Champions who punish Nullify: has Kabam got it right?
Magrailothos
Member Posts: 6,042 ★★★★★
With the release of Mister Negative, Kabam have introduced a new champion who punishes abilities like Nullify and Stagger. That's fine - I like the idea, as a concept. However, personally I'm unhappy about the fact that it triggers even if there's no buff present to Nullify. It also seems that unusual champs with 'limited' Nullify abilities (several being non-Mystic) are being penalised whilst fighting him.
Let's take a quick look at Captain America Infinity War fighting Mister Negative in the new EQ. It's a fairly one-sided fight...
Mister Negative isn't unique here, by the way. This type of issue actually already applied to Annihilus (who sacrifices his Cosmic Control Rod for three strong Fury effects to protect himself from Nullify); but now also applies to Mister Negative, who is even nastier. As he inflicts direct damage whenever he's affected by Nullify, I imagine fighting him with Clare Voyant or Dr Strange isn't fun! But at least that's in line with Class Advantage.
However, Mister Negative's Sig ability (and Annihilus's It's Miiine!!! ability) are being triggered by Nullify abilities that shouldn't even be in action; and in some cases aren't even described as a Nullify. A surprising number of champs with limited or situational Nullify are Science or Cosmic:
So if the Attacker can only ever Nullify buffs A, B and C; whilst the defender can never proc buffs A, B and C... Is it okay for the defender to punish the Attacker for trying to Nullify a non-existent buff? Or trying to Nullify Buff D, which they would never have been able to Nullify at all?
And surely we need some consistency - is it okay for Loki to be safe 'stealing' Mister Negative's buffs, but for Venom to be punished for trying to do the same thing?
For me, the best comparison is with Domino. When Awakened, she punishes champs when an ability fails 'by chance'. This led to a minor outcry when she was released and fought champions like Archangel. His base chance to Poison when blocking is zero; increasing when the opponent is bleeding. It was considered unfair that Domino's degeneration was triggering when he tried to block her and she wasn't bleeding; since his chance to succeed was zero.
Kabam listened: Domino's ability was tweaked; and doesn't arise if the opponent's Ability chance is zero.
What about Mister Negative, then?
- If he has no buffs to Nullify, is it reasonable for him to punish opponents for trying to Nullify buffs that aren't there?
- Is it reasonable for him to punish opponents whose 'limited' Nullify isn't going to be active against any buffs he might have?
This is an ability Kabam have given variations on, to two champions now: the likelihood is that there will be future champions/nodes who punish you for Nullifying them (eg. an inversion of the 'Shatter' node). I'd love to hear your thoughts about how it's applied to champions with 'limited' Nullify abilities; and for the community to let the mods/design team know them.
Let's take a quick look at Captain America Infinity War fighting Mister Negative in the new EQ. It's a fairly one-sided fight...
Mister Negative isn't unique here, by the way. This type of issue actually already applied to Annihilus (who sacrifices his Cosmic Control Rod for three strong Fury effects to protect himself from Nullify); but now also applies to Mister Negative, who is even nastier. As he inflicts direct damage whenever he's affected by Nullify, I imagine fighting him with Clare Voyant or Dr Strange isn't fun! But at least that's in line with Class Advantage.
However, Mister Negative's Sig ability (and Annihilus's It's Miiine!!! ability) are being triggered by Nullify abilities that shouldn't even be in action; and in some cases aren't even described as a Nullify. A surprising number of champs with limited or situational Nullify are Science or Cosmic:
- Captain America Infinity War (nullifies Unstoppable when he's kinetically charged. This is a 'limited' Nullify: it shouldn't trigger against any other buff...)
- Thing (nullifies Unstoppable with Stopping Power during/after Specials. This is a 'limited' Nullify: it shouldn't trigger against any other buff...)
- Iron Fist (Heavy Attacks have a 'limited' Nullify only working against Fury/Cruelty/Precision buffs. It shouldn't trigger against any other buff...)
