Upcoming Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw Balance Changes

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Comments

  • DshuDshu Posts: 1,432 ★★★★

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    CFree said:

    dot_ditto said:


    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.

    See this is the big fallacy at your end ..
    massive assumption that "the data must be accurate" .. even though you haven't seen it.

    I believe it's a very fair (and simple/straight forward) request to see the data ..

    The only thing we really need is something like:
    (and yes, I'm making these up to illustrate exactly what it is I (personally) am referring to when I ask to see "the data" ):

    Cull 5* R4. Level 55. Sig 100 (5 charges)
    Masteries (for baseline, I guess, whatever)
    vs
    Maestro (act 4, final boss .. whatever his stats are).
    (are they conditional nodes? I forget .. if so, specify which ones are active).

    Light attack: 123 damage (456 crit) (I know, #'s are fake .. I'm demonstrating a template here, not actual data).
    Medium attack: 345 damage (789 crit).

    With 5 stacks of Armor break:
    Light attack: 456 damage (1023 crit)
    Medium attack: 789 damage (1400 crit).

    ... something like that ... in that format ... is what would be useful for us all to see "WOW, that's broken!!".
    or "oh, that's not too bad, here, let me show #'s for xxx champ in similar situation" ..

    or .. whatever ..

    as usual ... (both sides) are speculating grandly with no real facts/evidence to support their "theories" ..

    so let's start with you .. if you are so sure: "so all evidence points to the data being accurate" please, setup an example above, and demonstrate the numbers?

    Please. I'm asking politely, respectly ... in an attempt to understand the numbers.

    thank you.

    and before somebody comes on and challenges me to provide data .. It's not my responsibility to show data for somebody ELSE making a claim.

    Kabam made a claim .. please provide data to support. Thank you.
    GW (and others) have backed up and supported above claim, acclaiming to it's accuracy. Please provide data to support. Thank you.

    I will provide data once I have a baseline to compare to .. once I see the data we're talking about Cull .. then (and only then) can we (the ones in disagreement) go setup a similar test case to demonstrate the opposite.

    simple enough, even a "logician" could figure that one out ;)


    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent.

    Not entirely .. not without presenting the data as I described above, no, they are not being completely transparent.
    Yes, they gave fair heads up that he will change .. Thank you .. that's a great start .. however, it's mostly meaningless without the data to support it.


    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.

    false assumption, as there is yet any evidence to support the "theory" .. (I'm calling it a theory from now on, until actual "proof" shows up to support it .. that seems fair :) )

    You're calling Kabam out on their own data. Good luck with that. Lol.
    He’s also calling you out on your fallacious argument.
    My fallacious argument? No. I'm going on the information provided. As far as this Forum is concerned, their comments are about as close to fact as we can get. We won't be seeing their internal metrics anytime soon. They may or may not post a list of what aspects they looked at and how he scored, but I doubt it. Even that wouldn't suffice for people. They'd just argue they weren't looking at the right things. Anything I've said thus far has been logical and educated based on the facts provided here. By all means, you're free to claim hanging chads.
    There has been no information provided other than the statement that their data shows he is out damaging other to champs. They made a statement about data not provided. Your argument is you believe their data but unless you have personally seen it 🤔 you are only going off the statement given. They have given exactly 2 peices of information.
    1 they believe his damage is too high
    2 they will be reducing his damage
    Unless you have some inside sources feeding you information from the game team what you are arguing is that you agree with their decision since only kabam employees have had access to the data and the sources it was gathered from. I kinda think it would be easier to argue this is a correct move if more information on the data was shared. It would also be nice to get some information from a kabam representative on this thread
    When do they ever provide their data in cases like these? I wasn't aware it was a group decision.
    You said you are going off the information provided. Just curious because it seems like you are going off blind faith. You don't even have a rebuttal to the lack of information just a statement asking when they ever release that. Well that would be what a quarter or more of these posts are asking them to do so they can understand what this data is showing since all but a select few can't seem to understand what makes him so game breaking and haven't been given any responses to this question
    I don't remember them saying game breaking. They said he was doing more than any other higher-end Champ.
    You might consider it blind faith. I don't. The difference between our opinions and theirs is, their opinions are the ones shaping the game, weighted by working on it and having access to the information and knowledge of their own goals. If you want to call trusting that blind faith, have at it. You either believe them, or you don't. I do.
    What you are missing there is while their opinion may shape the game the player base's opinion is what keeps them in business. Alienate your customers and your business doesn't last long. I'm not making threats just stating a simple fact about business. Also one would have to be either very young or very naive to believe all decisions are made for the betterment of the game. They are a for profit business so if they feel a decision would make them money they will do it. I don't fault them for it it's just business. You can blindly follow along believing the company has only your best interests at heart if you choose but I assure you that you are just another credit card number to them.
    On a side note. I did see a vid by a Youtubers who I'm sure was speaking out of frustration but remember. The mods are just doing a job and giving the response they have been told. While some responses and posts from mods are seen has stupid or illogical they are just the bottom of the corporate pyramid. It would be nice to hear from someone in the development or research department on the forum to give real insight into these changes
    If you're saying "We pay the bills.", that's not really an argument for changes that are necessary for balance. Yes, it's important to care about your customers. Yes, people spend. Yes, people matter. If you're saying people have the final say in decisions that affect the game overall based on that fact, and that it takes precedence over the actual data, I'm inclined to disagree.
    TL:DR - We don't control the game.
    In reality the customer base does have the final say. If the company alienates the customer base they have no revenue coming in and the game **** down. Again not calling for a boycott and not saying I'm against game balance. I'm simply replying to your statement and stating that they may want to open a two way conversation with their players since this thread hasn't had s response from a mod or anyone else from kabam since page 3 I think
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,852 ★★★★★
    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    CFree said:

    dot_ditto said:


    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.

    See this is the big fallacy at your end ..
    massive assumption that "the data must be accurate" .. even though you haven't seen it.

    I believe it's a very fair (and simple/straight forward) request to see the data ..

    The only thing we really need is something like:
    (and yes, I'm making these up to illustrate exactly what it is I (personally) am referring to when I ask to see "the data" ):

    Cull 5* R4. Level 55. Sig 100 (5 charges)
    Masteries (for baseline, I guess, whatever)
    vs
    Maestro (act 4, final boss .. whatever his stats are).
    (are they conditional nodes? I forget .. if so, specify which ones are active).

    Light attack: 123 damage (456 crit) (I know, #'s are fake .. I'm demonstrating a template here, not actual data).
    Medium attack: 345 damage (789 crit).

    With 5 stacks of Armor break:
    Light attack: 456 damage (1023 crit)
    Medium attack: 789 damage (1400 crit).

    ... something like that ... in that format ... is what would be useful for us all to see "WOW, that's broken!!".
    or "oh, that's not too bad, here, let me show #'s for xxx champ in similar situation" ..

    or .. whatever ..

    as usual ... (both sides) are speculating grandly with no real facts/evidence to support their "theories" ..

    so let's start with you .. if you are so sure: "so all evidence points to the data being accurate" please, setup an example above, and demonstrate the numbers?

    Please. I'm asking politely, respectly ... in an attempt to understand the numbers.

    thank you.

    and before somebody comes on and challenges me to provide data .. It's not my responsibility to show data for somebody ELSE making a claim.

    Kabam made a claim .. please provide data to support. Thank you.
    GW (and others) have backed up and supported above claim, acclaiming to it's accuracy. Please provide data to support. Thank you.

    I will provide data once I have a baseline to compare to .. once I see the data we're talking about Cull .. then (and only then) can we (the ones in disagreement) go setup a similar test case to demonstrate the opposite.

    simple enough, even a "logician" could figure that one out ;)


    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent.

    Not entirely .. not without presenting the data as I described above, no, they are not being completely transparent.
    Yes, they gave fair heads up that he will change .. Thank you .. that's a great start .. however, it's mostly meaningless without the data to support it.


    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.

    false assumption, as there is yet any evidence to support the "theory" .. (I'm calling it a theory from now on, until actual "proof" shows up to support it .. that seems fair :) )

    You're calling Kabam out on their own data. Good luck with that. Lol.
    He’s also calling you out on your fallacious argument.
    My fallacious argument? No. I'm going on the information provided. As far as this Forum is concerned, their comments are about as close to fact as we can get. We won't be seeing their internal metrics anytime soon. They may or may not post a list of what aspects they looked at and how he scored, but I doubt it. Even that wouldn't suffice for people. They'd just argue they weren't looking at the right things. Anything I've said thus far has been logical and educated based on the facts provided here. By all means, you're free to claim hanging chads.
    There has been no information provided other than the statement that their data shows he is out damaging other to champs. They made a statement about data not provided. Your argument is you believe their data but unless you have personally seen it 🤔 you are only going off the statement given. They have given exactly 2 peices of information.
    1 they believe his damage is too high
    2 they will be reducing his damage
    Unless you have some inside sources feeding you information from the game team what you are arguing is that you agree with their decision since only kabam employees have had access to the data and the sources it was gathered from. I kinda think it would be easier to argue this is a correct move if more information on the data was shared. It would also be nice to get some information from a kabam representative on this thread
    When do they ever provide their data in cases like these? I wasn't aware it was a group decision.
    You said you are going off the information provided. Just curious because it seems like you are going off blind faith. You don't even have a rebuttal to the lack of information just a statement asking when they ever release that. Well that would be what a quarter or more of these posts are asking them to do so they can understand what this data is showing since all but a select few can't seem to understand what makes him so game breaking and haven't been given any responses to this question
    I don't remember them saying game breaking. They said he was doing more than any other higher-end Champ.
    You might consider it blind faith. I don't. The difference between our opinions and theirs is, their opinions are the ones shaping the game, weighted by working on it and having access to the information and knowledge of their own goals. If you want to call trusting that blind faith, have at it. You either believe them, or you don't. I do.
    What you are missing there is while their opinion may shape the game the player base's opinion is what keeps them in business. Alienate your customers and your business doesn't last long. I'm not making threats just stating a simple fact about business. Also one would have to be either very young or very naive to believe all decisions are made for the betterment of the game. They are a for profit business so if they feel a decision would make them money they will do it. I don't fault them for it it's just business. You can blindly follow along believing the company has only your best interests at heart if you choose but I assure you that you are just another credit card number to them.
    On a side note. I did see a vid by a Youtubers who I'm sure was speaking out of frustration but remember. The mods are just doing a job and giving the response they have been told. While some responses and posts from mods are seen has stupid or illogical they are just the bottom of the corporate pyramid. It would be nice to hear from someone in the development or research department on the forum to give real insight into these changes
    If you're saying "We pay the bills.", that's not really an argument for changes that are necessary for balance. Yes, it's important to care about your customers. Yes, people spend. Yes, people matter. If you're saying people have the final say in decisions that affect the game overall based on that fact, and that it takes precedence over the actual data, I'm inclined to disagree.
    TL:DR - We don't control the game.
    In reality the customer base does have the final say. If the company alienates the customer base they have no revenue coming in and the game **** down. Again not calling for a boycott and not saying I'm against game balance. I'm simply replying to your statement and stating that they may want to open a two way conversation with their players since this thread hasn't had s response from a mod or anyone else from kabam since page 3 I think
    Sorry, I disagree. The Players don't have the final say concerning in-house decisions for the betterment of the game. I don't have any objections to people asking for clarification or dialogue. I'm just saying transparency doesn't mean running every decision they make by us for approval.
  • Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    CFree said:

    dot_ditto said:


    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.

