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Magic Heist. Horribly Designed.

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  • Options
    BringPopcornBringPopcorn Posts: 2,800 ★★★★★
    KDoggg2017 said:

    Life can derail even the most dedicated player's plans.
    - Drop ur phone. It can take 2-3 days to get a replacement in the mail.
    -Verizon service went down entirely in some states for 2 days.
    - Power outage due to weather/natural disaster.
    - Any number of other events out of a player's control.

    I've logged into MCOC everyday for nearly 8 years... without fail. Even I can admit this event is unforgiving.
    It is 100% a terrible design. But it is what it is. 🤷

    If you played for 8 years you must remember the 3 month summoner appreciation calendar ..
    People complained because they had vacations plans in the middle of it. There will always be someone who misses out and gets angry
    I personally don't agree with OP for a simple reason... He decided to play and catch up and went to do things that had the longest timer, to miss out on the one that had to be done EVERYDAY. If you weight every mode he named (BG, EQ,SQ any others) none give you a reward as good as a 4-5 Rank up gem .. so I guess it comes down to priorities
  • Options
    NightheartNightheart Posts: 847 ★★★
    Congratulations 🎉🥳
  • Options
    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,694 Guardian
    Spiderclaws said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Spiderclaws said:

    Even the Reddit is more understanding of criticism than the forums.

    Certain kinds of criticism, sometimes. However, once they tire of a line of criticism, they are also much less forgiving, and less moderated against being unforgiving.
    Spiderclaws said:

    You studied game design since you were 11, yet you think this should be normalized in games? Comeon. Even while playing deranged P2W games like Lost Ark, I had less to do per day WITH catch up mechanics lol. In MCOC, there are 0 catch up mechanics, and by missing a day, you will not only be letting yourself down but potentially letting down teammates too.

    It's a wonder why people are so burnt out, and more and more threads are popping up on the forums of how players are sick of it. FYI, I am certainly not one of those people, but can't we at least have a conversations about this without people being up in arms for saying something against the game? Even the Reddit is more understanding of criticism than the forums.

    I am no more "up in arms" than you are. As to your point here, the question is one that is a pretty controversial one in game theory. The question is, is it reasonable for a game to have more content than a player could possibly do? Is it the responsibility of the game developer to deliberately under fill their games so that players are basically forced to take breaks from the game?

    Consider why we have quest energy in the first place. I'm sure there are lots of players who wish quest energy didn't exist, so they could just play whatever they wanted whenever they wanted however much they want. Is that a reasonable request to make? Do game developers have a responsibility to restrict things like quest energy, specifically to throttle game play? If not, why is it reasonable to allow players to play in an unlimited fashion, but dangerous to place too many things in the game to spend their time on?

    You say "can't we at least have a conversation" but you "come on" me like what you're saying is so obvious I should simply agree with you by fiat, and you compare MCOC to "deranged" games in an unfavorable manner. But I'm the one that is failing to be sufficiently understanding of your clearly reasonable and objective position.

    Is there a nuanced conversation to have here? Sure. But calling out the Magic Heist of all things in the game as the exemplar of this issue isn't signaling a nuanced conversation. No one is or could reasonably be complaining about the time demands of Magic Heist. They are complaining about the need to be consistent. Things like AQ and AW place far more demands on player time. Trying to frame player complaints about the Magic Heist rewards in terms of excessive time demands by the game is intellectually dishonest.

    The problem is probably completists, of which I count myself as one. Most players probably aren't doing AQ and AW and BG and EQ and SQ and Incursions and arena grinding and the double track objectives and and and. Most players play casually, and do not do everything nor do they try. But the problem is it is still actually possible to try to stretch and do everything, or something close to everything. But what if the game continues to expand to the point where that becomes literally impossible. Then what? Maybe the problem is not the game, the problem is the attitude that a player *should* be able to do everything. The last time I went to Disneyland I couldn't do everything. I didn't consider that to be a failing of the park. Maybe it is up to the players to decide which things to do on which days, because it is impossible to do everything nor should they try.

    I'm what most would consider a very active player. I log in multiple times a day. But I do take vacations, and when I travel I generally downshift my gameplay to a much lower level. I stop doing as much arena grinding, if at all. I only log in a few times a day, once in the morning, once in the evening, and once in the middle of the day somewhere to do AQ and or AW paths if I can, and sometimes I cannot. I choose to reduce my game play to accommodate my circumstances, and accept that I will be getting less. I prioritize alliance activities, because that's what I choose to do, in part because I am an alliance leader. I make choices, and I live with them.

