How come Quicksilver and Spiderman 2099 (and maybe others too) get dex failed by Photon…

SecondSkrillerSecondSkriller Member Posts: 1,319 ★★★★★
in General Discussion
It says in their kit that "when dashing back, they cannot be struck by attacks". This ability works just fine for Silk and Nightcrawler, but for some reason Quicksilver and Spiderman 2099 get hit by Photon…
At first I thought this must be because Silk is immune to the dex mastery, but Nightcrawler isn’t.
@Kabam Miike please look into this I bet this has been a bug since the Domino era with these champions being able to get hit while dashing backwards. @DNA3000 can you pass this along aswell? It’s been so many years and now that the newly buffed Nightcrawler can do this there’s no reason why this should be overlooked any longer

Comments

  • PikoluPikolu Member, Guardian Posts: 7,786 Guardian
    SecondSkriller said:

    13579rebel_ said:

    I believe that you need to turn off Dex for the ability to work for some champions

    That makes ZERO sense. It’s a stupid rule and it should GO! Especially since it doesn’t respect the ability description and since Nightcrawler and Silk can do it without turning off the single most essential mastery in the game…
    Silk and Nightcrawler have different wordings in their descriptions as opposed to Quicksilver and Spidey2099.

    In silks she gains no benefit from dex, so she isn't affected by it.


    Spidey2099 has no mention of dexterity because he doesn't remove it and you can tell he uses it because neutralize from Wiccan incinerates him when he dexes.


    I did think that Quicksilver could dex pure light photon though since he replaces dex, but I haven't tried in a long time.



  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 7,679 ★★★★★
    edited May 15
    Yeah if you have Dexterity active, Photon can still fail it. So can Domino
  • Yukzii_IIYukzii_II Member Posts: 187 ★★
    Pikolu said:

    SecondSkriller said:

    13579rebel_ said:

    I believe that you need to turn off Dex for the ability to work for some champions

    That makes ZERO sense. It’s a stupid rule and it should GO! Especially since it doesn’t respect the ability description and since Nightcrawler and Silk can do it without turning off the single most essential mastery in the game…
    Silk and Nightcrawler have different wordings in their descriptions as opposed to Quicksilver and Spidey2099.

    In silks she gains no benefit from dex, so she isn't affected by it.


    Spidey2099 has no mention of dexterity because he doesn't remove it and you can tell he uses it because neutralize from Wiccan incinerates him when he dexes.


    I did think that Quicksilver could dex pure light photon though since he replaces dex, but I haven't tried in a long time.



    You mentioned another thing that doesn’t make sense, people like s2099 and titania still get incinerated from wiccans neutralise for some reason, I’d assume this would be an important thing to fix considering it is literally an immunity being broken. It’s been a thing since forever and is mildly annoying since technically I could just use another champion however it would be cool to be able to. Hopefully it gets fixed soon enough. Back on topic I do agree with op that all of them should just work the same in order to make things simpler for newer players.
  • captain_rogerscaptain_rogers Member Posts: 9,638 ★★★★★
    Yukzii_II said:

    Pikolu said:

    SecondSkriller said:

    13579rebel_ said:

    I believe that you need to turn off Dex for the ability to work for some champions

    That makes ZERO sense. It’s a stupid rule and it should GO! Especially since it doesn’t respect the ability description and since Nightcrawler and Silk can do it without turning off the single most essential mastery in the game…
    Silk and Nightcrawler have different wordings in their descriptions as opposed to Quicksilver and Spidey2099.

    In silks she gains no benefit from dex, so she isn't affected by it.


    Spidey2099 has no mention of dexterity because he doesn't remove it and you can tell he uses it because neutralize from Wiccan incinerates him when he dexes.


    I did think that Quicksilver could dex pure light photon though since he replaces dex, but I haven't tried in a long time.



    You mentioned another thing that doesn’t make sense, people like s2099 and titania still get incinerated from wiccans neutralise for some reason, I’d assume this would be an important thing to fix considering it is literally an immunity being broken. It’s been a thing since forever and is mildly annoying since technically I could just use another champion however it would be cool to be able to. Hopefully it gets fixed soon enough. Back on topic I do agree with op that all of them should just work the same in order to make things simpler for newer players.
    Well it isn't a bug to be fixed. It is working as intended. When titania dexes, first the precision will try to trigger, but is prevented by her buff immunity. But if she was neutralized, the precision will try to trigger, but now it fails due to aar. Basically neutralizes comes to play before buff immunity. Whether it's logical or not is another discussion, but it isn't a bug. I would personally see it to be changed tho
  • WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Member Posts: 1,471 ★★★
    Yukzii_II said:

    Pikolu said:

    SecondSkriller said:

    13579rebel_ said:

    I believe that you need to turn off Dex for the ability to work for some champions

    That makes ZERO sense. It’s a stupid rule and it should GO! Especially since it doesn’t respect the ability description and since Nightcrawler and Silk can do it without turning off the single most essential mastery in the game…
    Silk and Nightcrawler have different wordings in their descriptions as opposed to Quicksilver and Spidey2099.

    In silks she gains no benefit from dex, so she isn't affected by it.


    Spidey2099 has no mention of dexterity because he doesn't remove it and you can tell he uses it because neutralize from Wiccan incinerates him when he dexes.


