Spinning the crystal... does it even matter?

EaglesFlyHighEaglesFlyHigh Member Posts: 96 ★
in General Discussion
Just curious.... how do you guys open your crystals (the ones that matter, e.g. 6* champ crystals)... do you let your crystals spin the entire cycle or you just push 'open all' at once?

Probably more important (maybe a question for @kabam)...does it actually matter how you open the crystals? At what point does the game assign the champ that will come out of the crystal? When you get or form the crystal (out of required amount of shards)...or when you actually open the crystal?

Thank you.
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Comments

  • ZeraphanZeraphan Member Posts: 324 ★★★
    Scarcity27 said:

    Zeraphan said:

    Scarcity27 said:

    The game assigns the champion when you 'tap to stop' (for spin) or 'open crystal' for pop.

    I spin the important the crystals out, pop the rest.

    I read somewhere a long time ago (from a Kabam person) that the champion is actually chosen when you get the crystal itself, so that spin/pop has the same result because it was already assigned.

    This is why the pool of champs is fixed for the crystal based on when the crystal was created, and not whatever the current pool is when the crystal is opened.
    No it's the opposite. The pool depends on the time of opening, hence a lot of people save their crystals until a specific champion enters the pool. The only exceptions here (that I can think of) are event cavs and featureds, which have a set pool that won't change.
    Not saying you are wrong because I clearly don't work there, but from a programmatic standpoint that seems weird. It would make more sense to have 1 root crystal behavior instead of multiple crystal behaviors.

    Also, if it is the time of opening then that would indicate that the spin and pop would have different results potentially if the decision is made at 2 different times instead of already being decided before either action happens.

    Either way this is why I leave things as shards (when possible) and don't even turn them into crystals until I actually want to open them.
  • Scarcity27Scarcity27 Member Posts: 1,906 ★★★★★
    Zeraphan said:

    Scarcity27 said:

    Zeraphan said:

    Scarcity27 said:

    The game assigns the champion when you 'tap to stop' (for spin) or 'open crystal' for pop.

    I spin the important the crystals out, pop the rest.

    I read somewhere a long time ago (from a Kabam person) that the champion is actually chosen when you get the crystal itself, so that spin/pop has the same result because it was already assigned.

    This is why the pool of champs is fixed for the crystal based on when the crystal was created, and not whatever the current pool is when the crystal is opened.
    No it's the opposite. The pool depends on the time of opening, hence a lot of people save their crystals until a specific champion enters the pool. The only exceptions here (that I can think of) are event cavs and featureds, which have a set pool that won't change.
    Not saying you are wrong because I clearly don't work there, but from a programmatic standpoint that seems weird. It would make more sense to have 1 root crystal behavior instead of multiple crystal behaviors.

    Also, if it is the time of opening then that would indicate that the spin and pop would have different results potentially if the decision is made at 2 different times instead of already being decided before either action happens.

    Either way this is why I leave things as shards (when possible) and don't even turn them into crystals until I actually want to open them.
    Not much of a programmer, but if they update the data for each type of crystal as soon as a new champion is added to the basic, it makes more sense than to keep the old pool for some hoarded crystals, and the new pool for others.

    See, the point of the crystal being chosen is at one tap of a button or the screen. That means that spinning the crystal and stopping one away from a good champ doesn't imply that if you tapped a second later you would haven gotten the champ. It also disproves the crystal being rigged and 'jerking' after stopping and landing on a dud.

    Spin and pop don't have differing odds either way.

    Also, to answer the basic pool being updated point, here are some similar threads:
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/292846/abyss-nexus-question
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/222710/abyss-nexus-question
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/250159/abyss-nexus

    (I searched 'Abyss Nexus' hence all the posts are about that)
  • UnknownUnknown
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  • WayWorn2525WayWorn2525 Member Posts: 998 ★★★
    Just pop'em. Spinning or popping makes no difference.
  • ZeraphanZeraphan Member Posts: 324 ★★★
    Scarcity27 said:

    Zeraphan said:

    Scarcity27 said:

    Zeraphan said:

    Scarcity27 said:

    The game assigns the champion when you 'tap to stop' (for spin) or 'open crystal' for pop.

    I spin the important the crystals out, pop the rest.

    I read somewhere a long time ago (from a Kabam person) that the champion is actually chosen when you get the crystal itself, so that spin/pop has the same result because it was already assigned.

