Lessons learned

Colonaut123Colonaut123 Member Posts: 3,091 ★★★★★
edited March 2021 in Suggestions and Requests
I believe the Hood controversy wasn't in vain. Both sides learned valuable lessons.

We've learnt although not every champion is god tier, there are middle-tier champions who do have merit and dedicated players who have mastered those forgotten champions.

As a community, we were able to rally for a cause that might not directly impacted everyone equally, but in doing so, we've found unity.

But, we might not be as lucky next time. With tier lists left and right, we as a community neglected champions who aren't maybe good enough in our eyes, but are not necessarily bad. Flawed at best, these are true diamonds in the rough.

It created a climate that lead Kabam to believe those champions have no value at all. That a great reset was needed. We focused on the negative, rather than the positive.

It isn't enough to point at the flaws, but also where that champion shines. Don't we all have that one (or more?) champion everyone disregards, but that only you see the gold underneath that just needs some polishing? That you like for its unique animations or abilities, but find it a shame it is as it is now?

Kabam can't read minds. They don't know what we as a community like. We've been given a second chance.

The Suggestions forum has been pretty dead. Why not have a dedicated discussion for each champion, where a champion is dissected to its core? Where fans can gather and exchange their vision of the future of this champion? Where Kabam developers can be inspired and design a community-supported buff? One that keeps what's good?

It started with one Hood. It doesn't have to end with the Hood.
Post edited by Kabam Ahab on
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Comments

  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Member Posts: 3,091 ★★★★★
    SWORD78 said:

    Yes I do think Karnak Should Be Buffed

    Karnak and many more!
  • KRoNX1KRoNX1 Member Posts: 1,089 ★★★★
    J0eySn0w said:

    KRoNX1 said:

    I use dormammu a lot. Ill be happy if he gets a number buff. Just number buff .

    Someone is scared lol

    Edit:
    I felt a bit sad when I saw the Hood pop-up message, like the effort and work Kabam put into him gone, but that's normal, it's called running a company.
    I don't know if the community ever expressed this: though not a Hood user, I appreciate the thought and work Kabam put into it. In their own way, they were trying to do something cool with the character for users, just not what we wanted. Still, a thing or two learnt on both sides.
    I am definitely scared . I used to ask for a tune up fro dormammu but after the recent incident , I am a bit reluctant tbh.
  • The_Sentry06The_Sentry06 Member Posts: 7,787 ★★★★★
    J0eySn0w said:

    KRoNX1 said:

    I use dormammu a lot. Ill be happy if he gets a number buff. Just number buff .

    Someone is scared lol

    Edit:
    I felt a bit sad when I saw the Hood pop-up message, like the effort and work Kabam put into him gone, but that's normal, it's called running a company.
    I don't know if the community ever expressed this: though not a Hood user, I appreciate the thought and work Kabam put into it. In their own way, they were trying to do something cool with the character for users, just not what we wanted. Still, a thing or two learnt on both sides.
    Yep. They put in some work creating new icons and stuff and now it might be gone to waste. However, what to do. Hood cannpt be changed like that.
  • 007md92007md92 Member Posts: 1,381 ★★★★
    edited March 2021
    Glassback said:

    You hit the nail on the head with this one mate.

    Youtubers and whales change the meta by pushing certain champs and we follow suit.

    Champs then get forgotten while people are still using them.

    Hood was the perfect example here.

    On point. This whole tier list has both negetive and positive side.
    People don't even try to explore or learn before they reject a champ.
    Instead remove tier list completely.
    And give out honest review and usage for champs.
    Even iniside youtubers it's not like they can play every champ.
    Many are not quake players. But quake is such an useful and creative champ.
    Vivid example.
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  • KRoNX1KRoNX1 Member Posts: 1,089 ★★★★
    Tier lists r mainly intended for progressing players who doesnt know which champs r good and bad. In the progressing period , they have to be really careful on which champs they use their resources on. Moreover its kind of like the opinion of a specific youtuber. U have the choice to listen to them or no.
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  • ChikelChikel Member Posts: 2,106 ★★★★
    SWORD78 said:

    Yes I do think Karnak Should Be Buffed

    I pulled him yesterday and I couldn't agree more
  • 007md92007md92 Member Posts: 1,381 ★★★★
    HI_guys said:

    007md92 said:

    Glassback said:

    You hit the nail on the head with this one mate.

