BGs Killing my Drive

Chovner · February 2023

Just gonna leave this here:

Double_Helix · February 2023

DNA3000 said:
The idea in VT was to create a similar situation but without ELO matching. Instead the idea was to use trophies as a way to emulate the idea of "when you get to 50/50 you stabilize." At first glance, if you win one and lose one, you're back to where you started. But in fact, that's not exactly what happens because you can only lose so much. Once you drop to the bottom of your current tier you can't backslide below it. So in fact, your win/loss pattern skews upward. Even 50/50 drifts upward slowly.
...
Now, judged in this context, I believe any attempt to remove trophy loss completely without accounting for this will likely fail, as it will open the door to proportional progress. Meaning, a much weaker player can still advance just as far as a much stronger player by simply doing proportionately more matches. Consider that in practice someone with a 75% win rate is *enormously* stronger than a player with a 37.5% win rate, but is still only winning twice as many matches. This means a very weak player could simply do twice as much matches as a very strong player and still advance just as far.
...
Although we want to remove some of the biases built into the match system and we want to try to remove some of the more blatant frustration points while we are at it, we have to remember that the game mode is still intended to be a competitive mode, and even in the VT there's intended to be a balance between participation encouragement and competitive achievement. The current system tries to implement a significant enough penalty for losing that actually having to win is still important, and stronger players still benefit more than weaker players, even if we are talking about players that are not GC-quality players. Even among the VT, there is still the need for the stronger VT players to succeed over the weaker VT players. We can try to soften that, but we can't completely eliminate that, or the mode becomes too much like an overly complicated arena.

I thought this was really insightful, but it brings me back to my earlier point... the matchmaking system and the progression system are fundamentally fighting each other. The more fair the matchmaking is, the more you push those 75% players to have even matches and become ~50% players, and thus progression becomes a random walk with an upward drift. Fair matchmaking naturally yields unfair progression, which frustrates skilled players and leads to drops in participation. On the flip side, wider matchmaking allows 75% players to progress quickly, but risks turning smaller accounts into cannon fodder and driving them away. You can't have good matchmaking *and* good progression, because they are systematically at odds with each other. I think this is just a fundamental flaw with the victory track design.

I like to play BGs on my mini sometimes. On average, I win about 60% as a Paragon and 90% as a Cav, which makes progression on my mini effortless. I have the same skill level in both cases, but with a small account a little bit of skill and game knowledge has a much larger effect.

I think there are some good suggestions above, like considering the quality of win / loss or the quality of the opponent in determining progression. I would even be happier with something like the Incursions monthly milestones where you can play as much as you want but earn milestone rewards for the highest level you reach (for victory track, not for GC, of course).

DrZola · February 2023

Chovner said:
Just gonna leave this here:

https://youtu.be/0186Be7w6Ko

That looks like we’ve left “fairness” way far behind. Infuriating.

Dr. Zola

willrun4adonut · February 2023

Ironman3000 said:
If they still want Shields to matter how about:
Bronze-Gold: Prestige matchmaking and no token loss.
Platnum-Vibranium: Random matchmaking and token loss.

That'll give the small accounts three whole levels basically guaranteed every season and if they want to earn more they need to progress. It will also allow the top accounts to properly move to the appropriate tiers. Kabam still can sell shields as most people don't use them in the lower levers anyway. Win/win/win.

My issue with that is high level paragons still can’t progress as they are still battling themselves. I still prefer a milestone type approach where you get points for wins, and reaching x wins gets you to the next tier.

GroundedWisdom · February 2023

Clearly someone didn't read what I said. Lol.

phillgreen · February 2023

I still feel that BG's is the most lucrative area ingame, my participation in other areas has dropped markedly and will stay that way until 8.2 drops.

Which I will "content rush" then go back to BG's.

For a scrub like me (early paragon, or TB+ as it has been called), where am I going to get 60k 6* shards in two weeks, which is where I'm at so far this season?

Some game modes are better for roster progression than others but this is so lopsided it's not funny.

I tell you this though, between matchmaking and the bugs, the dopamine hit is wearing off.

GroundedWisdom · February 2023

I don't think you know what dyslexia is. I also don't think you realize how disrespectful that is. It's your Account on here, that's all I can say.

mbrace · February 2023

OP forgot to mention that even if you could get 3 straight wins repeatedly (x15), all the bugs, crashes, and modders will work against those skills.

Rudolph_Raindeer · February 2023

This is so true. I am there, where I play three matches every second day to get the participation objectives, however, often the fights dont register, so it often becomes 5-6 matches to complete the three matches objective.

I am at a point, when I dont play battlegrounds when my family is home, because I get SO frustrated, that sometimes I let it out of now (embarring so admit it).

