Summoner Sigil - Discussion Thread

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  • TheTalentsTheTalents Posts: 557 ★★★
    I think if they made the black market iso inventory trades infinite especially with the 11k featured crystal it would be worth it but I will with hold my 9.99 for now. Hopefully with every month they add and subtract what is working and what is not. 10 bucks is a fair price for a monthly subscription overall though.
  • Jemster519Jemster519 Posts: 184

    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    They have to make money somehow to fund the game. Everything can’t be free.
    They make money from the play store and the apple app store before they even make money from their offers. How much they receive is based on number of people logging in and the amount of time. It the concessions they receive. Most of the money made goes towards their profit margin and can be used to work on developing other games.
  • Jemster519Jemster519 Posts: 184
    This is not geared to end game players. Unless something changes in the future, I don't see the benefit of this subscription.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 4,957 ★★★★★

    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    They have to make money somehow to fund the game. Everything can’t be free.
    They make money from the play store and the apple app store before they even make money from their offers. How much they receive is based on number of people logging in and the amount of time. It the concessions they receive. Most of the money made goes towards their profit margin and can be used to work on developing other games.
    Sorry? Can you elaborate on this? The only money they make is from the offers. Apple does not pay them just to have the app there or free downloads or how many people logged in. The people claim this typically base it on a faulty understanding of "revenue per download" or "revenue per user", that revenue part is from their in game sales.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 8,919 Guardian
    Markjv81 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Markjv81 said:

    So i just heard theres a free trial month of the sigil and i didn't know it was free....i hit the renew thing for $10 and i just wasted $10 for something that was already free.

    i want my money back or atleast give me compensate of 2 months +
    cause if i would of known the sigil was free for first month i wouldn't of bought it.

    You heard wrong, it’s a weeks trial. “I can’t read, compensate me!” Lol
    In fairness, I don't recall seeing anything in the game that told the players there was a free trial, and I looked for it. The pop up seemed to imply that if you wanted the benefits of the program you'd have to buy it, even though the button said "renew." It seemed odd to me that Kabam wouldn't want to hype the free trial of the Sigil within the game itself right at the start. In any case I can understand some confusion here on the part of some players.

    I am guessing that the pop up panel was designed to account for the fact that a week from now players that start playing will see the same panel that we currently see but won't be getting the free week so the panel can't advertise the free week "baked in" and they didn't want to make two different panels.
    The fact that you got it without paying and it has a 7 day countdown clock on it should have been enough info.
    There's no way to know that in the actual game without first exiting the panel with the renew offer, so there's no way for those facts to prevent some initial confusion on the part of players.
  • Jemster519Jemster519 Posts: 184
    Lormif said:

    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    They have to make money somehow to fund the game. Everything can’t be free.
    They make money from the play store and the apple app store before they even make money from their offers. How much they receive is based on number of people logging in and the amount of time. It the concessions they receive. Most of the money made goes towards their profit margin and can be used to work on developing other games.
    Sorry? Can you elaborate on this? The only money they make is from the offers. Apple does not pay them just to have the app there or free downloads or how many people logged in. The people claim this typically base it on a faulty understanding of "revenue per download" or "revenue per user", that revenue part is from their in game sales.
    Why do you think it is important for them to have the daily logins. All access to the app is tracked. Why do you think so many companies are pushing people to download an app. There is a much bigger picture. The are so many companies that produce and mange these apps with no revenue to be gain from the app.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 8,919 Guardian

    I have a problem with the increased inventory capacity. I had 12 T4b in overflow with varying expiry dates. What I would usually do is use a few that were expiring soon to rank up a low 5* if I didn't have a R4/R5 option and keep my overflow controlled. Now when the sigil runs out next week and I use a couple of the T4b in my inventory they won't be replaced by a couple from my overflow. I have to use up all 9, plus the 3 in overflow, within 37 days or I will lose them.

    I don't see what the problem is here. You are in no way in worse shape after the Sigil expires than you would have been if the SIgil was never offered to you. The four extra T4B that are now in your inventory and will be over the cap after the Sigil expires are just T4B you would have had to burn anyway. The only difference is that when the Sigil expires those T4B would be above the soft cap in inventory rather than having to be used.