    This is why the pool of champs is fixed for the crystal based on when the crystal was created, and not whatever the current pool is when the crystal is opened.
    No it's the opposite. The pool depends on the time of opening, hence a lot of people save their crystals until a specific champion enters the pool. The only exceptions here (that I can think of) are event cavs and featureds, which have a set pool that won't change.
    Not saying you are wrong because I clearly don't work there, but from a programmatic standpoint that seems weird. It would make more sense to have 1 root crystal behavior instead of multiple crystal behaviors.

    Also, if it is the time of opening then that would indicate that the spin and pop would have different results potentially if the decision is made at 2 different times instead of already being decided before either action happens.

    Either way this is why I leave things as shards (when possible) and don't even turn them into crystals until I actually want to open them.
    Not much of a programmer, but if they update the data for each type of crystal as soon as a new champion is added to the basic, it makes more sense than to keep the old pool for some hoarded crystals, and the new pool for others.

    See, the point of the crystal being chosen is at one tap of a button or the screen. That means that spinning the crystal and stopping one away from a good champ doesn't imply that if you tapped a second later you would haven gotten the champ. It also disproves the crystal being rigged and 'jerking' after stopping and landing on a dud.

    Spin and pop don't have differing odds either way.

    Also, to answer the basic pool being updated point, here are some similar threads:
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/292846/abyss-nexus-question
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/222710/abyss-nexus-question
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/250159/abyss-nexus

    (I searched 'Abyss Nexus' hence all the posts are about that)
    None of those threads have any official responses though, so that doesn't really solve the question at hand on pools.

    From a programming standpoint there is no real such thing as random, random generators still pull in information to use in their algorithms. If the champion is chosen at tap vs pop then one of the things that is often used in that algorithm, system clock time, would be different so while the wheel itself makes no difference that would imply that tap vs pop would actually have a different result for that single crystal. I was under the impression from what I had read in the past that spin/pop would have the same champion result for that crystal.

    I know this is kind of splitting hairs as we all know and agree that the champion wheel is fake and that part isn't in debate. I am just now really curious on when the champion is actually chosen for the crystal.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,616 ★★★★★
    Zeraphan said:

    Scarcity27 said:

    Zeraphan said:

    Scarcity27 said:

    Zeraphan said:

    Scarcity27 said:

    The game assigns the champion when you 'tap to stop' (for spin) or 'open crystal' for pop.

    I spin the important the crystals out, pop the rest.

    I read somewhere a long time ago (from a Kabam person) that the champion is actually chosen when you get the crystal itself, so that spin/pop has the same result because it was already assigned.

    This is why the pool of champs is fixed for the crystal based on when the crystal was created, and not whatever the current pool is when the crystal is opened.
    No it's the opposite. The pool depends on the time of opening, hence a lot of people save their crystals until a specific champion enters the pool. The only exceptions here (that I can think of) are event cavs and featureds, which have a set pool that won't change.
    Not saying you are wrong because I clearly don't work there, but from a programmatic standpoint that seems weird. It would make more sense to have 1 root crystal behavior instead of multiple crystal behaviors.

    Also, if it is the time of opening then that would indicate that the spin and pop would have different results potentially if the decision is made at 2 different times instead of already being decided before either action happens.

    Either way this is why I leave things as shards (when possible) and don't even turn them into crystals until I actually want to open them.
    Not much of a programmer, but if they update the data for each type of crystal as soon as a new champion is added to the basic, it makes more sense than to keep the old pool for some hoarded crystals, and the new pool for others.

    See, the point of the crystal being chosen is at one tap of a button or the screen. That means that spinning the crystal and stopping one away from a good champ doesn't imply that if you tapped a second later you would haven gotten the champ. It also disproves the crystal being rigged and 'jerking' after stopping and landing on a dud.

    Spin and pop don't have differing odds either way.

    Also, to answer the basic pool being updated point, here are some similar threads:
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/292846/abyss-nexus-question
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/222710/abyss-nexus-question
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/250159/abyss-nexus

    (I searched 'Abyss Nexus' hence all the posts are about that)
    None of those threads have any official responses though, so that doesn't really solve the question at hand on pools.

    From a programming standpoint there is no real such thing as random, random generators still pull in information to use in their algorithms. If the champion is chosen at tap vs pop then one of the things that is often used in that algorithm, system clock time, would be different so while the wheel itself makes no difference that would imply that tap vs pop would actually have a different result for that single crystal. I was under the impression from what I had read in the past that spin/pop would have the same champion result for that crystal.

