All or nothing ai in arena

Any tips on managing it better? I try to bait but often the ai just refuses too use there specials

Comments

  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 11,388
    I've found the AI is less inclined to Bait lately in general. Sometimes it's back-and-forth for a while. Just be patient. As Coat said, they also tend to fire Specials when they're close to down, so don't let them get to the L3 with low Health.
  • Romo790Romo790 Posts: 103
    I've found the AI is less inclined to Bait lately in general. Sometimes it's back-and-forth for a while. Just be patient. As Coat said, they also tend to fire Specials when they're close to down, so don't let them get to the L3 with low Health.

    I almost pulled my hair out trying to Bait a special from the AI in the epic occult lab. The AI was not going to give it up. Eventually I said f this game grandma and quit lol.
  • Philly3974Philly3974 Posts: 254
    I have the same problem and I've noticed that they're more likely to throw a special if you can keep them pinned to the right side of your screen, basically keep them cornered and it should work.
  • Mirage_TurtleMirage_Turtle Posts: 608
    edited October 11
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Try just blocking until they cycle themselves into a special.

    Can you elaborate on this, please? From experience, I have never, ever seen an enemy throw a special when I'm just standing and blocking*; quite the opposite, in fact. I will hold block when I'm trying to push an enemy to an L2 instead of having them throw an L1. This technique was crucial at NYCC during the Venom fight on day 1 when using Morningstar. You wanted Venom to throw an L2 so all his buffs get converted to furies. MS would "borrow" these furies to strengthen her attack and she'd punish with her own L2 to finish him off. To accomplish this, I'd hold block during all of Venom's openings to ensure he'd never throw his L1.

    Empirically, the way to bait specials is just the opposite...you want to stand idle without blocking, evading until the special comes out. When I figured out that doing this was the way to bait specials, Hyperion turned from a nightmare of a fight to just another fight. I used to block when baiting and he'd get to an L3 very often.

    To the OP's question, there are some Arena fights that seem to be All or Nothing...usually these are "Death Squads", but it can happen elsewhere on rare occasion. I've been in fights spending several minutes attempting to bait an L2 only to finally push them to an L3 where they throw it IMMEDIATELY. Very frustrating. My advice is that if you are in the range of getting Death Squads in arena (Rounds 10-16) and are using 4* champs to fight them, bring champs that can either control power (Vision, Dormammu, Magik) or tank L3's (Gwenpool, Iceman, Luke Cage). Or just bring champs that have a high likelihood of killing the enemy before they can get to 3 bars of power (Starlord, Archangel, Stark Spidey).

    *To be clear, I'm not counting Unblockable Special nodes, which behave differently.
  • BeginthEndBeginthEnd Posts: 88
    edited October 11
    @Fhfjghhggggjfhfjg @Philly3974 The best method to ensure AI never lands an s3 (Arena, LoL, Quests) Try to parry start of fight. Press atk until defender is almost against wall. Sp meter will be high, all you have to do is keep dodgeing back- Dexterity is a must- eventually they will fire. Easy Peasy. Rinse, Wash, Repeat.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 1,399
    @Mirage_Turtle LoL, we’re talking about the AoN AI in arenas. Context buddy.
  • Baiting the special in arenas:

    1) don't bring in a champ that will die from a single sp3 (they just know to hold on to that sp3 no matter what you do)
    2) taunt. Helpful with sparky, but it's remarkable the results you get from cursing at your phone.
    3) spam damage over time and medium hits, and knock them on their *** frequently, and don't just stand there holding block.

    Mostly 3 and 1, really.
  • No no no, all you have to do is bait L1’s. Do not push them into L2 as they will most likely hold to L3 from then on. If you bait 1 L1, they will keep doing it. This is especially true for the Thanos/Knag teams
  • CoatHang3r wrote: »
    @Mirage_Turtle LoL, we’re talking about the AoN AI in arenas. Context buddy.

    I caught that. I'm not sure what makes you think I didn't.

    The question still remains (I'm genuinely curious). You said that you hold block until they throw a special. I've NEVER had this work for me. Can you provide a video or some explanation so I can see what I'm doing wrong?
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 1,399
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    @Mirage_Turtle LoL, we’re talking about the AoN AI in arenas. Context buddy.

    I caught that. I'm not sure what makes you think I didn't.

