AAR Immunity is Breaking the Rules of the Contest

East_to_wes · January 12

For the vast majority of game, immunities are cut and dry. If a champion's description states that they are immune to an effect, then that effect cannot apply to them under any circumstance. Hulkling is immune to shock, therefore no shock effect (debuff/passive/instant) can apply to him. Valkyrie can be immune to stun debuffs, making them incapable of applying, but stun passives can still render her incapacitated. Omega Red is immune to poison and resistant to bleed which means that while poisons cannot apply to him, bleed effects still can but have 100% decreased potency. Immunities to effects such as these have worked in this way for as long as I can remember as a 9-year veteran of this game. Even immunities to attributes such as regeneration rate follow this rule. The description of Wolverine (Weapon X) states, "Immune to All types of Regeneration Rate Modification except due to poison." If you attempt to apply an effect that modifies regen rate such as petrify or spectre, the effect simply won't apply. With Hulk (Immortal) and Lady Deathstrike, whose abilities state that their regen rates cannot be altered but do not state that they are immune, such affects still apply to them, but they do not modify their regen rates. This all seems very intuitive; immune means the effect cannot apply while "cannot be modified" or similar wording means that the effect applies but doesn't work.

The only exception to this seemingly unbending law of the contest is in the case of Ability Accuracy. But before we get into that, I need to explain why all of this matters.

When Tigra entered the contest in June of 2020, she also introduced a brand new game mechanic: neutralize, an effect that reduces buff ability accuracy by 100%. And boy did it not work as intended! Neutralize would not only apply against champs and nodes with a stated immunity to AAR, but it would work too. Nodes like Force of Will and champs like Mordo had buffs completely shut down by Tigra. This obviously had to be fixed, but the patch to this bug took two years to finally happen, during which time players had just accepted this new reality of the game. When neutralize was added to the list of effects that AAR immunities countered, there was some controversy, but it was of my personal opinion that no matter how much I loved Tigra's ability to bypass such immunities, she was breaking the fundamental rules of the game. This change would hurt her much more than any other neutralize champ since not only her utility but her damage was drastically affected without being able to apply neutralize and pause her senses, but I assumed that this would only nerf her in a very select number of matches. For the most part, she would still be the same champ I loved, right? Much to my disappointment, I was wrong. The Force of Will node seems to have appeared much more frequently in the game, especially in Battlegrounds. Every other season I've had to bench my favorite and most heavily invested-in champion as she was rendered utterly useless in the face of Ability Accuracy Reduction Immunity. The surprise addition of Force of Will into the most recent BGs meta just 24 hours after it began sparked me to investigate exactly how AAR immunity works.

There are many effects in the contest that modify ability accuracy. Some such as Magnetism, Danger Sense, and Neurotoxin have multiple effects and therefore "bypass" an immunity to AAR; these effects still apply and their other abilities still work, but the AAR portion does not affect the champ with the immunity. Only 3 effects to my knowledge singularly modify ability accuracy: Neutralize, Tranquilize, and Concussion (technically Falcon's Lock-On should too but while it's active his attack rating for basics is increased so I didn't include that in my research). I decided to test these 3 effects against champs and nodes with AAR Immunity, and the results I found were incredibly confusing.

For starters, of the 6 champions in the game that the majority of the player base understands to have AAR immunity against all champions, only 2 of them have descriptions that explicitly state that they are immune. The other 4 have the previously mentioned "cannot be altered" statements. I've compiled my findings into a chart below:

Note: I haven't ever uploaded a photo on this forum site so I have no idea if it will load. I'll include the link to the spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bZH3sgA8ErJZnZQQsU4IWYXGajXM_OHhm7uBcxFzEcI/edit?usp=sharing

In contradiction to everything we thought we knew about immunities and how they should work, AAR Immunity is wildly inconsistent. Champs such as Mordo and Mephisto who should be immune to Neutralize and Tranquilize can still have these passive effects applied. Then champs that are not immune but simply cannot have their ability accuracy altered in one way or another -- such as Archangel and Mysterio -- are operating as if they are immune to the application of Neutralize and Tranquilize which should not be the case. The inherent laws of the game are being broken by these interactions, and they need to be fixed by Kabam. There are three solutions to this pressing issue that I would like to pitch and discuss.

Solution #1: Fix the Descriptions
This one is the simplest change in theory and in practice. If the contradictory descriptions of these champions were made to reflect what actually happens in game, then the majority of the confusion would be cleared up. Altering an ability description is, I'd assume, very easy to do from a developer perspective and does not change any game mechanics that the player base currently knows. If Mysterio was stated to be immune to AAR then the interactions reflected in game would make sense.

Solution #2: Fix the Interactions
This change involves a bit more work on the part of Kabam with a similar end result as the first solution. The ability of the champ would be changed to fit the description. Mordo and Mephisto would be Immune to AAR effects, and such effects would be incapable of applying to them. Archangel, Old Man Logan, and Mysterio could have these affects applied, but they would not work to alter ability accuracy. I haven't mentioned Shuri or Force of Will in either solution because their descriptions already match their interactions. Both solution #1 and #2 solve the immediate problem, but I believe there is one more way to resolve this issue in the most player-friendly way possible.

