RNG

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Comments

  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 13,119
    That's also not how RNG works. It's not an if/then program. The result is generated instantaneously from the pool on the server. It doesn't stop to analyze and process your Roster, spending habits, activity, cholesterol, or eye color. You click, it accesses the Crystal pool, and it generates. That's it. Honestly, the roots grow deep with your suspicion.
  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 3,575
    DalBot wrote: »
    Demonzfyre wrote: »

    So the $380 I spent trying to get Thing today would mean i should have gotten him as a 5* right? The $1000's of dollars I spent over the course pf 4+ years means I should have every god tier champ in the game right? Well i can tell you that the statement you made is complete BS.

    that's not how if/thens work in probability but ok 🤷🏻‍♂️

    That is literally what you are claiming. If they are using that patent then by your reasoning, because I spend a ton, i should be getting the champs I want.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 5,668
    DalBot wrote: »
    Cute of you to list 1-4 but not 5-9 which rebut your premise entirely...

    5. A system of claim 2, wherein the first distribution probability is a function of the first spending metric.

    6. A system of claim 2, wherein the first spending metric is a summation of the purchase history of the first user.

    7. A system of claim 2, wherein the first spending metric is a summation of the purchase history of the first user over a period of time.

    8. A system of claim 2, wherein the first spending metric is a total number of purchases in the purchase history of the first user.

    9. A system of claim 2, wherein the first spending metric is a total number of purchases in the purchase history of the first user over a period of time.

    ...

    Claims 5 through 9 don't do that at all. They are, by virtue of the preface (A system of claim 2) all considered parts of the referenced claim 2, which was:
    2. A system of claim 1, wherein the first set of potential awards includes a first potential award associated with a first distribution probability that increases as the first spending metric indicates a decrease in spending level.

    Claims 3 and 4 define how "decrease in spending level" is determined based on the first spending metric. Claim 5 defines the "first distribution probability" as used in claim 2. Claims 6 through 9 describe options for how the first spending metric can be calculated. Claims 10 through 18 reiterate claims one through nine as implemented in a computer system.

    In other words, the patent describes a system invention that in simple terms presumes a computer game that contains random rewards that have a base set of odds for the rewards associated with some baseline spending level, and adjusts those odds upward for certain rewards when the player's spending drops below that baseline value, having first established that baseline value through some historical average of spending or transactions or other metric.
  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 1,723
    Putting personal beliefs aside, I doubt anyone has a way of proving or disproving any of this other than by reference to (1) what someone has said on these forums or (2) reference to personal anecdote or experience. Neither of those things proves dispositively that RNG isn’t what the game team says it is—but neither do they prove that it is what the game team says it is.

    There is literally no way to know absent accessing and understanding the very code that drives the game. That isn’t happening.

    These arguments usually end up at the same place no matter how they start. Some players trust the way this game divies out prizes, others do not. Not likely to change.

    Dr. Zola
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 5,668
    DrZola wrote: »
    Putting personal beliefs aside, I doubt anyone has a way of proving or disproving any of this other than by reference to (1) what someone has said on these forums or (2) reference to personal anecdote or experience. Neither of those things proves dispositively that RNG isn’t what the game team says it is—but neither do they prove that it is what the game team says it is.

    There is literally no way to know absent accessing and understanding the very code that drives the game. That isn’t happening.

    These arguments usually end up at the same place no matter how they start. Some players trust the way this game divies out prizes, others do not. Not likely to change.

    Dr. Zola

    I've seen the code in some games. Trust me, that doesn't settle anything either. Once someone believes a system is rigged, it is usually very easy for them to keep redefining the "system" to include ever larger subsets of the entire universe.

    But while there's no way to prove what the system does with absolute certainty, it is possible to prove that the evidence presented to demonstrate it is rigged is itself valueless. You can't prove your assertions of how the system work are right, but it is much easier to prove someone else's understanding of the system are definitely wrong, and therefore their ability to draw reasonable conclusions is nil.