    Youtubers and whales change the meta by pushing certain champs and we follow suit.

    Champs then get forgotten while people are still using them.

    Hood was the perfect example here.

    Instead remove tier list completely.
    .
    And just how do you propose we do that?
    It's just a list. People can choose not to follow it.
    Instead of putting out tier list may be youtuber can provide with champion play style.
    U can follow UKM and jason V .. they usually make very detailed good tutorial for how to use.
    That way champs like hood used by many but not usual utubers doesn't gets sidelined and this mess happens.
    Although i still believe this buff was amazing.
    They should have just kept it and added the fate seal.
  • ChikelChikel Member Posts: 2,106 ★★★★
    KRoNX1 said:

    Tier lists r mainly intended for progressing players who doesnt know which champs r good and bad. In the progressing period , they have to be really careful on which champs they use their resources on. Moreover its kind of like the opinion of a specific youtuber. U have the choice to listen to them or no.

    Yea. WHen I started, I knew nothing and ranked up a couple of memes. Had it not been for tier lists, I would have ranked up even more and would be worse off for it. New players need to pay attention to tier lists or they will make painful mistakes. You eventually outgrow them though. I haven't checked the tier lists since I started Act 5
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  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Member Posts: 3,091 ★★★★★



    Kabam can't read minds. They don't know what we as a community like. .

    I really like your suggestion on having a sticky page per champion to dissect and discuss them. However, every single one of them will be derailed by you know who....

    That aside, kabam can't read minds, but they can see all the data which does indeed show what we as a community do and don't like. They will be able to see that not a single cav+ player, uses og iron Man, the two caps, beast and a plethora of others, except as, at best, synergy fillers and arena fodder.

    They have the data, but they need rubbish and middle of the range champs in the pool to keep the gamblers gambling!
    Discussion is unavoidable. The overall benefit outweighs the potential of derailment.

    Numbers don't say everything, certain champions are used for one specific situation (Ronan for instant). In the numbers he will perform badly, but where he's used, there is no better. The trick is to buff him that he is expanded outside those situations, but keeping his current use the same.
  • Mr_PlatypusMr_Platypus Member Posts: 2,779 ★★★★★
    edited March 2021
    KRoNX1 said:

    I use dormammu a lot. Ill be happy if he gets a number buff. Just number buff .

    Honestly I’d use Dormammu a lot more if his block proficiency was increased.
    Wouldn’t say no to increasing the detonation damage either though.
  • OrdersixtysixOrdersixtysix Member Posts: 11
    That’s the thing champs like hood are overshadowed by champs like tigra doom and ss but when that overshadowed champ gets a buff everyone seems to magically have been using them. Which is funny because it’s not the average joe player that says it, it’s the whales and youtubers that wanna control the game how they see fit
  • KRoNX1KRoNX1 Member Posts: 1,089 ★★★★

    KRoNX1 said:

    I use dormammu a lot. Ill be happy if he gets a number buff. Just number buff .

    Honestly I’d use Dormammu a lot more if his block proficiency was increased.
    Wouldn’t say no to increasing the detonation damage either though.
    Yeah , thats true. Since the fight takes really long, its a very important factor. I go with sp 3 cycle and heal a bit to keep up with block damage.
  • BeastDadBeastDad Member Posts: 1,906 ★★★★★
    The real question is, why are so many characters absolutely garbage and of no use whatsoever? I am not talking about middle tier guys, I'm talking about the lowest of the low that have no utility to speak of. There shouldn't be characters that are just utterly useless.
  • J0eySn0wJ0eySn0w Member Posts: 979 ★★★★
    KRoNX1 said:

    J0eySn0w said:

    KRoNX1 said:

    I use dormammu a lot. Ill be happy if he gets a number buff. Just number buff .