- Ms Marvel (Nullifies buffs with Special Attacks, but only when she's got 2+ Fury effects. Occurs on most, but not all Special attacks)
- Venom (SP1 Nullifies buffs, although it's described as stealing them)
- Venompool (SP1 Nullifies buffs, although it's described as stealing them)
So if the Attacker can only ever Nullify buffs A, B and C; whilst the defender can never proc buffs A, B and C... Is it okay for the defender to punish the Attacker for trying to Nullify a non-existent buff? Or trying to Nullify Buff D, which they would never have been able to Nullify at all?
And surely we need some consistency - is it okay for Loki to be safe 'stealing' Mister Negative's buffs, but for Venom to be punished for trying to do the same thing?
For me, the best comparison is with Domino. When Awakened, she punishes champs when an ability fails 'by chance'. This led to a minor outcry when she was released and fought champions like Archangel. His base chance to Poison when blocking is zero; increasing when the opponent is bleeding. It was considered unfair that Domino's degeneration was triggering when he tried to block her and she wasn't bleeding; since his chance to succeed was zero.
Kabam listened: Domino's ability was tweaked; and doesn't arise if the opponent's Ability chance is zero.
What about Mister Negative, then?
- If he has no buffs to Nullify, is it reasonable for him to punish opponents for trying to Nullify buffs that aren't there?
- Is it reasonable for him to punish opponents whose 'limited' Nullify isn't going to be active against any buffs he might have?
This is an ability Kabam have given variations on, to two champions now: the likelihood is that there will be future champions/nodes who punish you for Nullifying them (eg. an inversion of the 'Shatter' node). I'd love to hear your thoughts about how it's applied to champions with 'limited' Nullify abilities; and for the community to let the mods/design team know them.
73
Comments
i just went in with Fury or Cable(w/apoc) or she hulk. Definitely just bugged out if thats the case and hope its solved soon
Who are mystics going to be more afraid of now, Torch or Negative?
And once I took Magneto into an AW fight with Doctor Doom (full mystic dispersion), and guess what happened after I threw my 40 prowess SP3…welp! Lol.
On a side note, Kabam must really hate the Mystic class lol. I kinda feel like the fear caused by MD is causing more harm in champ design than good.
Here's a short Gif of Thing in action, just to demonstrate him taking no damage till his Stopping Power is triggered:
they'll likely change the wording to include any attempt to nullify or something like that. but right now, those champs should not receive damage because Negative has no buffs that apply to their nullify. how can he prevent a nullify of something that doesn't exist to be nullified in the first place??
#mindbottling
Another issue to be addressed by Kabam is his delirium debuff & it's interaction with Robots & those who have Psychic shielding like Magneto
Was really annoying and confused at what was going on.
Unawakened, he's just immune to Nullify/Stagger/Fate Seal.
Awakened, he punishes Nullify with direct damage.
It doesn't completely protect him against Mystic interference: He's still susceptible to Neutralise, so Tigra is an option if he's put on a nasty node. Or Mephisto.
Iirc it was something like he'd gain Cruelty Passives when The Enemy's Evade Abilities Failed To Activate At Any Time Even Due To Normal Chance, this caused him to be Super Broken in Labyrinth/Abyss where everyone has a Tiny Evade Chance, which they later changed so he only Gained Cruelty Passives when The Enemy's Evade Abilities Failed to Trigger Due To Ability Accuracy Reduction...
Could be remembering wrong but I think that was the change, correct me if I'm wrong, anyways it sounds similar to this Interaction where the Ability is counting Any Failed Chance (so Anytime Nullify Doesn't Activate) instead of Failed Chance Due To Another Ability (so Anytime Nullify Doesn't Activate Due To A Buff On The Opponent With Nullify Immunity).
Even a "Thanks for your feedback, we'll be discussing this with the team"?
For example, does Elsa only start her debuff shrugging mechanic only after she's infected with a debuff or does she keep cycling it every 2.5 seconds?
Kudos for running though again with thing to show it too.
@Kabam Miike , @Kabam Zibiit any thoughts? This must be unintended, right?