Nightcrawler Timer bugged AGAIN

Gari09Gari09 Member Posts: 12 ★
edited June 2019 in Bugs and Known Issues
Hi,

Kabam, please explain to me why is Nightcrawler's timer disappearing with no reason mid my combo? How do I switch his mode now, when you "fixed" previous trick, leaving us with nothing, but completely bugged timmer that disappears whenever it wants without a single logical reason for it. How many times will you be fixing this bug ,again and again? Here's the video to provide a clear evidence:
0:18
https://youtube.com/watch?v=vNfC1vem5Qc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNfC1vem5Qc


Comments

  • Gari09Gari09 Member Posts: 12 ★
    So, ignored again? Issue not important, video never happened?
  • te_dua_shumte_dua_shum Member Posts: 1,001 ★★★★
    it isn't really a bug, for me: if you watch the video slowed down, you can see that NC drop the block (his sword and arm change position, then it block again) for a few milliseconds, but they're enough to lose the switch timer :)

    i've taken screenshots, you can find them here (i don't know why, but i can directly post the pictures here, from Google Drive): the images order is 19.0 -> 19.2.

    I hope that it helps :)
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited July 2019
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  • Gari09Gari09 Member Posts: 12 ★
    SquishyjrThe_4TH said:

    1) sometimes post don’t get a response, it’s not a big deal. Usually it’s due to people already seeing the post and think it’s just a repeat of a previous post. Calm down that you didn’t get the attention you wanted. Bumping up a post is against the forum rules

    Thank you for your opinion and allow me to fully disagree. It is a big deal and one of the main reasons why this community is always angry and Kabam's support is said to be one of the worst. This is also one of the reasons why this game is currently in such a horrible quality condition. But thank you for your opinion.
    SquishyjrThe_4TH said:

    2) you can clearly see at 18 seconds that he drops his block at .5 speed

    Which seems to be the very issue here - AI being able to perform actions in between palyer's hits in combo. This, as I mentioned before, may also be the root cause of the "Hitting into block being countered by specials" issue. If a player hits constantly, without any breaks, into a blocking oponent, the opponent should not be able to perform counter-actions in between hits. The opponent should be "blocked" for as long as player's action lasts.
    SquishyjrThe_4TH said:

    3) this is not a bug because the interaction is well intended and can happen in a match. In fact you can do it too. Just spam block. Sometimes if the animations are just right you can parry an opponent mid combo

    Let me just simply disagree again - it is a bug.
    SquishyjrThe_4TH said:

    Best know case of being able to break your own block is domino. She herself doesn’t break blocks she can’t. It’s only that players try to dash back, and her animation for her medium 1 have enough timing for you to drop it and be too late for you to recover it

    ...which for some reason they claim to "fix" every now and then. I wonder why... :-) Maybe because there's something wrong about it?
    SquishyjrThe_4TH said:

    4) the info that @te_dua_shum provides was helpful, props to him for taking the pics and showing the interaction you don’t need to dismis his post just because it doesn’t appeal to your viewpoint

    Thank you for your opinion. Again. You seem to have a lot of moral advices. Let me just stop you right here before you get too cocky - I don't know you, you don't know me. Trying to act like you have some sort of moral highground will not work, as I have no idea who you are, therefore there's no way I can treat you as a source of morality.
    SquishyjrThe_4TH said:

    5) NC act similar to mordo in terms of block behavior. Sometimes he dashes back and spasms with his block. This can give him many opportunities to break his block mid combo. So it’s not a bug

    So, there's something fundamentally wrong about the design of his timer. Whether it's a bug or a bad design - matters not. The outcome is still the same.
    SquishyjrThe_4TH said:

    6) don’t always assume something is a bug and come off as condescending and confrontation like you think know you are right.

    As I said above - time to stop that "father's talks".
  • te_dua_shumte_dua_shum Member Posts: 1,001 ★★★★
    Gari09 said:

    te_dua_shum said:

    it isn't really a bug, for me: if you watch the video slowed down, you can see that NC drop the block (his sword and arm change position, then it block again) for a few milliseconds, but they're enough to lose the switch timer :)

    i've taken screenshots, you can find them here (i don't know why, but i can directly post the pictures here, from Google Drive): the images order is 19.0 -> 19.2.

    I hope that it helps :)

    How is this not a bug then, if AI can drop block for a milisecond during a player's combo? Is it "working as intended" again? I believe this may be the same reason why AI is able to trigger its specials while a player is hitting AI's block - because AI CAN actually "do" things inbetween single hits. Why? Because, of course, once again (I don't care if Kabam Miike denies it, he was proven to be wrong many times before and will be, most probably, many more times in the future), AI reaction times were tweaked again.