    I did think that Quicksilver could dex pure light photon though since he replaces dex, but I haven't tried in a long time.



    You mentioned another thing that doesn’t make sense, people like s2099 and titania still get incinerated from wiccans neutralise for some reason, I’d assume this would be an important thing to fix considering it is literally an immunity being broken. It’s been a thing since forever and is mildly annoying since technically I could just use another champion however it would be cool to be able to. Hopefully it gets fixed soon enough. Back on topic I do agree with op that all of them should just work the same in order to make things simpler for newer players.
    That's working fine. If you have a chance to apply bleed on the opponent you first have to essentially win the chance roll that you'll activate before the opponents immunities can cancel it out. What you're talking about is the same thing just in reverse. The chance for the dex buff to activate is checked first and then it's immunities come into play, Wiccan just punishes the first part and not the second
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 7,679 ★★★★★
    captain_rogers said:

    Yukzii_II said:

    Pikolu said:

    SecondSkriller said:

    13579rebel_ said:

    I believe that you need to turn off Dex for the ability to work for some champions

    That makes ZERO sense. It’s a stupid rule and it should GO! Especially since it doesn’t respect the ability description and since Nightcrawler and Silk can do it without turning off the single most essential mastery in the game…
    Silk and Nightcrawler have different wordings in their descriptions as opposed to Quicksilver and Spidey2099.

    In silks she gains no benefit from dex, so she isn't affected by it.


    Spidey2099 has no mention of dexterity because he doesn't remove it and you can tell he uses it because neutralize from Wiccan incinerates him when he dexes.


    I did think that Quicksilver could dex pure light photon though since he replaces dex, but I haven't tried in a long time.



    You mentioned another thing that doesn’t make sense, people like s2099 and titania still get incinerated from wiccans neutralise for some reason, I’d assume this would be an important thing to fix considering it is literally an immunity being broken. It’s been a thing since forever and is mildly annoying since technically I could just use another champion however it would be cool to be able to. Hopefully it gets fixed soon enough. Back on topic I do agree with op that all of them should just work the same in order to make things simpler for newer players.
    Well it isn't a bug to be fixed. It is working as intended. When titania dexes, first the precision will try to trigger, but is prevented by her buff immunity. But if she was neutralized, the precision will try to trigger, but now it fails due to aar. Basically neutralizes comes to play before buff immunity. Whether it's logical or not is another discussion, but it isn't a bug. I would personally see it to be changed tho
    Then why would I use those champions then? I could rather use someone who’s incinerate immune instead
  • captain_rogerscaptain_rogers Member Posts: 9,638 ★★★★★
    EdisonLaw said:

    captain_rogers said:

    Yukzii_II said:

    Pikolu said:

    SecondSkriller said:

    13579rebel_ said:

    I believe that you need to turn off Dex for the ability to work for some champions

    That makes ZERO sense. It’s a stupid rule and it should GO! Especially since it doesn’t respect the ability description and since Nightcrawler and Silk can do it without turning off the single most essential mastery in the game…
    Silk and Nightcrawler have different wordings in their descriptions as opposed to Quicksilver and Spidey2099.

    In silks she gains no benefit from dex, so she isn't affected by it.


    Spidey2099 has no mention of dexterity because he doesn't remove it and you can tell he uses it because neutralize from Wiccan incinerates him when he dexes.


    I did think that Quicksilver could dex pure light photon though since he replaces dex, but I haven't tried in a long time.



    You mentioned another thing that doesn’t make sense, people like s2099 and titania still get incinerated from wiccans neutralise for some reason, I’d assume this would be an important thing to fix considering it is literally an immunity being broken. It’s been a thing since forever and is mildly annoying since technically I could just use another champion however it would be cool to be able to. Hopefully it gets fixed soon enough. Back on topic I do agree with op that all of them should just work the same in order to make things simpler for newer players.
    Well it isn't a bug to be fixed. It is working as intended. When titania dexes, first the precision will try to trigger, but is prevented by her buff immunity. But if she was neutralized, the precision will try to trigger, but now it fails due to aar. Basically neutralizes comes to play before buff immunity. Whether it's logical or not is another discussion, but it isn't a bug. I would personally see it to be changed tho
    Then why would I use those champions then? I could rather use someone who’s incinerate immune instead
    Yes but you can also use purify champ, or champ immune to aar, or champ who don't get dexterity buff (silk) as well
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Member Posts: 5,980 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    So this issue has been around for a while, although NC's behavior is a bit extra wonky to me.

    There's two completely separate "avoid getting hit" mechanics at play here, the Dexterity one and the "dash back no-hit" one, and my understanding is these aren't just different in description or even type (like say the difference between bleed damage and incinerate damage, which are both just damage the game is told to treat differently), but deep in the way the game actually causes the player to not get hit (I don't recall all the specifics, so I won't spit out potentially wrong details).

    When you have both, it seems the game doesn't always process them the way you'd expect. You'd expect "two bites at the apple" so to speak. Dexterity would have a chance to kick in, and "no-hit" would also have a chance to kick in. But that doesn't seem to be the case. If you have both and something that prevents evade attacks you, what seems to happen generally is Dex fails and then you get hit.

