**WINTER OF WOE - BONUS OBJECTIVE POINT**
As previously announced, the team will be distributing an additional point toward milestones to anyone who completed the Absorbing Man fight in the first step of the Winter of Woe.
This point will be distributed at a later time as it requires the team to pull and analyze data.
The timeline has not been set, but work has started.
There is currently an issue where some Alliances are are unable to find a match in Alliance Wars, or are receiving Byes without getting the benefits of the Win. We will be adjusting the Season Points of the Alliances that are affected within the coming weeks, and will be working to compensate them for their missed Per War rewards as well.

Additionally, we are working to address an issue where new Members of an Alliance are unable to place Defenders for the next War after joining. We are working to address this, but it will require a future update.

Description in Sabertooth's ability

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Shouldn't the ability read "anywhere from 3 to 6" or "between 2 to 7" rather than "between 3 to 6".
Between 3 to 6 technically means 4 or 5.
@moderators
«13

Comments

  • DanveerKarnaDanveerKarna Posts: 113
    "Between 3 and 6" is only ambiguous in the strictest sense of the words. If someone tells you to pick a number between 1 and 10, most people don't feel that they are limited to numbers 2-9.

    Sure, they could put "Between 3 and 6, inclusive" in the description to appease the nitpickers of the world, but I personally don't see a problem with how it's written.

    That's why I mentioned "anywhere from". But I do agree with nitpickers part lol
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 2,262 ★★★★★
    "Between 3 and 6" is only ambiguous in the strictest sense of the words. If someone tells you to pick a number between 1 and 10, most people don't feel that they are limited to numbers 2-9.

    Sure, they could put "Between 3 and 6, inclusive" in the description to appease the nitpickers of the world, but I personally don't see a problem with how it's written.
    BETWEEN 3 AND 6 has a very clear and consistent meaning, and that meaning would be 4 or 5. At least 3 and up to 6 would be a better way to put it. Just because you can figure out what they meant by playing the game and looking doesn't make it correct. They should fix errors, especially when they are so easily addressed.
  • Eb0ny-O-M4wEb0ny-O-M4w Posts: 13,734 ★★★★★
    Between 3 and 6 includes 3 and 6 already ...
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    edited February 2019
    Between you and me it’s fine. Wait was i just talking to no one?
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 2,262 ★★★★★
    Between 3 and 6 includes 3 and 6 already ...
    It literally doesn’t. English is a mess.

  • gohard123gohard123 Posts: 996 ★★★
    edited February 2019
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Between you and me it’s fine. Wait was i just talking to no one?

    lol,
  • Eb0ny-O-M4wEb0ny-O-M4w Posts: 13,734 ★★★★★
    Between 3 and 6 includes 3 and 6 already ...
    It literally doesn’t. English is a mess.

    It really does, unless it's specified somewhere than those numkbers aren't included
  • Between 3 and 6 includes 3 and 6 already ...
    It literally doesn’t. English is a mess.

    It really does, unless it's specified somewhere than those numkbers aren't included

    It literally doesn't. The answer to the question "is three between three and six" is no.

    it is a common enough mistake that people tend to look for context. "Pick a number between three and six" is generally interpreted to mean "pick a number within the range of three through six inclusively." On the other hand, "name all the numbers between three and six" is generally interpreted to be "four and five."

    In other words, in common English the word "between" doesn't have an unambiguous meaning outside of context. But its literal meaning generally doesn't include the fenceposts.
  • CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Between you and me it’s fine. Wait was i just talking to no one?

    Actually, the phrase "between you and me [it's fine]" is meant to convey the notion that given no one else's consideration, the following thing is true. In other words, it is meant to convey the notion that "between you and me" no one else is relevant.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    edited February 2019
    Between 3 and 6 includes 3 and 6 already ...

    No it does not. The mathematical representation of this is 3<x<6, not 3<=x<=6. I remember back in college there was a programming class that a had this as a question, so many people were upset they got this wrong.
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Between you and me it’s fine. Wait was i just talking to no one?

    There is a difference in the preposition version of the word and an adverb version of it.




  • Eb0ny-O-M4wEb0ny-O-M4w Posts: 13,734 ★★★★★
    It must be specific to english then, cause translated to other languages does include those number's. I know what you're talking about and still I can say that they are included, simply because how it's worded. It doesn't exclude those numbers, is a close interval
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,558 Guardian
    edited February 2019
    Lormif wrote: »
    There is a difference in the preposition version of the word and an adverb version of it.