    I know this is kind of splitting hairs as we all know and agree that the champion wheel is fake and that part isn't in debate. I am just now really curious on when the champion is actually chosen for the crystal.
    It's generated the moment we place it to spin, or click Open.
    Crine60 said:

    The spin animation is "fake" and is a psychological tool designed to trick you into thinking you "almost" got a better champ so that you will want to keep opening crystals to try to get that higher rarity or better champ. In the case of regular crystals you just earn through the game it just creates annoyance to players who don't understand it and think they are being cheated out of better pulls and then we get posts about it here, but for crystals you can buy with real money it is sleazy, but I believe a somewhat common practice in mobile or monetized games.

    To answer how I open them, I usually spin them because I don't usually want to open all I have (or up to 10) at once and usually just do 1 or 2 at a time. I hate spinning and wish there was an option to select how many I just want to pop open instead of spinning.

    It's not a mass conspiracy. It's a window into the possibilities. It's a randomly-generated representation of what you can get, and it's meant to have some top outcomes because the actual Drop Rates can't reflect in that spin. There's not enough time.
  • Fit_Fun9329Fit_Fun9329 Member Posts: 2,194 ★★★★★
    This thread is more interesting than I thought, especially the thing that there is no real randomness from programming perspective. Keep it up
  • Scarcity27Scarcity27 Member Posts: 1,906 ★★★★★
    Gomezlink said:

    The spin means nothing, if you're with a friend who plays on the same alliance, it already appears on their cell phone which champion will come out on the alliance tab, before finishing your spin, on your cell phone

    Yes, but it only shows up once you tap. The same way the number on your profile will pop up only after you've tapped.
    Fit_Fun9329 said:

    This thread is more interesting than I thought, especially the thing that there is no real randomness from programming perspective. Keep it up


    I believe @DrZola knows a lot about this. Basically there is a thing called pseudo-RNG (pRNG) which generates seemingly random pulls, but it's not entirely random. It's based on a seed number. However, we probably wouldn't find a sample space large enough to see any lasting effects.
  • Scarcity27Scarcity27 Member Posts: 1,906 ★★★★★
    Scarcity27 said:

    Zeraphan said:

    Scarcity27 said:

    The game assigns the champion when you 'tap to stop' (for spin) or 'open crystal' for pop.

    I spin the important the crystals out, pop the rest.

    I read somewhere a long time ago (from a Kabam person) that the champion is actually chosen when you get the crystal itself, so that spin/pop has the same result because it was already assigned.

    This is why the pool of champs is fixed for the crystal based on when the crystal was created, and not whatever the current pool is when the crystal is opened.
    No it's the opposite. The pool depends on the time of opening, hence a lot of people save their crystals until a specific champion enters the pool. The only exceptions here (that I can think of) are event cavs and featureds, which have a set pool that won't change.
    Also, why the disagrees on this comment? Did I mis-state something?
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,616 ★★★★★
    Antsiou said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    It's not a mass conspiracy. It's a window into the possibilities. It's a randomly-generated representation of what you can get, and it's meant to have some top outcomes because the actual Drop Rates can't reflect in that spin. There's not enough time.

    Lol, where did you hear anyone talking about mass conspiracy?
    When it's implied that it's made to entice people to spend more and keep trying, I'm going to challenge that theory if I disagree.
  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Member Posts: 22,222 ★★★★★
    Scarcity27 said:

    Zeraphan said:

    Scarcity27 said:

    The game assigns the champion when you 'tap to stop' (for spin) or 'open crystal' for pop.

    I spin the important the crystals out, pop the rest.

    I read somewhere a long time ago (from a Kabam person) that the champion is actually chosen when you get the crystal itself, so that spin/pop has the same result because it was already assigned.

    This is why the pool of champs is fixed for the crystal based on when the crystal was created, and not whatever the current pool is when the crystal is opened.
    No it's the opposite. The pool depends on the time of opening, hence a lot of people save their crystals until a specific champion enters the pool. The only exceptions here (that I can think of) are event cavs and featureds, which have a set pool that won't change.
    It's why you see a red notification pop up once you "tap to stop".
  • AntsiouAntsiou Member Posts: 186 ★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    Antsiou said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    It's not a mass conspiracy. It's a window into the possibilities. It's a randomly-generated representation of what you can get, and it's meant to have some top outcomes because the actual Drop Rates can't reflect in that spin. There's not enough time.