    Just to simplify, suppose you had 15 T4B in inventory and 12 in overflow, and the 12 in overflow were going to expire on September 1, 2, 3, ... up to 12. One per day, just so the example is simple. If you never got the Sigil, then at some point you would have to burn at least one T4B by September 1, and at least two by September 2, and so on. With the Sigil, now you have 19 in inventory and 8 in overflow with expiration dates of September 5, 6, ... 12. Without the Sigil you would have had to burn T4B by September 1, but now even after the Sigil expires you don't have to burn T4B until September 5, when the closest T4B in overflow expires. By September 5 you still have to burn at least 5 T4Bs, because you need to burn the four you have over the soft cap, and then one more to burn the expiring T4B in overflow stash.

    So in the long run, the temporary Sigil inventory doesn't change how much you have to burn, you still have to burn the same amount either way. But it *delays* when you have to burn them by a certain amount of time, because the first four that you would ordinarily have to burn, you don't have to burn.
  • JadedJaded Posts: 1,843 ★★★★

    This is not geared to end game players. Unless something changes in the future, I don't see the benefit of this subscription.

    I have everything completed and plan to keep the subscription going.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 8,919 Guardian

    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    They have to make money somehow to fund the game. Everything can’t be free.
    They make money from the play store and the apple app store before they even make money from their offers. How much they receive is based on number of people logging in and the amount of time. It the concessions they receive. Most of the money made goes towards their profit margin and can be used to work on developing other games.
    I don't know why you think this, but this is completely false. I think you're being confused by industry numbers that quote things like revenue per user, because those are averages used to roughly gauge game performance. Apple does not pay app developers for downloads or users, and neither does Google.

    Not only does Apple not pay game developers for the number of people logging in and the amount of time they play, Apple does not even know how many people log into your game and how many minutes they play. Apple doesn't track this kind of information by explicit policy.

    It is not like this is difficult information to find. All the information regarding Apple's and Google's app developer programs, including how app developers are compensated, are publicly available on both company's developer web sites.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 8,919 Guardian

    Lormif said:

    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    They have to make money somehow to fund the game. Everything can’t be free.
    They make money from the play store and the apple app store before they even make money from their offers. How much they receive is based on number of people logging in and the amount of time. It the concessions they receive. Most of the money made goes towards their profit margin and can be used to work on developing other games.
    Sorry? Can you elaborate on this? The only money they make is from the offers. Apple does not pay them just to have the app there or free downloads or how many people logged in. The people claim this typically base it on a faulty understanding of "revenue per download" or "revenue per user", that revenue part is from their in game sales.
    Why do you think it is important for them to have the daily logins. All access to the app is tracked. Why do you think so many companies are pushing people to download an app. There is a much bigger picture. The are so many companies that produce and mange these apps with no revenue to be gain from the app.
    This is why people shouldn't guess when they don't know. There are lots of publicly available documents and articles discussing things like how the app economy works. Google is your friend. Here's one: https://thinkmobiles.com/blog/how-do-free-apps-make-money/

    It is an article that comes up when you search for "how do free apps make money" that is titled How do free apps make money. In fact the first *seven* hits I saw in Google were articles titled "How do free apps make money." Exactly zero mention "get paid by Apple and Google for downloads and users" because that's not a thing Apple or Google does.

    The only free apps that make money through usage are those that use in-app advertisements, because that's how advertisers generally pay for ads (by views or impressions).
  • LormifLormif Posts: 4,957 ★★★★★

    Lormif said:

    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    They have to make money somehow to fund the game. Everything can’t be free.
    They make money from the play store and the apple app store before they even make money from their offers. How much they receive is based on number of people logging in and the amount of time. It the concessions they receive. Most of the money made goes towards their profit margin and can be used to work on developing other games.
    Sorry? Can you elaborate on this? The only money they make is from the offers. Apple does not pay them just to have the app there or free downloads or how many people logged in. The people claim this typically base it on a faulty understanding of "revenue per download" or "revenue per user", that revenue part is from their in game sales.
    Why do you think it is important for them to have the daily logins. All access to the app is tracked. Why do you think so many companies are pushing people to download an app. There is a much bigger picture. The are so many companies that produce and mange these apps with no revenue to be gain from the app.
    They care about daily logins because the more daily logins the more gamers pay for the deals on average. And I have seen none that have absolutely zero revenue from the app, there are lots of ways to monitize the app, ads, in game offers. Apple and Google are not paying the apps develoeprs for these things, apple and google will even tell you that...
  • TheBlueBotTheBlueBot Posts: 18
    Has there been any progress on hopefully helping all of us who got the wrong crystal a swap for the right one? @Kabam Miike
  • tkhan08tkhan08 Posts: 117
    At current price, I see a little value to what is offered. If it goes further up, it will be useless for mid tier like me.
  • Crimson8399Crimson8399 Posts: 248 ★★
    Why does it show T5 Basic in the thumbnail in the unit store? There's no T5 basic that I can see associated with the sigil.
  • So I have purchase some items on the Black Market Store for and they are in cool down. But if I sign up for a Sigil today, would those cooldown will reset? Or will it stay the same? Like I'm not entirely sure. @Kabam Miike or anyone. haha
  • Drummer16Drummer16 Posts: 289
    My issue with this is that it's turning the game into like a WoW subscription model to get QOL improvements, and the fact that they go away once you stop paying is just silly. While there are F2P players and Whales out there, the VAST majority is somewhere in the middle where they spend once in a while. I am not going to pay 10$+ a month for a few perks and QOL that should be in the game by now anyways such as:

    1) energy timers should be reduced. there is so much content in the game now that it would be nice to actually be able to play it quicker.
    2) inventory space has sort of been a joke since the game creation. we are all pulling 4/5*s constantly and duping them forever now that selling ISO is like a part time job. people end up just not opening crystals for catalysts and heroes to work around this anyways. why not give everyone more space???
    3) gold isnt an issue for me but i know when rapidly progressing, it really is an issue. we should have gold and halls of healing the week after dungeons end each month or something consistent like that instead of paying for one gold quest.
    4) trading up items like 3 lvl 1 health potions for a lvl 2, trading up ISO, trading up boosts (e.g. 3 10% boosts for 1 20% champ boost), and so on should be part of the game, not some paywall like this. this is somewhat of an fighting/ MMORPG and yet it doesn't incorporate any of the elements like these that typical games do into it.

    It's cool you guys are trying out new things, but this isnt something that you can really remove from the game if it ends up being a flop without making either the people who subscribed or the people who didnt subscribe angry. that is why you are getting so much backlash already.
  • EggfushenEggfushen Posts: 3

    Has there been any progress on hopefully helping all of us who got the wrong crystal a swap for the right one? @Kabam Miike

    I really hope this doesn’t just ignored and forgotten about. @“Kabam Miike”
  • LormifLormif Posts: 4,957 ★★★★★
    Drummer16 said:

    My issue with this is that it's turning the game into like a WoW subscription model to get QOL improvements, and the fact that they go away once you stop paying is just silly. While there are F2P players and Whales out there, the VAST majority is somewhere in the middle where they spend once in a while. I am not going to pay 10$+ a month for a few perks and QOL that should be in the game by now anyways such as:

    1) energy timers should be reduced. there is so much content in the game now that it would be nice to actually be able to play it quicker.
    2) inventory space has sort of been a joke since the game creation. we are all pulling 4/5*s constantly and duping them forever now that selling ISO is like a part time job. people end up just not opening crystals for catalysts and heroes to work around this anyways. why not give everyone more space???
    3) gold isnt an issue for me but i know when rapidly progressing, it really is an issue. we should have gold and halls of healing the week after dungeons end each month or something consistent like that instead of paying for one gold quest.
    4) trading up items like 3 lvl 1 health potions for a lvl 2, trading up ISO, trading up boosts (e.g. 3 10% boosts for 1 20% champ boost), and so on should be part of the game, not some paywall like this. this is somewhat of an fighting/ MMORPG and yet it doesn't incorporate any of the elements like these that typical games do into it.

