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When champ buffs hurt more than they help

TitoBandito187TitoBandito187 Posts: 2,072 ★★★★
in General Discussion
Not a complaint, but an observation. Especially for those finishing act 7.1 exploration, which overall, really isn't that bad. However certain champs buffs have made some fights more of a pain, so wanted to point them out for others.



So, Angela is kind of a sucky fight on this node now, if you don't have 5* duped Ronan for the cheese.

Is she impossible, no, but now it's a long, boring fight... taking increased block damage as the furies stack up and the fight drags on without the poison damage boost (she just ignores DoT entirely now).

Not impossible, and a heal block champ like warlock helps, but I feel like it's a different matchup than it was originally designed for and not nearly as fun now.



Civil warrior, specifically in 7.1.4, also is much less enjoyable since his buff. Thank goodness for magneto. Their are other armor break champs who can get it done, but his increased abilities with armor ups, make this a different fight too.

Are either of these impossible? Again, No. Are they worse to fight now that their abilities have been updated. Yes, in some cases since the nodes didn't/don't take into consideration their new abilities.

I know we've already seen this from other buffs (magneto, yellow jacket, etc), but these 2 kind of kill the original node design for those paths/champs.
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Comments

  • QfuryQfury Posts: 1,860 ★★★★★
    TitoBandito187 said:

    Not a complaint, but an observation. Especially for those finishing act 7.1 exploration, which overall, really isn't that bad. However certain champs buffs have made some fights more of a pain, so wanted to point them out for others.



    So, Angela is kind of a sucky fight on this node now, if you don't have 5* duped Ronan for the cheese.

    Is she impossible, no, but now it's a long, boring fight... taking increased block damage as the furies stack up and the fight drags on without the poison damage boost (she just ignores DoT entirely now).

    Not impossible, and a heal block champ like warlock helps, but I feel like it's a different matchup than it was originally designed for and not nearly as fun now.



    Civil warrior, specifically in 7.1.4, also is much less enjoyable since his buff. Thank goodness for magneto. Their are other armor break champs who can get it done, but his increased abilities with armor ups, make this a different fight too.

    Are either of these impossible? Again, No. Are they worse to fight now that their abilities have been updated. Yes, in some cases since the nodes didn't/don't take into consideration their new abilities.

    I know we've already seen this from other buffs (magneto, yellow jacket, etc), but these 2 kind of kill the original node design for those paths/champs.

    I've got the civil warrior path coming up soon I have a 6* R2 magneto or would medusa be a better fit? If he's armour shattered he can't re gain armour correct?
  • TitoBandito187TitoBandito187 Posts: 2,072 ★★★★
    Qfury said:

    TitoBandito187 said:

    Not a complaint, but an observation. Especially for those finishing act 7.1 exploration, which overall, really isn't that bad. However certain champs buffs have made some fights more of a pain, so wanted to point them out for others.



    So, Angela is kind of a sucky fight on this node now, if you don't have 5* duped Ronan for the cheese.

    Is she impossible, no, but now it's a long, boring fight... taking increased block damage as the furies stack up and the fight drags on without the poison damage boost (she just ignores DoT entirely now).

    Not impossible, and a heal block champ like warlock helps, but I feel like it's a different matchup than it was originally designed for and not nearly as fun now.



    Civil warrior, specifically in 7.1.4, also is much less enjoyable since his buff. Thank goodness for magneto. Their are other armor break champs who can get it done, but his increased abilities with armor ups, make this a different fight too.

    Are either of these impossible? Again, No. Are they worse to fight now that their abilities have been updated. Yes, in some cases since the nodes didn't/don't take into consideration their new abilities.

    I know we've already seen this from other buffs (magneto, yellow jacket, etc), but these 2 kind of kill the original node design for those paths/champs.

    I've got the civil warrior path coming up soon I have a 6* R2 magneto or would medusa be a better fit? If he's armour shattered he can't re gain armour correct?
    Even with armor shatter active, he was gaining armor ups from the arc overload 2.2 buff on that node.

    Magneto worked pretty well since he has AAR reduction and throwing a sp2 got the armor breaks and just tried to keep them active, but this fight is going to be more intercept than parry. Punish his specials, back draft intercept, avoid special and repeat.