Solution #3: Remove the "Immunity" Statement from AAR Immune Champs and Nodes
This is the most radical of the solutions but the only one that solves a major injustice -- a mechanic in the game that affects one champion unequally when compared to all others: Tigra. As I stated before, there are many champions who are affected by AAR Immunity. Some lose a major piece of utility, some miss out on damage potential in combination with other abilities and nodes (i.e. Force of Will paired with Safeguard has a much greater impact on Falcon's damage potential than with Force of Will alone). However, Tigra is the only champ in the entire game whose damage potential is completely turned off in every single matchup with AAR Immunity. Now, I know what some of you reading this post (if anyone gets this far) are thinking. Plenty of champs have "kill switch" nodes, like Ghost with Armor Break nodes, Quake with True-type nodes, and Magik with Power Manipulation Immunity nodes. The difference is that these champions are insanely broken, with Quake and Magik deemed so dangerous to the balance of the game that they may never be introduced at a higher rarity level. Tigra is not at their level. Additionally, these nodes take away the utility AND damage of multiple champs. AAR Immunity takes away the damage of only Tigra. She is not deserving of a "kill switch" that is found so often in so many game modes in the form of Force of Will. The best way to remedy this completely lop-sided affair is to stop treating AAR as something that one can be immune to and instead let it only be an attribute that some champs and nodes can not have modified.

I'm asking Kabam and the players of MCOC to truly consider this plea, at least in some way, shape, or form. At the very least, the current system of AAR Immunity is flawed and desperately needs a tune up. AAR Immunity breaks the laws of the game and must be fixed.

JLordVileJ · January 12

Ngl I thought this was gonna be a load of waffle but it was actually really well thought out. I think this is one of the most detailed logical posts I have ever seen on here. I completely understand and agree with what you are saying and hats off for the immaculate piece of work I just wrote. Also yh the spreadsheet loaded

ahmynuts · January 12

For anyone not wanting to read all that here is a tldr.

"I like tigra, she isn't good when Aar is being messed with so make it so she is. Also there's other champs that have are weird too but mainly tigra."

There's other stuff in there too but it boils down to this

SecretWarrior · January 12

FREE FALCON

Sceptilemaniac2 · January 12

ahmynuts said:
For anyone not wanting to read all that here is a tldr.

"I like tigra, she isn't good when Aar is being messed with so make it so she is. Also there's other champs that have are weird too but mainly tigra."

There's other stuff in there too but it boils down to this

I mean OP's right tho. The game shouldn't be inconsistent.

East_to_wes · January 12

JLordVileJ said:
Ngl I thought this was gonna be a load of waffle but it was actually really well thought out. I think this is one of the most detailed logical posts I have ever seen on here. I completely understand and agree with what you are saying and hats off for the immaculate piece of work I just wrote. Also yh the spreadsheet loaded

hey thanks man! took a lot of work to get the data and type this up but i really wanted to do this right

East_to_wes · January 12

ahmynuts said:
For anyone not wanting to read all that here is a tldr.

"I like tigra, she isn't good when Aar is being messed with so make it so she is. Also there's other champs that have are weird too but mainly tigra."

There's other stuff in there too but it boils down to this

yea sorta. tigra was the catalyst to making this post but the main point is that AAR immunity is super inconsistent and confusing. at a minimum that needs to be fixed.

AverageDesi · January 12

Fix archangel

Pikolu · January 12

AverageDesi said:
Fix archangel

Archangel is hard to fix because of how AAR was implemented in ye Olde days.

captain_rogers · January 12

Isn't longshot immune to aar unless it's by a debuff (immune to passive aar).

Also a simple solution is, let neutralize and tranquilize be applied for all champs, unless in future someone is specifically immune to that effect, but their aar won't be effect for force of will champs.

WinterFields · January 12

Ultron should also be added to the list because his function abilities are "unaffected by ability accuracy."

Side note about that: Ultron can still inflict bleed on Maestro even with the glance because of this ability accuracy part

Pikolu · January 12

WinterFields said:
Ultron should also be added to the list because his function abilities are "unaffected by ability accuracy."

Side note about that: Ultron can still inflict bleed on Maestro even with the glance because of this ability accuracy part

Something to keep in mind is immunity to Ability accuracy is not the same as immunity to ability accuracy reduction. The immunity to ability accuracy includes champions like OML and Shuri. For whatever reason, the devs decided to make ability accuracy immunity not mess with neutralize since it isn't explicit immunity to AAR. That's why you can place neutralize on them even if it does nothing.

captain_rogers · January 12

WinterFields said:
Ultron should also be added to the list because his function abilities are "unaffected by ability accuracy."

Side note about that: Ultron can still inflict bleed on Maestro even with the glance because of this ability accuracy part

Ultron is not completely immune to aar
For example, when he parries,armor up will trigger but parry stun aar can be reduced.

East_to_wes · January 12

captain_rogers said:
Isn't longshot immune to aar unless it's by a debuff (immune to passive aar).

Also a simple solution is, let neutralize and tranquilize be applied for all champs, unless in future someone is specifically immune to that effect, but their aar won't be effect for force of will champs.

he's got increased ability accuracy, so not quite the same. he's still affected by anything that reduces AA but it takes more than a 200% reduction before anything happens.

Fit_Fun9329 · January 12

Very nice post!!

I also think when they introduced neutralize it messed some things up. I hope Kabam will react in some kind of way to this well written post

ArbenBisha · January 12

I agree on the point that inconsistencies with AAR are affecting the game in major way by not working as intended (case in point, the other day I posted a video of Domino hitting me in war while I was blocking, even though I had the steadfast passive on me). So something about that needs to be done ASAP. When it comes to Tigra, that's a balancing thing, so it's up to Kabam how they want to deal with that.

ESF · January 12

ahmynuts said:
For anyone not wanting to read all that here is a tldr.

"I like tigra, she isn't good when Aar is being messed with so make it so she is. Also there's other champs that have are weird too but mainly tigra."

