It’s like you want us to play less

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  • DrZolaDrZola Member Posts: 9,121 ★★★★★

    Before I provide an update, I just want to say that players tend to look at the game economy different than we do. We look at it holistically - are players who are engaged in the game progressing? The answer right now is definitely yes. Think about your own accounts compared to a year ago. If you play the game regularly I guaranteed you have made substantial progress, regardless of how much you are spending.

    A larger portion of rewards have been focused on events this year. We do this because we see a clear signal that it drives more player engagement than focusing those rewards into our regular modes. That doesn't mean they will never be updated, but it does mean more of the baseline reward budget is going to come from special events and things like the Daily Super Event.

    With that said, here are some specific updates:

    Loyalty Store - I have said elsewhere that it will not be updated. Introduction materials into the Loyalty store did not increase engagement in AW. The purpose of Loyalty moving forward will be to purchase AW consumables and maybe access the Loyalty 7-Star crystal (I say maybe because right now I am thinking about AW rewards structure changes and I think we might deprecate that system as well). Eventually we will probably remove the rank up materials etc. in the store.

    Glory Store - This is the next store up for an update, should not be too long.

    Battlegrounds - Battlegrounds as a whole remains one of the most rewarding modes in the game. We will continue to stagger reward updates to the different channels. I will say that a good portion of the GC rewards budget is in Trophy Tokens, so I don't agree with this take that it's been a year since GC rewards were updated. Updates to the BG store are also updates to GC rewards.

    EQ and SQ - Rewards are fine for the level difficulty. We have some large changes planned for these modes we are working on that will help us scale both difficulty and rewards in the future.

    Arenas - I said in a different thread, you don't want us to update Arenas. It would almost certainly result in lower Unit yields per time spent than the current tuning.

    Solo Shards - I see this one a lot, solo shards are a deprecated currency for end game players. The crystals will not be updated. Why are there solo shards in the Daily Super Event then? Because when we took them out the CCP asked us to put them back in. But I'll just state it plainly, they are not an end-game currency and never will be.


    I think that's what I can provide updates on right now, but for those calling for dramatic updates across the game, ask yourselves: do you really want the game's economy to be moving faster than it currently is? Do you want the 7-star lifecycle to be cut shorter, for us to introduce new ranks sooner? Because that would be the result of us updating every mode in the game to include end game rewards.

    I very much appreciate the Crashed response—it’s good to have a definitive statement on something like this even if it isn’t what many want to hear. I may not love it, but it’s something concrete upon which I can premise future roster & resource management decisions.

    The only quibble I have is the lack of comment on the Sigil. It’s become an inventory management tool for me more than anything else, but I think most would welcome even a slight uptick in items more suitable to Valiants new and old.

    Dr. Zola
  • Steam97Steam97 Member Posts: 222 ★★

    Eakomo said:

    Emilia90 said:

    Emilia90 said:

    I feel like there’s a fundamental disconnect in what Kabam and I consider high value rewards, especially for BG

    Never once in my post did I say I wanted the economy to speed up and that I wanted every store to have the highest end rewards. Why can’t they tune down the cost of t6cc since it’s so much more available now? Why can’t they lower the cost of relic shards and increase the cap? Are you telling me that having more 5* relics to purchase will break the game economy? Reduce some of the costs and increase the caps on certain items. 7* shards aren’t worth as much as they once were, another thing that could have a lowered cost

    For the ranked rewards, 6k 7* shards for placing in Quantum 1 is a joke. You also only get like 1k 6* relic shards. Is that all the game economy can spare? If you’re telling me some resources that can be spared and should be increased for the level of effort can’t be changed, I’m calling bs

    you say you don't want an accelerated economy but you're asking for cheaper t6cc, more 5*s relics, and a lowered cost of 7* shards "since they aren't worth as much". you're asking for acceleration lol
    Please tell me how more access to 5* relics and slightly cheapened 7* shards would negatively effect the economy. I’d love to hear how having access to more r5’s and r2’s would kill the momentum they have now and make the lifespan of a 7* lower. I’m not asking for the big r3 materials to be cheapened or for them to bring r4 materials in. We’ve already seen how much 7* and T6CC shards have plummeted in value and their cost is way too high for the current state of the economy

    Giving VALIANTS (endgame players) access to more r5 or r2 champs isn’t going to kill the game nor is it unhealthy. What are they going to do with relics? They’ve been paused. Is it going to kill them to include more relic shards? The current valiant store still thinks that T5CC is worth like 1600 trophy tokens which is a joke
    asking for more r5s and r2s accelerates more players up the chain which means they need a new title faster which means quicker t7b and accelerating more players to valiant which also means more t4a.