    I just did that path yesterday and was more focused on not dying from all the unblockable ttiggering, but wish I would have recorded it.

    I'd bring magneto and medusa for that path. CMM is gonna be tough to build up charges of you can't parry often. Venoms heavy was also helpful for some of the path.

    BPCW is also kind of a pain because of the stun reflect so no parries on that one either.
  • TitoBandito187TitoBandito187 Posts: 2,072 ★★★★
    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Worknprogress said:

    Champs buffs always have been and always will be doubled edged swords. You can't legitimately expect them to go back through every piece of content and change every fight for every buffed champ. As long as they're still possible, that's just going to be a side effect of these. It's one of the reasons I've always said be careful what you wish for when it comes to buffs.

    Didn't seem like OP wanted them changed, only letting people know that these fights are different now due to their abilities being different.

    Correct.

    Although there are instances where defenders can remain retro as well, so it is possible to only apply changes to new content. One example would be ROL black bolt. I also saw one in our favor on youtube yesterday that I'll refrain from mentioning in the forum.
  • TitoBandito187TitoBandito187 Posts: 2,072 ★★★★
    Six_strings6 said:

    TitoBandito187 said:

    Qfury said:

    TitoBandito187 said:

    Not a complaint, but an observation. Especially for those finishing act 7.1 exploration, which overall, really isn't that bad. However certain champs buffs have made some fights more of a pain, so wanted to point them out for others.



    So, Angela is kind of a sucky fight on this node now, if you don't have 5* duped Ronan for the cheese.

    Is she impossible, no, but now it's a long, boring fight... taking increased block damage as the furies stack up and the fight drags on without the poison damage boost (she just ignores DoT entirely now).

    Not impossible, and a heal block champ like warlock helps, but I feel like it's a different matchup than it was originally designed for and not nearly as fun now.



    Civil warrior, specifically in 7.1.4, also is much less enjoyable since his buff. Thank goodness for magneto. Their are other armor break champs who can get it done, but his increased abilities with armor ups, make this a different fight too.

    Are either of these impossible? Again, No. Are they worse to fight now that their abilities have been updated. Yes, in some cases since the nodes didn't/don't take into consideration their new abilities.

    I know we've already seen this from other buffs (magneto, yellow jacket, etc), but these 2 kind of kill the original node design for those paths/champs.

    I've got the civil warrior path coming up soon I have a 6* R2 magneto or would medusa be a better fit? If he's armour shattered he can't re gain armour correct?
    Even with armor shatter active, he was gaining armor ups from the arc overload 2.2 buff on that node.

    Magneto worked pretty well since he has AAR reduction and throwing a sp2 got the armor breaks and just tried to keep them active, but this fight is going to be more intercept than parry. Punish his specials, back draft intercept, avoid special and repeat.

    I just did that path yesterday and was more focused on not dying from all the unblockable ttiggering, but wish I would have recorded it.

    I'd bring magneto and medusa for that path. CMM is gonna be tough to build up charges of you can't parry often. Venoms heavy was also helpful for some of the path.

    BPCW is also kind of a pain because of the stun reflect so no parries on that one either.
    The armour buffs will still activate since they have increased ability accuracy. Armour shatter reduces the chance of armour up by 100%, this fight has 175% armour up ability accuracy
    Ah, ok, makes sense. Just tested with medusa and grabbed a screenshot. Best thing is to keep ending on the same combo for critical hits which remove the armor up.


  • TitoBandito187TitoBandito187 Posts: 2,072 ★★★★
    Worknprogress said:

    Not even sure how you could disagree with that 😂. RoL WS is a R5 4* with 550k health and zero nodes on him. Do you think that's magic?

    Probably just the usual disagree spammers. I've got one on the original post too and I was just stating the actual changes to the nodes based on the new buffs.

    That said, I do believe that Kabam could make the buff changes apply to only new content quite easily with something as simple as an if/or statement that uses either a set date (so no code prior to that date would be changee) OR instead, use a set act/chapter as an underlying variable specifically targeting defenders only. HB is an example of a champ who has different abilities depending on if he's an attacker or defender.