    Someone is scared lol

    Edit:
    I felt a bit sad when I saw the Hood pop-up message, like the effort and work Kabam put into him gone, but that's normal, it's called running a company.
    I don't know if the community ever expressed this: though not a Hood user, I appreciate the thought and work Kabam put into it. In their own way, they were trying to do something cool with the character for users, just not what we wanted. Still, a thing or two learnt on both sides.
    I am definitely scared . I used to ask for a tune up fro dormammu but after the recent incident , I am a bit reluctant tbh.
    With Hood incident, I think they'll factor in core utility and mechanics when working on champs. I hope it doesn't affect the work they put in newer buffs, as they've been doing. That will be bad on their part, a little failure doesn't merit giving up or not doing your best. Overall, a decent amount of the buffs are awesome and others are cool. The only fails in my books are DDHK and Hood, that's just my opinion. For some reason, I'm hoping DDHK regen thingy is fixed, never know.
  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Member Posts: 3,091 ★★★★★

    KRoNX1 said:

    I use dormammu a lot. Ill be happy if he gets a number buff. Just number buff .

    Honestly I’d use Dormammu a lot more if his block proficiency was increased.
    Wouldn’t say no to increasing the detonation damage either though.
    I think some attribute and ability changes are in order. I would like to have his power burn permanently.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,693 Guardian

    Why not have a dedicated discussion for each champion, where a champion is dissected to its core? Where fans can gather and exchange their vision of the future of this champion? Where Kabam developers can be inspired and design a community-supported buff? One that keeps what's good?

    The thought has crossed my mind as well. I can think of a lot of champions that are possibly or likely underperforming in the data, but have core elements I would not want messed with. For example:

    King Groot: tankiness, stackable permanent armor breaks
    Dormammu: power control, degen
    Vision: power control, power burn, heal block
    Elektra: DAA, assasins
    Karnak: True Strike
    Taskmaster: AAR, debuff potency mitigation
    Sentry: uh, give me a minute here.

    The one problem I see here is that we don't know when updates are on the horizon for individual champs, and almost by definition the champs in jeopardy the most are the ones with few advocates, so those dedicated threads could go cold quickly. And even after Hood, we can't preserve everything so one player mentioning one thing for one champ by itself can't prevent the devs from changing something. There has to be a very compelling reason to believe the functionality is important enough, and valued enough, to qualify for protection. That's going to be tricky to drum up support for, and sustain, over potentially a long period of time.

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  • DrZolaDrZola Member Posts: 9,131 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Why not have a dedicated discussion for each champion, where a champion is dissected to its core? Where fans can gather and exchange their vision of the future of this champion? Where Kabam developers can be inspired and design a community-supported buff? One that keeps what's good?

    The thought has crossed my mind as well. I can think of a lot of champions that are possibly or likely underperforming in the data, but have core elements I would not want messed with. For example:

    King Groot: tankiness, stackable permanent armor breaks
    Dormammu: power control, degen
    Vision: power control, power burn, heal block
    Elektra: DAA, assasins
    Karnak: True Strike
    Taskmaster: AAR, debuff potency mitigation
    Sentry: uh, give me a minute here.

    The one problem I see here is that we don't know when updates are on the horizon for individual champs, and almost by definition the champs in jeopardy the most are the ones with few advocates, so those dedicated threads could go cold quickly. And even after Hood, we can't preserve everything so one player mentioning one thing for one champ by itself can't prevent the devs from changing something. There has to be a very compelling reason to believe the functionality is important enough, and valued enough, to qualify for protection. That's going to be tricky to drum up support for, and sustain, over potentially a long period of time.

    Why not have the team share their “dirty dozen” that are currently on their radar?