    more 5* relics will have the same effect. more 5*s relics means faster 5* saturation means accelerating 6*s and eventually putting out whatever's next.

    everything is linked and simple sounding changes have secondary effects.
    more r5/r2 is not moving anyone up the chain since the level required to move up to valiant is r3 7 stars, doesn't matter if you have 100 r5 or 1 as long as you're a valiant you are a valiant.

    giving more r5 options is good because then people can rank up whoever they want when they want not necessarily saving for the best option (if you're not in a case to rank up champs as easily as they come) and more players can widen the option in their rosters.

    and for relics as long as they are no new relics soon it's not a chase objective but a luxury to have, if you have all the relic doesn't mean anything different to not having half of them
    with more r5s/r2s, player progression in those areas will be fast tracked and they will move up in titles and they will suddenly reach content that is ahead of their skillset, even though their roster is better, and they will complain and get frustrated and it will open up a giant can of worms.

    and they will complain that deals aren't really targeting their roster progression that well because it's offering resources that can't really use (they'd rather gets 6* materials instead of 7* stuff)

    and i'm sure DNA can explain this but kabam can't have tons of players hanging around in similar pools, they need separation so they need to come up with another title that starts with the whales first then it trickles down to everyone else, which means fast tracking the highest end resources for the new title......which means speeding up the entire game and then we're right back to square one where everyone cries about 8*s.

    kabam isn't cheating us if every square inch of the game isn't spotless and updated to 2024 levels. they have a planned economy and are sticking to that, just because a few areas are old doesn't mean we're getting slighted and the game is "no longer fun".

    also keep in mind that buffing stores usually (probably?) happen a bit after the big deals (otherwise the deals wouldn't look enticing), so they're waiting on the economy to change before doing anything like that.

    A lot of things you just said aren't completely true. It's not true they aren't increasing the r5 and r2 catalysts because that would help too much players not worth it lol, if there are valiant players who still care a lot about 6 stars it's mainly because they don't have the champs they need as 7 stars and that's because 7 stars are still hard to get and it's way too early to get a new title, but they can't leave everything as it is until a new title appears cause the economy isn't stale, we saw an increase in rewards in Summer of Suffering compared to Spring of Sorrows for example.

    I understand they can't just give too many r2 materials away but honestly outside bg store you get very very few amounts of t6cc and if you don't push too much in bg then you get really behind, those catalysts should be more spread out, like in the glory store. AQ rewards and glory store (outside of raids, which honestly with the random chests can't be considered too much on how they impact the economy) haven't been updated for more than a year, since way before the valiant title appeared and saying they're outdated isn't even giving justice to them, those things are bad even for a paragon player. Instead of focusing on having all the good rewards in bg or war or special events they could have spread them out more using also AQ and the glory store. Last time they buffed the glory store was a couple of months after july 4th in 2023, then after last banquet event it wasn't touched and after all this year's sales wasn't touched, I know crashed said it's the next to be updated but it's already too late and it probably won't even happen anytime close since it looks like for kabam now raids completely overshadowed everything else AQ related, which is wrong imo since we still have those stupid random chests we can't even control. And yes the economy changed and a lot compared to the last glory store buff, but due to raids they just decided to ignore it and hope the players will forget the glory store exists since the glory is used to buy raid tickets.

    Then I don't even remember the last time they changed the eq and sq to be even somewhat interesting for the players, I remember the good old times when we actually were looking forward to the monthly content to have something enjoyable and useful, right now it's not useful and it's not enjoyable, I don't even know why they keep wasting time to design something a bit different every month, they really need to revamp the whole monthly events to create something which players look forward to and create more engagement since right now no one even cares about it
  • Bugmat78Bugmat78 Member Posts: 2,380 ★★★★★
    DocWest said:

    I wonder if they don’t want to update stores for 2 reasons.

    1) Players will progress too fast with more appropriate and relevant up materials that they get from all different types of game modes, most of which are easy. Obviously they don’t want us progressing this way.

    2) They want to keep all the desired resources behind a pay wall and as rewards for Everest content. If we could get similar materials from content like AQ, why bother with harder Everest content that most people spend or drain their resources to complete?



    I don’t agree with either of those reasons, but it’s what I believe is going on at this point in regards to all the various completely outdated stores.