    Oh well, it is what it is at present. Hopefully, others will at least be better prepared on the examples noted in the original post.
  • Fear_of_Clowns2099Fear_of_Clowns2099 Posts: 892 ★★★
    edited March 2021
    I just did Angela yesterday with Doom bro. It took over 200 hits :o . You just gotta play really patiently and carefully and not tempt yourself to use the heavy. She shrugs off shock so you might get comboed into oblivion with Unlimited Power
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Posts: 7,233 ★★★★★
    TitoBandito187 said:

    Worknprogress said:

    Not even sure how you could disagree with that 😂. RoL WS is a R5 4* with 550k health and zero nodes on him. Do you think that's magic?

    Probably just the usual disagree spammers. I've got one on the original post too and I was just stating the actual changes to the nodes based on the new buffs.

    That said, I do believe that Kabam could make the buff changes apply to only new content quite easily with something as simple as an if/or statement that uses either a set date (so no code prior to that date would be changee) OR instead, use a set act/chapter as an underlying variable specifically targeting defenders only. HB is an example of a champ who has different abilities depending on if he's an attacker or defender.

    Oh well, it is what it is at present. Hopefully, others will at least be better prepared on the examples noted in the original post.
    I know next to nothing about coding so won't even pretend to know what's possible. I basically just assumed each fight was populated by a champ selected from a database. As the champs in that base pool got updated, each piece of content would then be populating the maps when someone enters from the edited pool.
  • TitoBandito187TitoBandito187 Posts: 2,072 ★★★★
    Worknprogress said:

    TitoBandito187 said:

    Worknprogress said:

    Not even sure how you could disagree with that 😂. RoL WS is a R5 4* with 550k health and zero nodes on him. Do you think that's magic?

    Probably just the usual disagree spammers. I've got one on the original post too and I was just stating the actual changes to the nodes based on the new buffs.

    That said, I do believe that Kabam could make the buff changes apply to only new content quite easily with something as simple as an if/or statement that uses either a set date (so no code prior to that date would be changee) OR instead, use a set act/chapter as an underlying variable specifically targeting defenders only. HB is an example of a champ who has different abilities depending on if he's an attacker or defender.

    Oh well, it is what it is at present. Hopefully, others will at least be better prepared on the examples noted in the original post.
    I know next to nothing about coding so won't even pretend to know what's possible. I basically just assumed each fight was populated by a champ selected from a database. As the champs in that base pool got updated, each piece of content would then be populating the maps when someone enters from the edited pool.
    Honestly, that's probably all they're doing.

    But previously released long term content was designed with certain champs, champ abilities and node combinations in mind (story mode, previous variants, etc) and some of that goes out the window like this and will only get worse as more champs are buffed without taking rhe rest into consideration.

    Really wouldn't be hard to apply buff changes only to attackers and only to content released after a certain date instead of arbitrarily retroactive.
  • NojokejaymNojokejaym Posts: 3,904 ★★★★★
    Just longshot her
  • KDSuperFlash10KDSuperFlash10 Posts: 5,869 ★★★★★
    Buffed champs typically get so much better, and the only slight downside of buffs is the occasional past encounter that gets slightly harder. You can't expect them to go back and change everything, and they shouldn't. There is no problem in buffs making champs harder defenders, as well as making them great attackers.
  • H3t3rH3t3r Posts: 2,879 Guardian
    Worknprogress said:

    Champs buffs always have been and always will be doubled edged swords. You can't legitimately expect them to go back through every piece of content and change every fight for every buffed champ. As long as they're still possible, that's just going to be a side effect of these. It's one of the reasons I've always said be careful what you wish for when it comes to buffs.

    Imagine a buffed up 6.2.5 mordo... thank god i just finished that quest 100%.
  • TitoBandito187TitoBandito187 Posts: 2,072 ★★★★
    edited March 2021
    KDSuperFlash10 said:

    Buffed champs typically get so much better, and the only slight downside of buffs is the occasional past encounter that gets slightly harder. You can't expect them to go back and change everything, and they shouldn't. There is no problem in buffs making champs harder defenders, as well as making them great attackers.

    I don't expect it. If you read the OP, I was just pointing out how 2 of the latest buffs break the original design of nodes and giving others a heads up in the difference now. You're welcome if you also need to do those paths and are aware now too.