    The question still remains (I'm genuinely curious). You said that you hold block until they throw a special. I've NEVER had this work for me. Can you provide a video or some explanation so I can see what I'm doing wrong?
    What makes me think you didn’t (and still don’t) is that you went on to explain baiting the AI from different areas other than the AoN AI present in arenas between matches 10-19.

    Test if for yourself. I regualry have the AoN AI in arenas throw a special attack into my block. If I think about it when I face that specific AI I will gladly post a video.
  • CoatHang3r wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    @Mirage_Turtle LoL, we’re talking about the AoN AI in arenas. Context buddy.

    I caught that. I'm not sure what makes you think I didn't.

    The question still remains (I'm genuinely curious). You said that you hold block until they throw a special. I've NEVER had this work for me. Can you provide a video or some explanation so I can see what I'm doing wrong?
    What makes me think you didn’t (and still don’t) is that you went on to explain baiting the AI from different areas other than the AoN AI present in arenas between matches 10-19.

    Test if for yourself. I regualry have the AoN AI in arenas throw a special attack into my block. If I think about it when I face that specific AI I will gladly post a video.

    My post specifically mentions the arena fights where "AoN Death Squads" will be found (10-16) and offers some suggested champs that will help with them. I offered my experience with baiting specials both in arenas and other areas of the game (which tend to be pretty consistent throughout) in an attempt to help the OP. I read your comment and asked about it when the blocking portion flies in the face of the mechanics I've come to learn about this game and asked politely for you to expand on it.

    I'm not sure what I said that deserved the snarky responses, but nonetheless I look forward to the video.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 1,399
    edited October 11
    @Mirage_Turtle Here’s a video, not the specific AI as im well into the streak at this point, you can play it back in slow mo and see that before KG finishes his heavy animation Magik enter block and he throws a special at it. You can now say you have seen the AI throw a sepcial into a block.

  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 1,399
    @Mirage_Turtle Dunno if you are trolling or what but reread your first paragraph where you use NYCC AI as a reference.
  • CoatHang3r wrote: »
    @Mirage_Turtle Dunno if you are trolling or what but reread your first paragraph where you use NYCC AI as a reference.

    I'm not trolling. The NYCC bit was a specific example to illustrate the way I've known the system to work. I could have used any random arena champ who's L2 is preferable to the L1 to suggest a reason someone might need to push an enemy to an L2 over an L1, but the NYCC one is timely considering how many people were there, the recent update to Venom, and it gives a very specific reason why the L2 is so preferable. I didn't get into the arena portion until the 3rd paragraph. I'm not sure which portion prompted the surly responses. I gently asked for an explanation and even attempted to be polite by throwing in a "please".

    In any case, I appreciate the video. I've really never seen that before. I tend to plan around Death Squads in arena, so I rarely see them and likely won't get a chance to test this, but I will keep it in mind and try it out if an enemy gets a little stubborn.

  • DTMelodicMetalDTMelodicMetal Posts: 1,669
    Another annoying arena AI feature is when the AI only moves forward. This is especially common with Nightcrawler. Not nearly as lame as all or nothing but lame nonetheless.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 1,399
    edited October 11
    @Mirage_Turtle Have another, this is a blantant example.

    Your response to me does not cover the specific AI up for discussion which i why i laugh and point out you ignored the context which appears to be done simply in an effort to start an argument as your last paragraph ignore’s my statement you argued with and actually adresses arena for the first time (rather than NYCC BtB AI). Your ego is preventing your ability to comprehend, eyes wide shut.

    I see you’re still relying on AI outside of the specific AI being referenced in this thread. There are different AIs employed in various parts of the game. Again you cannot compare NYCC BtB AI to arena “AoN AI”.

  • CoatHang3r wrote: »
    @Mirage_Turtle Have another, this is a blantant example.

    Your response to me does not cover the specific AI up for discussion which i why i laugh and point out you ignored the context which appears to be done simply in an effort to start an argument as your last paragraph ignore’s my statement you argued with and actually adresses arena for the first time (rather than NYCC BtB AI). Your ego is preventing your ability to comprehend, eyes wide shut.

    I see you’re still relying on AI outside of the specific AI being referenced in this thread. There are different AIs employed in various parts of the game. Again you cannot compare NYCC BtB AI to arena “AoN AI”.