    See this is the big fallacy at your end ..
    massive assumption that "the data must be accurate" .. even though you haven't seen it.

    I believe it's a very fair (and simple/straight forward) request to see the data ..

    The only thing we really need is something like:
    (and yes, I'm making these up to illustrate exactly what it is I (personally) am referring to when I ask to see "the data" ):

    Cull 5* R4. Level 55. Sig 100 (5 charges)
    Masteries (for baseline, I guess, whatever)
    vs
    Maestro (act 4, final boss .. whatever his stats are).
    (are they conditional nodes? I forget .. if so, specify which ones are active).

    Light attack: 123 damage (456 crit) (I know, #'s are fake .. I'm demonstrating a template here, not actual data).
    Medium attack: 345 damage (789 crit).

    With 5 stacks of Armor break:
    Light attack: 456 damage (1023 crit)
    Medium attack: 789 damage (1400 crit).

    ... something like that ... in that format ... is what would be useful for us all to see "WOW, that's broken!!".
    or "oh, that's not too bad, here, let me show #'s for xxx champ in similar situation" ..

    or .. whatever ..

    as usual ... (both sides) are speculating grandly with no real facts/evidence to support their "theories" ..

    so let's start with you .. if you are so sure: "so all evidence points to the data being accurate" please, setup an example above, and demonstrate the numbers?

    Please. I'm asking politely, respectly ... in an attempt to understand the numbers.

    thank you.

    and before somebody comes on and challenges me to provide data .. It's not my responsibility to show data for somebody ELSE making a claim.

    Kabam made a claim .. please provide data to support. Thank you.
    GW (and others) have backed up and supported above claim, acclaiming to it's accuracy. Please provide data to support. Thank you.

    I will provide data once I have a baseline to compare to .. once I see the data we're talking about Cull .. then (and only then) can we (the ones in disagreement) go setup a similar test case to demonstrate the opposite.

    simple enough, even a "logician" could figure that one out ;)


    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent.

    Not entirely .. not without presenting the data as I described above, no, they are not being completely transparent.
    Yes, they gave fair heads up that he will change .. Thank you .. that's a great start .. however, it's mostly meaningless without the data to support it.


    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.

    false assumption, as there is yet any evidence to support the "theory" .. (I'm calling it a theory from now on, until actual "proof" shows up to support it .. that seems fair :) )

    You're calling Kabam out on their own data. Good luck with that. Lol.
    He’s also calling you out on your fallacious argument.
    My fallacious argument? No. I'm going on the information provided. As far as this Forum is concerned, their comments are about as close to fact as we can get. We won't be seeing their internal metrics anytime soon. They may or may not post a list of what aspects they looked at and how he scored, but I doubt it. Even that wouldn't suffice for people. They'd just argue they weren't looking at the right things. Anything I've said thus far has been logical and educated based on the facts provided here. By all means, you're free to claim hanging chads.
    There has been no information provided other than the statement that their data shows he is out damaging other to champs. They made a statement about data not provided. Your argument is you believe their data but unless you have personally seen it 🤔 you are only going off the statement given. They have given exactly 2 peices of information.
    1 they believe his damage is too high
    2 they will be reducing his damage
    Unless you have some inside sources feeding you information from the game team what you are arguing is that you agree with their decision since only kabam employees have had access to the data and the sources it was gathered from. I kinda think it would be easier to argue this is a correct move if more information on the data was shared. It would also be nice to get some information from a kabam representative on this thread
    When do they ever provide their data in cases like these? I wasn't aware it was a group decision.
    You said you are going off the information provided. Just curious because it seems like you are going off blind faith. You don't even have a rebuttal to the lack of information just a statement asking when they ever release that. Well that would be what a quarter or more of these posts are asking them to do so they can understand what this data is showing since all but a select few can't seem to understand what makes him so game breaking and haven't been given any responses to this question
    I don't remember them saying game breaking. They said he was doing more than any other higher-end Champ.
    You might consider it blind faith. I don't. The difference between our opinions and theirs is, their opinions are the ones shaping the game, weighted by working on it and having access to the information and knowledge of their own goals. If you want to call trusting that blind faith, have at it. You either believe them, or you don't. I do.
    What you are missing there is while their opinion may shape the game the player base's opinion is what keeps them in business. Alienate your customers and your business doesn't last long. I'm not making threats just stating a simple fact about business. Also one would have to be either very young or very naive to believe all decisions are made for the betterment of the game. They are a for profit business so if they feel a decision would make them money they will do it. I don't fault them for it it's just business. You can blindly follow along believing the company has only your best interests at heart if you choose but I assure you that you are just another credit card number to them.
    On a side note. I did see a vid by a Youtubers who I'm sure was speaking out of frustration but remember. The mods are just doing a job and giving the response they have been told. While some responses and posts from mods are seen has stupid or illogical they are just the bottom of the corporate pyramid. It would be nice to hear from someone in the development or research department on the forum to give real insight into these changes
    If you're saying "We pay the bills.", that's not really an argument for changes that are necessary for balance. Yes, it's important to care about your customers. Yes, people spend. Yes, people matter. If you're saying people have the final say in decisions that affect the game overall based on that fact, and that it takes precedence over the actual data, I'm inclined to disagree.
    TL:DR - We don't control the game.
    In reality the customer base does have the final say. If the company alienates the customer base they have no revenue coming in and the game **** down. Again not calling for a boycott and not saying I'm against game balance. I'm simply replying to your statement and stating that they may want to open a two way conversation with their players since this thread hasn't had s response from a mod or anyone else from kabam since page 3 I think
    Sorry, I disagree. The Players don't have the final say concerning in-house decisions for the betterment of the game. I don't have any objections to people asking for clarification or dialogue. I'm just saying transparency doesn't mean running every decision they make by us for approval.
    Yea they shouldn’t run every decision by us but we should at least know what we’re paying for. People spent a lot of money for disappointment. He’s not even the best champion in the game. Yea he’s good but he’s not so good that he needs to be nerfed. There’s no trust in the champions they put out anymore. There’s always a fear of disappointment. At this point it’s bigger than just this one champion. They’ve screwed people over on their money before and they’re doing it again. Everyone’s sick of it and now they’re finally pushing back.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,852 ★★★★★

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    CFree said:

    dot_ditto said:


    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.

    See this is the big fallacy at your end ..
    massive assumption that "the data must be accurate" .. even though you haven't seen it.

    I believe it's a very fair (and simple/straight forward) request to see the data ..

    The only thing we really need is something like:
    (and yes, I'm making these up to illustrate exactly what it is I (personally) am referring to when I ask to see "the data" ):

    Cull 5* R4. Level 55. Sig 100 (5 charges)
    Masteries (for baseline, I guess, whatever)
    vs
    Maestro (act 4, final boss .. whatever his stats are).
    (are they conditional nodes? I forget .. if so, specify which ones are active).

    Light attack: 123 damage (456 crit) (I know, #'s are fake .. I'm demonstrating a template here, not actual data).
    Medium attack: 345 damage (789 crit).

    With 5 stacks of Armor break:
    Light attack: 456 damage (1023 crit)
    Medium attack: 789 damage (1400 crit).

    ... something like that ... in that format ... is what would be useful for us all to see "WOW, that's broken!!".
    or "oh, that's not too bad, here, let me show #'s for xxx champ in similar situation" ..

    or .. whatever ..

    as usual ... (both sides) are speculating grandly with no real facts/evidence to support their "theories" ..

    so let's start with you .. if you are so sure: "so all evidence points to the data being accurate" please, setup an example above, and demonstrate the numbers?

    Please. I'm asking politely, respectly ... in an attempt to understand the numbers.

    thank you.

    and before somebody comes on and challenges me to provide data .. It's not my responsibility to show data for somebody ELSE making a claim.

    Kabam made a claim .. please provide data to support. Thank you.
    GW (and others) have backed up and supported above claim, acclaiming to it's accuracy. Please provide data to support. Thank you.

    I will provide data once I have a baseline to compare to .. once I see the data we're talking about Cull .. then (and only then) can we (the ones in disagreement) go setup a similar test case to demonstrate the opposite.

    simple enough, even a "logician" could figure that one out ;)


    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent.

    Not entirely .. not without presenting the data as I described above, no, they are not being completely transparent.
    Yes, they gave fair heads up that he will change .. Thank you .. that's a great start .. however, it's mostly meaningless without the data to support it.


    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.

    false assumption, as there is yet any evidence to support the "theory" .. (I'm calling it a theory from now on, until actual "proof" shows up to support it .. that seems fair :) )