    The problem I feel is that they introduced stuff like 7* Rank 3 way too fast. And now they are trying to slow it down outside of when they want to give us Rank 3 materials. They also don’t want every 7* we have easily sitting at Rank 2.

    Made a thread on this when it happened - though I got my first few 7r3 and was valiant after the first month by exploring necro and getting one from Cyber weekend. I really believe and still do that 7* rank progressions were too quick.

    We are now at a point where they have to release undertuned champs and dial up content to create an artificial pause which could have been planned by not jumping up 3 ranks so quickly. Regardless of whether 7stars have an extra top rank compared to 6 stars, just slowing everything down from the start would have made the chase feel better. We have jumped 3 ranks in half the time it took to do the same with 6 stars.
  • peixemacacopeixemacaco Member Posts: 2,979 ★★★★
    edited September 28
    Good points, but, what I see in Forums, is that the majority are free to play Summoners criticizing a game where the Summoners that pay for new champs and upgrades keep the game for everyone.

    And Kabam have the time to reply even to the FTP summoners, but why?

    They created the Forums ,so us could do the "job" to see bugs, tell them what is good or bad and even do tips for the game.

    But they see the game with another vision, simple, to have more people interested in so many events and quests, and in economical(money) terms to keep big accounts interested to keep paying and lower accounts to pay a few bucks to complete a quest and may progress in the game.

    So, they can keep the game up for more years.

    At the end, they would do changes only if their data shows they need, not only by a lot of summoners on a thread will change their mind....

    Just remember Serpent (never will be rebalanced) thread
    👍
  • PolygonPolygon Member Posts: 4,535 ★★★★★

    Before I provide an update, I just want to say that players tend to look at the game economy different than we do. We look at it holistically - are players who are engaged in the game progressing? The answer right now is definitely yes. Think about your own accounts compared to a year ago. If you play the game regularly I guaranteed you have made substantial progress, regardless of how much you are spending.

    A larger portion of rewards have been focused on events this year. We do this because we see a clear signal that it drives more player engagement than focusing those rewards into our regular modes. That doesn't mean they will never be updated, but it does mean more of the baseline reward budget is going to come from special events and things like the Daily Super Event.


    Arenas - I said in a different thread, you don't want us to update Arenas. It would almost certainly result in lower Unit yields per time spent than the current tuning.

    .

    Hey Crashed. Thanks as always for the info. Can I ask for one clarification though? You mention you don’t think an economy change in arenas would ultimately benefit the players and I certainly understand your point for the ones Monday to Saturday. However, would it be possible to tweak just Sunday and maybe throw in som 6* shards or a couple units. I can imagine that would be game breaking
    throwing units in the sunday arenas would cause the same problem. they would remove them from other areas of the game and we’d have to do more work for the same stuff.

    arenas shouldn’t be touched because it’ll be worse off for everyone and that’s guaranteed…
    Arena itself is tedious to get those units (this is coming from someone that maxes the milestones). Wouldn't you rather have them be put in other game modes? There's nothing as grindy and tedious as arena
  • ZuroZuro Member Posts: 2,865 ★★★★★
    Don't get me started on how they took FOREVER to update solo crystals that people hoarded now we are just stuck with these garbage iso and gold crystals
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Member Posts: 5,964 ★★★★★
    edited September 28
    CoMinow said:


    And for the record @kabam crashed didn’t actually update anything or provide any real information. Just his own opinions about the state of the game and our collective whining.

    If you don't understand how closely entwined Crashed's opinions and Kabam's official position are, then you haven't been paying attention. Maybe you should...
  • startropicsstartropics Member Posts: 881 ★★★★
    1199345 said:

    Stop confusing "game economy" with "how can we milk the whales"...

    There's definitely a tiered system, and the whales get the cream of the crop first. I have zero problem with that.

    What I have a problem with is the rest of us still earning the same bunk "rewards" for playing harder content with beefier AI against whales with tankier champs. Take Arena for example: The whales have stronger champs (rightfully so since they paid to get them) but, in turn, it directly makes Arena more difficult across the board FOR EVERYBODY, but the rewards are the same.

    Let's be real: Adding 10 or even 20 more units to the milestones won't break anything. Period.

    War is another example. That goalpost has shifted so far so fast due to whales, yet the upper mid and lower upper tiers are ultimately paying the price for, yet again, largely the same bunk "rewards".

    Again, let's be real: Beefing up the Loyalty Store won't break anything. Period.

