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NERF ‘EM - New OP Defender Trend

24

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    GrO_ot78GrO_ot78 Posts: 681 ★★★
    No need to mix Photon in to this…



    Photon is not hard, if you know how to intercept and dex, and of course got some tactical knowledge.
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    I_tell_no_tales_1I_tell_no_tales_1 Posts: 1,198 ★★★★
    It's more about the AI and dropped inputs

    You won't be able to win against someone like Diablo if the game decides that it will not let you get load into the fight

    You can get stuck on loading screen and lose a winning match

    And it's not like you can avoid BGs because you need to complete VT to get the runestones
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    Aomine_Daiki10Aomine_Daiki10 Posts: 1,643 ★★★★★
    Kabaam idea of creating a tough defender remove willpower, undexable+ unlockable special attacks with unavoidable damage. It's becoming more of counters than skill.
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    Tairique_turay0Tairique_turay0 Posts: 40
    @GrO_ot78 lmao you added no value the the discussion, you just commented to flex finishing Photon with Nick Fury’s second life 💀 I’ve finished Photon with Valk and Kingpin on 100% but that’s why I didn’t make her one of the main points of my discussion post. She isn’t as bad as the other 3 but the unblockable specials are still ridiculous even though she can be finished on 100%
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    Milan1405Milan1405 Posts: 952 ★★★★
    GrO_ot78 said:

    No need to mix Photon in to this…



    Photon is not hard, if you know how to intercept and dex, and of course got some tactical knowledge.

    Dude you got 46k points, that's a loss in most matches in higher BGs tiers. Also that's a 6 star photon. If you play against a bigger roster, you will start facing awakened 7 star photons at R3 with block penetration stat focus and that's a whole different story and would take you even longer.

    I agree photon is less annoying than bullseye and onslaught, but you're picture does not support this at all.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,384 ★★★★★

    @GroundedWisdom fans asked for better champs on attack because they kept releasing champs that weren’t hitting hard… not once were players asking for better defenders lol what are you talking about.

    You can't have one without the other.
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    GrO_ot78GrO_ot78 Posts: 681 ★★★

    @GrO_ot78 lmao you added no value the the discussion, you just commented to flex finishing Photon with Nick Fury’s second life 💀 I’ve finished Photon with Valk and Kingpin on 100% but that’s why I didn’t make her one of the main points of my discussion post. She isn’t as bad as the other 3 but the unblockable specials are still ridiculous even though she can be finished on 100%

    I’m a 💩 paragon in plat3 atm, been here for a week, I don’t have anything to flex about 👻
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    Tairique_turay0Tairique_turay0 Posts: 40
    @GrO_ot78 you can’t be 💩 if you’re Paragon mate
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    GrO_ot78GrO_ot78 Posts: 681 ★★★
    edited March 12

    @GrO_ot78 you can’t be 💩 if you’re Paragon mate

    I am 🤭😂🤣

    But, I just made it to plat2 tho…took down Photon with Kingpin in the 3 match 🥵👻




    R4 Kingpin vs R5 ascended Photon, R5 ascended Herc vs 7R1 Shocker…

    «I’m fast as f… boy, i’m fast as f…» 🤭
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    Tairique_turay0Tairique_turay0 Posts: 40
    @GrO_ot78 Yeah Kingpin is one of her best counters that can get her down before her BS ability triggers
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    OrtounOrtoun Posts: 624 ★★★
    LJF said:

    Hey OP, I agree on some of these things.

    We are aware that we've been going a little hard on the 5/5 Defenders lately and do plan to tone it down in the future. Unfortunately, we had some catching up to do with the Attackers we've released over the years without any Defenders to match, especially in certain classes.

    Defenders are an important addition to the game. It may seem "out of touch" with what the average player wants, but ask any Game Dev and they will tell you, more often than not what the player wants and what they/the game needs is usually wildly different.

    Internally and looking forward, over the last month or so we've already adjusted some of our plans for a number of upcoming Champions so that they weren't as strong on Defense. This isn't to say there won't be any 5/5 Defenders coming your way in the future, but you can expect fewer than what you've seen in the last few months.


    This explanation would make sense if attackers exist to counter the newest defenders. But even if Bullseye has a counter or two in game, that's not good enough for the restrictive metas you're putting out . I can't always use Storm to beat Bullseye if, for example, I can't parry because he has unblockable and indestructible buffs like the current GC meta. I can't use Tigra against Onslaught if, like in a BG meta or two ago, I can't reduce the defender's ability accuracy.

    You're looking at defenders in a vacuum as if their abilities are the only factors in the analysis. There's so much more in game, both intended (meta nodes, tactics) and not (lag spikes, AI shenanigans) to account for too. It moves the needle from "this is hard, but beatable and fun" to "this sucks and I hate playing because there's no way to win."

    Separately, having defenders turn off masteries is just lazy design. It's one thing if one champ can do it in very limited circumstances (e.g. Heimdall on his L2, and only when he has access to buffs). It even makes sense for some champs, like Photon, to turn off certain masteries when their abilities call for it. I don't like that ability and it's annoying, but it's justified because of the trade-off of an opponent constantly healing from all the non-damaging debuffs. But you're reaching a point where it's just a basic part of every new champ's kit. It becomes "you paid for these abilities with units, lol now you can't use them." That's incredible frustrating. Be more creative than that. Do better.

