Heimdall counter!!!

Mirage_Turtle · August 2018

BitterSteel wrote: »

I imagine in the dexterity description it is using evade as a verb, as in it doesn’t have any impact on ingame abilities. What I mean is, it is being used here in the same way that the word “dodge” or “avoid” would be used. It isn’t meant to imply that dexterity itself is an evade, as in the ingame evade ability. It is all very confusing but I hope I’ve explained everything.

You say the dexterity description is using the word "evade" generically, but the game uses the word very specifically (Capitalized, meaning it refers to an in-game action) in other areas of the game. Examples of this would be the ability descriptions of Spider-Gwen or Miles Morales or even the enigmatic node description for Ex. Miles Morales in LOL. I'm just not sure they'd use is the word generically in some places and very specifically in others. Although, maybe it's just a function of how early on the Dexterity mastery was introduced.

I can buy into what you're saying: dexterity allows for an action that works like an evade (because it is one), but it isn't coded that way. I think your best point is how the definition for True Strike is re-defined specifically for Heimdall, which tells me that they intended for Dexterity to Bypass True Strike initially, but now they are giving Heimdall "True True Strike".

I do understand what you're showing about Nightcrawler. His ability doesn't explicitly state "Evade" anywhere, so it doesn't count as one. Like I said before, I kind of like the niche use this gives Nightcrawler. However, he's dodging back and attacks are missing him as a result. That is one kind of evasion, whether Kabam calls it that or not.

It's like if I went to the lion exhibit at the zoo and I see the lion. It looks like a lion. It sounds like a lion. It behaves like a lion. If the zookeeper comes over and tells me it's a duck, I'm not going to believe it isn't a lion.

Nightcrawler's ability in question is a type of evade, but it's not subject to True Strike. I like the interaction and hope they don't change it. But it's definitely a type of evade no matter what kind of literary gymnastics are involved.

BitterSteel · August 2018

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

BitterSteel wrote: »

I imagine in the dexterity description it is using evade as a verb, as in it doesn’t have any impact on ingame abilities. What I mean is, it is being used here in the same way that the word “dodge” or “avoid” would be used. It isn’t meant to imply that dexterity itself is an evade, as in the ingame evade ability. It is all very confusing but I hope I’ve explained everything.

You say the dexterity description is using the word "evade" generically, but the game uses the word very specifically (Capitalized, meaning it refers to an in-game action) in other areas of the game. Examples of this would be the ability descriptions of Spider-Gwen or Miles Morales or even the enigmatic node description for Ex. Miles Morales in LOL. I'm just not sure they'd use is the word generically in some places and very specifically in others. Although, maybe it's just a function of how early on the Dexterity mastery was introduced.

I can buy into what you're saying: dexterity allows for an action that works like an evade (because it is one), but it isn't coded that way. I think your best point is how the definition for True Strike is re-defined specifically for Heimdall, which tells me that they intended for Dexterity to Bypass True Strike initially, but now they are giving Heimdall "True True Strike".

I do understand what you're showing about Nightcrawler. His ability doesn't explicitly state "Evade" anywhere, so it doesn't count as one. Like I said before, I kind of like the niche use this gives Nightcrawler. However, he's dodging back and attacks are missing him as a result. That is one kind of evasion, whether Kabam calls it that or not.

It's like if I went to the lion exhibit at the zoo and I see the lion. It looks like a lion. It sounds like a lion. It behaves like a lion. If the zookeeper comes over and tells me it's a duck, I'm not going to believe it isn't a lion.

Nightcrawler's ability in question is a type of evade, but it's not subject to True Strike. I like the interaction and hope they don't change it. But it's definitely a type of evade no matter what kind of literary gymnastics are involved.

I don't think the fact it’s captialised has much relevance. I mean, it’s the start of a sentence for one. Also, the word dodging is capitalised as well. Does that mean it’s a dodge, not an evade? I think you’ve answered yourself really, “I'm just not sure they'd use is the word generically in some places and very specifically in others. Although, maybe it's just a function of how early on the Dexterity mastery was introduced”

Dexterity was, I believe, in the first batch of masteries. This was years ago, back when the only evade in game was a few of the spidermen and daredevil. There wasn’t even any true strike in the game. I think the fact that dexterity predates true strike just proves my point. Dexterity came out first and they used the word evade to tell people that this mastery was similar to how Spider-Man and daredevil dodge their attacks. Then later, they brought in true strike and didn’t really think through the connotation it would have with dexterity.