    The simple fact is that if you believe the game is rigged, it becomes impossible to know in what way it is rigged because you can no longer trust your observations. No observation proves anything, because that observation could have been rigged to generate that result in that circumstance only. At that point you live in a magical world where observation no longer has value. Some people like living in such a world, because they can never be proven wrong. But they can also never actually be proven right either.
  • John757John757 Posts: 353
    The secret to appeasing the RNG gods is to sacrifice a moose below a maple tree. This will show the RNG gods you’re worthy
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 13,119
    John757 wrote: »
    The secret to appeasing the RNG gods is to sacrifice a moose below a maple tree. This will show the RNG gods you’re worthy

    Just make sure it's a Maple Tree. A friend sacrificed it to an Elm once. He now has a Sig 200 Kamala.
  • John757John757 Posts: 353
    John757 wrote: »
    The secret to appeasing the RNG gods is to sacrifice a moose below a maple tree. This will show the RNG gods you’re worthy

    Just make sure it's a Maple Tree. A friend sacrificed it to an Elm once. He now has a Sig 200 Kamala.

    Elms are evil, that makes a lot of sense. The sweet nectar of the maple tree gives life to the god champs we all desire
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 13,119
    John757 wrote: »
    John757 wrote: »
    The secret to appeasing the RNG gods is to sacrifice a moose below a maple tree. This will show the RNG gods you’re worthy

    Just make sure it's a Maple Tree. A friend sacrificed it to an Elm once. He now has a Sig 200 Kamala.

    Elms are evil, that makes a lot of sense. The sweet nectar of the maple tree gives life to the god champs we all desire

    That's why Kabam is located in Canada. ;)
  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 1,723
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    DrZola wrote: »
    Putting personal beliefs aside, I doubt anyone has a way of proving or disproving any of this other than by reference to (1) what someone has said on these forums or (2) reference to personal anecdote or experience. Neither of those things proves dispositively that RNG isn’t what the game team says it is—but neither do they prove that it is what the game team says it is.

    There is literally no way to know absent accessing and understanding the very code that drives the game. That isn’t happening.

    These arguments usually end up at the same place no matter how they start. Some players trust the way this game divies out prizes, others do not. Not likely to change.

    Dr. Zola

    I've seen the code in some games. Trust me, that doesn't settle anything either. Once someone believes a system is rigged, it is usually very easy for them to keep redefining the "system" to include ever larger subsets of the entire universe.

    But while there's no way to prove what the system does with absolute certainty, it is possible to prove that the evidence presented to demonstrate it is rigged is itself valueless. You can't prove your assertions of how the system work are right, but it is much easier to prove someone else's understanding of the system are definitely wrong, and therefore their ability to draw reasonable conclusions is nil.

    The simple fact is that if you believe the game is rigged, it becomes impossible to know in what way it is rigged because you can no longer trust your observations. No observation proves anything, because that observation could have been rigged to generate that result in that circumstance only. At that point you live in a magical world where observation no longer has value. Some people like living in such a world, because they can never be proven wrong. But they can also never actually be proven right either.

    Not trying to pick a fight, but this falls mostly under the personal anecdote heading from my post.

    Those of us who (albeit grudgingly) buy that a pRNG game treats all players equitably do so because someone who is paid by the entity that produces that pRNG game told us so. And because the alternative is pretty crooked, and we’d like to think we wouldn’t play a game like that. It’s just that simple.

    Dr. Zola
  • John757John757 Posts: 353
    John757 wrote: »
    John757 wrote: »
    The secret to appeasing the RNG gods is to sacrifice a moose below a maple tree. This will show the RNG gods you’re worthy

    Just make sure it's a Maple Tree. A friend sacrificed it to an Elm once. He now has a Sig 200 Kamala.

    Elms are evil, that makes a lot of sense. The sweet nectar of the maple tree gives life to the god champs we all desire

    That's why Kabam is located in Canada. ;)

    Canada is a figment of our imagination. Just like Finland
  • SomeJerkSomeJerk Posts: 1
    Whatever Kabam can do to screw you out of time, effort or money without giving you squat in return is pretty much a sure thing... even though it’s only pixels and a few lines of code to make the months it takes just to get a single 6* pull or the 2 weeks per 5* pull worth it.... they remain the stingiest group of virgins on the planet.
    Funny story though, my roommate is one of top 50 players... and just about every other pull he gets a godly champ. Duped 6* void on 3rd 6* pull. That second pull in between was a 6* killmonger. Mind you this is right when 6*’s got released. He got 5* Kang on 3rd ggc. 5th 6* Corvus. He wanted ghost and got her second try. Got blade right when released, then duped.
    I’m pretty sure Kabam has a favoring system for top players. Everyone else just gets screwed too often for it to just be so much luck for 1 guy.