    Specifically in the case of the word "between" it is most commonly used to denote the idea of correspondence or choice when used as a preposition and the idea of interval when used as an adverb.

    In other words, "Void's intimidating presence ability chooses between agility debuff, fatigue debuff, and petrify debuff to inflict on the opponent." In this case, "between" means "from among."

    "Sabretooth randomly receives between three and six persistent charges." In this case, "between" means "from within the interval of."
  • MjolinarMjolinar Posts: 157 ★★
    I don’t know what is more annoying: RDT requests, nerf brand new content/champs requests, or this rabbit hole of trying to get every description of every champ or ability that may be a bit ambiguous changed.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    It must be specific to english then, cause translated to other languages does include those number's. I know what you're talking about and still I can say that they are included, simply because how it's worded. It doesn't exclude those numbers, is a close interval

    When you describe an open interval you say "it is all the numbers BETWEEN x and y", when you describe a closed interval you say "it is all the numbers FROM x to y", or "all numbers in between x and y including x and y". You have to clarify what you mean. I am not sure of the word between in other languages, but could be a translation error when it is converted. I think it is more that it can be confusing because the preposition version of the word is inclusive
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 2,262 ★★★★★
    Mjolinar wrote: »
    I don’t know what is more annoying: RDT requests, nerf brand new content/champs requests, or this rabbit hole of trying to get every description of every champ or ability that may be a bit ambiguous changed.

    This is something that wouldn’t be a thing for us to request if a proofreader took a look at abilities and edited for clarity and accuracy before they went live.
  • It must be specific to english then, cause translated to other languages does include those number's. I know what you're talking about and still I can say that they are included, simply because how it's worded. It doesn't exclude those numbers, is a close interval

    That's interesting. I'm not fluent in any language other than English, but I do know that in Japanese there's no direct translation of the word "between" unambiguously. You actually have to know which meaning you're associating with that word before you can translate it, which means it isn't fair to say that the phrase "between three and six" always means inclusive in that language. How you translate it determines whether it actually is inclusive or not. Especially because, and I'm far from an expert, but the notion of "inside" as in within or containing a range is not precisely the same in the two languages in terms of connotation.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Between you and me it’s fine. Wait was i just talking to no one?

    Actually, the phrase "between you and me [it's fine]" is meant to convey the notion that given no one else's consideration, the following thing is true. In other words, it is meant to convey the notion that "between you and me" no one else is relevant.
    There is the answer, between is used as a propostion in the decription and not an adverb, easily evidenced by the omission of in as in “in between 3 and 6”.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Between you and me it’s fine. Wait was i just talking to no one?

    Actually, the phrase "between you and me [it's fine]" is meant to convey the notion that given no one else's consideration, the following thing is true. In other words, it is meant to convey the notion that "between you and me" no one else is relevant.
    There is the answer, between is used as a propostion in the decription and not an adverb, easily evidenced by the omission of in as in “in between 3 and 6”.

    "receive" is what it is quantifying, which is a verb, making it an adverb.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    edited February 2019
    Mjolinar wrote: »
    I don’t know what is more annoying: RDT requests, nerf brand new content/champs requests, or this rabbit hole of trying to get every description of every champ or ability that may be a bit ambiguous changed.

    This is something that wouldn’t be a thing for us to request if a proofreader took a look at abilities and edited for clarity and accuracy before they went live.
    It’s self evident people understood the meaning as this is the first time Sabretooth’s decriptions have been challenged since he’s been in the contest for a year and crystals for 9 months. It’s pedant outrage culture malarky. Not saying that’s a bad thing cause it is funny/trolly as all hell.

    Now if it was 4 or 5 they would’ve wrote that, common sense tells people it’s 3 to 6 charges. It requires a serious/willing reasoning failure to think otherwise and really people are fine without the lowest common denominator being catered to.
  • Mjolinar wrote: »
    I don’t know what is more annoying: RDT requests, nerf brand new content/champs requests, or this rabbit hole of trying to get every description of every champ or ability that may be a bit ambiguous changed.

    This may be a small point, but I don't think it is wasted effort to discuss what the text descriptions actually mean, because if the players can't agree on what they mean, asking Kabam to document things "better" is a meaningless exercise.

    In context I don't think this description is confusing or misleading, because I think everyone knows that no one says "between three and six" when they mean "four or five."