Now with Heimdall, they really have made it confusing to some. I think that since, if kabam changed the word evade to avoid, in the dexterity description, every single encounter with in the game would make sense; why true strike doesn’t stop it, why heimdall’s does, why you can’t AAR dexterity. I think all of these just points to the fact that they mistakenly used an ability’s name as a verb, promoting confusion.

In the real world, yes from a logical point of view Night crawler does “evade” the attack. But, and this is the important distinction, from a purely Mcoc, game based, coding point of view, it is not an Evade mechanic.

Hammerbro_64 · August 2018

To the people who are saying true strike works fighting against Nc, that’s his PASSIVE evade. He can evade MANUALLY exactly like dexterity except he gets a passive cruelty and it isn’t affected by HD’s true strike

Mirage_Turtle · August 2018

BitterSteel wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

BitterSteel wrote: »

I imagine in the dexterity description it is using evade as a verb, as in it doesn’t have any impact on ingame abilities. What I mean is, it is being used here in the same way that the word “dodge” or “avoid” would be used. It isn’t meant to imply that dexterity itself is an evade, as in the ingame evade ability. It is all very confusing but I hope I’ve explained everything.

You say the dexterity description is using the word "evade" generically, but the game uses the word very specifically (Capitalized, meaning it refers to an in-game action) in other areas of the game. Examples of this would be the ability descriptions of Spider-Gwen or Miles Morales or even the enigmatic node description for Ex. Miles Morales in LOL. I'm just not sure they'd use is the word generically in some places and very specifically in others. Although, maybe it's just a function of how early on the Dexterity mastery was introduced.

I can buy into what you're saying: dexterity allows for an action that works like an evade (because it is one), but it isn't coded that way. I think your best point is how the definition for True Strike is re-defined specifically for Heimdall, which tells me that they intended for Dexterity to Bypass True Strike initially, but now they are giving Heimdall "True True Strike".

I do understand what you're showing about Nightcrawler. His ability doesn't explicitly state "Evade" anywhere, so it doesn't count as one. Like I said before, I kind of like the niche use this gives Nightcrawler. However, he's dodging back and attacks are missing him as a result. That is one kind of evasion, whether Kabam calls it that or not.

It's like if I went to the lion exhibit at the zoo and I see the lion. It looks like a lion. It sounds like a lion. It behaves like a lion. If the zookeeper comes over and tells me it's a duck, I'm not going to believe it isn't a lion.

Nightcrawler's ability in question is a type of evade, but it's not subject to True Strike. I like the interaction and hope they don't change it. But it's definitely a type of evade no matter what kind of literary gymnastics are involved.

I don't think the fact it’s captialised has much relevance. I mean, it’s the start of a sentence for one. Also, the word dodging is capitalised as well. Does that mean it’s a dodge, not an evade? I think you’ve answered yourself really, “I'm just not sure they'd use is the word generically in some places and very specifically in others. Although, maybe it's just a function of how early on the Dexterity mastery was introduced”

Dexterity was, I believe, in the first batch of masteries. This was years ago, back when the only evade in game was a few of the spidermen and daredevil. There wasn’t even any true strike in the game. I think the fact that dexterity predates true strike just proves my point. Dexterity came out first and they used the word evade to tell people that this mastery was similar to how Spider-Man and daredevil dodge their attacks. Then later, they brought in true strike and didn’t really think through the connotation it would have with dexterity.

Now with Heimdall, they really have made it confusing to some. I think that since, if kabam changed the word evade to avoid, in the dexterity description, every single encounter with in the game would make sense; why true strike doesn’t stop it, why heimdall’s does, why you can’t AAR dexterity. I think all of these just points to the fact that they mistakenly used an ability’s name as a verb, promoting confusion.