There's other stuff in there too but it boils down to this

There’s nothing wrong with that being the argument for Tigra, because if a kit does a specific thing and that specific thing isn’t working, then people who use the kit for a specific thing would absolutely be concerned and/or have questions or want to understand

For example: More and more, I am seeing characters who are immune to Power Drain/Power Steal

How on Earth does that become a thing when the Visions literally do just one thing?

ESF · January 12

My point being that the OP is right: It’s super annoying to me when an immunity to power steal is placed on a character, as a fan of the Vision. But I understand it, if it’s applied across all characters. But it’s a hell of a lot more annoying when loopholes are carved where it’s “immunity to power steal by characters whose kits start with “V” and end with “ision”

DNA3000 · January 12

Pikolu said:

WinterFields said:
Ultron should also be added to the list because his function abilities are "unaffected by ability accuracy."

Side note about that: Ultron can still inflict bleed on Maestro even with the glance because of this ability accuracy part
Something to keep in mind is immunity to Ability accuracy is not the same as immunity to ability accuracy reduction. The immunity to ability accuracy includes champions like OML and Shuri. For whatever reason, the devs decided to make ability accuracy immunity not mess with neutralize since it isn't explicit immunity to AAR. That's why you can place neutralize on them even if it does nothing.

More importantly, these two statements are not equal, for a very specific technical reason that the game actually used to tell players directly, although no one paid any attention.

- Champion is immune to ability accuracy modification
- Champion's ability accuracy cannot be modified

Those two seem cut and dried identical, but they actually mean two different things that only sound the same. The first one says that no effect that modifies ability accuracy will work on this champion. The second one says that ability accuracy modifying effects will work on the champion, but the champion's ability accuracy won't change.

So what's the difference? The difference is that the champion has an ability accuracy but there are other ability accuracies that exist. Ability accuracy is literally a stat the champion possesses, like health, attack, and armor. When a champion's ability accuracy cannot be modified, it is this specific stat that is being protected. However, there exist other ability accuracies in the game. When a champion has an attack that can inflict bleed 10% of the time, that attack has a 10% ability accuracy bleed. That is NOT the champion's ability accuracy. That ability accuracy is not protected from modification when the champion's ability accuracy cannot be modified.

Most effects that lower ability accuracy target the champion's ability accuracy. They debuff that stat. This lowers the ability accuracy of every ability the champion possesses indirectly, because the ability accuracy of every ability is the product of the champion's innate ability accuracy and the ability's innate ability accuracy. If a champion has an attack with 10% chance to bleed, that means that attack has 10% ability accuracy for bleed. The attack will bleed 10% of the time assuming the champion's ability accuracy is 100%. But when a debuff lowers champion ability accuracy by, say, 50%, then the champion's ability accuracy is now 50%. That means that attack now has a 5% chance to bleed, 50% x 10% = 5%.

If that champion's ability accuracy cannot be modified, then that debuff would have no effect. The attack would still bleed 10% of the time. But what if the champion was affected by a debuff that lowered the ability accuracy of bleeds by 50%? In that case, the champion's actual ability accuracy would be unchanged, because it would be the attack's bleed ability accuracy itself that would be lowered from 10% to 5%. The champion's ability accuracy would continue to be 100% as described, but the attack would now bleed 5% of the time. This is entirely consistent with the game mechanics.

The game actually used to tell players this happened in loading screens no one ever paid attention to. One of them actually explicitly stated how these mechanics worked, but it was removed years ago and replaced with the bland "ability accuracy impacts the chance for an effect to occur" or something like that. Why I can only guess.

Compounding the issue is that I do not believe the text descriptions are consistently used everywhere. It is possible that champions are described as being immune to ability accuracy modification effects when it is their ability accuracy that is directly protected from modification, or vice versa. This is something that generally has to be deduced from how the game works in practice.

BigPoppaCBONE · January 12

East_to_wes said:
For the vast majority of game, immunities are cut and dry. If a champion's description states that they are immune to an effect, then that effect cannot apply to them under any circumstance. Hulkling is immune to shock, therefore no shock effect (debuff/passive/instant) can apply to him. Valkyrie can be immune to stun debuffs, making them incapable of applying, but stun passives can still render her incapacitated. Omega Red is immune to poison and resistant to bleed which means that while poisons cannot apply to him, bleed effects still can but have 100% decreased potency. Immunities to effects such as these have worked in this way for as long as I can remember as a 9-year veteran of this game. Even immunities to attributes such as regeneration rate follow this rule. The description of Wolverine (Weapon X) states, "Immune to All types of Regeneration Rate Modification except due to poison." If you attempt to apply an effect that modifies regen rate such as petrify or spectre, the effect simply won't apply. With Hulk (Immortal) and Lady Deathstrike, whose abilities state that their regen rates cannot be altered but do not state that they are immune, such affects still apply to them, but they do not modify their regen rates. This all seems very intuitive; immune means the effect cannot apply while "cannot be modified" or similar wording means that the effect applies but doesn't work.

The only exception to this seemingly unbending law of the contest is in the case of Ability Accuracy. But before we get into that, I need to explain why all of this matters.

When Tigra entered the contest in June of 2020, she also introduced a brand new game mechanic: neutralize, an effect that reduces buff ability accuracy by 100%. And boy did it not work as intended! Neutralize would not only apply against champs and nodes with a stated immunity to AAR, but it would work too. Nodes like Force of Will and champs like Mordo had buffs completely shut down by Tigra. This obviously had to be fixed, but the patch to this bug took two years to finally happen, during which time players had just accepted this new reality of the game. When neutralize was added to the list of effects that AAR immunities countered, there was some controversy, but it was of my personal opinion that no matter how much I loved Tigra's ability to bypass such immunities, she was breaking the fundamental rules of the game. This change would hurt her much more than any other neutralize champ since not only her utility but her damage was drastically affected without being able to apply neutralize and pause her senses, but I assumed that this would only nerf her in a very select number of matches. For the most part, she would still be the same champ I loved, right? Much to my disappointment, I was wrong. The Force of Will node seems to have appeared much more frequently in the game, especially in Battlegrounds. Every other season I've had to bench my favorite and most heavily invested-in champion as she was rendered utterly useless in the face of Ability Accuracy Reduction Immunity. The surprise addition of Force of Will into the most recent BGs meta just 24 hours after it began sparked me to investigate exactly how AAR immunity works.