    No obligations or commitments, just a set of champs that they (and probably we) would consider among the tune up pool? I’d be shocked if they couldn’t see which champs are primarily used by lower level players when there is no other option. They usually say they have the data.

    Solicit serious input, police the thread to remove moronic comments and firefights and maybe get some actionable material from actual players.

    Dr. Zola
  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Member Posts: 3,091 ★★★★★
    DrZola said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Why not have a dedicated discussion for each champion, where a champion is dissected to its core? Where fans can gather and exchange their vision of the future of this champion? Where Kabam developers can be inspired and design a community-supported buff? One that keeps what's good?

    The thought has crossed my mind as well. I can think of a lot of champions that are possibly or likely underperforming in the data, but have core elements I would not want messed with. For example:

    King Groot: tankiness, stackable permanent armor breaks
    Dormammu: power control, degen
    Vision: power control, power burn, heal block
    Elektra: DAA, assasins
    Karnak: True Strike
    Taskmaster: AAR, debuff potency mitigation
    Sentry: uh, give me a minute here.

    The one problem I see here is that we don't know when updates are on the horizon for individual champs, and almost by definition the champs in jeopardy the most are the ones with few advocates, so those dedicated threads could go cold quickly. And even after Hood, we can't preserve everything so one player mentioning one thing for one champ by itself can't prevent the devs from changing something. There has to be a very compelling reason to believe the functionality is important enough, and valued enough, to qualify for protection. That's going to be tricky to drum up support for, and sustain, over potentially a long period of time.

    Why not have the team share their “dirty dozen” that are currently on their radar?

    No obligations or commitments, just a set of champs that they (and probably we) would consider among the tune up pool? I’d be shocked if they couldn’t see which champs are primarily used by lower level players when there is no other option. They usually say they have the data.

    Solicit serious input, police the thread to remove moronic comments and firefights and maybe get some actionable material from actual players.

    Dr. Zola
    I agree. I can't imagine Kabam doesn't know two to three months before which champion they will buff. That should be more than enough time for forum users and content creators to share their thoughts.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,693 Guardian

    DrZola said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Why not have a dedicated discussion for each champion, where a champion is dissected to its core? Where fans can gather and exchange their vision of the future of this champion? Where Kabam developers can be inspired and design a community-supported buff? One that keeps what's good?

    The thought has crossed my mind as well. I can think of a lot of champions that are possibly or likely underperforming in the data, but have core elements I would not want messed with. For example:

    King Groot: tankiness, stackable permanent armor breaks
    Dormammu: power control, degen
    Vision: power control, power burn, heal block
    Elektra: DAA, assasins
    Karnak: True Strike
    Taskmaster: AAR, debuff potency mitigation
    Sentry: uh, give me a minute here.

    The one problem I see here is that we don't know when updates are on the horizon for individual champs, and almost by definition the champs in jeopardy the most are the ones with few advocates, so those dedicated threads could go cold quickly. And even after Hood, we can't preserve everything so one player mentioning one thing for one champ by itself can't prevent the devs from changing something. There has to be a very compelling reason to believe the functionality is important enough, and valued enough, to qualify for protection. That's going to be tricky to drum up support for, and sustain, over potentially a long period of time.

    Why not have the team share their “dirty dozen” that are currently on their radar?

    No obligations or commitments, just a set of champs that they (and probably we) would consider among the tune up pool? I’d be shocked if they couldn’t see which champs are primarily used by lower level players when there is no other option. They usually say they have the data.

    Solicit serious input, police the thread to remove moronic comments and firefights and maybe get some actionable material from actual players.

    Dr. Zola
    I agree. I can't imagine Kabam doesn't know two to three months before which champion they will buff. That should be more than enough time for forum users and content creators to share their thoughts.
    Yes and no. They probably know quite a bit ahead of time, but two things make this less straight forward. First, for player feedback to be reasonably easily incorporated into new designs or updates it has to occur early in the process, before they start setting the overall idea behind the updates. But conversely, I suspect not all updates make it past the whiteboard: sometimes they just aren't happy with the ideas they come up with, sometimes what they want to do is something the game engine cannot accommodate, or there's some other reason why a specific update might get pushed back indefinitely.