    If the champion explicitly turns off Dex, such as with Silk, then no problem: Dex can't fail because there is no Dex, and she can be "not-hit" when dashing back.

    But it seems Nightcrawler *does* get two bites at the apple. He doesn't seem to turn off Dex - in fact you can see Dex failure messages - but he can successfully avoid getting hit by Photon. This implies that the way he was constructed is in some way different from other champs in that he can fail Dex but still succeed at avoiding hit.

    Maybe that points the way to how to "fix" the other champs in the future, or maybe there's something special about Nightcrawler that can't be easily replicated. I'm not sure, but I'm sure the devs are aware of the situation, because if they somehow got NC to work correctly, certainly they must at least be considering if this should be made more universal. However, such things take time. Since NC was recently buffed, this might be an experiment to see if some novel new technology works better.

    @Pikolu

    This is definitely a weird bug. And, DNA, I don't think your explanation of 'explicitly turns off Dex" is quite the answer (not that I'm pretending to know what the answer is 😉)

    By my count, there are six champs that are supposed to have a Dexterity-replacement or enhancement; and most don't explicitly turn off Dex. Obviously the in-game text is just a simplified explanation of what's going on under the hood, but let's take a look:
    • Nightcrawler: His text says "When dodging back, Nightcrawler cannot be struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and Nightcrawler's other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    • Silk: Her text says "While dodging back, Silk cannot be struck by attacks. She does not benefit from the Dexterity mastery. "
    • Quicksilver: His text says "When dodging backwards, Quicksilver is not struck by attacks". His abilities specifically go on to say that the "Dexterity Mastery is replaced".
    • Vulture: His text says "While dashing backwards, Vulture is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and Vulture's other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    • Spider-Man 2099: His text says "While dodging backwards, Spider-Man 2099 is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, although of course, Spider-Man 2099 will be immune to the Dexterity buff.
    • Invisible woman: Her text says "While dodging backwards, Invisible Woman is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and her other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    I did a bit of testing with all six champs against the three champions who turn off Dex: Photon, Heimdall (with True Accuracy buff), and Domino (when opponent is Unlucky).

    My testing basically showed if you work against anyone, you work against all three; so at least that's consistent:
    • Nightcrawler (doesn't turn off Dex): He works just fine against Photon, Heimdall and Domino+Unlucky
    • Silk (Does turn off Dex): She also works just fine against Photon, Heimdall and Domino+Unlucky
    • Quicksilver (does turn off Dex): Unlike Silk, he doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Vulture (doesn't turn off Dex): He doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Spider-Man 2099 (not clear if he turns off Dex): He doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Invisible woman (doesn't turn off Dex): She doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    Anyhow, I don't have an explanation. But I thought a bit of extra information might be helpful for you or the game team to chew on, whilst you work it out for us 😉

  • SecondSkrillerSecondSkriller Member Posts: 1,319 ★★★★★
    Pikolu said:

    SecondSkriller said:

    13579rebel_ said:

    I believe that you need to turn off Dex for the ability to work for some champions

    That makes ZERO sense. It’s a stupid rule and it should GO! Especially since it doesn’t respect the ability description and since Nightcrawler and Silk can do it without turning off the single most essential mastery in the game…
    Silk and Nightcrawler have different wordings in their descriptions as opposed to Quicksilver and Spidey2099.

    In silks she gains no benefit from dex, so she isn't affected by it.


    Spidey2099 has no mention of dexterity because he doesn't remove it and you can tell he uses it because neutralize from Wiccan incinerates him when he dexes.


    I did think that Quicksilver could dex pure light photon though since he replaces dex, but I haven't tried in a long time.



    Does “CANNOT BE HIT WHILE DASHING BACK" not apply when a champion makes the dexterity mastery fail? Why is that? That makes NO sense.
  • SecondSkrillerSecondSkriller Member Posts: 1,319 ★★★★★
    EdisonLaw said:

    Yeah if you have Dexterity active, Photon can still fail it. So can Domino

    They do not need the dexterity mastery to dodge attacks, it says "cannot be hit while dashing back".
  • SecondSkrillerSecondSkriller Member Posts: 1,319 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    So this issue has been around for a while, although NC's behavior is a bit extra wonky to me.

    There's two completely separate "avoid getting hit" mechanics at play here, the Dexterity one and the "dash back no-hit" one, and my understanding is these aren't just different in description or even type (like say the difference between bleed damage and incinerate damage, which are both just damage the game is told to treat differently), but deep in the way the game actually causes the player to not get hit (I don't recall all the specifics, so I won't spit out potentially wrong details).

    When you have both, it seems the game doesn't always process them the way you'd expect. You'd expect "two bites at the apple" so to speak. Dexterity would have a chance to kick in, and "no-hit" would also have a chance to kick in. But that doesn't seem to be the case. If you have both and something that prevents evade attacks you, what seems to happen generally is Dex fails and then you get hit.

    If the champion explicitly turns off Dex, such as with Silk, then no problem: Dex can't fail because there is no Dex, and she can be "not-hit" when dashing back.

    But it seems Nightcrawler *does* get two bites at the apple. He doesn't seem to turn off Dex - in fact you can see Dex failure messages - but he can successfully avoid getting hit by Photon. This implies that the way he was constructed is in some way different from other champs in that he can fail Dex but still succeed at avoiding hit.