There are many effects in the contest that modify ability accuracy. Some such as Magnetism, Danger Sense, and Neurotoxin have multiple effects and therefore "bypass" an immunity to AAR; these effects still apply and their other abilities still work, but the AAR portion does not affect the champ with the immunity. Only 3 effects to my knowledge singularly modify ability accuracy: Neutralize, Tranquilize, and Concussion (technically Falcon's Lock-On should too but while it's active his attack rating for basics is increased so I didn't include that in my research). I decided to test these 3 effects against champs and nodes with AAR Immunity, and the results I found were incredibly confusing.

For starters, of the 6 champions in the game that the majority of the player base understands to have AAR immunity against all champions, only 2 of them have descriptions that explicitly state that they are immune. The other 4 have the previously mentioned "cannot be altered" statements. I've compiled my findings into a chart below:

Note: I haven't ever uploaded a photo on this forum site so I have no idea if it will load. I'll include the link to the spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bZH3sgA8ErJZnZQQsU4IWYXGajXM_OHhm7uBcxFzEcI/edit?usp=sharing

In contradiction to everything we thought we knew about immunities and how they should work, AAR Immunity is wildly inconsistent. Champs such as Mordo and Mephisto who should be immune to Neutralize and Tranquilize can still have these passive effects applied. Then champs that are not immune but simply cannot have their ability accuracy altered in one way or another -- such as Archangel and Mysterio -- are operating as if they are immune to the application of Neutralize and Tranquilize which should not be the case. The inherent laws of the game are being broken by these interactions, and they need to be fixed by Kabam. There are three solutions to this pressing issue that I would like to pitch and discuss.

Solution #1: Fix the Descriptions
This one is the simplest change in theory and in practice. If the contradictory descriptions of these champions were made to reflect what actually happens in game, then the majority of the confusion would be cleared up. Altering an ability description is, I'd assume, very easy to do from a developer perspective and does not change any game mechanics that the player base currently knows. If Mysterio was stated to be immune to AAR then the interactions reflected in game would make sense.

Solution #2: Fix the Interactions
This change involves a bit more work on the part of Kabam with a similar end result as the first solution. The ability of the champ would be changed to fit the description. Mordo and Mephisto would be Immune to AAR effects, and such effects would be incapable of applying to them. Archangel, Old Man Logan, and Mysterio could have these affects applied, but they would not work to alter ability accuracy. I haven't mentioned Shuri or Force of Will in either solution because their descriptions already match their interactions. Both solution #1 and #2 solve the immediate problem, but I believe there is one more way to resolve this issue in the most player-friendly way possible.

Solution #3: Remove the "Immunity" Statement from AAR Immune Champs and Nodes
This is the most radical of the solutions but the only one that solves a major injustice -- a mechanic in the game that affects one champion unequally when compared to all others: Tigra. As I stated before, there are many champions who are affected by AAR Immunity. Some lose a major piece of utility, some miss out on damage potential in combination with other abilities and nodes (i.e. Force of Will paired with Safeguard has a much greater impact on Falcon's damage potential than with Force of Will alone). However, Tigra is the only champ in the entire game whose damage potential is completely turned off in every single matchup with AAR Immunity. Now, I know what some of you reading this post (if anyone gets this far) are thinking. Plenty of champs have "kill switch" nodes, like Ghost with Armor Break nodes, Quake with True-type nodes, and Magik with Power Manipulation Immunity nodes. The difference is that these champions are insanely broken, with Quake and Magik deemed so dangerous to the balance of the game that they may never be introduced at a higher rarity level. Tigra is not at their level. Additionally, these nodes take away the utility AND damage of multiple champs. AAR Immunity takes away the damage of only Tigra. She is not deserving of a "kill switch" that is found so often in so many game modes in the form of Force of Will. The best way to remedy this completely lop-sided affair is to stop treating AAR as something that one can be immune to and instead let it only be an attribute that some champs and nodes can not have modified.

I'm asking Kabam and the players of MCOC to truly consider this plea, at least in some way, shape, or form. At the very least, the current system of AAR Immunity is flawed and desperately needs a tune up. AAR Immunity breaks the laws of the game and must be fixed.

Add Domino to the mix and watch the sparks fly!

Pikolu · January 12

BigPoppaCBONE said:

East_to_wes said:
For the vast majority of game, immunities are cut and dry. If a champion's description states that they are immune to an effect, then that effect cannot apply to them under any circumstance. Hulkling is immune to shock, therefore no shock effect (debuff/passive/instant) can apply to him. Valkyrie can be immune to stun debuffs, making them incapable of applying, but stun passives can still render her incapacitated. Omega Red is immune to poison and resistant to bleed which means that while poisons cannot apply to him, bleed effects still can but have 100% decreased potency. Immunities to effects such as these have worked in this way for as long as I can remember as a 9-year veteran of this game. Even immunities to attributes such as regeneration rate follow this rule. The description of Wolverine (Weapon X) states, "Immune to All types of Regeneration Rate Modification except due to poison." If you attempt to apply an effect that modifies regen rate such as petrify or spectre, the effect simply won't apply. With Hulk (Immortal) and Lady Deathstrike, whose abilities state that their regen rates cannot be altered but do not state that they are immune, such affects still apply to them, but they do not modify their regen rates. This all seems very intuitive; immune means the effect cannot apply while "cannot be modified" or similar wording means that the effect applies but doesn't work.

