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Upcoming Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw Balance Changes

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  • Options
    DJSergyDJSergy Posts: 170 ★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂
  • Options
    r3dyr3dy Posts: 30 ★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    And that should be analize based on the problems that are coming up, if the problem is damage of champions, then it is a lack of testing, like i said in other post, dev dont need to play the game in order to get data, they can run thousand of simulated situations, they own the code.

    Testing isn't the same as when things go live.
    if we are talking of a mathematical process, like calculating the damage, then it is the exactly the same, it do not depend on user skill, device or anythings outside the code of the game.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,248 ★★★★★
    DJSergy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂
    They can't test it the same as we can.
  • Options
    Lvernon15Lvernon15 Posts: 11,596 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Markg25 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    🙄 you play the game at a lower level ( most people are discussing cull and end game content
    GroundedWisdom said:

    Deadmaddy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    The issue with the data is it’s taken from everywhere including easier endgame content, it screws the numbers for the truly difficult content, and all the other balance changes have mostly been around endgame content, by using early content in the numbers it means the data doesn’t show how he performs in difficult content, which is what champs should be balanced around, I’m 100% sure that the data isn’t exclusively difficult content, and for balancing like this it should be, easier content can be done with any good champ
    Champs should be balanced, and are balanced, with all areas in mind. Not End-Game alone. The game houses many different levels of progress, and doesn't revolve around one demographic. In terms of the data, the data shows what it does, and analyzing it takes into account the scale of where it's taken from. Bottom line is, if they say it's too much, it's too much. We can't argue that any more than we can argue the sky is yellow.
    Show your profile to people. I don't think you understand or even play this game given how you're on 24*7 defending Kabam. People spent real world money on Cull and they have every right to demand it back even if Cull's damage is reduced by 1. Your opinion is not needed on every thread. Also you're most hated person in MCOC history.
    I'm not posting my Profile. People have thrown it around enough regardless, and it has nothing to do with the topic. I've spent real world money on the game myself. Sorry, but none of us have the right to demand it back. We don't purchase for ownership. We rent permission to use their product. Everything, right down to the Champ people are arguing about, belongs to them.
    Also, I've been aware of the latter fact for years. If you think it's news, it's not. I certainly haven't earned that status intentionally, or on purpose, but it also doesn't hurt my feelings either. It's a game. We're discussing a game, on a Forum, with people who are presumably adults. At least the majority. It's not my fault people choose to make it personal.
    We don’t need to see whizz’s profile we all know he plays at a low level and he once bought a loot bag. 🥴

    We're discussing changes to Cull. Not just the upper crust. Discussions aren't dominated by End-Game. You're also wrong about the low level and Loot Bag bit.
    The discussion about the nerf should be around the endgame though, since that’s what’s affected the most, they said something along the lines of this nerf is for future content, future content is generally harder than current content, content like act 5 besides a few fights only really needs a hard hitter, but act 6 and beyond will require specific counters, and this nerf is apparently so future content doesn’t have to be designed to stop a couple champs, so yes not everyone here is on 6.2, but you can’t say your progress in the game has nothing to do with it since if you aren’t at the endgame level content you wouldn’t know how full is in said content
    No. Conversations about End-Game revolve around End-Game. Conversations about changes to Champs revolve around the Champs. One Player demographic does not represent the entire game.
    But they do represent where Kabam focused most balance changes, and where they are saying the problem with cull is, and also where many more people have cull, yes people from all around the game can be affected by changes to chanps, but in endgame a fairly small change, using a past example of aa, can cause huge changes in their viability compared to earlier game content, and the resources endgame players use are much rarer, now a player who has taken cull to 5-50 as one of their first and a player who has take. Him to 5-65 are in a similar boat currently where they’ve used rare resources on him, but people who haven’t spent t2a and t5b don’t realise how rare they are even at the endgame, and while something like t4cc may seem rare to them now in a few weeks or months the t4cc used will be insignificant, but t5b and other endgame resources don’t come in higher quantities and you can’t simply take other champs higher in the near future
    I know there's this collective misconception that the game revolves around the Top and that section rules everything, but there's an entire game outside of that level. Changes to Champs affect Champs at any level, and looking at overall data isn't just focused on the Top.
    Did you not read the part about resources and champ balance sensitivity?
    So...because people spend higher Resources at the Top, they should only adjust Champs with End-Game in mind? No.
    Not just higher resources, rarer resources, often real money and huge amounts of time, no they shouldn’t only be balanced around endgame but that should be a bigger part of it, and in this post they even said it was for future content
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,248 ★★★★★
    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I mean, the argument is moot because if a Champ is doing too much or too little, they're most likely seeing it in the upper crust regardless. They're already looking there. I'm just saying looking at all data means looking at all data. Fundamentally I don't agree they should isolate it to one demographic unless it's on something at that demographic alone. Champs are at every level.