    During this and the following fight I was not able to change his mode AT ALL due to this amazing ability to drop block for a milisecond without evading, so basically the timer was disappearing all the time.

    What you provided is not helpful, is not an explanation, an definitely it's not a solution - it's merely a very bad excuse.


    First, let me tell you that you should be graceful that english isn't my primary language, so i can't really reply as i would.

    You think that it's a mere excuse? that's your problem, and won't change the fact that this isn't a bug. you can drop your block mid combo, and parry your opponent on the 3rd or 4th hit, if you want; and you can also drop your block while the "Switch Timer" is active. This isn't only for NC, but every other champion (like Cap Marvel MCU or Cull) that needs to dash back and hold the block for a tot. seconds: if you drop the block, the timer disappear, and you have to dash back again, if you want to get it again.

    is it annoying? Yes.
    is NC working as intended? Yes.
    is the possibility to drop the block working as intended? I don't know.

    The point is, there isn't any bug with NC, he isn't losing his timer without a reason, so it isn't a NC bug.

    you don't trust my words? below i'll leave a video that i've just done, using NC to show how can i drop and hold the block again, even during a combo (this can clearly be seen at minute 00:18/00:20).


    https://youtu.be/LvZV5wllyUQ



  • Gari09Gari09 Member Posts: 12 ★
    te_dua_shum said:


    you don't trust my words? below i'll leave a video that i've just done, using NC to show how can i drop and hold the block again, even during a combo (this can clearly be seen at minute 00:18/00:20).
    https://youtu.be/LvZV5wllyUQ

    You can't be serious with this video against 1 star and very passive AI. Obviously you are able to perform actions between its hits as the AI is extremely passive and very slow - making realtively long breaks between hits. This way there's a lot of time for your reaction and counter-actions. In my video, I was very aggressive hitting AI's block, making no "breaks" between my hits, therefore there shouldn't be time for AI to produce any sort of counter-actions.

    But I understand your point, no worries here. However my point is, that if we allow AI to perform actions inbetween hits of constant combo, then we end up with a bug mentioned above, where AI triggers specials mid player's combos (because it is actually allowed for AI to trigger actions inbetween players' hits). And we also risk a situation in which AI will be able to even parry players mid their combo, which I believe (I may be wrong though) already happened in the past creating a lot of noise and was quickly fixed as it was naturally ridiculous.

    My point is also that Kabam should be really careful when making tweaks to AI's response times as it can clearly modify the very nature of interactions and mechanics of this game causing a lot of unintended and unpredictable effects.

    Thank you for your input anyway. We just simply disagree at some level, but that's a natural thing.
  • Gari09Gari09 Member Posts: 12 ★
    I forgot to mention that before all the AI tweaks, Nightcrawler's timer dissapeared only when he evaded while being hit in block. Let me repeat - "evaded". After AI tweaks, making it faster and giving AI more opportunities for counter-actions, it got completely messed up causing the very situation showed in my video - the timer disappearing without Nightcrawler evading. All it takes now is a "micro" counter-reaction, in this case dropping block for a milisecond, almost not visible to a human eye. That's where I'm coming from.

    Thanks your attention.
  • te_dua_shumte_dua_shum Member Posts: 1,001 ★★★★
    if you can tell me where i can find an opponent that does 5-hit combos quickly, i'll reproduce the video, just to show that this is true even at higher level.

    to give you an idea, i used the "parry on 4th hit" (dropping and holding again the block) to help me clear 5.2.4 with masochism, so i think that this can be extended to opponents with more fighting skills :)

    there's nothing to agree or disagree, you can't disagree on a fact, and this is a fact. This is not a NC bug, but a consequence of the "enemies can launch SP's while blocking" thing, that sadly it has been described as "working as intended", so this interaction with NC (and all other champions with a switch timer) is working as intented too.
  • Gari09Gari09 Member Posts: 12 ★
    te_dua_shum said:

    there's nothing to agree or disagree, you can't disagree on a fact, and this is a fact. This is not a NC bug, but a consequence of the "enemies can launch SP's while blocking" thing, that sadly it has been described as "working as intended", so this interaction with NC (and all other champions with a switch timer) is working as intented too.