    Later, as the discussion evolved, by other comments brought on by others like yourself, I simply noted that they could adjust the behavior of how champ updates can impact previously released content.

    Again, this could be done, not by going back and changing anything, but simply by not applying the new buffs to existing defenders in permanent content that existed before the buffs were released.

    That would keep the content the same throughout the game, regardless of when someone dives into it and without breaking any of the original defender placement and the intended node interactions around those designs.

    Never asked for that or suggested it was needed, but threw it out as a possible solution that would not break the game (and would actually make it consistent and not change older content in a potentially bad way). There would be NO changes to the game in doing that and no additional work other than using a date as a variable so only new content has the updated defender interactions moving forward.

    It is what it is now, isn't always bad and likely won't change. However those 2 nodes are now much different than they were a year ago when they were released and that was the intent of this thread.
  • Kill_GreyKill_Grey Posts: 8,666 ★★★★★
    Pulyaman said:

    Buffs have always been this way. You have both pros and cons. That is why I asked my mates to finish up XL variant as soon as I heard YJ was getting a buff. :D

    Same here.

    I can only imagine the pain that is those 4 boss fights nowadays...
  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Posts: 3,091 ★★★★★
    The Magneto in act 4 on the regen and starburst node is a pain now for new players. I did it with Ghulk, but as he's metal his heal block will fail. Most heal blocking metal champions will do. It's only Yondu right now.
  • BlackTuranBlackTuran Posts: 642 ★★★
    Kill_Grey said:

    Pulyaman said:

    Buffs have always been this way. You have both pros and cons. That is why I asked my mates to finish up XL variant as soon as I heard YJ was getting a buff. :D

    Same here.

    I can only imagine the pain that is those 4 boss fights nowadays...
    meh, all that's different is that you gotta avoid him when he's in meltdown mode, which isn't that long
  • Kill_GreyKill_Grey Posts: 8,666 ★★★★★
    Btw, I remember a red mags in 6.1.5 on stun immunity and some other nodes. Pretty damn mean fight with power struggle.
  • AleorAleor Posts: 3,053 ★★★★★
    Iirc, 6.2.6 had sp1 spider gwen. After the animation change, a lot harder not to get hit.
    Also, I really hope they do check all these fights
  • Silver_GooseSilver_Goose Posts: 488 ★★★
    This might hurt the Punishing Angel Mags cheese. Sorry to those who haven't done that.
  • QfuryQfury Posts: 1,860 ★★★★★
    Six_strings6 said:

    TitoBandito187 said:

    Qfury said:

    TitoBandito187 said:

    Not a complaint, but an observation. Especially for those finishing act 7.1 exploration, which overall, really isn't that bad. However certain champs buffs have made some fights more of a pain, so wanted to point them out for others.



    So, Angela is kind of a sucky fight on this node now, if you don't have 5* duped Ronan for the cheese.

    Is she impossible, no, but now it's a long, boring fight... taking increased block damage as the furies stack up and the fight drags on without the poison damage boost (she just ignores DoT entirely now).

    Not impossible, and a heal block champ like warlock helps, but I feel like it's a different matchup than it was originally designed for and not nearly as fun now.



    Civil warrior, specifically in 7.1.4, also is much less enjoyable since his buff. Thank goodness for magneto. Their are other armor break champs who can get it done, but his increased abilities with armor ups, make this a different fight too.

    Are either of these impossible? Again, No. Are they worse to fight now that their abilities have been updated. Yes, in some cases since the nodes didn't/don't take into consideration their new abilities.

    I know we've already seen this from other buffs (magneto, yellow jacket, etc), but these 2 kind of kill the original node design for those paths/champs.

    I've got the civil warrior path coming up soon I have a 6* R2 magneto or would medusa be a better fit? If he's armour shattered he can't re gain armour correct?
    Even with armor shatter active, he was gaining armor ups from the arc overload 2.2 buff on that node.

    Magneto worked pretty well since he has AAR reduction and throwing a sp2 got the armor breaks and just tried to keep them active, but this fight is going to be more intercept than parry. Punish his specials, back draft intercept, avoid special and repeat.