    You're calling Kabam out on their own data. Good luck with that. Lol.
    He’s also calling you out on your fallacious argument.
    My fallacious argument? No. I'm going on the information provided. As far as this Forum is concerned, their comments are about as close to fact as we can get. We won't be seeing their internal metrics anytime soon. They may or may not post a list of what aspects they looked at and how he scored, but I doubt it. Even that wouldn't suffice for people. They'd just argue they weren't looking at the right things. Anything I've said thus far has been logical and educated based on the facts provided here. By all means, you're free to claim hanging chads.
    There has been no information provided other than the statement that their data shows he is out damaging other to champs. They made a statement about data not provided. Your argument is you believe their data but unless you have personally seen it 🤔 you are only going off the statement given. They have given exactly 2 peices of information.
    1 they believe his damage is too high
    2 they will be reducing his damage
    Unless you have some inside sources feeding you information from the game team what you are arguing is that you agree with their decision since only kabam employees have had access to the data and the sources it was gathered from. I kinda think it would be easier to argue this is a correct move if more information on the data was shared. It would also be nice to get some information from a kabam representative on this thread
    When do they ever provide their data in cases like these? I wasn't aware it was a group decision.
    You said you are going off the information provided. Just curious because it seems like you are going off blind faith. You don't even have a rebuttal to the lack of information just a statement asking when they ever release that. Well that would be what a quarter or more of these posts are asking them to do so they can understand what this data is showing since all but a select few can't seem to understand what makes him so game breaking and haven't been given any responses to this question
    I don't remember them saying game breaking. They said he was doing more than any other higher-end Champ.
    You might consider it blind faith. I don't. The difference between our opinions and theirs is, their opinions are the ones shaping the game, weighted by working on it and having access to the information and knowledge of their own goals. If you want to call trusting that blind faith, have at it. You either believe them, or you don't. I do.
    What you are missing there is while their opinion may shape the game the player base's opinion is what keeps them in business. Alienate your customers and your business doesn't last long. I'm not making threats just stating a simple fact about business. Also one would have to be either very young or very naive to believe all decisions are made for the betterment of the game. They are a for profit business so if they feel a decision would make them money they will do it. I don't fault them for it it's just business. You can blindly follow along believing the company has only your best interests at heart if you choose but I assure you that you are just another credit card number to them.
    On a side note. I did see a vid by a Youtubers who I'm sure was speaking out of frustration but remember. The mods are just doing a job and giving the response they have been told. While some responses and posts from mods are seen has stupid or illogical they are just the bottom of the corporate pyramid. It would be nice to hear from someone in the development or research department on the forum to give real insight into these changes
    If you're saying "We pay the bills.", that's not really an argument for changes that are necessary for balance. Yes, it's important to care about your customers. Yes, people spend. Yes, people matter. If you're saying people have the final say in decisions that affect the game overall based on that fact, and that it takes precedence over the actual data, I'm inclined to disagree.
    TL:DR - We don't control the game.
    In reality the customer base does have the final say. If the company alienates the customer base they have no revenue coming in and the game **** down. Again not calling for a boycott and not saying I'm against game balance. I'm simply replying to your statement and stating that they may want to open a two way conversation with their players since this thread hasn't had s response from a mod or anyone else from kabam since page 3 I think
    Sorry, I disagree. The Players don't have the final say concerning in-house decisions for the betterment of the game. I don't have any objections to people asking for clarification or dialogue. I'm just saying transparency doesn't mean running every decision they make by us for approval.
    Yea they shouldn’t run every decision by us but we should at least know what we’re paying for. People spent a lot of money for disappointment. He’s not even the best champion in the game. Yea he’s good but he’s not so good that he needs to be nerfed. There’s no trust in the champions they put out anymore. There’s always a fear of disappointment. At this point it’s bigger than just this one champion. They’ve screwed people over on their money before and they’re doing it again. Everyone’s sick of it and now they’re finally pushing back.
    What you're paying for is permission to use their game, and they have the right to change it if necessary. It's in the TOS. People keep saying they have a right to what they pay for, but don't stop to read what it is they're actually paying for.
  • TimeGenesisTimeGenesis Posts: 716 ★★★
    Well here's an idea for you Kabam. Since we now have this 3 month phase before you "fine tune" a champ, why not do a loan to the player base of this new champ as a 3 star or maybe even a 2 star. Let everyone test it during this time through all the contents and then you can gather as much data as you want with that. Perhaps get people to earn some rewards for this testing. then once the "loan" ends, fine tune whatever you want with them and sell them as per usual.

    This way you will probably get more people buying those crystals that will be happy with it instead of annoying all the players by making them spend big time on a champ they thought they like that will just get nerfed in the end.
  • IronMaiden66IronMaiden66 Posts: 40
    edited September 2019

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    CFree said:

    dot_ditto said:


    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.

    See this is the big fallacy at your end ..
    massive assumption that "the data must be accurate" .. even though you haven't seen it.

    I believe it's a very fair (and simple/straight forward) request to see the data ..

    The only thing we really need is something like:
    (and yes, I'm making these up to illustrate exactly what it is I (personally) am referring to when I ask to see "the data" ):

    Cull 5* R4. Level 55. Sig 100 (5 charges)
    Masteries (for baseline, I guess, whatever)
    vs
    Maestro (act 4, final boss .. whatever his stats are).
    (are they conditional nodes? I forget .. if so, specify which ones are active).

    Light attack: 123 damage (456 crit) (I know, #'s are fake .. I'm demonstrating a template here, not actual data).
    Medium attack: 345 damage (789 crit).

    With 5 stacks of Armor break:
    Light attack: 456 damage (1023 crit)
    Medium attack: 789 damage (1400 crit).

    ... something like that ... in that format ... is what would be useful for us all to see "WOW, that's broken!!".
    or "oh, that's not too bad, here, let me show #'s for xxx champ in similar situation" ..

    or .. whatever ..

    as usual ... (both sides) are speculating grandly with no real facts/evidence to support their "theories" ..

    so let's start with you .. if you are so sure: "so all evidence points to the data being accurate" please, setup an example above, and demonstrate the numbers?

    Please. I'm asking politely, respectly ... in an attempt to understand the numbers.

    thank you.

    and before somebody comes on and challenges me to provide data .. It's not my responsibility to show data for somebody ELSE making a claim.

    Kabam made a claim .. please provide data to support. Thank you.
    GW (and others) have backed up and supported above claim, acclaiming to it's accuracy. Please provide data to support. Thank you.

    I will provide data once I have a baseline to compare to .. once I see the data we're talking about Cull .. then (and only then) can we (the ones in disagreement) go setup a similar test case to demonstrate the opposite.

    simple enough, even a "logician" could figure that one out ;)


    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent.

    Not entirely .. not without presenting the data as I described above, no, they are not being completely transparent.
    Yes, they gave fair heads up that he will change .. Thank you .. that's a great start .. however, it's mostly meaningless without the data to support it.


    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.

    false assumption, as there is yet any evidence to support the "theory" .. (I'm calling it a theory from now on, until actual "proof" shows up to support it .. that seems fair :) )

    You're calling Kabam out on their own data. Good luck with that. Lol.
    He’s also calling you out on your fallacious argument.
    My fallacious argument? No. I'm going on the information provided. As far as this Forum is concerned, their comments are about as close to fact as we can get. We won't be seeing their internal metrics anytime soon. They may or may not post a list of what aspects they looked at and how he scored, but I doubt it. Even that wouldn't suffice for people. They'd just argue they weren't looking at the right things. Anything I've said thus far has been logical and educated based on the facts provided here. By all means, you're free to claim hanging chads.
    There has been no information provided other than the statement that their data shows he is out damaging other to champs. They made a statement about data not provided. Your argument is you believe their data but unless you have personally seen it 🤔 you are only going off the statement given. They have given exactly 2 peices of information.
    1 they believe his damage is too high
    2 they will be reducing his damage
    Unless you have some inside sources feeding you information from the game team what you are arguing is that you agree with their decision since only kabam employees have had access to the data and the sources it was gathered from. I kinda think it would be easier to argue this is a correct move if more information on the data was shared. It would also be nice to get some information from a kabam representative on this thread
    When do they ever provide their data in cases like these? I wasn't aware it was a group decision.
    You said you are going off the information provided. Just curious because it seems like you are going off blind faith. You don't even have a rebuttal to the lack of information just a statement asking when they ever release that. Well that would be what a quarter or more of these posts are asking them to do so they can understand what this data is showing since all but a select few can't seem to understand what makes him so game breaking and haven't been given any responses to this question
    I don't remember them saying game breaking. They said he was doing more than any other higher-end Champ.
    You might consider it blind faith. I don't. The difference between our opinions and theirs is, their opinions are the ones shaping the game, weighted by working on it and having access to the information and knowledge of their own goals. If you want to call trusting that blind faith, have at it. You either believe them, or you don't. I do.
    What you are missing there is while their opinion may shape the game the player base's opinion is what keeps them in business. Alienate your customers and your business doesn't last long. I'm not making threats just stating a simple fact about business. Also one would have to be either very young or very naive to believe all decisions are made for the betterment of the game. They are a for profit business so if they feel a decision would make them money they will do it. I don't fault them for it it's just business. You can blindly follow along believing the company has only your best interests at heart if you choose but I assure you that you are just another credit card number to them.
    On a side note. I did see a vid by a Youtubers who I'm sure was speaking out of frustration but remember. The mods are just doing a job and giving the response they have been told. While some responses and posts from mods are seen has stupid or illogical they are just the bottom of the corporate pyramid. It would be nice to hear from someone in the development or research department on the forum to give real insight into these changes
    If you're saying "We pay the bills.", that's not really an argument for changes that are necessary for balance. Yes, it's important to care about your customers. Yes, people spend. Yes, people matter. If you're saying people have the final say in decisions that affect the game overall based on that fact, and that it takes precedence over the actual data, I'm inclined to disagree.
    TL:DR - We don't control the game.
    In reality the customer base does have the final say. If the company alienates the customer base they have no revenue coming in and the game **** down. Again not calling for a boycott and not saying I'm against game balance. I'm simply replying to your statement and stating that they may want to open a two way conversation with their players since this thread hasn't had s response from a mod or anyone else from kabam since page 3 I think
    Sorry, I disagree. The Players don't have the final say concerning in-house decisions for the betterment of the game. I don't have any objections to people asking for clarification or dialogue. I'm just saying transparency doesn't mean running every decision they make by us for approval.
    Yea they shouldn’t run every decision by us but we should at least know what we’re paying for. People spent a lot of money for disappointment. He’s not even the best champion in the game. Yea he’s good but he’s not so good that he needs to be nerfed. There’s no trust in the champions they put out anymore. There’s always a fear of disappointment. At this point it’s bigger than just this one champion. They’ve screwed people over on their money before and they’re doing it again. Everyone’s sick of it and now they’re finally pushing back.
    What you're paying for is permission to use their game, and they have the right to change it if necessary. It's in the TOS. People keep saying they have a right to what they pay for, but don't stop to read what it is they're actually paying for.
    Actually I’m not paying for permission to play the game. The game is free. I haven’t spent a dime on this game. I do however believe, even if they have the right to change it, that to downgrade something that people have spent a lot of money on is immoral. I did read the TOS and they do have the right to change anything. Does that mean they should just screw people over? It’s almost like they hype up a champion just so people buy it then they downgrade them just cause they didn’t actually want him where he was at. I guarantee they test out the gameplay and know exactly what they’re doing. It’s basically false advertisement.

  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,852 ★★★★★

    CFree said:

    dot_ditto said:


    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.

    See this is the big fallacy at your end ..
    massive assumption that "the data must be accurate" .. even though you haven't seen it.

    I believe it's a very fair (and simple/straight forward) request to see the data ..

    The only thing we really need is something like:
    (and yes, I'm making these up to illustrate exactly what it is I (personally) am referring to when I ask to see "the data" ):

    Cull 5* R4. Level 55. Sig 100 (5 charges)
    Masteries (for baseline, I guess, whatever)
    vs
    Maestro (act 4, final boss .. whatever his stats are).
    (are they conditional nodes? I forget .. if so, specify which ones are active).

    Light attack: 123 damage (456 crit) (I know, #'s are fake .. I'm demonstrating a template here, not actual data).
    Medium attack: 345 damage (789 crit).

    With 5 stacks of Armor break:
    Light attack: 456 damage (1023 crit)
    Medium attack: 789 damage (1400 crit).

    ... something like that ... in that format ... is what would be useful for us all to see "WOW, that's broken!!".
    or "oh, that's not too bad, here, let me show #'s for xxx champ in similar situation" ..

    or .. whatever ..

    as usual ... (both sides) are speculating grandly with no real facts/evidence to support their "theories" ..

    so let's start with you .. if you are so sure: "so all evidence points to the data being accurate" please, setup an example above, and demonstrate the numbers?