This game is beyong broken.

Darkraw346 · February 2023

Coming here after so many loses
Done more than 10 fights in I think Plat I and all my Elder marks are over. Somethings definitely wrong here

Tactigon · February 2023

I’ve progressed to GC every seasons but I can’t be bothered this season.

For me I’m fine with the matchmaking. I don’t mind fighting opponents with similar roster and skill. It has helped me improve skills, change masteries and rank up my broader roster. But I’ve said from beginning the concept of winning consecutive fights is broken and will lead to people leaving the mode.

I don’t mind playing more matches in VT. But more than anything this game is severely broken in terms of bugs. This is making BG with the current consecutive wins model beyond frustrating.

And then GC should be best person wins. Mind you, I don’t believe the matchmaking there does not filter people into separate groups that don’t meet - I see many lower ranked players moving through the same brackets but have barely played any in any season.

Overall, Kabam can’t fix their game. I’ve pulled back from all competing modes. And after this BG season it will be over and out for MCOC from this committed player of 5yrs+ and moderate spender.

little_known · February 2023

How is it fair small accounts that have not been playing that long are able to face easy matches and get huge rewards while someone who has pushed for 7-8 years to grow their account and raised their prestige are getting punished.

This is exactly what happened with war - small accounts were earning P1 rewards while larger accounts and alliances sat down at P4.

Great way to alienate the customer base - so sick of this happening.

Thecurler · February 2023

I just keep playing mirror image 16k prestige accounts in coin flip matches mostly decided by luck of the champ draw, how cooperative or not the ai is and who gets a bug or dropped input.
Should be obvious to the developers that apart from the absolute top tier players, the diversity in roster and skill level is much less at higher levels.
The game is a bad joke at the moment.

Vydra · February 2023

Well, this thread is a proper read. But unfortunately so much I disagree with. And I’m glad Kabam Jax feels that there’s a lot of biased opinions based around how matchmaking suit a particular group of players who feel strongly about it.

I do quite like the idea of racking up wins to progress higher but I do find it ironic that the numbers of wins has to be increased to match the “difficulty” we currently face. Is that saying the current system, while “difficult”, is just not what you want?

Definitely some elitism felt in some of the comments where said paragon players want to face lower progression players to take their spots in GC. Does that mean you don’t fare well against players on your own level? But again, quite ridiculous that we have Uncollected players in GC

Some other concerns stem from players having to work and taking care of kids. This game in itself is a commitment, so wanting the game to suit your schedule is a bit selfish and entitled. You progress at your own pace and time. Everyone else who plays has other commitments as well and try their best to make it work

Even if matchmaking was fixed, the likelihood of a new set of players who are unhappy with the changes will arise. Personally feel that there’s a lot of biased assumptions of what the rest of the player base feels about BGs in this thread which I don’t think is the case. And I certainly hope the opinions in this thread is taken with a pinch of salt as the Kabam mods read and pass along info

Vydra · February 2023

Darkraw346 said:
Coming here after so many loses
Done more than 10 fights in I think Plat I and all my Elder marks are over. Somethings definitely wrong here

More than 10 fights in Plat1? You think that’s a lot lol. I’ve had instances where 20+ fights weren’t enough. Always made my way into GC though

What’s wrong is that players like yourself have the expectation that because you have a strong account, you’re entitled to winning and progressing as fast as possible

Moosetiptronic · February 2023

Vydra said:

Darkraw346 said:
Coming here after so many loses
Done more than 10 fights in I think Plat I and all my Elder marks are over. Somethings definitely wrong here

More than 10 fights in Plat1? You think that’s a lot lol. I’ve had instances where 20+ fights weren’t enough. Always made my way into GC though

What’s wrong is that players like yourself have the expectation that because you have a strong account, you’re entitled to winning and progressing as fast as possible

Whoooooosh....

GivMeABeer · February 2023

OP here again, felt I needed tonprovide this update as it’s very relevant. Over the last 3 days I’ve have someone gone 12-1 in my matches and gone from Silver 3 to Gold 2. Match making had nothing to do with it. I’ve been playing better, making good roster draft choices and attack/defense selections. Obviously it’s a lot more fun when you win but I do think people need to reconsider how their losses are occurring and be 100% honest that it’s not always about match making and it will come down to playing well and your strategy.

Chatterofforums · February 2023

GivMeABeer said:
OP here again, felt I needed tonprovide this update as it’s very relevant. Over the last 3 days I’ve have someone gone 12-1 in my matches and gone from Silver 3 to Gold 2. Match making had nothing to do with it. I’ve been playing better, making good roster draft choices and attack/defense selections. Obviously it’s a lot more fun when you win but I do think people need to reconsider how their losses are occurring and be 100% honest that it’s not always about match making and it will come down to playing well and your strategy.