    So if they say here's what we're going to update in a couple months that might be too late in the process to gather feedback. But if they say here's what we're going to update in six months that might set up players to be disappointed when it doesn't happen. I suspect it is more likely they will do some kind of closed preview for a set of players, such that they can ask those players for feedback and they can tell those players not to discuss them just in case they don't materialize so as to not disappoint the wider player community. They have done things like this in the past where players were informed of potential upcoming changes and asked for feedback. Like a closed beta, but with no beta server (because nothing to test).
  • PulyamanPulyaman Member Posts: 2,365 ★★★★★
    I was actually very surprised very few supported when I was against Kingpin having Rage as a debuff. It was a core mechanic and everyone was so in awe of his damage and synergies that they looked over that Kabam changed something fundamental that made him a less optimal choice for many fights. At least Hood is getting a better rework.
  • PulyamanPulyaman Member Posts: 2,365 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    DrZola said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Why not have a dedicated discussion for each champion, where a champion is dissected to its core? Where fans can gather and exchange their vision of the future of this champion? Where Kabam developers can be inspired and design a community-supported buff? One that keeps what's good?

    The thought has crossed my mind as well. I can think of a lot of champions that are possibly or likely underperforming in the data, but have core elements I would not want messed with. For example:

    King Groot: tankiness, stackable permanent armor breaks
    Dormammu: power control, degen
    Vision: power control, power burn, heal block
    Elektra: DAA, assasins
    Karnak: True Strike
    Taskmaster: AAR, debuff potency mitigation
    Sentry: uh, give me a minute here.

    The one problem I see here is that we don't know when updates are on the horizon for individual champs, and almost by definition the champs in jeopardy the most are the ones with few advocates, so those dedicated threads could go cold quickly. And even after Hood, we can't preserve everything so one player mentioning one thing for one champ by itself can't prevent the devs from changing something. There has to be a very compelling reason to believe the functionality is important enough, and valued enough, to qualify for protection. That's going to be tricky to drum up support for, and sustain, over potentially a long period of time.

    Why not have the team share their “dirty dozen” that are currently on their radar?

    No obligations or commitments, just a set of champs that they (and probably we) would consider among the tune up pool? I’d be shocked if they couldn’t see which champs are primarily used by lower level players when there is no other option. They usually say they have the data.

    Solicit serious input, police the thread to remove moronic comments and firefights and maybe get some actionable material from actual players.

    Dr. Zola
    I agree. I can't imagine Kabam doesn't know two to three months before which champion they will buff. That should be more than enough time for forum users and content creators to share their thoughts.
    Yes and no. They probably know quite a bit ahead of time, but two things make this less straight forward. First, for player feedback to be reasonably easily incorporated into new designs or updates it has to occur early in the process, before they start setting the overall idea behind the updates. But conversely, I suspect not all updates make it past the whiteboard: sometimes they just aren't happy with the ideas they come up with, sometimes what they want to do is something the game engine cannot accommodate, or there's some other reason why a specific update might get pushed back indefinitely.

    So if they say here's what we're going to update in a couple months that might be too late in the process to gather feedback. But if they say here's what we're going to update in six months that might set up players to be disappointed when it doesn't happen. I suspect it is more likely they will do some kind of closed preview for a set of players, such that they can ask those players for feedback and they can tell those players not to discuss them just in case they don't materialize so as to not disappoint the wider player community. They have done things like this in the past where players were informed of potential upcoming changes and asked for feedback. Like a closed beta, but with no beta server (because nothing to test).
    I am hoping they announce the champions a little early than the planned release notes. I get that many people get hyped and get disappointed when the change does not meet the expectation, but that is going to be the case anyhow. I thought magneto was released to CCP and they beta tested before release. They could do that for future champs also.
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