    Please. I'm asking politely, respectly ... in an attempt to understand the numbers.

    thank you.

    and before somebody comes on and challenges me to provide data .. It's not my responsibility to show data for somebody ELSE making a claim.

    Kabam made a claim .. please provide data to support. Thank you.
    GW (and others) have backed up and supported above claim, acclaiming to it's accuracy. Please provide data to support. Thank you.

    I will provide data once I have a baseline to compare to .. once I see the data we're talking about Cull .. then (and only then) can we (the ones in disagreement) go setup a similar test case to demonstrate the opposite.

    simple enough, even a "logician" could figure that one out ;)


    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent.

    Not entirely .. not without presenting the data as I described above, no, they are not being completely transparent.
    Yes, they gave fair heads up that he will change .. Thank you .. that's a great start .. however, it's mostly meaningless without the data to support it.


    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.

    false assumption, as there is yet any evidence to support the "theory" .. (I'm calling it a theory from now on, until actual "proof" shows up to support it .. that seems fair :) )

    You're calling Kabam out on their own data. Good luck with that. Lol.
    He’s also calling you out on your fallacious argument.
    My fallacious argument? No. I'm going on the information provided. As far as this Forum is concerned, their comments are about as close to fact as we can get. We won't be seeing their internal metrics anytime soon. They may or may not post a list of what aspects they looked at and how he scored, but I doubt it. Even that wouldn't suffice for people. They'd just argue they weren't looking at the right things. Anything I've said thus far has been logical and educated based on the facts provided here. By all means, you're free to claim hanging chads.
    Again, your fundamental assumption is that Kabam is correct. If the closest we can get to fact is the information provided by Kabam, then there is no point debating anything they decide to do. If your starting assumption is that Kabam is correct and then you argue from that, it isn't surprising that you don't seem to ever waiver or change your mind and generally conclude that Kabam's position is the right one. But we all have the statements from Kabam. It is unnecessary to keep asserting them. People are arguing from game experience and your response is essentially "Kabam's data says 'x' so 'x' is correct."
    So which would you side with? People with years of experience working on a product who also have access to all the information, or people who are upset at the very idea of changing anything? One side is operating on emotion. The other side is operating out of experience and access to data.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,852 ★★★★★
    dot_ditto said:


    So which would you side with? People with years of experience working on a product who also have access to all the information, or people who are upset at the very idea of changing anything? One side is operating on emotion. The other side is operating out of experience and access to data.

    One side is lacking the full information to make any decision ... making that information more available and being more transparent would be the ideal solution, wouldn't you say ?
    It's not our decision to make.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,852 ★★★★★
    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    CFree said:

    dot_ditto said:


    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.

    See this is the big fallacy at your end ..
    massive assumption that "the data must be accurate" .. even though you haven't seen it.

    I believe it's a very fair (and simple/straight forward) request to see the data ..

    The only thing we really need is something like:
    (and yes, I'm making these up to illustrate exactly what it is I (personally) am referring to when I ask to see "the data" ):

    Cull 5* R4. Level 55. Sig 100 (5 charges)
    Masteries (for baseline, I guess, whatever)
    vs
    Maestro (act 4, final boss .. whatever his stats are).
    (are they conditional nodes? I forget .. if so, specify which ones are active).

    Light attack: 123 damage (456 crit) (I know, #'s are fake .. I'm demonstrating a template here, not actual data).
    Medium attack: 345 damage (789 crit).

    With 5 stacks of Armor break:
    Light attack: 456 damage (1023 crit)
    Medium attack: 789 damage (1400 crit).

    ... something like that ... in that format ... is what would be useful for us all to see "WOW, that's broken!!".
    or "oh, that's not too bad, here, let me show #'s for xxx champ in similar situation" ..

    or .. whatever ..

    as usual ... (both sides) are speculating grandly with no real facts/evidence to support their "theories" ..

    so let's start with you .. if you are so sure: "so all evidence points to the data being accurate" please, setup an example above, and demonstrate the numbers?

    Please. I'm asking politely, respectly ... in an attempt to understand the numbers.

    thank you.

    and before somebody comes on and challenges me to provide data .. It's not my responsibility to show data for somebody ELSE making a claim.

    Kabam made a claim .. please provide data to support. Thank you.
    GW (and others) have backed up and supported above claim, acclaiming to it's accuracy. Please provide data to support. Thank you.

    I will provide data once I have a baseline to compare to .. once I see the data we're talking about Cull .. then (and only then) can we (the ones in disagreement) go setup a similar test case to demonstrate the opposite.

    simple enough, even a "logician" could figure that one out ;)


    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent.

    Not entirely .. not without presenting the data as I described above, no, they are not being completely transparent.
    Yes, they gave fair heads up that he will change .. Thank you .. that's a great start .. however, it's mostly meaningless without the data to support it.


    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.

    false assumption, as there is yet any evidence to support the "theory" .. (I'm calling it a theory from now on, until actual "proof" shows up to support it .. that seems fair :) )

    You're calling Kabam out on their own data. Good luck with that. Lol.
    He’s also calling you out on your fallacious argument.
    My fallacious argument? No. I'm going on the information provided. As far as this Forum is concerned, their comments are about as close to fact as we can get. We won't be seeing their internal metrics anytime soon. They may or may not post a list of what aspects they looked at and how he scored, but I doubt it. Even that wouldn't suffice for people. They'd just argue they weren't looking at the right things. Anything I've said thus far has been logical and educated based on the facts provided here. By all means, you're free to claim hanging chads.
    There has been no information provided other than the statement that their data shows he is out damaging other to champs. They made a statement about data not provided. Your argument is you believe their data but unless you have personally seen it 🤔 you are only going off the statement given. They have given exactly 2 peices of information.
    1 they believe his damage is too high
    2 they will be reducing his damage
    Unless you have some inside sources feeding you information from the game team what you are arguing is that you agree with their decision since only kabam employees have had access to the data and the sources it was gathered from. I kinda think it would be easier to argue this is a correct move if more information on the data was shared. It would also be nice to get some information from a kabam representative on this thread
    When do they ever provide their data in cases like these? I wasn't aware it was a group decision.
    You said you are going off the information provided. Just curious because it seems like you are going off blind faith. You don't even have a rebuttal to the lack of information just a statement asking when they ever release that. Well that would be what a quarter or more of these posts are asking them to do so they can understand what this data is showing since all but a select few can't seem to understand what makes him so game breaking and haven't been given any responses to this question
    I don't remember them saying game breaking. They said he was doing more than any other higher-end Champ.
    You might consider it blind faith. I don't. The difference between our opinions and theirs is, their opinions are the ones shaping the game, weighted by working on it and having access to the information and knowledge of their own goals. If you want to call trusting that blind faith, have at it. You either believe them, or you don't. I do.
    What you are missing there is while their opinion may shape the game the player base's opinion is what keeps them in business. Alienate your customers and your business doesn't last long. I'm not making threats just stating a simple fact about business. Also one would have to be either very young or very naive to believe all decisions are made for the betterment of the game. They are a for profit business so if they feel a decision would make them money they will do it. I don't fault them for it it's just business. You can blindly follow along believing the company has only your best interests at heart if you choose but I assure you that you are just another credit card number to them.
    On a side note. I did see a vid by a Youtubers who I'm sure was speaking out of frustration but remember. The mods are just doing a job and giving the response they have been told. While some responses and posts from mods are seen has stupid or illogical they are just the bottom of the corporate pyramid. It would be nice to hear from someone in the development or research department on the forum to give real insight into these changes
    If you're saying "We pay the bills.", that's not really an argument for changes that are necessary for balance. Yes, it's important to care about your customers. Yes, people spend. Yes, people matter. If you're saying people have the final say in decisions that affect the game overall based on that fact, and that it takes precedence over the actual data, I'm inclined to disagree.
    TL:DR - We don't control the game.
    In reality the customer base does have the final say. If the company alienates the customer base they have no revenue coming in and the game **** down. Again not calling for a boycott and not saying I'm against game balance. I'm simply replying to your statement and stating that they may want to open a two way conversation with their players since this thread hasn't had s response from a mod or anyone else from kabam since page 3 I think
    Sorry, I disagree. The Players don't have the final say concerning in-house decisions for the betterment of the game. I don't have any objections to people asking for clarification or dialogue. I'm just saying transparency doesn't mean running every decision they make by us for approval.
    You must not understand business. If you dont have customers you don't have a business. In the end if you alienate your customers you are doomed.

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    CFree said:

    dot_ditto said:


    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.

    See this is the big fallacy at your end ..
    massive assumption that "the data must be accurate" .. even though you haven't seen it.

    I believe it's a very fair (and simple/straight forward) request to see the data ..

    The only thing we really need is something like:
    (and yes, I'm making these up to illustrate exactly what it is I (personally) am referring to when I ask to see "the data" ):

    Cull 5* R4. Level 55. Sig 100 (5 charges)
    Masteries (for baseline, I guess, whatever)
    vs
    Maestro (act 4, final boss .. whatever his stats are).
    (are they conditional nodes? I forget .. if so, specify which ones are active).

    Light attack: 123 damage (456 crit) (I know, #'s are fake .. I'm demonstrating a template here, not actual data).
    Medium attack: 345 damage (789 crit).

    With 5 stacks of Armor break:
    Light attack: 456 damage (1023 crit)
    Medium attack: 789 damage (1400 crit).

    ... something like that ... in that format ... is what would be useful for us all to see "WOW, that's broken!!".
    or "oh, that's not too bad, here, let me show #'s for xxx champ in similar situation" ..

    or .. whatever ..

    as usual ... (both sides) are speculating grandly with no real facts/evidence to support their "theories" ..

    so let's start with you .. if you are so sure: "so all evidence points to the data being accurate" please, setup an example above, and demonstrate the numbers?

    Please. I'm asking politely, respectly ... in an attempt to understand the numbers.

    thank you.

    and before somebody comes on and challenges me to provide data .. It's not my responsibility to show data for somebody ELSE making a claim.

    Kabam made a claim .. please provide data to support. Thank you.
    GW (and others) have backed up and supported above claim, acclaiming to it's accuracy. Please provide data to support. Thank you.

    I will provide data once I have a baseline to compare to .. once I see the data we're talking about Cull .. then (and only then) can we (the ones in disagreement) go setup a similar test case to demonstrate the opposite.

    simple enough, even a "logician" could figure that one out ;)


    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent.

    Not entirely .. not without presenting the data as I described above, no, they are not being completely transparent.
    Yes, they gave fair heads up that he will change .. Thank you .. that's a great start .. however, it's mostly meaningless without the data to support it.


