How can dexterity buffs be failed for buff immune champs
Sector1988
Member Posts: 29 ★
I have just been in AW and fought a wiccan who was incinerating my Spidey 2099. How can he do this if spidey is buff immune? How can neutralize work on buff immune champs? That does not make sense Kabam.
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What causes s99 to not trigger a precision buff? Reduced ability accuracy or immunity?
buff immune means they are immune to buffs, it doesn't mean that those champs don't try to trigger the buffs ( they trigger buffs but the buff immunity doesn't allow them to have those buffs on them )
when they try to trigger the buffs that's where the neutralize comes into picture it reduces ability accuracy to trigger the buffs
that's why when you dex while neutralized the buff fails to trigger and you get incinerated in case of wiccan or rintrah gains his power gain ( if duped )
also it's not weird as you can see from BWCV's buff immunity debuff on sp2 the opponents may already have buffs or trigger them later but this debuff doesn't allow them to have any buffs on them
for mojo to degen you, u must have a buff on yourself that expires but buff immunity doesn't allow you to have any buffs on yourself
Let's replace "buff" with "bullet" and consider this situation. Suppose there was a game rule that said if a bullet misfires, the shooter takes damage. Makes sense, right? Gun misfires, something bad happens. Okay, now imagine the shooter aims at a target immune to bullets. Does that mean his gun never misfires, because the target is immune to bullets so that means his gun simply never even attempts to fire. The pistol just looks at the target, shrugs its shoulders, and says "why bother" and when the shooter pulls the trigger the gun just says no.
That obviously doesn't make sense. In this situation whether the target is immune to bullets or not, when the shooter pulls the trigger the gun should fire. And if it fires it should have a chance to misfire.
Now imagine the shooter pulls the trigger, the gun misfires and he takes damage, and then he goes to a message board to say the game is wrong because he was aiming at a bullet-immune target, so the gun should have never even *tried* to go off, so it couldn't possible misfire. Would you be on his side?
But I think many people think of buffs differently. They don't have sources and destinations. They just are. They turn on, or the don't turn on, like a light switch. So how can a buff turn on, but not turn on?
Actually, buffs are effects just like debuffs. And all effects have a source and a destination. A source triggers them, then they fly to the target, and then when they get there they either land on the target or they bounce off and don't land on the target. Activation happens here, but immunity happens there. Activation happens first, immunity happens later, only after the effect "reaches" the target.
It is a coincidence that most buffs in MCOC have the same source and target. Some buffs don't: Dr. Voodoo's Loas, for example, have a different target than the source. And in games with more than one attacker and one target, buffs can come from all over the place and land on targets other than the caster all the time. It is specifically here in MCOC, with only one attacker and only one defender, that the notion that Buffs don't have separate sources and targets gets blurry.
Buffs are not switches that get turned on or off. Buffs are arrows that get fired by a shooter and then land on the target. Usually the target is the shooter, but not always, and regardless the act of shooting and the act of landing on the target and affecting it (or not affecting it as the case may be) are two completely separate things. First you see if the shot is fired, and then you see if the shot lands. Activation, immunity.
For me the issue is the language of neutralize didn’t mesh with how I thought of the interaction. Tigras description says “if a neutralized champion fails to gain a buff by chance…” I look at that as a buff immune champ has a 0% chance of triggering a buff and shouldn’t trigger a rupture (but s99 will - I tested it).
Wiccan’s ability says “if an ability fails to trigger through reduced ability accuracy.” At first I was thinking the same thing - s99 has no chance to trigger a buff, so precision isn’t not triggering because of Wiccan, it fails because of s99’s immunity.
However - if you look at s99’s description, he gets his debuffs paused if he prevents a buff because of immunity. So - wait for it - neutralize is preventing s99 (and other buff immune champs) from triggering their ability that is triggered by their buff immunity because they won’t have an opportunity to suppress the buff from triggering.
Now, this makes Titania an interesting test case. She has no ability that triggers when she should trigger a buff (unlike red guardian, antman, Cassie, and s99). Currently she triggers incinerate vs Wiccan. But should she? This would make it seem like buff immunity (and immunity in general) is an ability that is subject to ability accuracy manipulation and not an innate feature of the champ.
Buff immunity (or any immunity) is an ability.
When does an (immunity) ability get tested?
When an effect is being applied (a buff, debuff, passive, etc).
So the effect needs to be triggered, before an immunity is tested.
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Let's compare Titania and Quicksilver. When Quicksilver and Titania dash back to avoid an attack, both avoid the attack and neither ends up with a Precision buff; but the mechanisms they use to make this happen are very different.
Titania's "Buff immunity" means that when she uses Dexterity, she checks for success (Domino or Photon can **** you up here!), And if she's successful, success triggers a buff*, and then the game engine tries to it to herself. Her immunity is tested at the point the game engine tries to apply the buff, and so it doesn't stick.
However, Neutralise means that at point * she fails to trigger the buff (and Wiccan causes her to get incinerated). From Wiccan's perspective, the fact the buff wouldn't have stuck to her because of her immunity is immaterial: she never gets as far as the word 'then'.
Compare this to Quicksilver. He's not immune to buffs, but his abilities remove the Dexterity Mastery.
When Quicksilver uses Dexterity he can't, so he uses his 'can't be struck whilst dashing back' ability instead. Since he never uses Dexterity, he never gets to point * and never tries to generate a Precision buff in the first place.
Because he never tries to generate a Precision buff in the first place, Wiccan never has any buff failure to punish.
I thought he degened us when a buff expired. Oops.