    I definitely don't want to decide what is the source of the issue and which mechanic is actually bugged - I'm just pointing out an issue itself. So you're right - calling something bugged or not may not be entirely correct, as the timer itself may work as intended but the actual outcome may not be exactly as intended due to bugs in other areas of the game.
    te_dua_shum said:

    it has been described as "working as intended"

    Could you please show me the place where it was said? I'm being sincire - I'd like to see that as it sounds completely ridiculous.
  • te_dua_shumte_dua_shum Member Posts: 1,001 ★★★★
    @Gari09 here the comments, both coming directly from the "HITTING INTO BLOCK BEING COUNTERED BY SPECIALS" Thread, in this section

    - Mod reply n.1
    - Mod reply n.2 (second message in the page)
  • Gari09Gari09 Member Posts: 12 ★
    te_dua_shum said:

    @Gari09 here the comments, both coming directly from the "HITTING INTO BLOCK BEING COUNTERED BY SPECIALS" Thread, in this section

    - Mod reply n.1
    - Mod reply n.2 (second message in the page)

    Thank you. But yes, the explananation provided by Kabam is exactly what I said above when you posted your video - if you hit slowly into a block, or make a tiny breaks between hits - it becomes possible to take advantage of it. The problem with the bug is however, that no matter how quickly you hit into a blocking opponent, AI is still able to trigger some actions in between because nowadays AI is extremely fast after Kabam's tweaks. So fast, that players can't even do a proper on-block combo because AI cuts in between their hits. This is not right and we all know this. The completely other thing is whether Kabam will acknowlege the issue and fix it as they should. If not, it's only a matter of time when parrying players mid their combos (not only on blocks) will become acceptable for Kabam and they'll annouce it "working as intened". Just give them time and you'll see.
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  • Gari09Gari09 Member Posts: 12 ★
    UmbertoDelRio said:

    Not having noticeable pauses between attacks is still far from having frame-perfect inputs. And even then there are still frames inbetween the attack animations

    I fully agree. The point is that these micropauses used not to be a factor. After tweaking AI, the speed that AI gained allows it now to use these micropauses for counter-actions. We may have a discussion whether this counter-actions were predicted and intented by Kabam, but none of us can tell for sure because we "weren't there". Taking into cosideration the complexity of this game, I'd rather say "They had no idea, it's a side effect they didn't intend". A now, as a result, we are where we are :)
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  • Gari09Gari09 Member Posts: 12 ★
    UmbertoDelRio said:

    It has nothing to do with tweaking the ai, though. This is framerate related.

    I am sorry, but this time I cannot agree with you as what you said here is just silly. You are mixing oranges with apples. Framerate has nothing to do with the AI's coded-in behaviours and reaction times. A good example here would be the very recent issue with Sentinel and his L1, when out of nowhere players were not able to punish his L1 anymore. The reaction time was clearly shortened, Kabam Miike denied, then Kabam released a fix clearly saying that the they changed it back to the original value. Let me quote: "Lengthened Special 1 Attack recovery to match previous speed" and "Sentinel was able to react faster than intended after completing his Sp1 attack". I will not discuss the word "intended" here, as this is clearly personal - I have no trust for this company whatsoever anymore and believing them that some changes were "unintended" does not come easily anymore.
    UmbertoDelRio said:

    If this was a byproduct of "tweaking the ai" it wouldn't make much sense for us players being able to do the exact same thing, would it?

    No, it would not. AI and players mechanics are totally different things. AI is AI, players are players. We have, for instance, two (at least) versions of Rhino in the game - think about the one in ROL - this one does not become unblockable or unstoppable while dashing forward. Still Rhino, right? Yet completely different from what we have in our roasters.
    UmbertoDelRio said:

    And whether it was fully intended or not is hard to tell. It's hard to imagine that the developers didn't anticipate this, though. They should be the first to know which parts of the game directly interact with the framerate. The overall complexity of the game is irrelevant.

    Well, to say something like that you must be a person that missed all the bugs that we are presented every and each update. If what you said was true and changes made by Kabam were well understood, we would not have had situations when new versions of the game would cause issues with the old content and champions (i.e. recent issues with robots bleeding; and many many other examples over the years). They clearly cannot anticipate anymore and the complexity of the game is vital here.
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  • Gari09Gari09 Member Posts: 12 ★
    UmbertoDelRio said:

    1. Sentinels sp1 was still punishable, it was just a lot harder. This was an issue of his animations, though, not framerate and definitely not ai behavior. His ai didn't choose to be harder to punish, his resting animation after his sp1 got shortened and then fixed. Has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