    My man, I wasn't attempting to start an argument. I'm still not.

    You stated that something happens in the game that I had never seen before. I didn't say I didn't believe you. Not everyone who asks for clarification is calling you out; some just wish to learn more. I was curious to see it, so I politely asked for a video. You provided it. I said that I appreciated the effort. I now have something new to try in the game. As for ego, I'm not sure where that's coming from. I was trying to be helpful to the OP and trying to learn something at the same time.

    I can see that for whatever reason you don't like me, so I'll do my best not to ask you anything here anymore. I wish you the best.
  • MikeHockMikeHock Posts: 1,065
    Bring power drainers/power lockers or heroes who can withstand L3 for those difficult “death matches”.

    Hawkeye, Dormmamu, magik, Rogue , Iceman, gwenpool, etc.....
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 4,872
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    What I’ve noted from that AI is that they like to use specials after they've been knocked down, is near the last 20% of life or to attack your block.

    Try knocking them down with a heavy or special; or just holding block. When they are near 20% health try to finish them off with a combo into a special.

    Try just blocking until they cycle themselves into a special.

    In my experience, all of these things are true, but not all the time. There isn't a special "arena AI" that is different from the AI in other parts of the game, but a long while ago Kabam made a change to the way the AI works where I believe they added additional tuning parameters to the AI profile. Think of the AI as one "brain" that gets loaded with "preferences." They have a preference for blocking, a preference for throwing special one, etc. These preferences are I believe what we are modifying when we use something like Sparky's taunt.

    What makes the AI behavior in the arena seem unique is that in the arena the game "randomizes" these profiles far more than in other parts of the game where they are more hand tweaked to correspond to difficulty levels. So we can see stuff we don't ordinarily see far more often. For example, I think some of the "all or nothing" behavior that players see is actually a huge anti-preference for special two. For such a critter, if you push them past sp1 thinking you can still bait sp2, you could find yourself in a pseudo-AoN. You don't normally see that in other parts of the game, but I've seen cases where an arena critter will easily take the bait on SP1, but simply refuse to throw SP2.

    Another thing is that there is a dynamic element to the AI profiles. The longer you don't attack, or the longer you *do* keep attacking, or the longer you do or do not throw specials can all affect the future behavior of the critters. I've seen nodes that appeared to be all or nothing, and I just kept blocking and evading to keep the match alive, and then either they eventually throw a special or I push them to SP3 and they throw it. Once they do, they often change behavior and start throwing specials normally, as if the act of throwing a special encouraged them to do it even more.

    Addressing that topic directly, I've seen the AI throw specials into block. However, I do know the AI is "reluctant" to do so. I've seen the AI literally stand there and bleed to death while holding two bars of power, because I am standing and holding block. I think there is a range aspect to this: how far away you are affects the critter behavior to some degree and can influence if and when they attempt specials when you're blocking.

    I believe that almost anything we see in the arena *can* happen elsewhere. It is just that the probability of seeing it can be extremely low if the particular profile you are facing makes the odds of that behavior happening very low. In fact, I don't believe there is a true "AoN" arena behavior. I think it is just that sometimes you're facing a champion that has a 1% chance to throw special 1 and a 2% chance to throw special 2, and almost no one chooses to draw out the fight long enough to see them throw those.

    Also you can survive alot of s3s unless youre champ is significantly weaker. Dont make the mistake most do and dash back into the corner trying to get a special out of them while losing health lettting the special kill you once they do use it.

    This is a very common mistake. Especially for power gaining champions. If a champion has power gain, their special three attack tends to be weaker than average. For some reason, I see a lot of people afraid to take a special three from Hyperion, because they think all his specials hit super hard. But unless he has furies stacked or a lot of cosmic charges, his SP3 is much weaker than you'd normally expect from the average champion. But this is so ingrained in some people's minds than the last time I said this specifically about Hyperion, three separate players replied to laugh at the notion, even though this is something you can trivially check in-game.
  • realiTicrealiTic Posts: 79
    edited October 11
    Corner the opponent. Parry and heavy. Do it enough time the oppoent will bust out a special.
    If the opponent is blocking constantly or just standing, just do a heavy. They will eventually hit you with a special but this will get the specials to be baitable.
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