    The question is, does that make me a super human exemplar of homo sapiens achievement that mere mortals should aspire to but never likely reach, or should that be considered a reasonable expectation for the average person to be responsible for in their life. I tend to lean towards the latter.
    It isn't about underfilling the game, it's about allowing players to complete stuff at their own time and leisuire, and not restricted to daily schedules like the current AQ, AW, BGs, Side Events, Solo Objectives, and other objectives (such as Magic Heist). Of course, 1 or 2 things having to be completed daily is fine, but let's not act like if half of the above were on weekly/biweekly/monthly timers, the game would suddenly feel 'underfilled'. You're making a strawman argument.

    Even if I agree with a lot of what you said, it all inevitably boils down to time management, as I also mentioned. If the best way to spend my time in the game currently boils down to spending 5 minutes a day on arena, as this will reap the greatest rewards, then it is once again, BAD GAME DESIGN, as what is being rewarded here is not my skill, roster, or years of experience, but remembering to complete a tedious activity on a 24 hour cycle.
    Where it the Big Book of Game Design does it say that challenging memory and time management is bad game design? That's literally just making stuff up. Most online games are all about player engagement. Actually rewarding players who are actually engaged enough to log in every day and do a task isn't bad game design. It just game design.

    Doing what you want when you want is not game design, it is sandbox design. If that's what you want, that's the genre of game you should look for. That, or Calvinball.
  • Options
    Herbal_TaxmanHerbal_Taxman Posts: 119 ★★
    I would agree that the game feels overstuffed and over complicated at the moment. I play a lot and I’m happy to have so much content. But I wish there was something that brought more structure to it, or made it more intuitive to follow. This is probably a UX comment, now that I write it out.
  • Options
    SpiderclawsSpiderclaws Posts: 15 ★
    DNA3000 said:

    Spiderclaws said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Spiderclaws said:

    Even the Reddit is more understanding of criticism than the forums.

    Certain kinds of criticism, sometimes. However, once they tire of a line of criticism, they are also much less forgiving, and less moderated against being unforgiving.
    Spiderclaws said:

    You studied game design since you were 11, yet you think this should be normalized in games? Comeon. Even while playing deranged P2W games like Lost Ark, I had less to do per day WITH catch up mechanics lol. In MCOC, there are 0 catch up mechanics, and by missing a day, you will not only be letting yourself down but potentially letting down teammates too.

    It's a wonder why people are so burnt out, and more and more threads are popping up on the forums of how players are sick of it. FYI, I am certainly not one of those people, but can't we at least have a conversations about this without people being up in arms for saying something against the game? Even the Reddit is more understanding of criticism than the forums.

    I am no more "up in arms" than you are. As to your point here, the question is one that is a pretty controversial one in game theory. The question is, is it reasonable for a game to have more content than a player could possibly do? Is it the responsibility of the game developer to deliberately under fill their games so that players are basically forced to take breaks from the game?

    Consider why we have quest energy in the first place. I'm sure there are lots of players who wish quest energy didn't exist, so they could just play whatever they wanted whenever they wanted however much they want. Is that a reasonable request to make? Do game developers have a responsibility to restrict things like quest energy, specifically to throttle game play? If not, why is it reasonable to allow players to play in an unlimited fashion, but dangerous to place too many things in the game to spend their time on?

    You say "can't we at least have a conversation" but you "come on" me like what you're saying is so obvious I should simply agree with you by fiat, and you compare MCOC to "deranged" games in an unfavorable manner. But I'm the one that is failing to be sufficiently understanding of your clearly reasonable and objective position.

    Is there a nuanced conversation to have here? Sure. But calling out the Magic Heist of all things in the game as the exemplar of this issue isn't signaling a nuanced conversation. No one is or could reasonably be complaining about the time demands of Magic Heist. They are complaining about the need to be consistent. Things like AQ and AW place far more demands on player time. Trying to frame player complaints about the Magic Heist rewards in terms of excessive time demands by the game is intellectually dishonest.

    The problem is probably completists, of which I count myself as one. Most players probably aren't doing AQ and AW and BG and EQ and SQ and Incursions and arena grinding and the double track objectives and and and. Most players play casually, and do not do everything nor do they try. But the problem is it is still actually possible to try to stretch and do everything, or something close to everything. But what if the game continues to expand to the point where that becomes literally impossible. Then what? Maybe the problem is not the game, the problem is the attitude that a player *should* be able to do everything. The last time I went to Disneyland I couldn't do everything. I didn't consider that to be a failing of the park. Maybe it is up to the players to decide which things to do on which days, because it is impossible to do everything nor should they try.

    I'm what most would consider a very active player. I log in multiple times a day. But I do take vacations, and when I travel I generally downshift my gameplay to a much lower level. I stop doing as much arena grinding, if at all. I only log in a few times a day, once in the morning, once in the evening, and once in the middle of the day somewhere to do AQ and or AW paths if I can, and sometimes I cannot. I choose to reduce my game play to accommodate my circumstances, and accept that I will be getting less. I prioritize alliance activities, because that's what I choose to do, in part because I am an alliance leader. I make choices, and I live with them.