    But that's because the range itself is small enough that it overrides what the meaning of the words actually is. Relying on context to let people guess what the correct meaning is can be a crutch that backfires when the situation isn't so clear. For example, I once saw a game that made this mistake: to generate a percentage (as in, out of 100) it generated a random number from "zero to 100." Is that inclusive or exclusive? The game generated those numbers inclusively. But the correct thing to do is neither of those: that range should be inclusive of zero but exclusive of one. When you generate all numbers from zero through 100 inclusively you're actually generating one hundred and one possibilities. And that's subtly broken.

    Precision is a nit-pick, until it is not. We can't ask Kabam to document things better, unless we also mutually agree to only hold them to what the text means in standard English. Not in colloquial conversational English where everyone has a different opinion on the meaning of words. We all know what the Sabretooth text is trying to say, but we should still ask Kabam to correct it to proper English, not because it helps Sabretooth but because doing that consistently eventually helps the stuff that is more ambiguous. Or for that matter, currently unknown.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Mjolinar wrote: »
    I don’t know what is more annoying: RDT requests, nerf brand new content/champs requests, or this rabbit hole of trying to get every description of every champ or ability that may be a bit ambiguous changed.

    This is something that wouldn’t be a thing for us to request if a proofreader took a look at abilities and edited for clarity and accuracy before they went live.
    It’s self evident people understood the meaning as this is the first time Sabretooth’s decriptions have been challenged since he’s been in the contest for a year and crystals for 9 months. It’s pedant outrage culture malarky. Not saying that’s a bad thing cause it is funny/trolly as all hell.

    Now if it was 4 or 5 they would’ve wrote that, common sense tells people it’s 3 to 6 charges. It requires a serious/willing reasoning failure to think otherwise and really people are fine without the lowest common denominator being catered to.

    Because it is only 4 numbers it is reasonable to assume that they meant to include all numbers, because otherwise they would have just made a simpler or statement. On the other hand if the number range is larger that assumption goes away.

    That being said it is not unreasonable to want something that is literally incorrect to be fixed. This mentality has lead to the colloquial use of the word "literally" of "figuratively" to be added to the dictionary and that just makes harder for us all to communicate clearly.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    Mjolinar wrote: »
    I don’t know what is more annoying: RDT requests, nerf brand new content/champs requests, or this rabbit hole of trying to get every description of every champ or ability that may be a bit ambiguous changed.

    This may be a small point, but I don't think it is wasted effort to discuss what the text descriptions actually mean, because if the players can't agree on what they mean, asking Kabam to document things "better" is a meaningless exercise.

    In context I don't think this description is confusing or misleading, because I think everyone knows that no one says "between three and six" when they mean "four or five."

    But that's because the range itself is small enough that it overrides what the meaning of the words actually is. Relying on context to let people guess what the correct meaning is can be a crutch that backfires when the situation isn't so clear. For example, I once saw a game that made this mistake: to generate a percentage (as in, out of 100) it generated a random number from "zero to 100." Is that inclusive or exclusive? The game generated those numbers inclusively. But the correct thing to do is neither of those: that range should be inclusive of zero but exclusive of one. When you generate all numbers from zero through 100 inclusively you're actually generating one hundred and one possibilities. And that's subtly broken.

    Precision is a nit-pick, until it is not. We can't ask Kabam to document things better, unless we also mutually agree to only hold them to what the text means in standard English. Not in colloquial conversational English where everyone has a different opinion on the meaning of words. We all know what the Sabretooth text is trying to say, but we should still ask Kabam to correct it to proper English, not because it helps Sabretooth but because doing that consistently eventually helps the stuff that is more ambiguous. Or for that matter, currently unknown.

    dude it is like you and I are on the same wavelength.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    Lormif wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Mjolinar wrote: »
    I don’t know what is more annoying: RDT requests, nerf brand new content/champs requests, or this rabbit hole of trying to get every description of every champ or ability that may be a bit ambiguous changed.

    This is something that wouldn’t be a thing for us to request if a proofreader took a look at abilities and edited for clarity and accuracy before they went live.
    It’s self evident people understood the meaning as this is the first time Sabretooth’s decriptions have been challenged since he’s been in the contest for a year and crystals for 9 months. It’s pedant outrage culture malarky. Not saying that’s a bad thing cause it is funny/trolly as all hell.

    Now if it was 4 or 5 they would’ve wrote that, common sense tells people it’s 3 to 6 charges. It requires a serious/willing reasoning failure to think otherwise and really people are fine without the lowest common denominator being catered to.