For the capitalization of "Evade", I wasn't referring to the evade mastery description, merely stating that capitalized words in the middle of sentences in this game refer to in-game actions or abilities and "Evade" is no different as illustrated by Gwen and Miles. This was used to show that Evade DOES refer to something specific in the game and not used generically, though like we've discussed, I think this is mostly due to the relative age of the Dexterity Mastery.

I like your idea of changing the language for the Dexterity Mastery. To your earlier point, Void's Intimidating Presence agility debuff specifically lists the Dexterity Mastery as something different than evade, though equally affected. Changing the Dexterity description to leave out the word "Evade" would make this quite a bit clearer. Good idea.

BitterSteel · August 2018

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

BitterSteel wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

BitterSteel wrote: »

I imagine in the dexterity description it is using evade as a verb, as in it doesn’t have any impact on ingame abilities. What I mean is, it is being used here in the same way that the word “dodge” or “avoid” would be used. It isn’t meant to imply that dexterity itself is an evade, as in the ingame evade ability. It is all very confusing but I hope I’ve explained everything.

You say the dexterity description is using the word "evade" generically, but the game uses the word very specifically (Capitalized, meaning it refers to an in-game action) in other areas of the game. Examples of this would be the ability descriptions of Spider-Gwen or Miles Morales or even the enigmatic node description for Ex. Miles Morales in LOL. I'm just not sure they'd use is the word generically in some places and very specifically in others. Although, maybe it's just a function of how early on the Dexterity mastery was introduced.

I can buy into what you're saying: dexterity allows for an action that works like an evade (because it is one), but it isn't coded that way. I think your best point is how the definition for True Strike is re-defined specifically for Heimdall, which tells me that they intended for Dexterity to Bypass True Strike initially, but now they are giving Heimdall "True True Strike".

I do understand what you're showing about Nightcrawler. His ability doesn't explicitly state "Evade" anywhere, so it doesn't count as one. Like I said before, I kind of like the niche use this gives Nightcrawler. However, he's dodging back and attacks are missing him as a result. That is one kind of evasion, whether Kabam calls it that or not.

It's like if I went to the lion exhibit at the zoo and I see the lion. It looks like a lion. It sounds like a lion. It behaves like a lion. If the zookeeper comes over and tells me it's a duck, I'm not going to believe it isn't a lion.

Nightcrawler's ability in question is a type of evade, but it's not subject to True Strike. I like the interaction and hope they don't change it. But it's definitely a type of evade no matter what kind of literary gymnastics are involved.

I don't think the fact it’s captialised has much relevance. I mean, it’s the start of a sentence for one. Also, the word dodging is capitalised as well. Does that mean it’s a dodge, not an evade? I think you’ve answered yourself really, “I'm just not sure they'd use is the word generically in some places and very specifically in others. Although, maybe it's just a function of how early on the Dexterity mastery was introduced”

Dexterity was, I believe, in the first batch of masteries. This was years ago, back when the only evade in game was a few of the spidermen and daredevil. There wasn’t even any true strike in the game. I think the fact that dexterity predates true strike just proves my point. Dexterity came out first and they used the word evade to tell people that this mastery was similar to how Spider-Man and daredevil dodge their attacks. Then later, they brought in true strike and didn’t really think through the connotation it would have with dexterity.

Now with Heimdall, they really have made it confusing to some. I think that since, if kabam changed the word evade to avoid, in the dexterity description, every single encounter with in the game would make sense; why true strike doesn’t stop it, why heimdall’s does, why you can’t AAR dexterity. I think all of these just points to the fact that they mistakenly used an ability’s name as a verb, promoting confusion.

For the capitalization of "Evade", I wasn't referring to the evade mastery description, merely stating that capitalized words in the middle of sentences in this game refer to in-game actions or abilities and "Evade" is no different as illustrated by Gwen and Miles. This was used to show that Evade DOES refer to something specific in the game and not used generically, though like we've discussed, I think this is mostly due to the relative age of the Dexterity Mastery.

I like your idea of changing the language for the Dexterity Mastery. To your earlier point, Void's Intimidating Presence agility debuff specifically lists the Dexterity Mastery as something different than evade, though equally affected. Changing the Dexterity description to leave out the word "Evade" would make this quite a bit clearer. Good idea.