    The question is, does that make me a super human exemplar of homo sapiens achievement that mere mortals should aspire to but never likely reach, or should that be considered a reasonable expectation for the average person to be responsible for in their life. I tend to lean towards the latter.
    It isn't about underfilling the game, it's about allowing players to complete stuff at their own time and leisuire, and not restricted to daily schedules like the current AQ, AW, BGs, Side Events, Solo Objectives, and other objectives (such as Magic Heist). Of course, 1 or 2 things having to be completed daily is fine, but let's not act like if half of the above were on weekly/biweekly/monthly timers, the game would suddenly feel 'underfilled'. You're making a strawman argument.

    Even if I agree with a lot of what you said, it all inevitably boils down to time management, as I also mentioned. If the best way to spend my time in the game currently boils down to spending 5 minutes a day on arena, as this will reap the greatest rewards, then it is once again, BAD GAME DESIGN, as what is being rewarded here is not my skill, roster, or years of experience, but remembering to complete a tedious activity on a 24 hour cycle.
    Where it the Big Book of Game Design does it say that challenging memory and time management is bad game design? That's literally just making stuff up. Most online games are all about player engagement. Actually rewarding players who are actually engaged enough to log in every day and do a task isn't bad game design. It just game design.

    Doing what you want when you want is not game design, it is sandbox design. If that's what you want, that's the genre of game you should look for. That, or Calvinball.
    Again with the strawman. Why are you purposely avoiding my points and misrepresenting them? I clearly stated it is fine to reward daily engagement, but there should be a limit. Currently, we already have daily engagement rewarded with calender, AQ, AW, 22 hour solo events, daily solo objectives, revive farm, side events, BGs, and even certain arenas. Why is there extra stuff being added to this list? It is very clearly bloated enough as it is.

    I never implied people should be allowed to complete ALL content WHENEVER they wanted with 0 time restrictions. If you don't see how overwhelming this is to many and are still defending it, you very clearly haven't learned much from all your 'game design' studies. The ultimate goal shouldn't be to overfill your game with 24 hour rotation engagement farms. As I said, even with grossly belligerent games in regards to daily engagement such as Lost Ark don't have as much content you must do daily.
  • Options
    PT_99PT_99 Posts: 2,392 ★★★★★
    I also missed 1 or 2 days but then I realised my mistake and decided to not repeat that and now tomorrow I will have that gem.

    "One who doesn't learn from others mistakes is careless but one who doesn't learn from his own is a fool."
    🤯
  • Options
    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,694 Guardian
    Spiderclaws said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Spiderclaws said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Spiderclaws said:

    Even the Reddit is more understanding of criticism than the forums.

    Certain kinds of criticism, sometimes. However, once they tire of a line of criticism, they are also much less forgiving, and less moderated against being unforgiving.
    Spiderclaws said:

    You studied game design since you were 11, yet you think this should be normalized in games? Comeon. Even while playing deranged P2W games like Lost Ark, I had less to do per day WITH catch up mechanics lol. In MCOC, there are 0 catch up mechanics, and by missing a day, you will not only be letting yourself down but potentially letting down teammates too.

    It's a wonder why people are so burnt out, and more and more threads are popping up on the forums of how players are sick of it. FYI, I am certainly not one of those people, but can't we at least have a conversations about this without people being up in arms for saying something against the game? Even the Reddit is more understanding of criticism than the forums.

    I am no more "up in arms" than you are. As to your point here, the question is one that is a pretty controversial one in game theory. The question is, is it reasonable for a game to have more content than a player could possibly do? Is it the responsibility of the game developer to deliberately under fill their games so that players are basically forced to take breaks from the game?

    Consider why we have quest energy in the first place. I'm sure there are lots of players who wish quest energy didn't exist, so they could just play whatever they wanted whenever they wanted however much they want. Is that a reasonable request to make? Do game developers have a responsibility to restrict things like quest energy, specifically to throttle game play? If not, why is it reasonable to allow players to play in an unlimited fashion, but dangerous to place too many things in the game to spend their time on?

    You say "can't we at least have a conversation" but you "come on" me like what you're saying is so obvious I should simply agree with you by fiat, and you compare MCOC to "deranged" games in an unfavorable manner. But I'm the one that is failing to be sufficiently understanding of your clearly reasonable and objective position.

    Is there a nuanced conversation to have here? Sure. But calling out the Magic Heist of all things in the game as the exemplar of this issue isn't signaling a nuanced conversation. No one is or could reasonably be complaining about the time demands of Magic Heist. They are complaining about the need to be consistent. Things like AQ and AW place far more demands on player time. Trying to frame player complaints about the Magic Heist rewards in terms of excessive time demands by the game is intellectually dishonest.