    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.

    false assumption, as there is yet any evidence to support the "theory" .. (I'm calling it a theory from now on, until actual "proof" shows up to support it .. that seems fair :) )

    You're calling Kabam out on their own data. Good luck with that. Lol.
    He’s also calling you out on your fallacious argument.
    My fallacious argument? No. I'm going on the information provided. As far as this Forum is concerned, their comments are about as close to fact as we can get. We won't be seeing their internal metrics anytime soon. They may or may not post a list of what aspects they looked at and how he scored, but I doubt it. Even that wouldn't suffice for people. They'd just argue they weren't looking at the right things. Anything I've said thus far has been logical and educated based on the facts provided here. By all means, you're free to claim hanging chads.
    There has been no information provided other than the statement that their data shows he is out damaging other to champs. They made a statement about data not provided. Your argument is you believe their data but unless you have personally seen it 🤔 you are only going off the statement given. They have given exactly 2 peices of information.
    1 they believe his damage is too high
    2 they will be reducing his damage
    Unless you have some inside sources feeding you information from the game team what you are arguing is that you agree with their decision since only kabam employees have had access to the data and the sources it was gathered from. I kinda think it would be easier to argue this is a correct move if more information on the data was shared. It would also be nice to get some information from a kabam representative on this thread
    When do they ever provide their data in cases like these? I wasn't aware it was a group decision.
    You said you are going off the information provided. Just curious because it seems like you are going off blind faith. You don't even have a rebuttal to the lack of information just a statement asking when they ever release that. Well that would be what a quarter or more of these posts are asking them to do so they can understand what this data is showing since all but a select few can't seem to understand what makes him so game breaking and haven't been given any responses to this question
    I don't remember them saying game breaking. They said he was doing more than any other higher-end Champ.
    You might consider it blind faith. I don't. The difference between our opinions and theirs is, their opinions are the ones shaping the game, weighted by working on it and having access to the information and knowledge of their own goals. If you want to call trusting that blind faith, have at it. You either believe them, or you don't. I do.
    What you are missing there is while their opinion may shape the game the player base's opinion is what keeps them in business. Alienate your customers and your business doesn't last long. I'm not making threats just stating a simple fact about business. Also one would have to be either very young or very naive to believe all decisions are made for the betterment of the game. They are a for profit business so if they feel a decision would make them money they will do it. I don't fault them for it it's just business. You can blindly follow along believing the company has only your best interests at heart if you choose but I assure you that you are just another credit card number to them.
    On a side note. I did see a vid by a Youtubers who I'm sure was speaking out of frustration but remember. The mods are just doing a job and giving the response they have been told. While some responses and posts from mods are seen has stupid or illogical they are just the bottom of the corporate pyramid. It would be nice to hear from someone in the development or research department on the forum to give real insight into these changes
    If you're saying "We pay the bills.", that's not really an argument for changes that are necessary for balance. Yes, it's important to care about your customers. Yes, people spend. Yes, people matter. If you're saying people have the final say in decisions that affect the game overall based on that fact, and that it takes precedence over the actual data, I'm inclined to disagree.
    TL:DR - We don't control the game.
    In reality the customer base does have the final say. If the company alienates the customer base they have no revenue coming in and the game **** down. Again not calling for a boycott and not saying I'm against game balance. I'm simply replying to your statement and stating that they may want to open a two way conversation with their players since this thread hasn't had s response from a mod or anyone else from kabam since page 3 I think
    Sorry, I disagree. The Players don't have the final say concerning in-house decisions for the betterment of the game. I don't have any objections to people asking for clarification or dialogue. I'm just saying transparency doesn't mean running every decision they make by us for approval.
    Yea they shouldn’t run every decision by us but we should at least know what we’re paying for. People spent a lot of money for disappointment. He’s not even the best champion in the game. Yea he’s good but he’s not so good that he needs to be nerfed. There’s no trust in the champions they put out anymore. There’s always a fear of disappointment. At this point it’s bigger than just this one champion. They’ve screwed people over on their money before and they’re doing it again. Everyone’s sick of it and now they’re finally pushing back.
    What you're paying for is permission to use their game, and they have the right to change it if necessary. It's in the TOS. People keep saying they have a right to what they pay for, but don't stop to read what it is they're actually paying for.
    You are mistaken here. You don't pay to use the game. You pay for access to new champs and resources in the game. It's closer to renting since that right can be taken away. To expand on that analogy if you rent the blue ray of avengers endgame and half way through the store employee comes to your home and takes the blue ray and hands you a VHS saying it's the same movie enjoy. How happy should the customer be?
    You're essentially paying for permission (access) to certain aspects.
  • DshuDshu Posts: 1,432 ★★★★

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    CFree said:

    dot_ditto said:


    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.

    See this is the big fallacy at your end ..
    massive assumption that "the data must be accurate" .. even though you haven't seen it.

    I believe it's a very fair (and simple/straight forward) request to see the data ..

    The only thing we really need is something like:
    (and yes, I'm making these up to illustrate exactly what it is I (personally) am referring to when I ask to see "the data" ):

    Cull 5* R4. Level 55. Sig 100 (5 charges)
    Masteries (for baseline, I guess, whatever)
    vs
    Maestro (act 4, final boss .. whatever his stats are).
    (are they conditional nodes? I forget .. if so, specify which ones are active).

    Light attack: 123 damage (456 crit) (I know, #'s are fake .. I'm demonstrating a template here, not actual data).
    Medium attack: 345 damage (789 crit).

    With 5 stacks of Armor break:
    Light attack: 456 damage (1023 crit)
    Medium attack: 789 damage (1400 crit).

    ... something like that ... in that format ... is what would be useful for us all to see "WOW, that's broken!!".
    or "oh, that's not too bad, here, let me show #'s for xxx champ in similar situation" ..

    or .. whatever ..

    as usual ... (both sides) are speculating grandly with no real facts/evidence to support their "theories" ..

    so let's start with you .. if you are so sure: "so all evidence points to the data being accurate" please, setup an example above, and demonstrate the numbers?

    Please. I'm asking politely, respectly ... in an attempt to understand the numbers.

    thank you.

    and before somebody comes on and challenges me to provide data .. It's not my responsibility to show data for somebody ELSE making a claim.

    Kabam made a claim .. please provide data to support. Thank you.
    GW (and others) have backed up and supported above claim, acclaiming to it's accuracy. Please provide data to support. Thank you.

    I will provide data once I have a baseline to compare to .. once I see the data we're talking about Cull .. then (and only then) can we (the ones in disagreement) go setup a similar test case to demonstrate the opposite.

    simple enough, even a "logician" could figure that one out ;)


    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent.

    Not entirely .. not without presenting the data as I described above, no, they are not being completely transparent.
    Yes, they gave fair heads up that he will change .. Thank you .. that's a great start .. however, it's mostly meaningless without the data to support it.


    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.

    false assumption, as there is yet any evidence to support the "theory" .. (I'm calling it a theory from now on, until actual "proof" shows up to support it .. that seems fair :) )

    You're calling Kabam out on their own data. Good luck with that. Lol.
    He’s also calling you out on your fallacious argument.
    My fallacious argument? No. I'm going on the information provided. As far as this Forum is concerned, their comments are about as close to fact as we can get. We won't be seeing their internal metrics anytime soon. They may or may not post a list of what aspects they looked at and how he scored, but I doubt it. Even that wouldn't suffice for people. They'd just argue they weren't looking at the right things. Anything I've said thus far has been logical and educated based on the facts provided here. By all means, you're free to claim hanging chads.
    There has been no information provided other than the statement that their data shows he is out damaging other to champs. They made a statement about data not provided. Your argument is you believe their data but unless you have personally seen it 🤔 you are only going off the statement given. They have given exactly 2 peices of information.
    1 they believe his damage is too high
    2 they will be reducing his damage
    Unless you have some inside sources feeding you information from the game team what you are arguing is that you agree with their decision since only kabam employees have had access to the data and the sources it was gathered from. I kinda think it would be easier to argue this is a correct move if more information on the data was shared. It would also be nice to get some information from a kabam representative on this thread
    When do they ever provide their data in cases like these? I wasn't aware it was a group decision.
    You said you are going off the information provided. Just curious because it seems like you are going off blind faith. You don't even have a rebuttal to the lack of information just a statement asking when they ever release that. Well that would be what a quarter or more of these posts are asking them to do so they can understand what this data is showing since all but a select few can't seem to understand what makes him so game breaking and haven't been given any responses to this question
    I don't remember them saying game breaking. They said he was doing more than any other higher-end Champ.
    You might consider it blind faith. I don't. The difference between our opinions and theirs is, their opinions are the ones shaping the game, weighted by working on it and having access to the information and knowledge of their own goals. If you want to call trusting that blind faith, have at it. You either believe them, or you don't. I do.
    What you are missing there is while their opinion may shape the game the player base's opinion is what keeps them in business. Alienate your customers and your business doesn't last long. I'm not making threats just stating a simple fact about business. Also one would have to be either very young or very naive to believe all decisions are made for the betterment of the game. They are a for profit business so if they feel a decision would make them money they will do it. I don't fault them for it it's just business. You can blindly follow along believing the company has only your best interests at heart if you choose but I assure you that you are just another credit card number to them.
    On a side note. I did see a vid by a Youtubers who I'm sure was speaking out of frustration but remember. The mods are just doing a job and giving the response they have been told. While some responses and posts from mods are seen has stupid or illogical they are just the bottom of the corporate pyramid. It would be nice to hear from someone in the development or research department on the forum to give real insight into these changes
    If you're saying "We pay the bills.", that's not really an argument for changes that are necessary for balance. Yes, it's important to care about your customers. Yes, people spend. Yes, people matter. If you're saying people have the final say in decisions that affect the game overall based on that fact, and that it takes precedence over the actual data, I'm inclined to disagree.
    TL:DR - We don't control the game.
    In reality the customer base does have the final say. If the company alienates the customer base they have no revenue coming in and the game **** down. Again not calling for a boycott and not saying I'm against game balance. I'm simply replying to your statement and stating that they may want to open a two way conversation with their players since this thread hasn't had s response from a mod or anyone else from kabam since page 3 I think
    Sorry, I disagree. The Players don't have the final say concerning in-house decisions for the betterment of the game. I don't have any objections to people asking for clarification or dialogue. I'm just saying transparency doesn't mean running every decision they make by us for approval.
    You must not understand business. If you dont have customers you don't have a business. In the end if you alienate your customers you are doomed.

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    CFree said:

    dot_ditto said:


    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.

    See this is the big fallacy at your end ..
    massive assumption that "the data must be accurate" .. even though you haven't seen it.

    I believe it's a very fair (and simple/straight forward) request to see the data ..

    The only thing we really need is something like:
    (and yes, I'm making these up to illustrate exactly what it is I (personally) am referring to when I ask to see "the data" ):

    Cull 5* R4. Level 55. Sig 100 (5 charges)
    Masteries (for baseline, I guess, whatever)
    vs
    Maestro (act 4, final boss .. whatever his stats are).
    (are they conditional nodes? I forget .. if so, specify which ones are active).

    Light attack: 123 damage (456 crit) (I know, #'s are fake .. I'm demonstrating a template here, not actual data).
    Medium attack: 345 damage (789 crit).

    With 5 stacks of Armor break:
    Light attack: 456 damage (1023 crit)
    Medium attack: 789 damage (1400 crit).