    Maybe that points the way to how to "fix" the other champs in the future, or maybe there's something special about Nightcrawler that can't be easily replicated. I'm not sure, but I'm sure the devs are aware of the situation, because if they somehow got NC to work correctly, certainly they must at least be considering if this should be made more universal. However, such things take time. Since NC was recently buffed, this might be an experiment to see if some novel new technology works better.

    How about they fix this for all these champs and not just future champs? Leave Nightcrawler as is and give some meaning to this damn ability to dash back and take no damage. If Nightcrawler can do it, so should the other ones.
  • SecondSkrillerSecondSkriller Member Posts: 1,319 ★★★★★
    Yukzii_II said:

    Pikolu said:

    SecondSkriller said:

    13579rebel_ said:

    I believe that you need to turn off Dex for the ability to work for some champions

    That makes ZERO sense. It’s a stupid rule and it should GO! Especially since it doesn’t respect the ability description and since Nightcrawler and Silk can do it without turning off the single most essential mastery in the game…
    Silk and Nightcrawler have different wordings in their descriptions as opposed to Quicksilver and Spidey2099.

    In silks she gains no benefit from dex, so she isn't affected by it.


    Spidey2099 has no mention of dexterity because he doesn't remove it and you can tell he uses it because neutralize from Wiccan incinerates him when he dexes.


    I did think that Quicksilver could dex pure light photon though since he replaces dex, but I haven't tried in a long time.



    You mentioned another thing that doesn’t make sense, people like s2099 and titania still get incinerated from wiccans neutralise for some reason, I’d assume this would be an important thing to fix considering it is literally an immunity being broken. It’s been a thing since forever and is mildly annoying since technically I could just use another champion however it would be cool to be able to. Hopefully it gets fixed soon enough. Back on topic I do agree with op that all of them should just work the same in order to make things simpler for newer players.
    Exactly, it even says "the dexterity mastery is replaced" on Quicksilver, so how come it fails? This should be looked into, same as the neutralize thing. A buff immune champ can’t gain buffs, so there should never be a possibility for them to fail, they are IMMUNE to them.
  • SecondSkrillerSecondSkriller Member Posts: 1,319 ★★★★★
    WednesdayLength said:

    Yukzii_II said:

    Pikolu said:

    SecondSkriller said:

    13579rebel_ said:

    I believe that you need to turn off Dex for the ability to work for some champions

    That makes ZERO sense. It’s a stupid rule and it should GO! Especially since it doesn’t respect the ability description and since Nightcrawler and Silk can do it without turning off the single most essential mastery in the game…
    Silk and Nightcrawler have different wordings in their descriptions as opposed to Quicksilver and Spidey2099.

    In silks she gains no benefit from dex, so she isn't affected by it.


    Spidey2099 has no mention of dexterity because he doesn't remove it and you can tell he uses it because neutralize from Wiccan incinerates him when he dexes.


    I did think that Quicksilver could dex pure light photon though since he replaces dex, but I haven't tried in a long time.



    You mentioned another thing that doesn’t make sense, people like s2099 and titania still get incinerated from wiccans neutralise for some reason, I’d assume this would be an important thing to fix considering it is literally an immunity being broken. It’s been a thing since forever and is mildly annoying since technically I could just use another champion however it would be cool to be able to. Hopefully it gets fixed soon enough. Back on topic I do agree with op that all of them should just work the same in order to make things simpler for newer players.
    That's working fine. If you have a chance to apply bleed on the opponent you first have to essentially win the chance roll that you'll activate before the opponents immunities can cancel it out. What you're talking about is the same thing just in reverse. The chance for the dex buff to activate is checked first and then it's immunities come into play, Wiccan just punishes the first part and not the second
    Complicated and unnecessary, immunities before probability.
  • SecondSkrillerSecondSkriller Member Posts: 1,319 ★★★★★
    Magrailothos said:

    DNA3000 said:

    So this issue has been around for a while, although NC's behavior is a bit extra wonky to me.

    There's two completely separate "avoid getting hit" mechanics at play here, the Dexterity one and the "dash back no-hit" one, and my understanding is these aren't just different in description or even type (like say the difference between bleed damage and incinerate damage, which are both just damage the game is told to treat differently), but deep in the way the game actually causes the player to not get hit (I don't recall all the specifics, so I won't spit out potentially wrong details).

    When you have both, it seems the game doesn't always process them the way you'd expect. You'd expect "two bites at the apple" so to speak. Dexterity would have a chance to kick in, and "no-hit" would also have a chance to kick in. But that doesn't seem to be the case. If you have both and something that prevents evade attacks you, what seems to happen generally is Dex fails and then you get hit.

    If the champion explicitly turns off Dex, such as with Silk, then no problem: Dex can't fail because there is no Dex, and she can be "not-hit" when dashing back.

    But it seems Nightcrawler *does* get two bites at the apple. He doesn't seem to turn off Dex - in fact you can see Dex failure messages - but he can successfully avoid getting hit by Photon. This implies that the way he was constructed is in some way different from other champs in that he can fail Dex but still succeed at avoiding hit.