    ....Love the game, but obtaining the champs makes me want to nerd rage until my phone is in pieces.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 5,668
    DrZola wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    DrZola wrote: »
    Putting personal beliefs aside, I doubt anyone has a way of proving or disproving any of this other than by reference to (1) what someone has said on these forums or (2) reference to personal anecdote or experience. Neither of those things proves dispositively that RNG isn’t what the game team says it is—but neither do they prove that it is what the game team says it is.

    There is literally no way to know absent accessing and understanding the very code that drives the game. That isn’t happening.

    These arguments usually end up at the same place no matter how they start. Some players trust the way this game divies out prizes, others do not. Not likely to change.

    Dr. Zola

    I've seen the code in some games. Trust me, that doesn't settle anything either. Once someone believes a system is rigged, it is usually very easy for them to keep redefining the "system" to include ever larger subsets of the entire universe.

    But while there's no way to prove what the system does with absolute certainty, it is possible to prove that the evidence presented to demonstrate it is rigged is itself valueless. You can't prove your assertions of how the system work are right, but it is much easier to prove someone else's understanding of the system are definitely wrong, and therefore their ability to draw reasonable conclusions is nil.

    The simple fact is that if you believe the game is rigged, it becomes impossible to know in what way it is rigged because you can no longer trust your observations. No observation proves anything, because that observation could have been rigged to generate that result in that circumstance only. At that point you live in a magical world where observation no longer has value. Some people like living in such a world, because they can never be proven wrong. But they can also never actually be proven right either.

    Not trying to pick a fight, but this falls mostly under the personal anecdote heading from my post.

    Those of us who (albeit grudgingly) buy that a pRNG game treats all players equitably do so because someone who is paid by the entity that produces that pRNG game told us so. And because the alternative is pretty crooked, and we’d like to think we wouldn’t play a game like that. It’s just that simple.

    Dr. Zola

    At the end of the day, that's the same reason I believe in general relativity. I wasn't there for any of the experiments that verified it, and I choose to believe there's no large conspiracy among experimental physicists and the makers of GPS. But I can't actually prove it myself.
  • Kushstar420Kushstar420 Posts: 192
    edited January 11
    you win some you lose some. for every trash pull is a good pull in the works.

    trust me ive pulled (all 5*'s) ant man, kk, spider gwen, evil cyclops, oml, sentry etc (at least 10 or more trash tier champs - inluding my 6* star as beast)
    >>> BUT for every trash ive got Ive pulled corvus, ghost, hype, gr, icey, medusa, aa etc

    so think of each pull as a 50/50 chance.

    good luck
  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 1,723
    you win some you lose some. for every trash pull is a good pull in the works.

    trust me ive pulled (all 5*'s) ant man, kk, spider gwen, evil cyclops, oml, sentry etc (at least 10 or more trash tier champs - inluding my 6* star as beast)
    >>> BUT for every trash ive got Ive pulled corvus, ghost, hype, gr, icey, medusa, aa etc

    so think of each pull as a 50/50 chance.

    good luck

    I admire your optimism! But if it were anywhere near 50-50, this conversation wouldn’t rise from the dead every month or so on the forums.

    Best of luck!

    Dr. Zola
  • Primmer79Primmer79 Posts: 2,549
    edited January 11
    DrZola wrote: »
    you win some you lose some. for every trash pull is a good pull in the works.

    trust me ive pulled (all 5*'s) ant man, kk, spider gwen, evil cyclops, oml, sentry etc (at least 10 or more trash tier champs - inluding my 6* star as beast)
    >>> BUT for every trash ive got Ive pulled corvus, ghost, hype, gr, icey, medusa, aa etc

    so think of each pull as a 50/50 chance.

    good luck

    I admire your optimism! But if it were anywhere near 50-50, this conversation wouldn’t rise from the dead every month or so on the forums.

    Best of luck!