    I disagree about the willpower part, in BG it means that if you want to use them as a defender you have to invest in despair, and in other content, they can add a node specifically to turn off healing if that's what they want, it shouldn't be a blanket thing. Or add in something else, like how Gorr disables his own willpower and gets viscious buffs, make the defender give you something back in exchange. Preferably something that makes them a little easier to fight, like for Dust, reduce the duration of her sandstorm by a certain percentage for each point in willpower. Or they can just be lazy and give a fury passive for each rank or something.
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    Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 3,199 ★★★★★

    Polygon said:

    Pikolu said:

    Pikolu said:

    FunnyDude said:

    Storm is a solution only when there is no meta

    What do you mean? She beats him in various modes
    Victory track meta is nothing, Kabam can easily make Storm & Kitty useless, then what you are going to do?
    Just use your relic when he activates his evade and push him to sp2. If you're using someone like Venom or Archangel, he will be dead very soon after that.
    Doesn't Bullseye's awakened ability at sig 200 shut down AA? I thought it did.
    I've seen people kill my bullseye in 28 seconds with AA.
    Is it happening consistently though? Cause it's 50% chance to purify 50% of all debuffs if people are getting lucky more often than not then that's weird.
    There are more counters /options to bullseye than you think. You mainly need a bleed immune and you can play around the killer instinct by waiting it out. Yes it stalls the fight in BGs, but he has such a tiny healthpool that the fight ends really fast, and the sig 200 won’t be making much of a difference unless theyre using someone like scorp/ham who aren’t even ideal to begin with
    Name all these counters then, if he had that many counters people wouldn't be struggling so much.
    Some (many) of the champs I’m about to say are a stretch or champs that nobody has ranked or require weird playstyles to work or any number of other things, but these are all the champions I could think of who could work through a Bullseye fight pretty okay. Totally not saying Bullseye should stay how he is, just providing some thoughts on who could be used outside of the conventional meta options.

    If in a BGs setting - Iceman, Bishop, Storm, Storm X, Onslaught, Emma Frost(ish. Bleed immune in diamond and prevents evade in telepath), and White Mags (use prefight on himself) all have direct counters in their kits.

    Then you’ve got weirder options who counter what I consider to be the bigger part of Bullseye’s threat, his Killer Instinct - Mole Man, Nick Fury, Night Thrasher (board attacks can’t be evaded), Ghost, Punisher2099 (dance around a little at the start of the fight to get full battery charge, then go after him. He’ll be dead before he gets a bar of power), both tech Visions after a little set up (same idea, power control), Aarkus (easy to maintain coldsnap), Dormammu (yeah, I know, fists of velvet, but he has absolute power control over the fight), Doc Voodoo (power control like Dormammu once he gets his sp2. Not super realistic, I know, but you asked for all of them), and, of course, Archangel.

    Finally, only available outside of BGs, there’s every bleed immune #hero or #metal champ in the game w/ the White Mags prefight.

    Again, all of this is not to say that Bullseye isn’t overtuned as a defender, just answering your question.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,384 ★★★★★
    LJF said:

    Hey OP, I agree on some of these things.

    We are aware that we've been going a little hard on the 5/5 Defenders lately and do plan to tone it down in the future. Unfortunately, we had some catching up to do with the Attackers we've released over the years without any Defenders to match, especially in certain classes.

    Defenders are an important addition to the game. It may seem "out of touch" with what the average player wants, but ask any Game Dev and they will tell you, more often than not what the player wants and what they/the game needs is usually wildly different.

    Internally and looking forward, over the last month or so we've already adjusted some of our plans for a number of upcoming Champions so that they weren't as strong on Defense. This isn't to say there won't be any 5/5 Defenders coming your way in the future, but you can expect fewer than what you've seen in the last few months.


    This explanation would make sense if attackers exist to counter the newest defenders. But even if Bullseye has a counter or two in game, that's not good enough for the restrictive metas you're putting out . I can't always use Storm to beat Bullseye if, for example, I can't parry because he has unblockable and indestructible buffs like the current GC meta. I can't use Tigra against Onslaught if, like in a BG meta or two ago, I can't reduce the defender's ability accuracy.

    You're looking at defenders in a vacuum as if their abilities are the only factors in the analysis. There's so much more in game, both intended (meta nodes, tactics) and not (lag spikes, AI shenanigans) to account for too. It moves the needle from "this is hard, but beatable and fun" to "this sucks and I hate playing because there's no way to win."

    Separately, having defenders turn off masteries is just lazy design. It's one thing if one champ can do it in very limited circumstances (e.g. Heimdall on his L2, and only when he has access to buffs). It even makes sense for some champs, like Photon, to turn off certain masteries when their abilities call for it. I don't like that ability and it's annoying, but it's justified because of the trade-off of an opponent constantly healing from all the non-damaging debuffs. But you're reaching a point where it's just a basic part of every new champ's kit. It becomes "you paid for these abilities with units, lol now you can't use them." That's incredible frustrating. Be more creative than that. Do better.

    You're a few years too late on that one. There are Champs that stop Stun from working through Parry, and punish that Mastery. There are Nodes that punish using Dex. If it's in the game, it's going to be challenged.
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