    Lol, where did you hear anyone talking about mass conspiracy?
    When it's implied that it's made to entice people to spend more and keep trying, I'm going to challenge that theory if I disagree.
    You’re creating your own narrative, if that’s your jam, fair enough. It’s your reading of the situation, OP asked if it mattered, and most of the discussion afterwards was on how the rng aspect actually was implemented. Anyway, to stay on topic (as in not talking about some “conspiracy”), I asked a friend developer to enlighten me at work (We create SaaS and I’m a designer, so I need the technical know how from the team).
    His take was that as it’s been established, RNG is never truly rng, but it’s close enough that if fits the purpose. Aka you can’t predict what you’ll get. But, the seed as @Zeraphan mentioned, is often time based, and this can gives the outline of a pattern. But unless we know exactly the seed used to generate the rng table, it’s nearly impossible to find what the pattern is, even less using it.
    And as for tap or pop, I don’t know 🤷‍♂️
  • AburaeesAburaees Member Posts: 514 ★★★

    Antsiou said:

    Aburaees said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Antsiou said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    It's not a mass conspiracy. It's a window into the possibilities. It's a randomly-generated representation of what you can get, and it's meant to have some top outcomes because the actual Drop Rates can't reflect in that spin. There's not enough time.

    Lol, where did you hear anyone talking about mass conspiracy?
    When it's implied that it's made to entice people to spend more and keep trying, I'm going to challenge that theory if I disagree.

    The Near Miss Effect isn’t a conspiracy theory, it’s a well documented feature in mobile gaming.

    https://www.psychologyofgames.com/2016/09/the-near-miss-effect-and-game-rewards/

    The funniest example in this game is when you notice how often the reel shows you 6* Punisher considering he’s in 1/5000 crystals.
    Thanks for highlighting the blog and podcast, gonna subscribe as there’s plenty of interesting subject covered.
    Also, the goldpool crystal might be head to head with Punisher as worst offenders. 😂
    I agree, I did think of Goldpool as I was writing, but I couldn’t find the drop rate.

    It just tickles me to land on gold in the middle of a Goldpool sandwich 😂

    The other effect which plays on psychology is when the reel slowly rolls over a rare/popular champ, or stops suddenly before one.
  • ZeraphanZeraphan Member Posts: 324 ★★★
    Aburaees said:




    Antsiou said:

    Aburaees said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Antsiou said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    It's not a mass conspiracy. It's a window into the possibilities. It's a randomly-generated representation of what you can get, and it's meant to have some top outcomes because the actual Drop Rates can't reflect in that spin. There's not enough time.

    Lol, where did you hear anyone talking about mass conspiracy?
    When it's implied that it's made to entice people to spend more and keep trying, I'm going to challenge that theory if I disagree.

    The Near Miss Effect isn’t a conspiracy theory, it’s a well documented feature in mobile gaming.

    https://www.psychologyofgames.com/2016/09/the-near-miss-effect-and-game-rewards/

    The funniest example in this game is when you notice how often the reel shows you 6* Punisher considering he’s in 1/5000 crystals.
    Thanks for highlighting the blog and podcast, gonna subscribe as there’s plenty of interesting subject covered.
    Also, the goldpool crystal might be head to head with Punisher as worst offenders. 😂
    I agree, I did think of Goldpool as I was writing, but I couldn’t find the drop rate.

    It just tickles me to land on gold in the middle of a Goldpool sandwich 😂

    The other effect which plays on psychology is when the reel slowly rolls over a rare/popular champ, or stops suddenly before one.
    Indeed the psychology on addictive behaviors and gambling is a completely other and totally fascinating topic.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,616 ★★★★★
    Aburaees said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Antsiou said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    It's not a mass conspiracy. It's a window into the possibilities. It's a randomly-generated representation of what you can get, and it's meant to have some top outcomes because the actual Drop Rates can't reflect in that spin. There's not enough time.

    Lol, where did you hear anyone talking about mass conspiracy?
    When it's implied that it's made to entice people to spend more and keep trying, I'm going to challenge that theory if I disagree.

    The Near Miss Effect isn’t a conspiracy theory, it’s a well documented feature in mobile gaming.

    https://www.psychologyofgames.com/2016/09/the-near-miss-effect-and-game-rewards/

    The funniest example in this game is when you notice how often the reel shows you 6* Punisher considering he’s in 1/5000 crystals.
    That's a subjective theory. It's based on the perception of the user, and hasn't been proven at all in this case. I'm quite sure I described the process of randomly generating a variety of outcomes in the pool, and that it's impossible to be a true reflection of the Drop Rates in that spin within that amount of time. Considering some Rates are 0.1% or lower. You'd never see them come up. It's the same as accusing the game of trying to get you because you got excited about what you "almost" got, but as we've pointed out here and Kabam has explained many times, you never "almost" got anything.
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