Fair enough I think I misunderstood you there. I just don’t think that the word evade has any significance in that sentence beyond the fact that this mastery can help you dodge. I don’t disagree whatsoever about the fact that the word Evade does specify an ability but I just think it’s a poor choice of words in the dexterity description.

Yeah, Void just adds a bit more evidence (or at least suspicions) that something’s a bit wrong with the word evade in dexterity description.

Austin555555 · August 2018

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

Dexterity still works on true strike

Hammerbro_64 · August 2018

Austin555555 wrote: »

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

But True Strike negates all evade, mastery or otherwise.

I'm confused. You've tested this?

Dexterity still works on true strike

Only heimdalls true strike cancels dexterity

Rafikii · August 2018

i like to think of NCs BAMF as an iFrame in the MIDDLE of his dodge. so its not necessarily a "well timed dodge" like dex( where you dodge as youre about to get hit and it evades) as much as, in the middle of the Blue cloud animation hes just completely unhittable.
might sound a bit weird and sounds like the same thing. but i think of it like block and parry. if you parry early, youre still blocking. so you wont get the stun, but youre still reducing damage.
in this case, youre not getting an evade, but the passive iFrame in the dodge is still active.... if that makes any sense haha

Hammerbro_64 · August 2018

Ragman23 wrote: »

The way I understand it....true strike cancels auto evade. NC has 2 different passives. 1 is auto evade in neyaphem mode which can be suppressed by true strike. The other is bamf which he cant be hit while dodging back. True strike does not affect bamf or your ability to dodge/evade. Dexterity is a mastery term which they should change to referring to ability to evade projectile only. You can still evade without dexterity mastery, just wont be able to evade projectiles. No?

Actually you will find you get clipped and wrecked a lot more without dexterity at high level play. You can get back from attacks but you can’t “close shave” dodge them.

Bahamut · August 2018

Awesome, thanks. I have a 4* NC. That’ll make exploration a lot easier.

mAleksandar · August 2018

Guys, look at it like this:
When you actually use dexterity mastery you get yellow “dexterity” written next to your character and when a champ uses evade, he gets green “evade” written next to him. Now, as for when NC uses bamf, or whatever it’s called, he physically disappears for a part of the second in order to reappear on some other place ( let’s call it teleportation

). So, while champs with dexterity and evade abilities are physically present on a fighting stage while using them, NC is not, thus, Heimdall’s true strike doesn’t affect him since he uses teleportation or bamf how they called it...

Hammerbro_64 · August 2018

mAleksandar wrote: »

Guys, look at it like this:
When you actually use dexterity mastery you get yellow “dexterity” written next to your character and when a champ uses evade, he gets green “evade” written next to him. Now, as for when NC uses bamf, or whatever it’s called, he physically disappears for a part of the second in order to reappear on some other place ( let’s call it teleportation ). So, while champs with dexterity and evade abilities are physically present on a fighting stage while using them, NC is not, thus, Heimdall’s true strike doesn’t affect him since he uses teleportation or bamf how they called it...

Yup. That’s the science behind it I figure....now to figure out why Vulture works (probably) as well...

BitterSteel · August 2018

Hammerbro_64 wrote: »

mAleksandar wrote: »

Guys, look at it like this:
When you actually use dexterity mastery you get yellow “dexterity” written next to your character and when a champ uses evade, he gets green “evade” written next to him. Now, as for when NC uses bamf, or whatever it’s called, he physically disappears for a part of the second in order to reappear on some other place ( let’s call it teleportation ). So, while champs with dexterity and evade abilities are physically present on a fighting stage while using them, NC is not, thus, Heimdall’s true strike doesn’t affect him since he uses teleportation or bamf how they called it...

Yup. That’s the science behind it I figure....now to figure out why Vulture works (probably) as well...

I haven’t tested vulture, I’m just assuming he works the same as NC.

It’s just vultures version of bamf. Annoyingly, they’ve also used the word “Evade” which implies true strike would stop it, but I don’t think it would. I’ll test him when I get a chance tomorrow.

Hammerbro_64 · August 2018

Cool @BitterSteel
I’m about to hit the hay so best of luck to your research. If you hadn’t realized yet in the Thor the dark world quest there’s a Heimdall to use low level 3* against.