    Let me ask you your question: are you trolling? When I'm talking about making AI faster and shortening AI's reaction times, then your counterargument is that it's not making AI faster (reaction times) but it's all about framerate. When I give you an example, you then say that it has nothing to do with framerate but "his resting animation after his sp1 got shortened". Which IS EXACTLY what I'm saying in this thread. MAKING IT SHORTER. It's like you disagree with me, then you disagree with yourself and then you want to disagree with me while saying almost exactly the same things as I do. You need to make up your mind because it's getting ridiculous. I think that we simply disagree when it comes to identifying the source of those "changes". You seem to use "got shortened" as an implication that it got shortened by itself. I, on the other hand, just say that these "shortenings" are intentionally done by Kabam and the reason for thousands of people is obvious - faster AI = harder game = more revenue. If they were able to make the resting time longer so quickly without changing the very mechanics of the game, it would suggest that there is a "value" for that. Whether it's true or not, you're guess is as good as mine - neither you or I have access to the source code of the game.
    UmbertoDelRio said:

    2. Just as your rhino example has nothing to do with this. Champion abilities =/= framerate =/= ai behavior.

    I see no point discussing your framerate hypothesis because it seems to be something that you presented here and would like me to take for granted or treat as axiom. I'm sorry, but I'm not doing this. You stick with your "framerate" - in my opinion - nonsense, and I'll stick to my "game-source AI code values changing" hypothesis.
    UmbertoDelRio said:

    3. That's just pointless ranting. A bug isn't the same as any other bug. I know sh*t about programming and even I have the mental capabilities to comprehend that.

    Yes, you seem exactly to be that person - knowing **** about programming but freely arguing about the potential sources of issues in something that has been programmed. And the funnier thing is that you are using the framerate argument, which seems to be even funnier when you think about the very definition of framerate: "Frame rate (expressed in frames per second or fps) is the frequency (rate) at which consecutive images called frames appear on a display". It's like you're saying that having 30 or 120FPS in a game has an impact on the actual in-game AI's behaviour calculated by the game itself, which is pure nonsense. Just like you said - you know sh*t about this.
    UmbertoDelRio said:

    So let's recap:

    Both we and the ai are able to make inputs inbetween actions. The only thing restricting us and the ai are the available frames between those actions.

    The issue is framerate related. And if you're somewhat skillful and adaptable it isn't an issue at all. Quite the opposite really.

    That's all you'll get from me, though. If I wanted to feel like turning in circles, I'd rather get drunk.

    Framerate framerate framerate. Let me recap - you know nothing about this stuff, as you said yourself, yet you are so confident on saying what is or is not the actual issue and what is and what is not the source of it. Beyond funny. I admire your confident and, no offence, ignorance.

    To be honest - I blame Miike for this. I think he was the first one to star tusing this "framerate" excuse on the forums (if it was someone else, I apologize, Miike). I know he isn't technical and I know that this is something most probably he got from the dev teams (cheers to them, playful guys, most probably thought "Let's just give him this "framerate" story - it'll be easier than explaining how all of this actually work under the hood"). And now we have to deal with guys who "know nothing about this" but like to repeat after big guys from Kabam.

    Made my day :)
  • hungryhungrybbqhungryhungrybbq Member Posts: 2,219 ★★★★★
    edited July 2019
    Traditionally in this game, a character while blocking against a steady stream of light attacks should only be able to be able to perform two actions..an auto evade or being hit by a light attack. 😁 I suppose the question is whether the stream of lights is without any pause. If either a player or an AI can perform an action in between light attacks, I would suggest that something is off. If, in fact, it is a steady stream without pause.
  • RedTide75RedTide75 Member Posts: 29 ★
    Kabam doesn’t care. We had major adjustment to normal gameplay... caused from the update 2 months ago. Kabam is king of saying nothing changed. But repeatedly they have come back to the table and made adjustments. Concerning NC, I hate when people imply that it’s your skills that are lacking. There was an obvious change to NC switching mechanics. Yes there are ways around it... but why should we accept the change if it is causing so much frustration in the mcoc community.

    Concerning the gaps in combo... I intentionally spread my hits apart to increase crit rate... this was never an issue until this bug where AI could interrupt a combo with block, parry, or counter attack. 4 hit combos were guaranteed, but now I’ve been parried after one hit.

    If kabam wants to make these types of changes, they should announce it. Otherwise IMO it’s a bug.
  • MSRDLDMSRDLD Member Posts: 913 ★★★
    Nightcrawler’s timer is still bugged even years later. Still disappearing when it shouldn’t and making it impossible to switch him.
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