The only exception to this seemingly unbending law of the contest is in the case of Ability Accuracy. But before we get into that, I need to explain why all of this matters.

When Tigra entered the contest in June of 2020, she also introduced a brand new game mechanic: neutralize, an effect that reduces buff ability accuracy by 100%. And boy did it not work as intended! Neutralize would not only apply against champs and nodes with a stated immunity to AAR, but it would work too. Nodes like Force of Will and champs like Mordo had buffs completely shut down by Tigra. This obviously had to be fixed, but the patch to this bug took two years to finally happen, during which time players had just accepted this new reality of the game. When neutralize was added to the list of effects that AAR immunities countered, there was some controversy, but it was of my personal opinion that no matter how much I loved Tigra's ability to bypass such immunities, she was breaking the fundamental rules of the game. This change would hurt her much more than any other neutralize champ since not only her utility but her damage was drastically affected without being able to apply neutralize and pause her senses, but I assumed that this would only nerf her in a very select number of matches. For the most part, she would still be the same champ I loved, right? Much to my disappointment, I was wrong. The Force of Will node seems to have appeared much more frequently in the game, especially in Battlegrounds. Every other season I've had to bench my favorite and most heavily invested-in champion as she was rendered utterly useless in the face of Ability Accuracy Reduction Immunity. The surprise addition of Force of Will into the most recent BGs meta just 24 hours after it began sparked me to investigate exactly how AAR immunity works.

There are many effects in the contest that modify ability accuracy. Some such as Magnetism, Danger Sense, and Neurotoxin have multiple effects and therefore "bypass" an immunity to AAR; these effects still apply and their other abilities still work, but the AAR portion does not affect the champ with the immunity. Only 3 effects to my knowledge singularly modify ability accuracy: Neutralize, Tranquilize, and Concussion (technically Falcon's Lock-On should too but while it's active his attack rating for basics is increased so I didn't include that in my research). I decided to test these 3 effects against champs and nodes with AAR Immunity, and the results I found were incredibly confusing.

For starters, of the 6 champions in the game that the majority of the player base understands to have AAR immunity against all champions, only 2 of them have descriptions that explicitly state that they are immune. The other 4 have the previously mentioned "cannot be altered" statements. I've compiled my findings into a chart below:

Note: I haven't ever uploaded a photo on this forum site so I have no idea if it will load. I'll include the link to the spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bZH3sgA8ErJZnZQQsU4IWYXGajXM_OHhm7uBcxFzEcI/edit?usp=sharing

In contradiction to everything we thought we knew about immunities and how they should work, AAR Immunity is wildly inconsistent. Champs such as Mordo and Mephisto who should be immune to Neutralize and Tranquilize can still have these passive effects applied. Then champs that are not immune but simply cannot have their ability accuracy altered in one way or another -- such as Archangel and Mysterio -- are operating as if they are immune to the application of Neutralize and Tranquilize which should not be the case. The inherent laws of the game are being broken by these interactions, and they need to be fixed by Kabam. There are three solutions to this pressing issue that I would like to pitch and discuss.

Solution #1: Fix the Descriptions
This one is the simplest change in theory and in practice. If the contradictory descriptions of these champions were made to reflect what actually happens in game, then the majority of the confusion would be cleared up. Altering an ability description is, I'd assume, very easy to do from a developer perspective and does not change any game mechanics that the player base currently knows. If Mysterio was stated to be immune to AAR then the interactions reflected in game would make sense.

Solution #2: Fix the Interactions
This change involves a bit more work on the part of Kabam with a similar end result as the first solution. The ability of the champ would be changed to fit the description. Mordo and Mephisto would be Immune to AAR effects, and such effects would be incapable of applying to them. Archangel, Old Man Logan, and Mysterio could have these affects applied, but they would not work to alter ability accuracy. I haven't mentioned Shuri or Force of Will in either solution because their descriptions already match their interactions. Both solution #1 and #2 solve the immediate problem, but I believe there is one more way to resolve this issue in the most player-friendly way possible.

Solution #3: Remove the "Immunity" Statement from AAR Immune Champs and Nodes
This is the most radical of the solutions but the only one that solves a major injustice -- a mechanic in the game that affects one champion unequally when compared to all others: Tigra. As I stated before, there are many champions who are affected by AAR Immunity. Some lose a major piece of utility, some miss out on damage potential in combination with other abilities and nodes (i.e. Force of Will paired with Safeguard has a much greater impact on Falcon's damage potential than with Force of Will alone). However, Tigra is the only champ in the entire game whose damage potential is completely turned off in every single matchup with AAR Immunity. Now, I know what some of you reading this post (if anyone gets this far) are thinking. Plenty of champs have "kill switch" nodes, like Ghost with Armor Break nodes, Quake with True-type nodes, and Magik with Power Manipulation Immunity nodes. The difference is that these champions are insanely broken, with Quake and Magik deemed so dangerous to the balance of the game that they may never be introduced at a higher rarity level. Tigra is not at their level. Additionally, these nodes take away the utility AND damage of multiple champs. AAR Immunity takes away the damage of only Tigra. She is not deserving of a "kill switch" that is found so often in so many game modes in the form of Force of Will. The best way to remedy this completely lop-sided affair is to stop treating AAR as something that one can be immune to and instead let it only be an attribute that some champs and nodes can not have modified.