    The problem is probably completists, of which I count myself as one. Most players probably aren't doing AQ and AW and BG and EQ and SQ and Incursions and arena grinding and the double track objectives and and and. Most players play casually, and do not do everything nor do they try. But the problem is it is still actually possible to try to stretch and do everything, or something close to everything. But what if the game continues to expand to the point where that becomes literally impossible. Then what? Maybe the problem is not the game, the problem is the attitude that a player *should* be able to do everything. The last time I went to Disneyland I couldn't do everything. I didn't consider that to be a failing of the park. Maybe it is up to the players to decide which things to do on which days, because it is impossible to do everything nor should they try.

    I'm what most would consider a very active player. I log in multiple times a day. But I do take vacations, and when I travel I generally downshift my gameplay to a much lower level. I stop doing as much arena grinding, if at all. I only log in a few times a day, once in the morning, once in the evening, and once in the middle of the day somewhere to do AQ and or AW paths if I can, and sometimes I cannot. I choose to reduce my game play to accommodate my circumstances, and accept that I will be getting less. I prioritize alliance activities, because that's what I choose to do, in part because I am an alliance leader. I make choices, and I live with them.

    The question is, does that make me a super human exemplar of homo sapiens achievement that mere mortals should aspire to but never likely reach, or should that be considered a reasonable expectation for the average person to be responsible for in their life. I tend to lean towards the latter.
    It isn't about underfilling the game, it's about allowing players to complete stuff at their own time and leisuire, and not restricted to daily schedules like the current AQ, AW, BGs, Side Events, Solo Objectives, and other objectives (such as Magic Heist). Of course, 1 or 2 things having to be completed daily is fine, but let's not act like if half of the above were on weekly/biweekly/monthly timers, the game would suddenly feel 'underfilled'. You're making a strawman argument.

    Even if I agree with a lot of what you said, it all inevitably boils down to time management, as I also mentioned. If the best way to spend my time in the game currently boils down to spending 5 minutes a day on arena, as this will reap the greatest rewards, then it is once again, BAD GAME DESIGN, as what is being rewarded here is not my skill, roster, or years of experience, but remembering to complete a tedious activity on a 24 hour cycle.
    Where it the Big Book of Game Design does it say that challenging memory and time management is bad game design? That's literally just making stuff up. Most online games are all about player engagement. Actually rewarding players who are actually engaged enough to log in every day and do a task isn't bad game design. It just game design.

    Doing what you want when you want is not game design, it is sandbox design. If that's what you want, that's the genre of game you should look for. That, or Calvinball.
    Again with the strawman. Why are you purposely avoiding my points and misrepresenting them? I clearly stated it is fine to reward daily engagement, but there should be a limit. Currently, we already have daily engagement rewarded with calender, AQ, AW, 22 hour solo events, daily solo objectives, revive farm, side events, BGs, and even certain arenas. Why is there extra stuff being added to this list? It is very clearly bloated enough as it is.

    I never implied people should be allowed to complete ALL content WHENEVER they wanted with 0 time restrictions. If you don't see how overwhelming this is to many and are still defending it, you very clearly haven't learned much from all your 'game design' studies. The ultimate goal shouldn't be to overfill your game with 24 hour rotation engagement farms. As I said, even with grossly belligerent games in regards to daily engagement such as Lost Ark don't have as much content you must do daily.
    I actually quoted you, and I will quote you again:

    "It isn't about underfilling the game, it's about allowing players to complete stuff at their own time and leisuire, and not restricted to daily schedules like the current AQ, AW, BGs, Side Events, Solo Objectives, and other objectives (such as Magic Heist). Of course, 1 or 2 things having to be completed daily is fine, but let's not act like if half of the above were on weekly/biweekly/monthly timers, the game would suddenly feel 'underfilled'. You're making a strawman argument."

    I've found when people start making strawman declarations about their own arguments, that's not only the end of the argument, that's generally a sign to avoid spelunking that particular mental sinkhole.
  • Options
    doctorbdoctorb Posts: 1,728 ★★★
    I missed a few days also so won't get the final prize but...my fault so...do wish Karam would give us a chance to get extra tickets, even if we have to buy them.😉
  • Options
    O8sO8s Posts: 74 ★
    You get points for completing the objective not for getting the tickets, so buying 2 more tickets wouldn't get you 2 more points... it sucks, I agree it sucks, I agree that I busted my butt to login in everyday and do all the everyday stuff and still somehow came up 2 measly points short. I don't believe anything will come of it, I think it's good for people to let the overlords know we're unhappy and maybe in the future they change something to make it better, but other than that, only thing to do is take the loss, move on, and try not to feed the hurray for me sucks to be you trolls.
  • Options
    ItsClobberinTimeItsClobberinTime Posts: 3,367 ★★★★★
    Unrelated but am I the only one? 🙃

    Bullseye's pissing me off too much in BGs lol.
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