You don't think it has anything to do with most of the more dedicated and strongest players/rosters have already moved up tiers meaning your not facing as many of the top players in the lower tiers anymore?

My win streaks are also increasing lately, but Im playing the same and same strategy, and I know why (answer is above).

Logan00 · February 2023

What a mess of season, the last one was bad this one is worse, can't wait to see the next one!!!!, I can not win 2 consecutive fights in diamond 2, won one loss 3 , won one loss 4, won one loss 3 and played like 80 matches and all same pattern. What a disaster

GivMeABeer · February 2023

Chatterofforums said:

GivMeABeer said:
OP here again, felt I needed tonprovide this update as it’s very relevant. Over the last 3 days I’ve have someone gone 12-1 in my matches and gone from Silver 3 to Gold 2. Match making had nothing to do with it. I’ve been playing better, making good roster draft choices and attack/defense selections. Obviously it’s a lot more fun when you win but I do think people need to reconsider how their losses are occurring and be 100% honest that it’s not always about match making and it will come down to playing well and your strategy.
You don't think it has anything to do with most of the more dedicated and strongest players/rosters have already moved up tiers meaning your not facing as many of the top players in the lower tiers anymore?

My win streaks are also increasing lately, but Im playing the same and same strategy, and I know why (answer is above).

Honestly I didn’t feel like I was getting matched a ton with accounts much higher than mine. I do feel like I have played and selected champs better, but yes I am sure part of it is other players moving up and facing those with less skill or that choose poorly.

But I also don’t feel like that is a terrible thing, I am able to progress finally. Hope it continues though and I can get close to or make the GC.

Vydra · February 2023

GivMeABeer said:
OP here again, felt I needed tonprovide this update as it’s very relevant. Over the last 3 days I’ve have someone gone 12-1 in my matches and gone from Silver 3 to Gold 2. Match making had nothing to do with it. I’ve been playing better, making good roster draft choices and attack/defense selections. Obviously it’s a lot more fun when you win but I do think people need to reconsider how their losses are occurring and be 100% honest that it’s not always about match making and it will come down to playing well and your strategy.

What I have been trying to say. Players with an ego or think they’re good just find it hard to accept that maybe they need to work on BGs before coming onto forums and blaming matchmaking. I’ve seen some ridiculous complaints on this thread and I cannot emphatise with them at all. There’s definitely far worse matchmaking that happens and I hope the false posts don’t overshadow the ones who are genuinely affected by it

Ironman3000 · February 2023

I'm 17-3 in my past 20 to clear Silver and Gold. Still not excited to play because the VT is just a slog.

GroundedWisdom · February 2023

GivMeABeer said:
OP here again, felt I needed tonprovide this update as it’s very relevant. Over the last 3 days I’ve have someone gone 12-1 in my matches and gone from Silver 3 to Gold 2. Match making had nothing to do with it. I’ve been playing better, making good roster draft choices and attack/defense selections. Obviously it’s a lot more fun when you win but I do think people need to reconsider how their losses are occurring and be 100% honest that it’s not always about match making and it will come down to playing well and your strategy.

This. My intention wasn't to call anyone out. It was to point out that Matchmaking is only one part of the equation.

Tactigon · February 2023

I personally think matchmaking is less of an issue than the scoring process. I generally face pretty tough accounts with all the new shiny champs. When you win vs. a monster account it is the best feeling. And I’m sure my own account will be daunting to face for others.

In general matchmaking has improved from season 1. I don’t mind facing similar rated opponents - it improves my battlegrounds skill and roster and mastery focus. But I do put a lot of time into the format.

My feeling is if we ent to the model proposed by some for scoring
2-0 win +2 shields
2-1 win + 1 shield
2-1 loss no shield lost or gained
2-0 loss -1 shield

That this would make such a big difference and would be a change that would be psychologically more impactful than matchmaking changes.

This season I had 25 matches at gold 1 trading wins / losses. Losing many games 2-1 due to bugs (oh the many many bugs) and some in the face of overwhelming odds in my opponents deck. I can take being outgunned. I can accept having to win more shields than present for each level if a more forgiving scoring structure is adopted.

I can’t accept no light at the end of the tunnel when 1) plagued by bugs or 2) stuck in a doom loop of win 2 lose 2. That’s no fun, and at that point the game structure drives burn out.