    I just did that path yesterday and was more focused on not dying from all the unblockable ttiggering, but wish I would have recorded it.

    I'd bring magneto and medusa for that path. CMM is gonna be tough to build up charges of you can't parry often. Venoms heavy was also helpful for some of the path.

    BPCW is also kind of a pain because of the stun reflect so no parries on that one either.
    The armour buffs will still activate since they have increased ability accuracy. Armour shatter reduces the chance of armour up by 100%, this fight has 175% armour up ability accuracy
    This path is now a bunch of bull3hit lmao, might leave it till last, didn't find weapon X hard atall. Only boss so far I've disliked fighting is that
    Fear_of_Clowns2099 said:

    I just did Angela yesterday with Doom bro. It took over 200 hits :o . You just gotta play really patiently and carefully and not tempt yourself to use the heavy. She shrugs off shock so you might get comboed into oblivion with Unlimited Power

    I did that path yesterday with a R3 Ronan. Gave him a gem solely for that path lol. Absolute cake walk and took sub 120 hits iirc
  • TitoBandito187TitoBandito187 Posts: 2,072 ★★★★
    Qfury said:

    Six_strings6 said:

    TitoBandito187 said:

    Qfury said:

    TitoBandito187 said:

    Not a complaint, but an observation. Especially for those finishing act 7.1 exploration, which overall, really isn't that bad. However certain champs buffs have made some fights more of a pain, so wanted to point them out for others.



    So, Angela is kind of a sucky fight on this node now, if you don't have 5* duped Ronan for the cheese.

    Is she impossible, no, but now it's a long, boring fight... taking increased block damage as the furies stack up and the fight drags on without the poison damage boost (she just ignores DoT entirely now).

    Not impossible, and a heal block champ like warlock helps, but I feel like it's a different matchup than it was originally designed for and not nearly as fun now.



    Civil warrior, specifically in 7.1.4, also is much less enjoyable since his buff. Thank goodness for magneto. Their are other armor break champs who can get it done, but his increased abilities with armor ups, make this a different fight too.

    Are either of these impossible? Again, No. Are they worse to fight now that their abilities have been updated. Yes, in some cases since the nodes didn't/don't take into consideration their new abilities.

    I know we've already seen this from other buffs (magneto, yellow jacket, etc), but these 2 kind of kill the original node design for those paths/champs.

    I've got the civil warrior path coming up soon I have a 6* R2 magneto or would medusa be a better fit? If he's armour shattered he can't re gain armour correct?
    Even with armor shatter active, he was gaining armor ups from the arc overload 2.2 buff on that node.

    Magneto worked pretty well since he has AAR reduction and throwing a sp2 got the armor breaks and just tried to keep them active, but this fight is going to be more intercept than parry. Punish his specials, back draft intercept, avoid special and repeat.

    I just did that path yesterday and was more focused on not dying from all the unblockable ttiggering, but wish I would have recorded it.

    I'd bring magneto and medusa for that path. CMM is gonna be tough to build up charges of you can't parry often. Venoms heavy was also helpful for some of the path.

    BPCW is also kind of a pain because of the stun reflect so no parries on that one either.
    The armour buffs will still activate since they have increased ability accuracy. Armour shatter reduces the chance of armour up by 100%, this fight has 175% armour up ability accuracy
    This path is now a bunch of bull3hit lmao, might leave it till last, didn't find weapon X hard atall. Only boss so far I've disliked fighting is that
    Fear_of_Clowns2099 said:

    I just did Angela yesterday with Doom bro. It took over 200 hits :o . You just gotta play really patiently and carefully and not tempt yourself to use the heavy. She shrugs off shock so you might get comboed into oblivion with Unlimited Power

    I did that path yesterday with a R3 Ronan. Gave him a gem solely for that path lol. Absolute cake walk and took sub 120 hits iirc
    The Ronan owner's got it easy for that one! I got no Ronan though, so the long fight is the only option. I hate that Terax too.
  • swmcswswmcsw Posts: 249 ★★
    Just did the civil warrior path. He def was a pain. I used doom with Mr F. Every heavy game me an armour break. But sometimes it wasnt enough and he would go unblockable just got to watch out for it. It was tricky but doable with doom
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