I'm asking Kabam and the players of MCOC to truly consider this plea, at least in some way, shape, or form. At the very least, the current system of AAR Immunity is flawed and desperately needs a tune up. AAR Immunity breaks the laws of the game and must be fixed.
Add Domino to the mix and watch the sparks fly!

Everyone knows Domino is made from black magic and the tears of the dev team. She rejects your reality and supplants her own

WinterFields · January 12

BigPoppaCBONE said:

East_to_wes said:
For the vast majority of game, immunities are cut and dry. If a champion's description states that they are immune to an effect, then that effect cannot apply to them under any circumstance. Hulkling is immune to shock, therefore no shock effect (debuff/passive/instant) can apply to him. Valkyrie can be immune to stun debuffs, making them incapable of applying, but stun passives can still render her incapacitated. Omega Red is immune to poison and resistant to bleed which means that while poisons cannot apply to him, bleed effects still can but have 100% decreased potency. Immunities to effects such as these have worked in this way for as long as I can remember as a 9-year veteran of this game. Even immunities to attributes such as regeneration rate follow this rule. The description of Wolverine (Weapon X) states, "Immune to All types of Regeneration Rate Modification except due to poison." If you attempt to apply an effect that modifies regen rate such as petrify or spectre, the effect simply won't apply. With Hulk (Immortal) and Lady Deathstrike, whose abilities state that their regen rates cannot be altered but do not state that they are immune, such affects still apply to them, but they do not modify their regen rates. This all seems very intuitive; immune means the effect cannot apply while "cannot be modified" or similar wording means that the effect applies but doesn't work.

The only exception to this seemingly unbending law of the contest is in the case of Ability Accuracy. But before we get into that, I need to explain why all of this matters.

When Tigra entered the contest in June of 2020, she also introduced a brand new game mechanic: neutralize, an effect that reduces buff ability accuracy by 100%. And boy did it not work as intended! Neutralize would not only apply against champs and nodes with a stated immunity to AAR, but it would work too. Nodes like Force of Will and champs like Mordo had buffs completely shut down by Tigra. This obviously had to be fixed, but the patch to this bug took two years to finally happen, during which time players had just accepted this new reality of the game. When neutralize was added to the list of effects that AAR immunities countered, there was some controversy, but it was of my personal opinion that no matter how much I loved Tigra's ability to bypass such immunities, she was breaking the fundamental rules of the game. This change would hurt her much more than any other neutralize champ since not only her utility but her damage was drastically affected without being able to apply neutralize and pause her senses, but I assumed that this would only nerf her in a very select number of matches. For the most part, she would still be the same champ I loved, right? Much to my disappointment, I was wrong. The Force of Will node seems to have appeared much more frequently in the game, especially in Battlegrounds. Every other season I've had to bench my favorite and most heavily invested-in champion as she was rendered utterly useless in the face of Ability Accuracy Reduction Immunity. The surprise addition of Force of Will into the most recent BGs meta just 24 hours after it began sparked me to investigate exactly how AAR immunity works.

There are many effects in the contest that modify ability accuracy. Some such as Magnetism, Danger Sense, and Neurotoxin have multiple effects and therefore "bypass" an immunity to AAR; these effects still apply and their other abilities still work, but the AAR portion does not affect the champ with the immunity. Only 3 effects to my knowledge singularly modify ability accuracy: Neutralize, Tranquilize, and Concussion (technically Falcon's Lock-On should too but while it's active his attack rating for basics is increased so I didn't include that in my research). I decided to test these 3 effects against champs and nodes with AAR Immunity, and the results I found were incredibly confusing.

For starters, of the 6 champions in the game that the majority of the player base understands to have AAR immunity against all champions, only 2 of them have descriptions that explicitly state that they are immune. The other 4 have the previously mentioned "cannot be altered" statements. I've compiled my findings into a chart below:

Note: I haven't ever uploaded a photo on this forum site so I have no idea if it will load. I'll include the link to the spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bZH3sgA8ErJZnZQQsU4IWYXGajXM_OHhm7uBcxFzEcI/edit?usp=sharing

In contradiction to everything we thought we knew about immunities and how they should work, AAR Immunity is wildly inconsistent. Champs such as Mordo and Mephisto who should be immune to Neutralize and Tranquilize can still have these passive effects applied. Then champs that are not immune but simply cannot have their ability accuracy altered in one way or another -- such as Archangel and Mysterio -- are operating as if they are immune to the application of Neutralize and Tranquilize which should not be the case. The inherent laws of the game are being broken by these interactions, and they need to be fixed by Kabam. There are three solutions to this pressing issue that I would like to pitch and discuss.

Solution #1: Fix the Descriptions
This one is the simplest change in theory and in practice. If the contradictory descriptions of these champions were made to reflect what actually happens in game, then the majority of the confusion would be cleared up. Altering an ability description is, I'd assume, very easy to do from a developer perspective and does not change any game mechanics that the player base currently knows. If Mysterio was stated to be immune to AAR then the interactions reflected in game would make sense.

Solution #2: Fix the Interactions
This change involves a bit more work on the part of Kabam with a similar end result as the first solution. The ability of the champ would be changed to fit the description. Mordo and Mephisto would be Immune to AAR effects, and such effects would be incapable of applying to them. Archangel, Old Man Logan, and Mysterio could have these affects applied, but they would not work to alter ability accuracy. I haven't mentioned Shuri or Force of Will in either solution because their descriptions already match their interactions. Both solution #1 and #2 solve the immediate problem, but I believe there is one more way to resolve this issue in the most player-friendly way possible.