    It's cool you guys are trying out new things, but this isnt something that you can really remove from the game if it ends up being a flop without making either the people who subscribed or the people who didnt subscribe angry. that is why you are getting so much backlash already.

    So what should they give, everything other than QOL is a competitive advantage.....
  • This is the first addition to the game that makes me considering spending real money, especially since it’s not auto renewal and we could choose to opt out next month. The perks are great especially the gold given and inventory space. Pretty easy to clear the goals for those bonuses too.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Posts: 2,612 ★★★★★
    Gutz42 said:

    Webby72 said:

    For anyone who feels that the outrage response is unnecessary, please do consider that this is essentially barring f2p players from competing at high levels by offering more items, energy, cheaper items etc. To paying players. I’m not going to purchase this out of principle not because I don’t spend on this game, because I do spend. Just consider that this is highly unfair to f2p players. Bonus energy, or cheaper items alone would be more palatable imo

    This is exactly right... they have been consistently kicking their f2p/low budget players while we are already done over the past year just sucking up to their p2w players and well screw the rest of us... I dont know why they dont just post up a pop up window when we log in that says if your not a whale then ummm GTFO!
    Honestly what actual competetive advantage do you feel this gives anyone?
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 8,919 Guardian
    Drummer16 said:

    My issue with this is that it's turning the game into like a WoW subscription model to get QOL improvements, and the fact that they go away once you stop paying is just silly. While there are F2P players and Whales out there, the VAST majority is somewhere in the middle where they spend once in a while. I am not going to pay 10$+ a month for a few perks and QOL that should be in the game by now anyways such as:

    1) energy timers should be reduced. there is so much content in the game now that it would be nice to actually be able to play it quicker.
    2) inventory space has sort of been a joke since the game creation. we are all pulling 4/5*s constantly and duping them forever now that selling ISO is like a part time job. people end up just not opening crystals for catalysts and heroes to work around this anyways. why not give everyone more space???
    3) gold isnt an issue for me but i know when rapidly progressing, it really is an issue. we should have gold and halls of healing the week after dungeons end each month or something consistent like that instead of paying for one gold quest.
    4) trading up items like 3 lvl 1 health potions for a lvl 2, trading up ISO, trading up boosts (e.g. 3 10% boosts for 1 20% champ boost), and so on should be part of the game, not some paywall like this. this is somewhat of an fighting/ MMORPG and yet it doesn't incorporate any of the elements like these that typical games do into it.

    It's cool you guys are trying out new things, but this isnt something that you can really remove from the game if it ends up being a flop without making either the people who subscribed or the people who didnt subscribe angry. that is why you are getting so much backlash already.

    Actually, I think the "much backlash" is mostly fizzling out, and that's in no small part because of the very players you mention: the moderate spenders. Those guys are seeing that the Sigil is one of the best offers targeted at them in the history of the game, and it isn't just a bunch of "QOL that should be in the game anyway." It is easy to complain about something that doesn't exist yet, since few people will challenge that complaint without direct experience. But now that players have direct experience with the Sigil, the general mood has changed quite a bit. This is not the first time this has happened regarding something that was supposed to be highly controversial. Sometimes the couple dozen people complaining represent a much larger subset of the players, and sometimes they don't.

    There's still people that don't like the Sigil, but as a percentage of the playerbase I'm just not seeing it. This doesn't really hurt free to play, since the Sigil benefits are generally perceived to be less performance-impacting than many cash offers. This doesn't affect whales at all, because they just buy everything anyway. The biggest impact is with moderate spenders, who are getting more overall value for moderate spending today than they were getting a week ago. That's not the recipe for disaster you're projecting.
  • allinashesallinashes Posts: 414 ★★
    Can anyone offer any insight on why the Sigil inventory increase doesn't apply to energy refills? I mean I'll continue to manage them the way I always have, but it seems weird to specifically exclude them. Free crystal side effect? Cuz that's what I mostly get from them when I need revives.