    Maybe that points the way to how to "fix" the other champs in the future, or maybe there's something special about Nightcrawler that can't be easily replicated. I'm not sure, but I'm sure the devs are aware of the situation, because if they somehow got NC to work correctly, certainly they must at least be considering if this should be made more universal. However, such things take time. Since NC was recently buffed, this might be an experiment to see if some novel new technology works better.

    @Pikolu

    This is definitely a weird bug. And, DNA, I don't think your explanation of 'explicitly turns off Dex" is quite the answer (not that I'm pretending to know what the answer is 😉)

    By my count, there are six champs that are supposed to have a Dexterity-replacement or enhancement; and most don't explicitly turn off Dex. Obviously the in-game text is just a simplified explanation of what's going on under the hood, but let's take a look:
    • Nightcrawler: His text says "When dodging back, Nightcrawler cannot be struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and Nightcrawler's other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    • Silk: Her text says "While dodging back, Silk cannot be struck by attacks. She does not benefit from the Dexterity mastery. "
    • Quicksilver: His text says "When dodging backwards, Quicksilver is not struck by attacks". His abilities specifically go on to say that the "Dexterity Mastery is replaced".
    • Vulture: His text says "While dashing backwards, Vulture is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and Vulture's other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    • Spider-Man 2099: His text says "While dodging backwards, Spider-Man 2099 is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, although of course, Spider-Man 2099 will be immune to the Dexterity buff.
    • Invisible woman: Her text says "While dodging backwards, Invisible Woman is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and her other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    I did a bit of testing with all six champs against the three champions who turn off Dex: Photon, Heimdall (with True Accuracy buff), and Domino (when opponent is Unlucky).

    My testing basically showed if you work against anyone, you work against all three; so at least that's consistent:
    • Nightcrawler (doesn't turn off Dex): He works just fine against Photon, Heimdall and Domino+Unlucky
    • Silk (Does turn off Dex): She also works just fine against Photon, Heimdall and Domino+Unlucky
    • Quicksilver (does turn off Dex): Unlike Silk, he doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Vulture (doesn't turn off Dex): He doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Spider-Man 2099 (not clear if he turns off Dex): He doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Invisible woman (doesn't turn off Dex): She doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    Anyhow, I don't have an explanation. But I thought a bit of extra information might be helpful for you or the game team to chew on, whilst you work it out for us 😉

    Void can turn off dex aswell 🤓
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 7,679 ★★★★★
    SecondSkriller said:

    Magrailothos said:

    DNA3000 said:

    So this issue has been around for a while, although NC's behavior is a bit extra wonky to me.

    There's two completely separate "avoid getting hit" mechanics at play here, the Dexterity one and the "dash back no-hit" one, and my understanding is these aren't just different in description or even type (like say the difference between bleed damage and incinerate damage, which are both just damage the game is told to treat differently), but deep in the way the game actually causes the player to not get hit (I don't recall all the specifics, so I won't spit out potentially wrong details).

    When you have both, it seems the game doesn't always process them the way you'd expect. You'd expect "two bites at the apple" so to speak. Dexterity would have a chance to kick in, and "no-hit" would also have a chance to kick in. But that doesn't seem to be the case. If you have both and something that prevents evade attacks you, what seems to happen generally is Dex fails and then you get hit.

    If the champion explicitly turns off Dex, such as with Silk, then no problem: Dex can't fail because there is no Dex, and she can be "not-hit" when dashing back.

    But it seems Nightcrawler *does* get two bites at the apple. He doesn't seem to turn off Dex - in fact you can see Dex failure messages - but he can successfully avoid getting hit by Photon. This implies that the way he was constructed is in some way different from other champs in that he can fail Dex but still succeed at avoiding hit.

    Maybe that points the way to how to "fix" the other champs in the future, or maybe there's something special about Nightcrawler that can't be easily replicated. I'm not sure, but I'm sure the devs are aware of the situation, because if they somehow got NC to work correctly, certainly they must at least be considering if this should be made more universal. However, such things take time. Since NC was recently buffed, this might be an experiment to see if some novel new technology works better.

    @Pikolu

    This is definitely a weird bug. And, DNA, I don't think your explanation of 'explicitly turns off Dex" is quite the answer (not that I'm pretending to know what the answer is 😉)

    By my count, there are six champs that are supposed to have a Dexterity-replacement or enhancement; and most don't explicitly turn off Dex. Obviously the in-game text is just a simplified explanation of what's going on under the hood, but let's take a look:
    • Nightcrawler: His text says "When dodging back, Nightcrawler cannot be struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and Nightcrawler's other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    • Silk: Her text says "While dodging back, Silk cannot be struck by attacks. She does not benefit from the Dexterity mastery. "
    • Quicksilver: His text says "When dodging backwards, Quicksilver is not struck by attacks". His abilities specifically go on to say that the "Dexterity Mastery is replaced".
    • Vulture: His text says "While dashing backwards, Vulture is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and Vulture's other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    • Spider-Man 2099: His text says "While dodging backwards, Spider-Man 2099 is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, although of course, Spider-Man 2099 will be immune to the Dexterity buff.
    • Invisible woman: Her text says "While dodging backwards, Invisible Woman is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and her other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    I did a bit of testing with all six champs against the three champions who turn off Dex: Photon, Heimdall (with True Accuracy buff), and Domino (when opponent is Unlucky).