    Dr. Zola

    My post will be back to personal anecdote, and I accept that, just continuing conversation.

    I know some people in my alliance that if the champion isn't a 1-2 option in their class, its trash. A lot of players tend to only see the end game of 'I need the top champs.' This correlates to 80+% of champions being "useless" or "trash." which, assuming every pull is even, leads to 80+% of pulls being "trash" and then when they get majority "trash" there's a conspiracy.

    I have seen people claim that they have an old account and only get old champs, then I see he has a blade and a void highly ranked. "Yeah but I don't have a corvus or sparky."

    Another large problem is people accepting this and not thinking it should be a priority to get more 5* crystals. If anyone is lacking in 5*, I would think it would be a push to get as many 5* crystals as possible. Yet, I have seen people sit and complain about not getting good pulls, and never do arena, only ever complete uncollected for EQ, and sit and gather alliance rewards.

    I feel I have gotten lucky with my 5* pulls. Blade, Sparky, GR, Dorm, Emma Frost, Quake, Cap IW, Medusa, Hyperion. But even with that, only Quake out of that group was duped naturally. The rest took grinding(and luck) for awakenings, and cap iw and sparky still arent duped. So while I could be lucky, any other luck with AG would leave me with a bunch of unduped champions, some useful, some not.

  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 1,723
    edited January 11
    Primmer79 wrote: »
    DrZola wrote: »
    you win some you lose some. for every trash pull is a good pull in the works.

    trust me ive pulled (all 5*'s) ant man, kk, spider gwen, evil cyclops, oml, sentry etc (at least 10 or more trash tier champs - inluding my 6* star as beast)
    >>> BUT for every trash ive got Ive pulled corvus, ghost, hype, gr, icey, medusa, aa etc

    so think of each pull as a 50/50 chance.

    good luck

    I admire your optimism! But if it were anywhere near 50-50, this conversation wouldn’t rise from the dead every month or so on the forums.

    Best of luck!

    Dr. Zola

    My post will be back to personal anecdote, and I accept that, just continuing conversation.

    I know some people in my alliance that if the champion isn't a 1-2 option in their class, its trash. A lot of players tend to only see the end game of 'I need the top champs.' This correlates to 80+% of champions being "useless" or "trash." which, assuming every pull is even, leads to 80+% of pulls being "trash" and then when they get majority "trash" there's a conspiracy.

    I have seen people claim that they have an old account and only get old champs, then I see he has a blade and a void highly ranked. "Yeah but I don't have a corvus or sparky."

    Another large problem is people accepting this and not thinking it should be a priority to get more 5* crystals. If anyone is lacking in 5*, I would think it would be a push to get as many 5* crystals as possible. Yet, I have seen people sit and complain about not getting good pulls, and never do arena, only ever complete uncollected for EQ, and sit and gather alliance rewards.

    I feel I have gotten lucky with my 5* pulls. Blade, Sparky, GR, Dorm, Emma Frost, Quake, Cap IW, Medusa, Hyperion. But even with that, only Quake out of that group was duped naturally. The rest took grinding(and luck) for awakenings, and cap iw and sparky still arent duped. So while I could be lucky, any other luck with AG would leave me with a bunch of unduped champions, some useful, some not.

    And I think you are absolutely correct on that point—that many veterans tend to have a small handful of champs they want and consider anything else as evidence of pRNG malfeasance.

    My belief is that a few things might alleviate some of the mistrust about pRNG: (1) elimination of the reel when spinning crystals or elimination of spinning altogether; (2) sharing of “audit” results for certain crystals (e.g., “for this run of featured 5*’s, there were x of this and y of that champ pulled out of a total of z pulls globally”); (3) increased opportunity to obtain certain classes of champs (either sorted by actual class or sorted by hashtag into champ type—example would be ability to acquire limited set of 4/5* power control champs in a crystal through game play, not purchase; basic 5* arenas with certain restrictions could also work).

    There are more suggestions, but these jump immediately to mind. For me, I think much of the mistrust is rooted in the lack of control inherent in pRNG. You burn precious time and sometimes money, but you have zero influence over the variable rewards you get for that, no matter how many chances you roll. Addressing that lack of control and the feeling of futility it often carries in a way that doesn’t fundamentally change the game would be a plus in my opinion.