    ... something like that ... in that format ... is what would be useful for us all to see "WOW, that's broken!!".
    or "oh, that's not too bad, here, let me show #'s for xxx champ in similar situation" ..

    or .. whatever ..

    as usual ... (both sides) are speculating grandly with no real facts/evidence to support their "theories" ..

    so let's start with you .. if you are so sure: "so all evidence points to the data being accurate" please, setup an example above, and demonstrate the numbers?

    Please. I'm asking politely, respectly ... in an attempt to understand the numbers.

    thank you.

    and before somebody comes on and challenges me to provide data .. It's not my responsibility to show data for somebody ELSE making a claim.

    Kabam made a claim .. please provide data to support. Thank you.
    GW (and others) have backed up and supported above claim, acclaiming to it's accuracy. Please provide data to support. Thank you.

    I will provide data once I have a baseline to compare to .. once I see the data we're talking about Cull .. then (and only then) can we (the ones in disagreement) go setup a similar test case to demonstrate the opposite.

    simple enough, even a "logician" could figure that one out ;)


    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent.

    Not entirely .. not without presenting the data as I described above, no, they are not being completely transparent.
    Yes, they gave fair heads up that he will change .. Thank you .. that's a great start .. however, it's mostly meaningless without the data to support it.


    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.

    false assumption, as there is yet any evidence to support the "theory" .. (I'm calling it a theory from now on, until actual "proof" shows up to support it .. that seems fair :) )

    You're calling Kabam out on their own data. Good luck with that. Lol.
    He’s also calling you out on your fallacious argument.
    My fallacious argument? No. I'm going on the information provided. As far as this Forum is concerned, their comments are about as close to fact as we can get. We won't be seeing their internal metrics anytime soon. They may or may not post a list of what aspects they looked at and how he scored, but I doubt it. Even that wouldn't suffice for people. They'd just argue they weren't looking at the right things. Anything I've said thus far has been logical and educated based on the facts provided here. By all means, you're free to claim hanging chads.
    There has been no information provided other than the statement that their data shows he is out damaging other to champs. They made a statement about data not provided. Your argument is you believe their data but unless you have personally seen it 🤔 you are only going off the statement given. They have given exactly 2 peices of information.
    1 they believe his damage is too high
    2 they will be reducing his damage
    Unless you have some inside sources feeding you information from the game team what you are arguing is that you agree with their decision since only kabam employees have had access to the data and the sources it was gathered from. I kinda think it would be easier to argue this is a correct move if more information on the data was shared. It would also be nice to get some information from a kabam representative on this thread
    When do they ever provide their data in cases like these? I wasn't aware it was a group decision.
    You said you are going off the information provided. Just curious because it seems like you are going off blind faith. You don't even have a rebuttal to the lack of information just a statement asking when they ever release that. Well that would be what a quarter or more of these posts are asking them to do so they can understand what this data is showing since all but a select few can't seem to understand what makes him so game breaking and haven't been given any responses to this question
    I don't remember them saying game breaking. They said he was doing more than any other higher-end Champ.
    You might consider it blind faith. I don't. The difference between our opinions and theirs is, their opinions are the ones shaping the game, weighted by working on it and having access to the information and knowledge of their own goals. If you want to call trusting that blind faith, have at it. You either believe them, or you don't. I do.
    What you are missing there is while their opinion may shape the game the player base's opinion is what keeps them in business. Alienate your customers and your business doesn't last long. I'm not making threats just stating a simple fact about business. Also one would have to be either very young or very naive to believe all decisions are made for the betterment of the game. They are a for profit business so if they feel a decision would make them money they will do it. I don't fault them for it it's just business. You can blindly follow along believing the company has only your best interests at heart if you choose but I assure you that you are just another credit card number to them.
    On a side note. I did see a vid by a Youtubers who I'm sure was speaking out of frustration but remember. The mods are just doing a job and giving the response they have been told. While some responses and posts from mods are seen has stupid or illogical they are just the bottom of the corporate pyramid. It would be nice to hear from someone in the development or research department on the forum to give real insight into these changes
    If you're saying "We pay the bills.", that's not really an argument for changes that are necessary for balance. Yes, it's important to care about your customers. Yes, people spend. Yes, people matter. If you're saying people have the final say in decisions that affect the game overall based on that fact, and that it takes precedence over the actual data, I'm inclined to disagree.
    TL:DR - We don't control the game.
    In reality the customer base does have the final say. If the company alienates the customer base they have no revenue coming in and the game **** down. Again not calling for a boycott and not saying I'm against game balance. I'm simply replying to your statement and stating that they may want to open a two way conversation with their players since this thread hasn't had s response from a mod or anyone else from kabam since page 3 I think
    Sorry, I disagree. The Players don't have the final say concerning in-house decisions for the betterment of the game. I don't have any objections to people asking for clarification or dialogue. I'm just saying transparency doesn't mean running every decision they make by us for approval.
    Yea they shouldn’t run every decision by us but we should at least know what we’re paying for. People spent a lot of money for disappointment. He’s not even the best champion in the game. Yea he’s good but he’s not so good that he needs to be nerfed. There’s no trust in the champions they put out anymore. There’s always a fear of disappointment. At this point it’s bigger than just this one champion. They’ve screwed people over on their money before and they’re doing it again. Everyone’s sick of it and now they’re finally pushing back.
    What you're paying for is permission to use their game, and they have the right to change it if necessary. It's in the TOS. People keep saying they have a right to what they pay for, but don't stop to read what it is they're actually paying for.
    You are mistaken here. You don't pay to use the game. You pay for access to new champs and resources in the game. It's closer to renting since that right can be taken away. To expand on that analogy if you rent the blue ray of avengers endgame and half way through the store employee comes to your home and takes the blue ray and hands you a VHS saying it's the same movie enjoy. How happy should the customer be?
    You're essentially paying for permission (access) to certain aspects.
    Thats a far cry from paying to play their game and you are gaining faster access to champions by spending not any special aspect of the game itself
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,852 ★★★★★
    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    CFree said:

    dot_ditto said:


    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.

    See this is the big fallacy at your end ..
    massive assumption that "the data must be accurate" .. even though you haven't seen it.

    I believe it's a very fair (and simple/straight forward) request to see the data ..

    The only thing we really need is something like:
    (and yes, I'm making these up to illustrate exactly what it is I (personally) am referring to when I ask to see "the data" ):

    Cull 5* R4. Level 55. Sig 100 (5 charges)
    Masteries (for baseline, I guess, whatever)
    vs
    Maestro (act 4, final boss .. whatever his stats are).
    (are they conditional nodes? I forget .. if so, specify which ones are active).

    Light attack: 123 damage (456 crit) (I know, #'s are fake .. I'm demonstrating a template here, not actual data).
    Medium attack: 345 damage (789 crit).

    With 5 stacks of Armor break:
    Light attack: 456 damage (1023 crit)
    Medium attack: 789 damage (1400 crit).

    ... something like that ... in that format ... is what would be useful for us all to see "WOW, that's broken!!".
    or "oh, that's not too bad, here, let me show #'s for xxx champ in similar situation" ..

    or .. whatever ..

    as usual ... (both sides) are speculating grandly with no real facts/evidence to support their "theories" ..

    so let's start with you .. if you are so sure: "so all evidence points to the data being accurate" please, setup an example above, and demonstrate the numbers?

    Please. I'm asking politely, respectly ... in an attempt to understand the numbers.

    thank you.

    and before somebody comes on and challenges me to provide data .. It's not my responsibility to show data for somebody ELSE making a claim.

    Kabam made a claim .. please provide data to support. Thank you.
    GW (and others) have backed up and supported above claim, acclaiming to it's accuracy. Please provide data to support. Thank you.

    I will provide data once I have a baseline to compare to .. once I see the data we're talking about Cull .. then (and only then) can we (the ones in disagreement) go setup a similar test case to demonstrate the opposite.

    simple enough, even a "logician" could figure that one out ;)


    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent.

    Not entirely .. not without presenting the data as I described above, no, they are not being completely transparent.
    Yes, they gave fair heads up that he will change .. Thank you .. that's a great start .. however, it's mostly meaningless without the data to support it.


    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.

    false assumption, as there is yet any evidence to support the "theory" .. (I'm calling it a theory from now on, until actual "proof" shows up to support it .. that seems fair :) )

    You're calling Kabam out on their own data. Good luck with that. Lol.
    He’s also calling you out on your fallacious argument.
    My fallacious argument? No. I'm going on the information provided. As far as this Forum is concerned, their comments are about as close to fact as we can get. We won't be seeing their internal metrics anytime soon. They may or may not post a list of what aspects they looked at and how he scored, but I doubt it. Even that wouldn't suffice for people. They'd just argue they weren't looking at the right things. Anything I've said thus far has been logical and educated based on the facts provided here. By all means, you're free to claim hanging chads.
    There has been no information provided other than the statement that their data shows he is out damaging other to champs. They made a statement about data not provided. Your argument is you believe their data but unless you have personally seen it 🤔 you are only going off the statement given. They have given exactly 2 peices of information.
    1 they believe his damage is too high
    2 they will be reducing his damage
    Unless you have some inside sources feeding you information from the game team what you are arguing is that you agree with their decision since only kabam employees have had access to the data and the sources it was gathered from. I kinda think it would be easier to argue this is a correct move if more information on the data was shared. It would also be nice to get some information from a kabam representative on this thread
    When do they ever provide their data in cases like these? I wasn't aware it was a group decision.
    You said you are going off the information provided. Just curious because it seems like you are going off blind faith. You don't even have a rebuttal to the lack of information just a statement asking when they ever release that. Well that would be what a quarter or more of these posts are asking them to do so they can understand what this data is showing since all but a select few can't seem to understand what makes him so game breaking and haven't been given any responses to this question
    I don't remember them saying game breaking. They said he was doing more than any other higher-end Champ.
    You might consider it blind faith. I don't. The difference between our opinions and theirs is, their opinions are the ones shaping the game, weighted by working on it and having access to the information and knowledge of their own goals. If you want to call trusting that blind faith, have at it. You either believe them, or you don't. I do.
    What you are missing there is while their opinion may shape the game the player base's opinion is what keeps them in business. Alienate your customers and your business doesn't last long. I'm not making threats just stating a simple fact about business. Also one would have to be either very young or very naive to believe all decisions are made for the betterment of the game. They are a for profit business so if they feel a decision would make them money they will do it. I don't fault them for it it's just business. You can blindly follow along believing the company has only your best interests at heart if you choose but I assure you that you are just another credit card number to them.
    On a side note. I did see a vid by a Youtubers who I'm sure was speaking out of frustration but remember. The mods are just doing a job and giving the response they have been told. While some responses and posts from mods are seen has stupid or illogical they are just the bottom of the corporate pyramid. It would be nice to hear from someone in the development or research department on the forum to give real insight into these changes
    If you're saying "We pay the bills.", that's not really an argument for changes that are necessary for balance. Yes, it's important to care about your customers. Yes, people spend. Yes, people matter. If you're saying people have the final say in decisions that affect the game overall based on that fact, and that it takes precedence over the actual data, I'm inclined to disagree.
    TL:DR - We don't control the game.
    In reality the customer base does have the final say. If the company alienates the customer base they have no revenue coming in and the game **** down. Again not calling for a boycott and not saying I'm against game balance. I'm simply replying to your statement and stating that they may want to open a two way conversation with their players since this thread hasn't had s response from a mod or anyone else from kabam since page 3 I think
    Sorry, I disagree. The Players don't have the final say concerning in-house decisions for the betterment of the game. I don't have any objections to people asking for clarification or dialogue. I'm just saying transparency doesn't mean running every decision they make by us for approval.
    You must not understand business. If you dont have customers you don't have a business. In the end if you alienate your customers you are doomed.