    Because it is only 4 numbers it is reasonable to assume that they meant to include all numbers, because otherwise they would have just made a simpler or statement. On the other hand if the number range is larger that assumption goes away.

    That being said it is not unreasonable to want something that is literally incorrect to be fixed. This mentality has lead to the colloquial use of the word "literally" of "figuratively" to be added to the dictionary and that just makes harder for us all to communicate clearly.
    Literally the word would need to be inbetween to make the arguments stand up as that is the term used to exclude the end points from a range of options. Between covers the end points in nearly every common usage of the word, hell it’s even in the dictionary description.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    edited February 2019
    Lormif wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Between you and me it’s fine. Wait was i just talking to no one?

    Actually, the phrase "between you and me [it's fine]" is meant to convey the notion that given no one else's consideration, the following thing is true. In other words, it is meant to convey the notion that "between you and me" no one else is relevant.
    There is the answer, between is used as a propostion in the decription and not an adverb, easily evidenced by the omission of in as in “in between 3 and 6”.

    "receive" is what it is quantifying, which is a verb, making it an adverb.
    Weird because we’re talking about how between is quantifying “3 and 6”.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    edited February 2019
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Lormif wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Mjolinar wrote: »
    I don’t know what is more annoying: RDT requests, nerf brand new content/champs requests, or this rabbit hole of trying to get every description of every champ or ability that may be a bit ambiguous changed.

    This is something that wouldn’t be a thing for us to request if a proofreader took a look at abilities and edited for clarity and accuracy before they went live.
    It’s self evident people understood the meaning as this is the first time Sabretooth’s decriptions have been challenged since he’s been in the contest for a year and crystals for 9 months. It’s pedant outrage culture malarky. Not saying that’s a bad thing cause it is funny/trolly as all hell.

    Now if it was 4 or 5 they would’ve wrote that, common sense tells people it’s 3 to 6 charges. It requires a serious/willing reasoning failure to think otherwise and really people are fine without the lowest common denominator being catered to.

    Because it is only 4 numbers it is reasonable to assume that they meant to include all numbers, because otherwise they would have just made a simpler or statement. On the other hand if the number range is larger that assumption goes away.

    That being said it is not unreasonable to want something that is literally incorrect to be fixed. This mentality has lead to the colloquial use of the word "literally" of "figuratively" to be added to the dictionary and that just makes harder for us all to communicate clearly.
    Literally the word would need to be inbetween to make the arguments stand up as that is the term used to exclude the end points from a range of options. Between covers the end points in nearly every common usage of the word, hell it’s even in the dictionary description.

    It is in the dictionary definition of the word as a PREPOSITION not as an ADVERB...

    between
    PREPOSITION
    1 At, into, or across the space separating (two objects or regions)

    ADVERB
    1 In or along the space separating two objects or regions.

    Preposition, inclusive, adverb exclusive
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Lormif wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Between you and me it’s fine. Wait was i just talking to no one?

    Actually, the phrase "between you and me [it's fine]" is meant to convey the notion that given no one else's consideration, the following thing is true. In other words, it is meant to convey the notion that "between you and me" no one else is relevant.
    There is the answer, between is used as a propostion in the decription and not an adverb, easily evidenced by the omission of in as in “in between 3 and 6”.

    "receive" is what it is quantifying, which is a verb, making it an adverb.
    Weird because we’re talking about how between is quantifying “3 and 6”.

    That is the quantification, it is not a noun or a pronoun, which is what a preposition expresses the relationship to.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    So if a train runs between New York and Maine then it doesn’t include New York or Maine, got it, wait...
  • Marri_2Marri_2 Posts: 577 ★★★
    edited February 2019
    It must be specific to english then, cause translated to other languages does include those number's. I know what you're talking about and still I can say that they are included, simply because how it's worded. It doesn't exclude those numbers, is a close interval

    Nope, dunno what language you speak but I speak 4 languages and it's the same in all 4...does not include the outer limits. English, Dutch, German, French...so even languages from different families treat this the same.

    I feel this is one of the word crime in the category:

    https://youtu.be/8Gv0H-vPoDc
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    So if a train runs between New York and Maine then it doesn’t include New York or Maine, got it, wait...

    That is a preposition, it describes a relationship between 2 nouns or pronouns, therefore it is inclusive.
This discussion has been closed.