always expiring anyway

    I use Falcon in war all the time. I’ve faced 5 or 6 r3 Thing bosses and soloed every time, the most recent with 89% health remaining. His damage is incredible, his utility is one of the best in the game.

    Falcon is meant to be an evade counter sure, but people overlook that locked on gets rid of every single defensive ability in the game, excluding enhanced abilities. That is insane utility. No evades, no rock stacks, no limbo, no thorns. Nothing.
    Wouldn't r3 Nick be just as good for thing? Bleeds remove rock stacks just fine, for thorns his bleed and disorient should be fine, for limbo - disorient again. And falcon super phase has a cooldown
    R3 Nick wouldn’t have the damage I don’t think sometimes to keep up with falcon. Falcon is way easier for thorns and stuff, his cool down is almost nothing. You can stall easily with a parry or two, or if stun immune hit into block.

    Nick would not be just as good. He would be ok, but there is almost never a situation I’d take Nick against thing over falcon.

    Plus, Nick’s disorient is only 70%, and it only lasts for 8 seconds, not to mention some of that time is sp1 duration. By the time it’s over you have like 5/6 seconds left
  • Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 1,722 ★★★★

    So
    Vision Aou Duped deserves a Rank 3 6* or not ??
    Can pump 100 signatures in him at the moment

    I’m debating mines as well
  • Rayaan_2000Rayaan_2000 Posts: 653 ★★★
    edited February 22
    Aleor said:

    @BitterSteel
    Falcon already has ok damage in evade fights. Where else would you use him? Honestly, I don't know. Ghost can be used for so many fights, and she also can deal with evade fights easily. Choosing falcon over ghost doesn't really make scene.
    Same for Nick actually imo. Say you have both r3. There are not many fights to use falcon over furry, and it's not like one rank up bumps his damage a lot. You can probably use even a small boost once you need falcon, those are always expiring anyway

    You have no idea of the power of falcon



  • AleorAleor Posts: 2,573 ★★★★

    Aleor said:

    @BitterSteel
    Falcon already has ok damage in evade fights. Where else would you use him? Honestly, I don't know. Ghost can be used for so many fights, and she also can deal with evade fights easily. Choosing falcon over ghost doesn't really make scene.
    Same for Nick actually imo. Say you have both r3. There are not many fights to use falcon over furry, and it's not like one rank up bumps his damage a lot. You can probably use even a small boost once you need falcon, those are always expiring anyway

    You have no idea of the power of falcon



    Those that are any important and cannot be played around with any champ:
    Sasquatch
    Electro
    Abom
    Km
    Korg
    Nova
    Fury
    Magik
    Sham/sgwen

    Any other is easy most of the time. Like htd and g99 are only difficult, if stun immune. Would I rank falcon to stop htd regen in aol? I guess it's an obvious no. Why would I use him for abom, when there's ton of poison immune characters? Who even struggles to fight deadpools, red guardian or cage?
    As for nodes, spiked armour, thorns and mesmerize don't have that many counters. As for biohazard and things like that, personally would always prefer smbd, who has immunities during all the fight. Same reason I dislike corvus - once cooldown starts, you can't fight. And iirc, his damage only ramps in evade fights, so...
  • CorkscrewCorkscrew Posts: 154
    HI_guys said:



    Damage vs utility

    If he wasn't getting perfect blocks, would it have been that easy? Because as far as I can tell it was a critical part of the solo. For much of the time that he was unstoppable, he was stunned. This changes the fight a lot, you can damage him while he's in that state. More importantly, you're not evading him as much and you're not getting backed into the corner. Perfect block is utility.

    I'm not saying it wasn't a skillful fight, far from it. It showcases perfectly how to use sunspot in an atypical matchup. I'm also sure that if he wasn't dealing as much damage as he was, it may not have gone so smoothly over time. He absolutely nailed those dex charges as well.

    What if we talked about a pure damage dealer like Starlord? Setting class disadvantage aside, dealing with the Champion being unstoppable is going to make it very tough. Sure, there is going to be someone who can do that fight, but the average player is not going to take that kind of champion into that fight and do well.

    Sunspot is known as a damage dealer, but it was his utility that made that fight the way it was.
  • CorkscrewCorkscrew Posts: 154
    HI_guys said:

    Corkscrew said:

    HI_guys said:



    Damage vs utility

    If he wasn't getting perfect blocks, would it have been that easy? Because as far as I can tell it was a critical part of the solo. For much of the time that he was unstoppable, he was stunned. This changes the fight a lot, you can damage him while he's in that state. More importantly, you're not evading him as much and you're not getting backed into the corner. Perfect block is utility.

    I'm not saying it wasn't a skillful fight, far from it. It showcases perfectly how to use sunspot in an atypical matchup. I'm also sure that if he wasn't dealing as much damage as he was, it may not have gone so smoothly over time. He absolutely nailed those dex charges as well.

    What if we talked about a pure damage dealer like Starlord? Setting class disadvantage aside, dealing with the Champion being unstoppable is going to make it very tough. Sure, there is going to be someone who can do that fight, but the average player is not going to take that kind of champion into that fight and do well.

    Sunspot is known as a damage dealer, but it was his utility that made that fight the way it was.
    You also have Chris like colossus and corvus glaive doing the fight. They have none of these
    And these are being used by the Joe Average? Or they're being showcased by elite players? Because I pointed out there is going to be someone skilled enough to do it with Starlord, just like there are uber skilled players doing 3 star challenges in places where the average player would tank the fight with 5 and 6 star champs.

    Skill is a factor that can't be ignored. The best players often make what would seem to mere mortals unwinnable, not just winnable, but a cakewalk.

    The Champion is a fight that you can't just use Unitman, at some point if you can't get the dex charges, you will never finish that fight. But a utility counter has a much easier time than a damage dealer. Skill can negate the need for a utility champ. But for Joe Average, if Unit Man isn't the answer, then they need the utility.

    You haven't really made your case.
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