    My testing basically showed if you work against anyone, you work against all three; so at least that's consistent:
    • Nightcrawler (doesn't turn off Dex): He works just fine against Photon, Heimdall and Domino+Unlucky
    • Silk (Does turn off Dex): She also works just fine against Photon, Heimdall and Domino+Unlucky
    • Quicksilver (does turn off Dex): Unlike Silk, he doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Vulture (doesn't turn off Dex): He doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Spider-Man 2099 (not clear if he turns off Dex): He doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Invisible woman (doesn't turn off Dex): She doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    Anyhow, I don't have an explanation. But I thought a bit of extra information might be helpful for you or the game team to chew on, whilst you work it out for us 😉

    Void can turn off dex aswell 🤓
    I forgot about that
  • e_BULKe_BULK Member Posts: 26 ★
    Jabari Panther can also bypass dexterity during The Hunt.
  • Bugmat78Bugmat78 Member Posts: 2,381 ★★★★★
    IIRC That buff immunity neutralise came up and it was basically admitted it was a coding limitation at the time. In an ideal (and hopefully near future) world that gets fixed. Same with this dex/no dex bug.
  • OrtounOrtoun Member Posts: 838 ★★★★
    Magrailothos said:

    DNA3000 said:

    So this issue has been around for a while, although NC's behavior is a bit extra wonky to me.

    There's two completely separate "avoid getting hit" mechanics at play here, the Dexterity one and the "dash back no-hit" one, and my understanding is these aren't just different in description or even type (like say the difference between bleed damage and incinerate damage, which are both just damage the game is told to treat differently), but deep in the way the game actually causes the player to not get hit (I don't recall all the specifics, so I won't spit out potentially wrong details).

    When you have both, it seems the game doesn't always process them the way you'd expect. You'd expect "two bites at the apple" so to speak. Dexterity would have a chance to kick in, and "no-hit" would also have a chance to kick in. But that doesn't seem to be the case. If you have both and something that prevents evade attacks you, what seems to happen generally is Dex fails and then you get hit.

    If the champion explicitly turns off Dex, such as with Silk, then no problem: Dex can't fail because there is no Dex, and she can be "not-hit" when dashing back.

    But it seems Nightcrawler *does* get two bites at the apple. He doesn't seem to turn off Dex - in fact you can see Dex failure messages - but he can successfully avoid getting hit by Photon. This implies that the way he was constructed is in some way different from other champs in that he can fail Dex but still succeed at avoiding hit.

    Maybe that points the way to how to "fix" the other champs in the future, or maybe there's something special about Nightcrawler that can't be easily replicated. I'm not sure, but I'm sure the devs are aware of the situation, because if they somehow got NC to work correctly, certainly they must at least be considering if this should be made more universal. However, such things take time. Since NC was recently buffed, this might be an experiment to see if some novel new technology works better.

    @Pikolu

    This is definitely a weird bug. And, DNA, I don't think your explanation of 'explicitly turns off Dex" is quite the answer (not that I'm pretending to know what the answer is 😉)

    By my count, there are six champs that are supposed to have a Dexterity-replacement or enhancement; and most don't explicitly turn off Dex. Obviously the in-game text is just a simplified explanation of what's going on under the hood, but let's take a look:
    • Nightcrawler: His text says "When dodging back, Nightcrawler cannot be struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and Nightcrawler's other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    • Silk: Her text says "While dodging back, Silk cannot be struck by attacks. She does not benefit from the Dexterity mastery. "
    • Quicksilver: His text says "When dodging backwards, Quicksilver is not struck by attacks". His abilities specifically go on to say that the "Dexterity Mastery is replaced".
    • Vulture: His text says "While dashing backwards, Vulture is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and Vulture's other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    • Spider-Man 2099: His text says "While dodging backwards, Spider-Man 2099 is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, although of course, Spider-Man 2099 will be immune to the Dexterity buff.
    • Invisible woman: Her text says "While dodging backwards, Invisible Woman is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and her other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    I did a bit of testing with all six champs against the three champions who turn off Dex: Photon, Heimdall (with True Accuracy buff), and Domino (when opponent is Unlucky).

    My testing basically showed if you work against anyone, you work against all three; so at least that's consistent:
    • Nightcrawler (doesn't turn off Dex): He works just fine against Photon, Heimdall and Domino+Unlucky
    • Silk (Does turn off Dex): She also works just fine against Photon, Heimdall and Domino+Unlucky
    • Quicksilver (does turn off Dex): Unlike Silk, he doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Vulture (doesn't turn off Dex): He doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Spider-Man 2099 (not clear if he turns off Dex): He doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Invisible woman (doesn't turn off Dex): She doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    Anyhow, I don't have an explanation. But I thought a bit of extra information might be helpful for you or the game team to chew on, whilst you work it out for us 😉

    How did you test vulture against domino+unlucky, I thought tech could never get unlucky
  • OrtounOrtoun Member Posts: 838 ★★★★
    Bugmat78 said:

    IIRC That buff immunity neutralise came up and it was basically admitted it was a coding limitation at the time. In an ideal (and hopefully near future) world that gets fixed. Same with this dex/no dex bug.