  • EatChrisEatChris Posts: 2
    I've spent about $10 on this game over the past 2 years. I will only participate in $1 bonuses for now and forever. I love the game and have no issue grinding my way up. Certainly the game can offer anything they want for cash. Anything within reason 8=D
  • mostlyharmlessnmostlyharmlessn Posts: 841 ★★★

    Lormif said:

    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    They have to make money somehow to fund the game. Everything can’t be free.
    They make money from the play store and the apple app store before they even make money from their offers. How much they receive is based on number of people logging in and the amount of time. It the concessions they receive. Most of the money made goes towards their profit margin and can be used to work on developing other games.
    Sorry? Can you elaborate on this? The only money they make is from the offers. Apple does not pay them just to have the app there or free downloads or how many people logged in. The people claim this typically base it on a faulty understanding of "revenue per download" or "revenue per user", that revenue part is from their in game sales.
    Why do you think it is important for them to have the daily logins. All access to the app is tracked. Why do you think so many companies are pushing people to download an app. There is a much bigger picture. The are so many companies that produce and mange these apps with no revenue to be gain from the app.
    Most people don't realize the money app makers can make from just from the data collected by using the app.

    Location data, age, in game spending (or lack there of), subsequent searches of game information, ect. All that data is collected and licenses to use that data is sold.

    Data such as players X age are playing from Y Country/providence/State, and "Hey we got X amount of people that are willing to do X for Y" is extremely value-able for anyone doing behavioral analysis, marketing analytics, and customer engagement research.

    Yes the bankroll is made from in game sales for a game like this, but there's plenty of ways games like this monetize the sheer volume of data they collect.
  • MidnightfoxMidnightfox Posts: 395 ★★

    What does "introductory price" mean? Why would it increase, and by how much?

    The price is Subject to change in the future, but you are not locked into a subscription, as you will have to choose to resubscribe every month.
    I very weirdly for me subscribed right away. However, hike the price and it’s not worth it. Not even sure at 9.99 it is so far.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 8,919 Guardian

    Lormif said:

    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    Webby72 said:

    So, what can free 2 play players do with this?

    Nothing. That’s the point. To encourage spending.
    They have to make money somehow to fund the game. Everything can’t be free.
    They make money from the play store and the apple app store before they even make money from their offers. How much they receive is based on number of people logging in and the amount of time. It the concessions they receive. Most of the money made goes towards their profit margin and can be used to work on developing other games.
    Sorry? Can you elaborate on this? The only money they make is from the offers. Apple does not pay them just to have the app there or free downloads or how many people logged in. The people claim this typically base it on a faulty understanding of "revenue per download" or "revenue per user", that revenue part is from their in game sales.
    Why do you think it is important for them to have the daily logins. All access to the app is tracked. Why do you think so many companies are pushing people to download an app. There is a much bigger picture. The are so many companies that produce and mange these apps with no revenue to be gain from the app.
    Most people don't realize the money app makers can make from just from the data collected by using the app.

    Location data, age, in game spending (or lack there of), subsequent searches of game information, ect. All that data is collected and licenses to use that data is sold.

    Data such as players X age are playing from Y Country/providence/State, and "Hey we got X amount of people that are willing to do X for Y" is extremely value-able for anyone doing behavioral analysis, marketing analytics, and customer engagement research.

    Yes the bankroll is made from in game sales for a game like this, but there's plenty of ways games like this monetize the sheer volume of data they collect.
    Apps that want to monetize data like that have to collect it from the users first. Some do, but Kabam doesn't appear to. All they ask for is email address and while they can theoretically datamine some data about you from email if you give them an email connected to other services, they don't get any user information from Apple. If they were collecting things like location data your phone would warn you.

    Both Apple and Google have policies that prohibit app developers from sharing or selling data to third parties except for the explicit purpose of improving the app or for allowed in-app advertising. This is difficult for them to police, but they do kick apps for violating those policies. In particular, if anything Apple has been accused of being too heavy handed with app banning for privacy concerns, not too light handed.
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