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    CFree said:

    dot_ditto said:


    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.

    See this is the big fallacy at your end ..
    massive assumption that "the data must be accurate" .. even though you haven't seen it.

    I believe it's a very fair (and simple/straight forward) request to see the data ..

    The only thing we really need is something like:
    (and yes, I'm making these up to illustrate exactly what it is I (personally) am referring to when I ask to see "the data" ):

    Cull 5* R4. Level 55. Sig 100 (5 charges)
    Masteries (for baseline, I guess, whatever)
    vs
    Maestro (act 4, final boss .. whatever his stats are).
    (are they conditional nodes? I forget .. if so, specify which ones are active).

    Light attack: 123 damage (456 crit) (I know, #'s are fake .. I'm demonstrating a template here, not actual data).
    Medium attack: 345 damage (789 crit).

    With 5 stacks of Armor break:
    Light attack: 456 damage (1023 crit)
    Medium attack: 789 damage (1400 crit).

    ... something like that ... in that format ... is what would be useful for us all to see "WOW, that's broken!!".
    or "oh, that's not too bad, here, let me show #'s for xxx champ in similar situation" ..

    or .. whatever ..

    as usual ... (both sides) are speculating grandly with no real facts/evidence to support their "theories" ..

    so let's start with you .. if you are so sure: "so all evidence points to the data being accurate" please, setup an example above, and demonstrate the numbers?

    Please. I'm asking politely, respectly ... in an attempt to understand the numbers.

    thank you.

    and before somebody comes on and challenges me to provide data .. It's not my responsibility to show data for somebody ELSE making a claim.

    Kabam made a claim .. please provide data to support. Thank you.
    GW (and others) have backed up and supported above claim, acclaiming to it's accuracy. Please provide data to support. Thank you.

    I will provide data once I have a baseline to compare to .. once I see the data we're talking about Cull .. then (and only then) can we (the ones in disagreement) go setup a similar test case to demonstrate the opposite.

    simple enough, even a "logician" could figure that one out ;)


    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent.

    Not entirely .. not without presenting the data as I described above, no, they are not being completely transparent.
    Yes, they gave fair heads up that he will change .. Thank you .. that's a great start .. however, it's mostly meaningless without the data to support it.


    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.

    false assumption, as there is yet any evidence to support the "theory" .. (I'm calling it a theory from now on, until actual "proof" shows up to support it .. that seems fair :) )

    You're calling Kabam out on their own data. Good luck with that. Lol.
    He’s also calling you out on your fallacious argument.
    My fallacious argument? No. I'm going on the information provided. As far as this Forum is concerned, their comments are about as close to fact as we can get. We won't be seeing their internal metrics anytime soon. They may or may not post a list of what aspects they looked at and how he scored, but I doubt it. Even that wouldn't suffice for people. They'd just argue they weren't looking at the right things. Anything I've said thus far has been logical and educated based on the facts provided here. By all means, you're free to claim hanging chads.
    There has been no information provided other than the statement that their data shows he is out damaging other to champs. They made a statement about data not provided. Your argument is you believe their data but unless you have personally seen it 🤔 you are only going off the statement given. They have given exactly 2 peices of information.
    1 they believe his damage is too high
    2 they will be reducing his damage
    Unless you have some inside sources feeding you information from the game team what you are arguing is that you agree with their decision since only kabam employees have had access to the data and the sources it was gathered from. I kinda think it would be easier to argue this is a correct move if more information on the data was shared. It would also be nice to get some information from a kabam representative on this thread
    When do they ever provide their data in cases like these? I wasn't aware it was a group decision.
    You said you are going off the information provided. Just curious because it seems like you are going off blind faith. You don't even have a rebuttal to the lack of information just a statement asking when they ever release that. Well that would be what a quarter or more of these posts are asking them to do so they can understand what this data is showing since all but a select few can't seem to understand what makes him so game breaking and haven't been given any responses to this question
    I don't remember them saying game breaking. They said he was doing more than any other higher-end Champ.
    You might consider it blind faith. I don't. The difference between our opinions and theirs is, their opinions are the ones shaping the game, weighted by working on it and having access to the information and knowledge of their own goals. If you want to call trusting that blind faith, have at it. You either believe them, or you don't. I do.
    What you are missing there is while their opinion may shape the game the player base's opinion is what keeps them in business. Alienate your customers and your business doesn't last long. I'm not making threats just stating a simple fact about business. Also one would have to be either very young or very naive to believe all decisions are made for the betterment of the game. They are a for profit business so if they feel a decision would make them money they will do it. I don't fault them for it it's just business. You can blindly follow along believing the company has only your best interests at heart if you choose but I assure you that you are just another credit card number to them.
    On a side note. I did see a vid by a Youtubers who I'm sure was speaking out of frustration but remember. The mods are just doing a job and giving the response they have been told. While some responses and posts from mods are seen has stupid or illogical they are just the bottom of the corporate pyramid. It would be nice to hear from someone in the development or research department on the forum to give real insight into these changes
    If you're saying "We pay the bills.", that's not really an argument for changes that are necessary for balance. Yes, it's important to care about your customers. Yes, people spend. Yes, people matter. If you're saying people have the final say in decisions that affect the game overall based on that fact, and that it takes precedence over the actual data, I'm inclined to disagree.
    TL:DR - We don't control the game.
    In reality the customer base does have the final say. If the company alienates the customer base they have no revenue coming in and the game **** down. Again not calling for a boycott and not saying I'm against game balance. I'm simply replying to your statement and stating that they may want to open a two way conversation with their players since this thread hasn't had s response from a mod or anyone else from kabam since page 3 I think
    Sorry, I disagree. The Players don't have the final say concerning in-house decisions for the betterment of the game. I don't have any objections to people asking for clarification or dialogue. I'm just saying transparency doesn't mean running every decision they make by us for approval.
    Yea they shouldn’t run every decision by us but we should at least know what we’re paying for. People spent a lot of money for disappointment. He’s not even the best champion in the game. Yea he’s good but he’s not so good that he needs to be nerfed. There’s no trust in the champions they put out anymore. There’s always a fear of disappointment. At this point it’s bigger than just this one champion. They’ve screwed people over on their money before and they’re doing it again. Everyone’s sick of it and now they’re finally pushing back.
    What you're paying for is permission to use their game, and they have the right to change it if necessary. It's in the TOS. People keep saying they have a right to what they pay for, but don't stop to read what it is they're actually paying for.
    You are mistaken here. You don't pay to use the game. You pay for access to new champs and resources in the game. It's closer to renting since that right can be taken away. To expand on that analogy if you rent the blue ray of avengers endgame and half way through the store employee comes to your home and takes the blue ray and hands you a VHS saying it's the same movie enjoy. How happy should the customer be?
    You're essentially paying for permission (access) to certain aspects.
    Thats a far cry from paying to play their game and you are gaining faster access to champions by spending not any special aspect of the game itself
    The game itself, no. That's not what I meant. I thought that would have been understood. When you make purchases, you're leasing access to certain aspects, whether that be Champs or Resources. Those aspects, and the game itself, remain property of Kabam. In that, they reserve the right to improve, modify, or change it.
  • DshuDshu Posts: 1,432 ★★★★

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    CFree said:

    dot_ditto said:


    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.

    See this is the big fallacy at your end ..
    massive assumption that "the data must be accurate" .. even though you haven't seen it.

    I believe it's a very fair (and simple/straight forward) request to see the data ..

    The only thing we really need is something like:
    (and yes, I'm making these up to illustrate exactly what it is I (personally) am referring to when I ask to see "the data" ):

    Cull 5* R4. Level 55. Sig 100 (5 charges)
    Masteries (for baseline, I guess, whatever)
    vs
    Maestro (act 4, final boss .. whatever his stats are).
    (are they conditional nodes? I forget .. if so, specify which ones are active).

    Light attack: 123 damage (456 crit) (I know, #'s are fake .. I'm demonstrating a template here, not actual data).
    Medium attack: 345 damage (789 crit).

    With 5 stacks of Armor break:
    Light attack: 456 damage (1023 crit)
    Medium attack: 789 damage (1400 crit).

    ... something like that ... in that format ... is what would be useful for us all to see "WOW, that's broken!!".
    or "oh, that's not too bad, here, let me show #'s for xxx champ in similar situation" ..

    or .. whatever ..

    as usual ... (both sides) are speculating grandly with no real facts/evidence to support their "theories" ..

    so let's start with you .. if you are so sure: "so all evidence points to the data being accurate" please, setup an example above, and demonstrate the numbers?

    Please. I'm asking politely, respectly ... in an attempt to understand the numbers.

    thank you.

    and before somebody comes on and challenges me to provide data .. It's not my responsibility to show data for somebody ELSE making a claim.

    Kabam made a claim .. please provide data to support. Thank you.
    GW (and others) have backed up and supported above claim, acclaiming to it's accuracy. Please provide data to support. Thank you.

    I will provide data once I have a baseline to compare to .. once I see the data we're talking about Cull .. then (and only then) can we (the ones in disagreement) go setup a similar test case to demonstrate the opposite.

    simple enough, even a "logician" could figure that one out ;)


    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent.

    Not entirely .. not without presenting the data as I described above, no, they are not being completely transparent.
    Yes, they gave fair heads up that he will change .. Thank you .. that's a great start .. however, it's mostly meaningless without the data to support it.