    Dr. Zola
  • JRock808JRock808 Posts: 936
    Once you get to a certain point in the game the number of champs that will actually improve your roster and possible ability to complete content goes down. While a new player may find value in 25 of the 100 champs, a veteran may only find value in 5 of them. Going from a relative 25% chance to a 5% chance is a huge decrease in probability, and bigger increase in disappointment and frustration.

    I don't know the solution. They seem to think selling a daily class GMC would help... but that offer is completely unappealing. Featured crystals are usually just as bad, especially if only a couple of them have any value to you.

    Maybe more tiers of crystals, 15k for a standard featured, 25k for a super featured with a much higher rate of "desireable" champs compared to useless, average or bad ones. But the more control a player has over their future, the more Kabam loses...and control is paramount to their business model.
  • Primmer79Primmer79 Posts: 2,549
    JRock808 wrote: »
    Once you get to a certain point in the game the number of champs that will actually improve your roster and possible ability to complete content goes down. While a new player may find value in 25 of the 100 champs, a veteran may only find value in 5 of them. Going from a relative 25% chance to a 5% chance is a huge decrease in probability, and bigger increase in disappointment and frustration.

    I don't know the solution. They seem to think selling a daily class GMC would help... but that offer is completely unappealing. Featured crystals are usually just as bad, especially if only a couple of them have any value to you.

    Maybe more tiers of crystals, 15k for a standard featured, 25k for a super featured with a much higher rate of "desireable" champs compared to useless, average or bad ones. But the more control a player has over their future, the more Kabam loses...and control is paramount to their business model.

    I really think the viewpoint in this is flawed. I understand it, but respectfully disagree with people who have this viewpoint. There are very specific situations where 1-2 champs are needed (areas of LoL, and variant). But when you're at this point, a 5* crystal shouldnt be a disappointment as long as its a dupe.

    If its a new champ, I hate it because due to resources, I won't be ranking to r3 necessarily for arena.

    If its a dupe, I'm happy as it goes towards 6* shards.

    The way I look at it, while I am waiting for the exact counter of the next content, every dupe is preparing me for the next stage in the game in building my 6* roster.

    That being said, and in response to the doc above, I do believe situational 5* crystals could be fun. There will always be trash champs in every crystal. Wouldn't make sense for kabam to give us a god tier crystal, unless its behind a pay wall. But a power control crystal, or even a class crystal would be cool.
  • JRock808JRock808 Posts: 936
    When your 6* pulls are daredevil, cyclops, dpx and the like.. all that shard acquiring gets very old very fast. Well, as fast as you can open 6*, which for most people is every few months?

    6* champs are not immune to the same diminishing value effect and will only get worse as more are added.
  • Haji_SaabHaji_Saab Posts: 2,003
    edited January 11
    Gameloft said many times for a full year that every spiderman has an equal chance to drop from the portal in Spiderman Unlimited. Until someone from inside leaked the drop rates. And they were different for each spidey. They owned up to the drop rates later (good for them). This was in 2015.

    Since that day, I do not trust any RNG system which claims to place equal probability to trash and diamonds including Kabams. They can claim Ant man and AA have same drop out. I don't think so.
  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 1,723
    edited January 11
    JRock808 wrote: »
    Once you get to a certain point in the game the number of champs that will actually improve your roster and possible ability to complete content goes down. While a new player may find value in 25 of the 100 champs, a veteran may only find value in 5 of them. Going from a relative 25% chance to a 5% chance is a huge decrease in probability, and bigger increase in disappointment and frustration.

    I don't know the solution. They seem to think selling a daily class GMC would help... but that offer is completely unappealing. Featured crystals are usually just as bad, especially if only a couple of them have any value to you.

    Maybe more tiers of crystals, 15k for a standard featured, 25k for a super featured with a much higher rate of "desireable" champs compared to useless, average or bad ones. But the more control a player has over their future, the more Kabam loses...and control is paramount to their business model.

    I would have agreed with you about the number of desirable champs earlier this year, but I feel differently now.