    RG, antman, and S2099 all have a benefit when immunity prevents a buff, so buffs have to actually try to trigger for them, since they try, they can be stopped by neutralize. Titania is the only one who shouldn't be affected by it since she gains no benefits from being immune to a buff, and if they really wanted to fix it they could just make her immune to neutralize and it wouldn't change anything else about her.
  • SecondSkrillerSecondSkriller Member Posts: 1,319 ★★★★★
    Bugmat78 said:

    IIRC That buff immunity neutralise came up and it was basically admitted it was a coding limitation at the time. In an ideal (and hopefully near future) world that gets fixed. Same with this dex/no dex bug.

    I made this thread because Nightcrawler can do it, so the coding should be fixed.
  • SecondSkrillerSecondSkriller Member Posts: 1,319 ★★★★★
    Ortoun said:

    Bugmat78 said:

    IIRC That buff immunity neutralise came up and it was basically admitted it was a coding limitation at the time. In an ideal (and hopefully near future) world that gets fixed. Same with this dex/no dex bug.

    RG, antman, and S2099 all have a benefit when immunity prevents a buff, so buffs have to actually try to trigger for them, since they try, they can be stopped by neutralize. Titania is the only one who shouldn't be affected by it since she gains no benefits from being immune to a buff, and if they really wanted to fix it they could just make her immune to neutralize and it wouldn't change anything else about her.
    That’s a good take
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Member Posts: 5,980 ★★★★★
    edited May 18
    SecondSkriller said:

    Magrailothos said:

    DNA3000 said:

    So this issue has been around for a while, although NC's behavior is a bit extra wonky to me.

    There's two completely separate "avoid getting hit" mechanics at play here, the Dexterity one and the "dash back no-hit" one, and my understanding is these aren't just different in description or even type (like say the difference between bleed damage and incinerate damage, which are both just damage the game is told to treat differently), but deep in the way the game actually causes the player to not get hit (I don't recall all the specifics, so I won't spit out potentially wrong details).

    When you have both, it seems the game doesn't always process them the way you'd expect. You'd expect "two bites at the apple" so to speak. Dexterity would have a chance to kick in, and "no-hit" would also have a chance to kick in. But that doesn't seem to be the case. If you have both and something that prevents evade attacks you, what seems to happen generally is Dex fails and then you get hit.

    If the champion explicitly turns off Dex, such as with Silk, then no problem: Dex can't fail because there is no Dex, and she can be "not-hit" when dashing back.

    But it seems Nightcrawler *does* get two bites at the apple. He doesn't seem to turn off Dex - in fact you can see Dex failure messages - but he can successfully avoid getting hit by Photon. This implies that the way he was constructed is in some way different from other champs in that he can fail Dex but still succeed at avoiding hit.

    Maybe that points the way to how to "fix" the other champs in the future, or maybe there's something special about Nightcrawler that can't be easily replicated. I'm not sure, but I'm sure the devs are aware of the situation, because if they somehow got NC to work correctly, certainly they must at least be considering if this should be made more universal. However, such things take time. Since NC was recently buffed, this might be an experiment to see if some novel new technology works better.

    @Pikolu

    This is definitely a weird bug. And, DNA, I don't think your explanation of 'explicitly turns off Dex" is quite the answer (not that I'm pretending to know what the answer is 😉)

    By my count, there are six champs that are supposed to have a Dexterity-replacement or enhancement; and most don't explicitly turn off Dex. Obviously the in-game text is just a simplified explanation of what's going on under the hood, but let's take a look:
    • Nightcrawler: His text says "When dodging back, Nightcrawler cannot be struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and Nightcrawler's other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    • Silk: Her text says "While dodging back, Silk cannot be struck by attacks. She does not benefit from the Dexterity mastery. "
    • Quicksilver: His text says "When dodging backwards, Quicksilver is not struck by attacks". His abilities specifically go on to say that the "Dexterity Mastery is replaced".
    • Vulture: His text says "While dashing backwards, Vulture is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and Vulture's other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    • Spider-Man 2099: His text says "While dodging backwards, Spider-Man 2099 is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, although of course, Spider-Man 2099 will be immune to the Dexterity buff.
    • Invisible woman: Her text says "While dodging backwards, Invisible Woman is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and her other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    I did a bit of testing with all six champs against the three champions who turn off Dex: Photon, Heimdall (with True Accuracy buff), and Domino (when opponent is Unlucky).

    My testing basically showed if you work against anyone, you work against all three; so at least that's consistent:
    • Nightcrawler (doesn't turn off Dex): He works just fine against Photon, Heimdall and Domino+Unlucky
    • Silk (Does turn off Dex): She also works just fine against Photon, Heimdall and Domino+Unlucky
    • Quicksilver (does turn off Dex): Unlike Silk, he doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Vulture (doesn't turn off Dex): He doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Spider-Man 2099 (not clear if he turns off Dex): He doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Invisible woman (doesn't turn off Dex): She doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    Anyhow, I don't have an explanation. But I thought a bit of extra information might be helpful for you or the game team to chew on, whilst you work it out for us 😉

    Void can turn off dex aswell 🤓
    Ortoun said:

    Magrailothos said:

    DNA3000 said:

    So this issue has been around for a while, although NC's behavior is a bit extra wonky to me.