    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.

    false assumption, as there is yet any evidence to support the "theory" .. (I'm calling it a theory from now on, until actual "proof" shows up to support it .. that seems fair :) )

    You're calling Kabam out on their own data. Good luck with that. Lol.
    He’s also calling you out on your fallacious argument.
    My fallacious argument? No. I'm going on the information provided. As far as this Forum is concerned, their comments are about as close to fact as we can get. We won't be seeing their internal metrics anytime soon. They may or may not post a list of what aspects they looked at and how he scored, but I doubt it. Even that wouldn't suffice for people. They'd just argue they weren't looking at the right things. Anything I've said thus far has been logical and educated based on the facts provided here. By all means, you're free to claim hanging chads.
    There has been no information provided other than the statement that their data shows he is out damaging other to champs. They made a statement about data not provided. Your argument is you believe their data but unless you have personally seen it 🤔 you are only going off the statement given. They have given exactly 2 peices of information.
    1 they believe his damage is too high
    2 they will be reducing his damage
    Unless you have some inside sources feeding you information from the game team what you are arguing is that you agree with their decision since only kabam employees have had access to the data and the sources it was gathered from. I kinda think it would be easier to argue this is a correct move if more information on the data was shared. It would also be nice to get some information from a kabam representative on this thread
    When do they ever provide their data in cases like these? I wasn't aware it was a group decision.
    You said you are going off the information provided. Just curious because it seems like you are going off blind faith. You don't even have a rebuttal to the lack of information just a statement asking when they ever release that. Well that would be what a quarter or more of these posts are asking them to do so they can understand what this data is showing since all but a select few can't seem to understand what makes him so game breaking and haven't been given any responses to this question
    I don't remember them saying game breaking. They said he was doing more than any other higher-end Champ.
    You might consider it blind faith. I don't. The difference between our opinions and theirs is, their opinions are the ones shaping the game, weighted by working on it and having access to the information and knowledge of their own goals. If you want to call trusting that blind faith, have at it. You either believe them, or you don't. I do.
    What you are missing there is while their opinion may shape the game the player base's opinion is what keeps them in business. Alienate your customers and your business doesn't last long. I'm not making threats just stating a simple fact about business. Also one would have to be either very young or very naive to believe all decisions are made for the betterment of the game. They are a for profit business so if they feel a decision would make them money they will do it. I don't fault them for it it's just business. You can blindly follow along believing the company has only your best interests at heart if you choose but I assure you that you are just another credit card number to them.
    On a side note. I did see a vid by a Youtubers who I'm sure was speaking out of frustration but remember. The mods are just doing a job and giving the response they have been told. While some responses and posts from mods are seen has stupid or illogical they are just the bottom of the corporate pyramid. It would be nice to hear from someone in the development or research department on the forum to give real insight into these changes
    If you're saying "We pay the bills.", that's not really an argument for changes that are necessary for balance. Yes, it's important to care about your customers. Yes, people spend. Yes, people matter. If you're saying people have the final say in decisions that affect the game overall based on that fact, and that it takes precedence over the actual data, I'm inclined to disagree.
    TL:DR - We don't control the game.
    In reality the customer base does have the final say. If the company alienates the customer base they have no revenue coming in and the game **** down. Again not calling for a boycott and not saying I'm against game balance. I'm simply replying to your statement and stating that they may want to open a two way conversation with their players since this thread hasn't had s response from a mod or anyone else from kabam since page 3 I think
    Sorry, I disagree. The Players don't have the final say concerning in-house decisions for the betterment of the game. I don't have any objections to people asking for clarification or dialogue. I'm just saying transparency doesn't mean running every decision they make by us for approval.
    You must not understand business. If you dont have customers you don't have a business. In the end if you alienate your customers you are doomed.

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    CFree said:

    dot_ditto said:


    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.

    See this is the big fallacy at your end ..
    massive assumption that "the data must be accurate" .. even though you haven't seen it.

    I believe it's a very fair (and simple/straight forward) request to see the data ..

    The only thing we really need is something like:
    (and yes, I'm making these up to illustrate exactly what it is I (personally) am referring to when I ask to see "the data" ):

    Cull 5* R4. Level 55. Sig 100 (5 charges)
    Masteries (for baseline, I guess, whatever)
    vs
    Maestro (act 4, final boss .. whatever his stats are).
    (are they conditional nodes? I forget .. if so, specify which ones are active).

    Light attack: 123 damage (456 crit) (I know, #'s are fake .. I'm demonstrating a template here, not actual data).
    Medium attack: 345 damage (789 crit).

    With 5 stacks of Armor break:
    Light attack: 456 damage (1023 crit)
    Medium attack: 789 damage (1400 crit).

    ... something like that ... in that format ... is what would be useful for us all to see "WOW, that's broken!!".
    or "oh, that's not too bad, here, let me show #'s for xxx champ in similar situation" ..

    or .. whatever ..

    as usual ... (both sides) are speculating grandly with no real facts/evidence to support their "theories" ..

    so let's start with you .. if you are so sure: "so all evidence points to the data being accurate" please, setup an example above, and demonstrate the numbers?

    Please. I'm asking politely, respectly ... in an attempt to understand the numbers.

    thank you.

    and before somebody comes on and challenges me to provide data .. It's not my responsibility to show data for somebody ELSE making a claim.

    Kabam made a claim .. please provide data to support. Thank you.
    GW (and others) have backed up and supported above claim, acclaiming to it's accuracy. Please provide data to support. Thank you.

    I will provide data once I have a baseline to compare to .. once I see the data we're talking about Cull .. then (and only then) can we (the ones in disagreement) go setup a similar test case to demonstrate the opposite.

    simple enough, even a "logician" could figure that one out ;)


    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent.

    Not entirely .. not without presenting the data as I described above, no, they are not being completely transparent.
    Yes, they gave fair heads up that he will change .. Thank you .. that's a great start .. however, it's mostly meaningless without the data to support it.


    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.

    false assumption, as there is yet any evidence to support the "theory" .. (I'm calling it a theory from now on, until actual "proof" shows up to support it .. that seems fair :) )

    You're calling Kabam out on their own data. Good luck with that. Lol.
    He’s also calling you out on your fallacious argument.
    My fallacious argument? No. I'm going on the information provided. As far as this Forum is concerned, their comments are about as close to fact as we can get. We won't be seeing their internal metrics anytime soon. They may or may not post a list of what aspects they looked at and how he scored, but I doubt it. Even that wouldn't suffice for people. They'd just argue they weren't looking at the right things. Anything I've said thus far has been logical and educated based on the facts provided here. By all means, you're free to claim hanging chads.
    There has been no information provided other than the statement that their data shows he is out damaging other to champs. They made a statement about data not provided. Your argument is you believe their data but unless you have personally seen it 🤔 you are only going off the statement given. They have given exactly 2 peices of information.
    1 they believe his damage is too high
    2 they will be reducing his damage
    Unless you have some inside sources feeding you information from the game team what you are arguing is that you agree with their decision since only kabam employees have had access to the data and the sources it was gathered from. I kinda think it would be easier to argue this is a correct move if more information on the data was shared. It would also be nice to get some information from a kabam representative on this thread
    When do they ever provide their data in cases like these? I wasn't aware it was a group decision.
    You said you are going off the information provided. Just curious because it seems like you are going off blind faith. You don't even have a rebuttal to the lack of information just a statement asking when they ever release that. Well that would be what a quarter or more of these posts are asking them to do so they can understand what this data is showing since all but a select few can't seem to understand what makes him so game breaking and haven't been given any responses to this question
    I don't remember them saying game breaking. They said he was doing more than any other higher-end Champ.
    You might consider it blind faith. I don't. The difference between our opinions and theirs is, their opinions are the ones shaping the game, weighted by working on it and having access to the information and knowledge of their own goals. If you want to call trusting that blind faith, have at it. You either believe them, or you don't. I do.
    What you are missing there is while their opinion may shape the game the player base's opinion is what keeps them in business. Alienate your customers and your business doesn't last long. I'm not making threats just stating a simple fact about business. Also one would have to be either very young or very naive to believe all decisions are made for the betterment of the game. They are a for profit business so if they feel a decision would make them money they will do it. I don't fault them for it it's just business. You can blindly follow along believing the company has only your best interests at heart if you choose but I assure you that you are just another credit card number to them.
    On a side note. I did see a vid by a Youtubers who I'm sure was speaking out of frustration but remember. The mods are just doing a job and giving the response they have been told. While some responses and posts from mods are seen has stupid or illogical they are just the bottom of the corporate pyramid. It would be nice to hear from someone in the development or research department on the forum to give real insight into these changes
    If you're saying "We pay the bills.", that's not really an argument for changes that are necessary for balance. Yes, it's important to care about your customers. Yes, people spend. Yes, people matter. If you're saying people have the final say in decisions that affect the game overall based on that fact, and that it takes precedence over the actual data, I'm inclined to disagree.
    TL:DR - We don't control the game.
    In reality the customer base does have the final say. If the company alienates the customer base they have no revenue coming in and the game **** down. Again not calling for a boycott and not saying I'm against game balance. I'm simply replying to your statement and stating that they may want to open a two way conversation with their players since this thread hasn't had s response from a mod or anyone else from kabam since page 3 I think
    Sorry, I disagree. The Players don't have the final say concerning in-house decisions for the betterment of the game. I don't have any objections to people asking for clarification or dialogue. I'm just saying transparency doesn't mean running every decision they make by us for approval.
    Yea they shouldn’t run every decision by us but we should at least know what we’re paying for. People spent a lot of money for disappointment. He’s not even the best champion in the game. Yea he’s good but he’s not so good that he needs to be nerfed. There’s no trust in the champions they put out anymore. There’s always a fear of disappointment. At this point it’s bigger than just this one champion. They’ve screwed people over on their money before and they’re doing it again. Everyone’s sick of it and now they’re finally pushing back.
    What you're paying for is permission to use their game, and they have the right to change it if necessary. It's in the TOS. People keep saying they have a right to what they pay for, but don't stop to read what it is they're actually paying for.
    You are mistaken here. You don't pay to use the game. You pay for access to new champs and resources in the game. It's closer to renting since that right can be taken away. To expand on that analogy if you rent the blue ray of avengers endgame and half way through the store employee comes to your home and takes the blue ray and hands you a VHS saying it's the same movie enjoy. How happy should the customer be?
    You're essentially paying for permission (access) to certain aspects.
    Thats a far cry from paying to play their game and you are gaining faster access to champions by spending not any special aspect of the game itself
    The game itself, no. That's not what I meant. I thought that would have been understood. When you make purchases, you're leasing access to certain aspects, whether that be Champs or Resources. Those aspects, and the game itself, remain property of Kabam. In that, they reserve the right to improve, modify, or change it.
    Again back to basic business 101. Yes they have the right to change, modify or improve any aspect of the game. In doing so they need to keep in mind how the changes and impoverishment will impact the cus
  • DshuDshu Posts: 1,432 ★★★★
    Again back to basic business 101. Yes they have the right to change, modify or improve any aspect of the game. In doing so they need to keep in mind how the changes and impoverishment will impact the customers desire to spend on the game. Again not saying boycott. I'm asking for an open dialogue with kabam representatives on the forums. Mods have been absent since page 3
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 30,852 ★★★★★
    IDoge said:

    Kabam shouldn't have to change these products because they are supposed to be finished. Selling unfinished products is poor business. We have all abode to the ToS since we play the game but still doesn't mean it's fair that they do that.

    It's not only fair, it's necessary to keep the game alive and well. Using the fact that people pay money isn't a way to stop them from making unwanted but necessary decisions for the game. With a game like this, there's no such thing as a perfect release. That's just a fact. It's constantly improving, changing, and growing. It's not a Final Sale product like Console Games. It's a complex system with many interdependent and moving parts.
This discussion has been closed.