    Back to my original point: Milk the whales with all the new shinier hardest to aquire materials/champs. That's fine. That's business. But at the same time realize that everyone else gets stomped on and receives stale bread and a bland cup of soup for their efforts...and their tired of eating both.

    The whales continue to be fed while the rest starve.

    It won't break the "game's economy" if you add slightly better, more updated rewards for the lower and middle tier players. You'll still be able to milk the whales out of 6 digits, but at the same time everyone else wll get to broaden their roster a little faster.

    Admit it: The whales and top tier players have launched into a different galaxy at this point, and the rest of us are still stuck here on Earth. We're not asking to catch up to them, but it would be nice to at least get to Mars...

    "milking the whales" is literally how this game is structured. something like a high-90-something-percent of players don't spend at all, so the whales have to be convinced to spend enough to make the game go around.

    your complaint is that we get higher difficulty war and arena fights? c'mon man, that's silly, but guess what? your account is considered a whale roster to players below you too. they probably think that their rewards are "bunk" too in comparison.

    if the average whale is spending $5k a year on the game, shouldn't they stomp f2p players in war and battlegrounds? if their spending didn't give them an advantage, why would they spend?

    they're also getting the least amount of bang for their buck. a $100k for a rank 5 and f2p are practically getting them for free by doing saga objectives a few years later. do you want to spend a hundred thousand dollars on something that will be a dime a dozen 20 months later?

    spenders are paying $100m to go to mars. sure, they'll be the first there, but they're funding an operation that will eventually send everyone else to mars for $10 bucks.
  • 11993451199345 Member Posts: 557 ★★★

    1199345 said:

    Stop confusing "game economy" with "how can we milk the whales"...

    There's definitely a tiered system, and the whales get the cream of the crop first. I have zero problem with that.

    What I have a problem with is the rest of us still earning the same bunk "rewards" for playing harder content with beefier AI against whales with tankier champs. Take Arena for example: The whales have stronger champs (rightfully so since they paid to get them) but, in turn, it directly makes Arena more difficult across the board FOR EVERYBODY, but the rewards are the same.

    Let's be real: Adding 10 or even 20 more units to the milestones won't break anything. Period.

    War is another example. That goalpost has shifted so far so fast due to whales, yet the upper mid and lower upper tiers are ultimately paying the price for, yet again, largely the same bunk "rewards".

    Again, let's be real: Beefing up the Loyalty Store won't break anything. Period.

    Back to my original point: Milk the whales with all the new shinier hardest to aquire materials/champs. That's fine. That's business. But at the same time realize that everyone else gets stomped on and receives stale bread and a bland cup of soup for their efforts...and their tired of eating both.

    The whales continue to be fed while the rest starve.

    It won't break the "game's economy" if you add slightly better, more updated rewards for the lower and middle tier players. You'll still be able to milk the whales out of 6 digits, but at the same time everyone else wll get to broaden their roster a little faster.

    Admit it: The whales and top tier players have launched into a different galaxy at this point, and the rest of us are still stuck here on Earth. We're not asking to catch up to them, but it would be nice to at least get to Mars...

    "milking the whales" is literally how this game is structured. something like a high-90-something-percent of players don't spend at all, so the whales have to be convinced to spend enough to make the game go around.

    your complaint is that we get higher difficulty war and arena fights? c'mon man, that's silly, but guess what? your account is considered a whale roster to players below you too. they probably think that their rewards are "bunk" too in comparison.

    if the average whale is spending $5k a year on the game, shouldn't they stomp f2p players in war and battlegrounds? if their spending didn't give them an advantage, why would they spend?

    they're also getting the least amount of bang for their buck. a $100k for a rank 5 and f2p are practically getting them for free by doing saga objectives a few years later. do you want to spend a hundred thousand dollars on something that will be a dime a dozen 20 months later?

    spenders are paying $100m to go to mars. sure, they'll be the first there, but they're funding an operation that will eventually send everyone else to mars for $10 bucks.
    Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit...go back and re-read my post...
  • Joker1976Joker1976 Member Posts: 723 ★★★
    I kind of like the stores the way they are.
    Not everyone want’s to feel they need to participate in everything in order to keep up.
    There are more special events and game modes then there were just a few years ago and i imagine resources need to be spread out.
    I haven’t participated in a AQ or AW in two years now as i find the game modes boring and repetitive.
    I would like to keep it that way and feel that i can get what i need from the game elsewhere.
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