    There's two completely separate "avoid getting hit" mechanics at play here, the Dexterity one and the "dash back no-hit" one, and my understanding is these aren't just different in description or even type (like say the difference between bleed damage and incinerate damage, which are both just damage the game is told to treat differently), but deep in the way the game actually causes the player to not get hit (I don't recall all the specifics, so I won't spit out potentially wrong details).

    When you have both, it seems the game doesn't always process them the way you'd expect. You'd expect "two bites at the apple" so to speak. Dexterity would have a chance to kick in, and "no-hit" would also have a chance to kick in. But that doesn't seem to be the case. If you have both and something that prevents evade attacks you, what seems to happen generally is Dex fails and then you get hit.

    If the champion explicitly turns off Dex, such as with Silk, then no problem: Dex can't fail because there is no Dex, and she can be "not-hit" when dashing back.

    But it seems Nightcrawler *does* get two bites at the apple. He doesn't seem to turn off Dex - in fact you can see Dex failure messages - but he can successfully avoid getting hit by Photon. This implies that the way he was constructed is in some way different from other champs in that he can fail Dex but still succeed at avoiding hit.

    Maybe that points the way to how to "fix" the other champs in the future, or maybe there's something special about Nightcrawler that can't be easily replicated. I'm not sure, but I'm sure the devs are aware of the situation, because if they somehow got NC to work correctly, certainly they must at least be considering if this should be made more universal. However, such things take time. Since NC was recently buffed, this might be an experiment to see if some novel new technology works better.

    @Pikolu

    This is definitely a weird bug. And, DNA, I don't think your explanation of 'explicitly turns off Dex" is quite the answer (not that I'm pretending to know what the answer is 😉)

    By my count, there are six champs that are supposed to have a Dexterity-replacement or enhancement; and most don't explicitly turn off Dex. Obviously the in-game text is just a simplified explanation of what's going on under the hood, but let's take a look:
    • Nightcrawler: His text says "When dodging back, Nightcrawler cannot be struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and Nightcrawler's other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    • Silk: Her text says "While dodging back, Silk cannot be struck by attacks. She does not benefit from the Dexterity mastery. "
    • Quicksilver: His text says "When dodging backwards, Quicksilver is not struck by attacks". His abilities specifically go on to say that the "Dexterity Mastery is replaced".
    • Vulture: His text says "While dashing backwards, Vulture is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and Vulture's other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    • Spider-Man 2099: His text says "While dodging backwards, Spider-Man 2099 is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, although of course, Spider-Man 2099 will be immune to the Dexterity buff.
    • Invisible woman: Her text says "While dodging backwards, Invisible Woman is not struck by attacks". This ability makes no mention of Dexterity, and her other abilities don't interact with Dexterity.
    I did a bit of testing with all six champs against the three champions who turn off Dex: Photon, Heimdall (with True Accuracy buff), and Domino (when opponent is Unlucky).

    My testing basically showed if you work against anyone, you work against all three; so at least that's consistent:
    • Nightcrawler (doesn't turn off Dex): He works just fine against Photon, Heimdall and Domino+Unlucky
    • Silk (Does turn off Dex): She also works just fine against Photon, Heimdall and Domino+Unlucky
    • Quicksilver (does turn off Dex): Unlike Silk, he doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Vulture (doesn't turn off Dex): He doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Spider-Man 2099 (not clear if he turns off Dex): He doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    • Invisible woman (doesn't turn off Dex): She doesn't work against Photon or Heimdall or Domino+Unlucky
    Anyhow, I don't have an explanation. But I thought a bit of extra information might be helpful for you or the game team to chew on, whilst you work it out for us 😉

    How did you test vulture against domino+unlucky, I thought tech could never get unlucky
    Sorry, cut-and-paste mistake whilst I was formatting that post.

    And I didn't test against Void, because it would take forever. Good call, though.
  • GinjabredMonstaGinjabredMonsta Member, Guardian Posts: 6,482 Guardian
    Because photon is broken and her rules go
  • SecondSkrillerSecondSkriller Member Posts: 1,319 ★★★★★
    GinjabredMonsta said:

    Because photon is broken and her rules go

    Not against Nightcrawler. It should be the case for all the listed champs without needing to take off the most important mastery in the game.
  • Bugmat78Bugmat78 Member Posts: 2,381 ★★★★★
    Ortoun said:

    Bugmat78 said:

    IIRC That buff immunity neutralise came up and it was basically admitted it was a coding limitation at the time. In an ideal (and hopefully near future) world that gets fixed. Same with this dex/no dex bug.

    RG, antman, and S2099 all have a benefit when immunity prevents a buff, so buffs have to actually try to trigger for them, since they try, they can be stopped by neutralize. Titania is the only one who shouldn't be affected by it since she gains no benefits from being immune to a buff, and if they really wanted to fix it they could just make her immune to neutralize and it wouldn't change anything else about her.
    The best thing would have been for neutralise to be in the chain behind buff immunity imho.

    Buff tries to trigger --> buff immunity -->neutralise any buffs that do trigger.

    The word neutralise implies there is something present to negate or make ineffective, but if there is no buff (due to immunities) it shouldn't impact a champ. It's a misnomer.
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