BitterSteel · August 2018

Hammerbro_64 wrote: »

Cool @BitterSteel
I’m about to hit the hay so best of luck to your research. If you hadn’t realized yet in the Thor the dark world quest there’s a Heimdall to use low level 3* against.

Cheers, eh I may as well do my master 100% runs on Heimdall quest!

Namelez · August 2018

Hammerbro_64 wrote: »

Use NC. He doesn’t use dexterity to evade manually and I have confirmed he can evade Heimdall with a TS buff. Pretty sure vulture can do it as well

Thank u bro ! I have a NC r5 and wanted to test this out ! LoL ik u in-game haha but now that ik for sure NC's bamf works I'ma take advantage of it! LoL

BitterSteel · August 2018

Hammerbro_64 wrote: »

Cool @BitterSteel
I’m about to hit the hay so best of luck to your research. If you hadn’t realized yet in the Thor the dark world quest there’s a Heimdall to use low level 3* against.

@Hammerbro_64 @Mirage_Turtle

Been testing vulture and he was actually unable to evade Heimdall’s L2. Which got me quite confused why night crawler works and why vulture doesn’t. Interestingly enough, he was able to avoid it by using his “miss” mechanic which unfortunately is sometimes tricky to pin down. I have a video of it, but as I don’t think you can upload videos if you’re interested in seeing it, PM me and we can sort out sending it on the Line App.

Jestr54 · August 2018

Hood’s invisibility does the same. It makes Heimdall miss

Mirage_Turtle · August 2018

BitterSteel wrote: »

Hammerbro_64 wrote: »

Cool @BitterSteel
I’m about to hit the hay so best of luck to your research. If you hadn’t realized yet in the Thor the dark world quest there’s a Heimdall to use low level 3* against.

@Hammerbro_64 @Mirage_Turtle

Been testing vulture and he was actually unable to evade Heimdall’s L2. Which got me quite confused why night crawler works and why vulture doesn’t. Interestingly enough, he was able to avoid it by using his “miss” mechanic which unfortunately is sometimes tricky to pin down. I have a video of it, but as I don’t think you can upload videos if you’re interested in seeing it, PM me and we can sort out sending it on the Line App.

Interesting...

Based on the wording, I would assume that Vulture would behave the same as Nightcrawler in this scenario at the cost of 10 Chitauri Energy. The only difference seems to be that Vulture's description explicitly says "Evade" while NC's doesn't.

Vulture: "Vulture Evades all attacks while Dodging back."
Nightcrawler: "While Dodging back, Nightcrawler cannot be struck by attacks."

I'm glad the Decoy mechanic works though, though logically I'm not sure it should. I've given up on trying to decipher Kabam logic.

Thanks for the update!

BitterSteel · August 2018

Mirage_Turtle wrote: »

BitterSteel wrote: »

Hammerbro_64 wrote: »

Cool @BitterSteel
I’m about to hit the hay so best of luck to your research. If you hadn’t realized yet in the Thor the dark world quest there’s a Heimdall to use low level 3* against.

@Hammerbro_64 @Mirage_Turtle

Been testing vulture and he was actually unable to evade Heimdall’s L2. Which got me quite confused why night crawler works and why vulture doesn’t. Interestingly enough, he was able to avoid it by using his “miss” mechanic which unfortunately is sometimes tricky to pin down. I have a video of it, but as I don’t think you can upload videos if you’re interested in seeing it, PM me and we can sort out sending it on the Line App.

Interesting...

Based on the wording, I would assume that Vulture would behave the same as Nightcrawler in this scenario at the cost of 10 Chitauri Energy. The only difference seems to be that Vulture's description explicitly says "Evade" while NC's doesn't.

Vulture: "Vulture Evades all attacks while Dodging back."
Nightcrawler: "While Dodging back, Nightcrawler cannot be struck by attacks."

I'm glad the Decoy mechanic works though, though logically I'm not sure it should. I've given up on trying to decipher Kabam logic.

Thanks for the update!

I’d assume that’s it, but it would be nice if @Kabam Miike would be able to just ask the team to clarify what exactly is going on with Nightcrawler and Vulture

Heimdall counter!!!

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