    I hit a run of around 30 5* pulls this spring to winter that netted me little more than dupes of undesirable champs, dupes of champs already at a high sig level and champs I would only rank as a last resort. Admittedly, I did back off AW this year, which reduced my shards intake, but with arena and EQ and special events and a couple of offers, I’ve had a healthy number of 5* pulls since May.

    The result is that I own 2 champs released in the past 13 months: Sentry and Prox. And when I look at the list of champs I would consider useful in the 5* crystal, I wind up with close to 1/3 of them if not more (and I don’t consider myself an overly charitable assessor of champs).

    In my opinion, this is where pRNG really fails as the engine for this game. I enjoy the game; I play; I sometimes spend; I get disappointing results that don’t advance my account. Rinse and repeat.

    Even my best pulls of the past year are repeat dupes (Blade, Medusa, Psylocke). Maybe my determination to continue doing the same thing and expecting a different result is evidence of my diminished sanity. But that pRNG run coupled with game design that often pushes you toward a specific set of champs to complete content is definitely a driver of my diminished satisfaction.

    Dr. Zola
  • Star_Lord_Star_Lord_ Posts: 375
    This is a great thread! Both sides have had great arguments and have keep the discussion civil and interesting. For me its fun to read as my opinion ebbs/flows. At times it feels like there are factors outside of RNG pulling the strings, but other times it does feel completely random. I will never know for sure, but it is nice to see others with the same struggle as myself.
  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 1,723
    Primmer79 wrote: »
    JRock808 wrote: »
    Once you get to a certain point in the game the number of champs that will actually improve your roster and possible ability to complete content goes down. While a new player may find value in 25 of the 100 champs, a veteran may only find value in 5 of them. Going from a relative 25% chance to a 5% chance is a huge decrease in probability, and bigger increase in disappointment and frustration.

    I don't know the solution. They seem to think selling a daily class GMC would help... but that offer is completely unappealing. Featured crystals are usually just as bad, especially if only a couple of them have any value to you.

    Maybe more tiers of crystals, 15k for a standard featured, 25k for a super featured with a much higher rate of "desireable" champs compared to useless, average or bad ones. But the more control a player has over their future, the more Kabam loses...and control is paramount to their business model.

    I really think the viewpoint in this is flawed. I understand it, but respectfully disagree with people who have this viewpoint. There are very specific situations where 1-2 champs are needed (areas of LoL, and variant). But when you're at this point, a 5* crystal shouldnt be a disappointment as long as its a dupe.

    If its a new champ, I hate it because due to resources, I won't be ranking to r3 necessarily for arena.

    If its a dupe, I'm happy as it goes towards 6* shards.

    The way I look at it, while I am waiting for the exact counter of the next content, every dupe is preparing me for the next stage in the game in building my 6* roster.

    That being said, and in response to the doc above, I do believe situational 5* crystals could be fun. There will always be trash champs in every crystal. Wouldn't make sense for kabam to give us a god tier crystal, unless its behind a pay wall. But a power control crystal, or even a class crystal would be cool.

    I know you didn’t mean it to hurt, but your god-Tier paywall crystal example stung me in the way only Kabam pRNG can.

    Recall the $99 Recap crystal, replete with only 5* versions of 13 of the champs from early 2018 like IWIM, Cap IW, Domino, Masacre, Corvus, KM, ST, Proxima and a couple of others. I had been holding AGs for a while in anticipation of some of those champs and the only one out of those 13 I truly didn’t want was a Prox—she was one of 2 in the crystal I already had and didn’t benefit much from the dupe. 11/13 shot at a new and very good to top-tier champ. Even the potential 1/13 Sentry dupe, while disappointing, would have netted him something beneficial.

    I liked my odds and I bought it. And hello, 1-in-13 Proxima dupe. Me = sucker and just another pRNG nail in the coffin.

    Dr. Zola
  • SlayerOfGodsSlayerOfGods Posts: 881
    edited January 11
    John757 wrote: »
    The secret to appeasing the RNG gods is to sacrifice a moose below a maple tree. This will show the RNG gods you’re worthy

    As long as its not a Kabam Spruce tree, its fine!

    bd2ebuwszbor.jpg
  • Blax4everBlax4ever Posts: 671
    LOL you know someone is big mad when they start using font colors in their post. LOL
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