Chatterofforums · February 2023

GroundedWisdom said:

GivMeABeer said:
OP here again, felt I needed tonprovide this update as it’s very relevant. Over the last 3 days I’ve have someone gone 12-1 in my matches and gone from Silver 3 to Gold 2. Match making had nothing to do with it. I’ve been playing better, making good roster draft choices and attack/defense selections. Obviously it’s a lot more fun when you win but I do think people need to reconsider how their losses are occurring and be 100% honest that it’s not always about match making and it will come down to playing well and your strategy.
This. My intention wasn't to call anyone out. It was to point out that Matchmaking is only one part of the equation.

Or we can look at a bigger part of it. Of course stronger rosters will have easier time advancing a little later in the season as many of the nonstop end game best of the best players we have to face every single match starting in bronze 3 finally clawed their way up the ranks.

This leaves less of the best of the best in the lower tiers later in the season making it easier for stronger rosters to advance.

It took me over 2 1/2 weeks just to get to silver 1 this season (compared to being in GC in first week in previous seasons). I did admittingly go way slower this season as it was just annoying how matchmaking is and the win one, lose one, win two, lose two was just ughhhhhhh.

Well in the past week (after taking over 2 1/2 weeks to get to only silver 1), I've been winning an extremely high percentage of my matches last 7 or so days and now in diamond 1 a couple wins from GC.

Am I going to sit here and say I magically played so much better this past week then first 2-3 weeks of the season or will I tell the truth which is that it's far easier to win multiple consecutive matches (which is needed to advance tiers) when you are no longer facing the best players in the game every single match (although still plenty of very high caliber players and rosters stuck lower in victory track).

Say what you want, but this absolutely has to do with matchmaking.

Musikmen · February 2023

After a day of reasonable matches, today is once again another story of a complete matchmaking mess - I still don't understand why I'm matched with individuals who are two shields in when I have none? Rosters are also not comparable - it's just tiring to waste time

Chatterofforums · February 2023

Musikmen said:
After a day of reasonable matches, today is once again another story of a complete matchmaking mess - I still don't understand why I'm matched with individuals who are two shields in when I have none? Rosters are also not comparable - it's just tiring to waste time

You expect them to count how many shields they have within that tier?! So you only want to fight those who have won (or not won) the exact amount of wins in that exact same tier and you want rosters to be comparable to each other too?! That's a whole new level of overly high expectations!

GroundedWisdom · February 2023

Chatterofforums said:

GroundedWisdom said:

GivMeABeer said:
OP here again, felt I needed tonprovide this update as it’s very relevant. Over the last 3 days I’ve have someone gone 12-1 in my matches and gone from Silver 3 to Gold 2. Match making had nothing to do with it. I’ve been playing better, making good roster draft choices and attack/defense selections. Obviously it’s a lot more fun when you win but I do think people need to reconsider how their losses are occurring and be 100% honest that it’s not always about match making and it will come down to playing well and your strategy.
This. My intention wasn't to call anyone out. It was to point out that Matchmaking is only one part of the equation.
Or we can look at a bigger part of it. Of course stronger rosters will have easier time advancing a little later in the season as many of the nonstop end game best of the best players we have to face every single match starting in bronze 3 finally clawed their way up the ranks.

This leaves less of the best of the best in the lower tiers later in the season making it easier for stronger rosters to advance.

It took me over 2 1/2 weeks just to get to silver 1 this season (compared to being in GC in first week in previous seasons). I did admittingly go way slower this season as it was just annoying how matchmaking is and the win one, lose one, win two, lose two was just ughhhhhhh.

Well in the past week (after taking over 2 1/2 weeks to get to only silver 1), I've been winning an extremely high percentage of my matches last 7 or so days and now in diamond 1 a couple wins from GC.

Am I going to sit here and say I magically played so much better this past week then first 2-3 weeks of the season or will I tell the truth which is that it's far easier to win multiple consecutive matches (which is needed to advance tiers) when you are no longer facing the best players in the game every single match (although still plenty of very high caliber players and rosters stuck lower in victory track).

Say what you want, but this absolutely has to do with matchmaking.

You say it's the best of the best, but if it was, they would be winning Matches within their own range. That's the point. People aren't the best of the best because their Rosters would be able to flatten those much smaller than theirs. They're the best of the best because they're the best of the best. That's the part I was pointing out. It's not only Matchmaking, and we can blame it on the Matches ad nauseum, but if someone is relying on the Matches themselves and not their own skill for Wins, then they're not quite the best of the best. More the upper cusp among the best of the best.

GroundedWisdom · February 2023

I lose my Matches because my Opponent outplays me. Not because the system didn't give me a Match that my Opponent has no chance of winning. Bottom line.

Just_grinding · February 2023

@Kabam Miike any comments? There’s a lot of comments how this “matchmaking based on prestige” actually penalizes many of your advanced players. And this discussion has only grown. Is Kabam reviewing this?

BGs Killing my Drive

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