Solution #3: Remove the "Immunity" Statement from AAR Immune Champs and Nodes
This is the most radical of the solutions but the only one that solves a major injustice -- a mechanic in the game that affects one champion unequally when compared to all others: Tigra. As I stated before, there are many champions who are affected by AAR Immunity. Some lose a major piece of utility, some miss out on damage potential in combination with other abilities and nodes (i.e. Force of Will paired with Safeguard has a much greater impact on Falcon's damage potential than with Force of Will alone). However, Tigra is the only champ in the entire game whose damage potential is completely turned off in every single matchup with AAR Immunity. Now, I know what some of you reading this post (if anyone gets this far) are thinking. Plenty of champs have "kill switch" nodes, like Ghost with Armor Break nodes, Quake with True-type nodes, and Magik with Power Manipulation Immunity nodes. The difference is that these champions are insanely broken, with Quake and Magik deemed so dangerous to the balance of the game that they may never be introduced at a higher rarity level. Tigra is not at their level. Additionally, these nodes take away the utility AND damage of multiple champs. AAR Immunity takes away the damage of only Tigra. She is not deserving of a "kill switch" that is found so often in so many game modes in the form of Force of Will. The best way to remedy this completely lop-sided affair is to stop treating AAR as something that one can be immune to and instead let it only be an attribute that some champs and nodes can not have modified.

I'm asking Kabam and the players of MCOC to truly consider this plea, at least in some way, shape, or form. At the very least, the current system of AAR Immunity is flawed and desperately needs a tune up. AAR Immunity breaks the laws of the game and must be fixed.
Add Domino to the mix and watch the sparks fly!

I guess the game is true to the comics

captain_rogers · January 12

Contrary to popular belief, domino works correctly.
Domino inflicts critical failure whenever opponent ability fails to trigger, regardless of their aar immune.
Archangel bleeds may not trigger with his heavy, that's why he gets critical failure.
Let's say nimrod get a synergy where he has 10% chance to gain a fury whenever he gains a armor up, 90% of times this won't trigger, and against domino, he too get critical failure.

DNA3000 · January 12

captain_rogers said:
Contrary to popular belief, domino works correctly.

Actually, Domino always works the way the code describes her as working, because of course it does, but her design predates sanity in the way abilities are implemented. There's a lot of peculiarities to Domino that even the developers today struggle with. The problem is that sometimes her interactions are exactly as the game mechanics would generally imply but most players don't understand those mechanics and think she's broken, and at other times she does something that seems logical but completely violates the normal mechanical rules because her implementation is an exception to those rules.

captain_rogers · January 12

DNA3000 said:

captain_rogers said:
Contrary to popular belief, domino works correctly.
Actually, Domino always works the way the code describes her as working, because of course it does, but her design predates sanity in the way abilities are implemented. There's a lot of peculiarities to Domino that even the developers today struggle with. The problem is that sometimes her interactions are exactly as the game mechanics would generally imply but most players don't understand those mechanics and think she's broken, and at other times she does something that seems logical but completely violates the normal mechanical rules because her implementation is an exception to those rules.

I feel that everytime when I use her and not get furies/beneficial abilities from monthly event quest cuz apparently the ability accuracy of those abilities are tied to opponent, and domino reduced their ability accuracy so she reduces the AA of the furies she get as well.

Unknown · January 12

This content has been removed.

Buttehrs · January 12

WinterFields said:

BigPoppaCBONE said:

East_to_wes said:
For the vast majority of game, immunities are cut and dry. If a champion's description states that they are immune to an effect, then that effect cannot apply to them under any circumstance. Hulkling is immune to shock, therefore no shock effect (debuff/passive/instant) can apply to him. Valkyrie can be immune to stun debuffs, making them incapable of applying, but stun passives can still render her incapacitated. Omega Red is immune to poison and resistant to bleed which means that while poisons cannot apply to him, bleed effects still can but have 100% decreased potency. Immunities to effects such as these have worked in this way for as long as I can remember as a 9-year veteran of this game. Even immunities to attributes such as regeneration rate follow this rule. The description of Wolverine (Weapon X) states, "Immune to All types of Regeneration Rate Modification except due to poison." If you attempt to apply an effect that modifies regen rate such as petrify or spectre, the effect simply won't apply. With Hulk (Immortal) and Lady Deathstrike, whose abilities state that their regen rates cannot be altered but do not state that they are immune, such affects still apply to them, but they do not modify their regen rates. This all seems very intuitive; immune means the effect cannot apply while "cannot be modified" or similar wording means that the effect applies but doesn't work.

The only exception to this seemingly unbending law of the contest is in the case of Ability Accuracy. But before we get into that, I need to explain why all of this matters.

When Tigra entered the contest in June of 2020, she also introduced a brand new game mechanic: neutralize, an effect that reduces buff ability accuracy by 100%. And boy did it not work as intended! Neutralize would not only apply against champs and nodes with a stated immunity to AAR, but it would work too. Nodes like Force of Will and champs like Mordo had buffs completely shut down by Tigra. This obviously had to be fixed, but the patch to this bug took two years to finally happen, during which time players had just accepted this new reality of the game. When neutralize was added to the list of effects that AAR immunities countered, there was some controversy, but it was of my personal opinion that no matter how much I loved Tigra's ability to bypass such immunities, she was breaking the fundamental rules of the game. This change would hurt her much more than any other neutralize champ since not only her utility but her damage was drastically affected without being able to apply neutralize and pause her senses, but I assumed that this would only nerf her in a very select number of matches. For the most part, she would still be the same champ I loved, right? Much to my disappointment, I was wrong. The Force of Will node seems to have appeared much more frequently in the game, especially in Battlegrounds. Every other season I've had to bench my favorite and most heavily invested-in champion as she was rendered utterly useless in the face of Ability Accuracy Reduction Immunity. The surprise addition of Force of Will into the most recent BGs meta just 24 hours after it began sparked me to investigate exactly how AAR immunity works.

There are many effects in the contest that modify ability accuracy. Some such as Magnetism, Danger Sense, and Neurotoxin have multiple effects and therefore "bypass" an immunity to AAR; these effects still apply and their other abilities still work, but the AAR portion does not affect the champ with the immunity. Only 3 effects to my knowledge singularly modify ability accuracy: Neutralize, Tranquilize, and Concussion (technically Falcon's Lock-On should too but while it's active his attack rating for basics is increased so I didn't include that in my research). I decided to test these 3 effects against champs and nodes with AAR Immunity, and the results I found were incredibly confusing.

For starters, of the 6 champions in the game that the majority of the player base understands to have AAR immunity against all champions, only 2 of them have descriptions that explicitly state that they are immune. The other 4 have the previously mentioned "cannot be altered" statements. I've compiled my findings into a chart below:

Note: I haven't ever uploaded a photo on this forum site so I have no idea if it will load. I'll include the link to the spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bZH3sgA8ErJZnZQQsU4IWYXGajXM_OHhm7uBcxFzEcI/edit?usp=sharing

In contradiction to everything we thought we knew about immunities and how they should work, AAR Immunity is wildly inconsistent. Champs such as Mordo and Mephisto who should be immune to Neutralize and Tranquilize can still have these passive effects applied. Then champs that are not immune but simply cannot have their ability accuracy altered in one way or another -- such as Archangel and Mysterio -- are operating as if they are immune to the application of Neutralize and Tranquilize which should not be the case. The inherent laws of the game are being broken by these interactions, and they need to be fixed by Kabam. There are three solutions to this pressing issue that I would like to pitch and discuss.

Solution #1: Fix the Descriptions
This one is the simplest change in theory and in practice. If the contradictory descriptions of these champions were made to reflect what actually happens in game, then the majority of the confusion would be cleared up. Altering an ability description is, I'd assume, very easy to do from a developer perspective and does not change any game mechanics that the player base currently knows. If Mysterio was stated to be immune to AAR then the interactions reflected in game would make sense.

Solution #2: Fix the Interactions
This change involves a bit more work on the part of Kabam with a similar end result as the first solution. The ability of the champ would be changed to fit the description. Mordo and Mephisto would be Immune to AAR effects, and such effects would be incapable of applying to them. Archangel, Old Man Logan, and Mysterio could have these affects applied, but they would not work to alter ability accuracy. I haven't mentioned Shuri or Force of Will in either solution because their descriptions already match their interactions. Both solution #1 and #2 solve the immediate problem, but I believe there is one more way to resolve this issue in the most player-friendly way possible.

Solution #3: Remove the "Immunity" Statement from AAR Immune Champs and Nodes
This is the most radical of the solutions but the only one that solves a major injustice -- a mechanic in the game that affects one champion unequally when compared to all others: Tigra. As I stated before, there are many champions who are affected by AAR Immunity. Some lose a major piece of utility, some miss out on damage potential in combination with other abilities and nodes (i.e. Force of Will paired with Safeguard has a much greater impact on Falcon's damage potential than with Force of Will alone). However, Tigra is the only champ in the entire game whose damage potential is completely turned off in every single matchup with AAR Immunity. Now, I know what some of you reading this post (if anyone gets this far) are thinking. Plenty of champs have "kill switch" nodes, like Ghost with Armor Break nodes, Quake with True-type nodes, and Magik with Power Manipulation Immunity nodes. The difference is that these champions are insanely broken, with Quake and Magik deemed so dangerous to the balance of the game that they may never be introduced at a higher rarity level. Tigra is not at their level. Additionally, these nodes take away the utility AND damage of multiple champs. AAR Immunity takes away the damage of only Tigra. She is not deserving of a "kill switch" that is found so often in so many game modes in the form of Force of Will. The best way to remedy this completely lop-sided affair is to stop treating AAR as something that one can be immune to and instead let it only be an attribute that some champs and nodes can not have modified.

I'm asking Kabam and the players of MCOC to truly consider this plea, at least in some way, shape, or form. At the very least, the current system of AAR Immunity is flawed and desperately needs a tune up. AAR Immunity breaks the laws of the game and must be fixed.
Add Domino to the mix and watch the sparks fly!

I guess the game is true to the comics

Hmmmmn seems we need shamrock in game. Just saying.

Marvelfan30 · January 12

xLunatiXx · January 12

Send this to the devs and keep it on top of the forum!

Squirrelguy · January 12

This just needs to be added to the long list of unwritten rules to the Contest that don't need to be written but just beg to be detailed out for the players that don't want to get a degree in game design and coding. AAR and the delineation between champion and ability AA, things like armor breaks counting as nullify, the scaling factor of arbitrary numbers in things like crit rate and crit damage, and in-depth walkthrough of how scaling percentages work, and then also maybe some basic crystal algebra and statistics would all be helpful additions to what I would like to propose should be called the Contest of Champions Compendium ~~of Cnowledge~~.

SirGamesBond · January 12

Pikolu said:

AverageDesi said:
Fix archangel
Archangel is hard to fix because of how AAR was implemented in ye Olde days.

Hard but not impossible.
The effort is not there cuz its not costing the company. I don't use this statement lightly but that is what is seems like. They are not willing to fix him. 7*s are here, we all know he's not coming to 7*, so fix the damn 6*.
My second rank 4 5* was AA back during act 6.

I asks for champions to get fixed, positively or negatively is not in my agenda.

AAR Immunity is Breaking the Rules of the Contest

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