    Do you believe that it is ethical that once they identify a potential issue and start to review it that they continue to sell that champions featured crystal without letting the community know they are investigating a potential issue that could get the champion nerfed?
    The Champs are released into circulation. That's how the game works. They can't just take them back or put them in quarantine.
  • Options
    RO53TT1RO53TT1 Posts: 319 ★
    So I didn't read previous posts, I'm sure some of this has been said, but I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in anyway because the way you guys at kabam or kascam as alot of people have started calling u, but the way u treat us, YOUR CUSTOMERS, is just wrong, it borders on fraud. So to get the story strait, your company doesn't want to pay people to TEST out new champs to find out if they are to powerful or strait trash, so instead you release the champ, let YOUR CUSTOMERS test them for you, wait a few months, start watching youtube videos and decide weather the champ is good or not then if they are good you decide, MONTHS LATER I might add, that ur gonna weaken the champ because he's to good and people are getting thru the harder content to easily and since you've already gotten there money and/or units for the champion, but now your not getting enough money/units out of the harder content you somehow feel justified in doing this and yet you guys act offended when people ask for rank down tickets, alot of those people also uses awakening gems and we all know how hard those are to come by, 5* AG especially. Ok I will admit people ask for rank down tickets way to often, but do you blame them, these type of fraudstuff you guys are committing are becoming more common so for once in your lives pretend ur us, THE CUSTOMER, see how you would feel. Also if this is where we are going then can i rank up a champ and if that champ isn't as good as I was expecting can i get my resources back, yeah didn't think so. To paraphrase someone from your company just recently "summoners should be more selective on the champions they rank up and use resources on" well news flash WE DO, we wait for the youtubes or what u call quality control, to let us know if a champ is good or not and then IN GOOD FAITH we act accordingly, we rank up a champ expecting the champ will be as good as it was on the youtube video, AGAIN IN GOD FAITH, then you guys decide to make the champ weaker, well u can't have it both ways, either do ur own testing, full testing not betas summoners do for you, and fix the problem before it gets to us or deal with what you and your company release, u either get the money when the champ is released or you get the money from harder content, you can't have both and call yourself Profesional, ethical and transparent and be honest it boils down to the dollars of it all, that's fine your a for profit company but you guys need to start to remember who pays that money, who your customers are and how you treat them. It's time to do some restructuring at kabam or you may not be around because your gonna alienate ur own customers to the point they walk away, saddest part is WE DON'T BELIEVE YOU CARE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,248 ★★★★★
    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DJSergy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂
    They can't test it the same as we can.
    They can test it better than we can.
    No. Actually, they can't. Did you read Miike's comment about people running around the office not even being close to thousands of us on a server that's live with the game data?
  • Options
    Incitatus666Incitatus666 Posts: 189 ★
    What is the point of the CCP if champs will be changed? I am very very hesitant to purchase Featured crystals, probably will never if this policy stays.
  • Options
    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Harry_hzy said:

    Lormif said:

    Nick_Caine_32 said:

    Lormif said:

    Nick_Caine_32 said:

    Lormif said:

    Indrick781 said:

    If you stop responding to those that derail threads, they won't be able to derail them. I have them on ignore and threads are so much easier to get through.

    Always easier to get through threads when you remove those that disagree with you under the auspice of "derailing", generally though it is people like you who start the derailing, as you just did.
    You have 3025 posts and over 4.6k dislikes since that feature rolled out. You're one of the two they are referring to in this post who have spammed over 10% of the total comments. You're pretty openly argumentative and combative, often engaging negatively with those who don't invoke you first or at all. You've been called on this on other posts, usually when there's a big controversy like this one, for pushing your agenda and viewpoint to the point where a moderator needs to step in. It's pretty tiresome to read to be honest, and yet here we are again with the same issue. I see 3-4 defenders of this issue commenting, and literally the Japam guy posted the same reply, sometimes in all caps, multiple times and pages on here.

    You don't agree with those upset. Got it. At this point though, what point are you trying to make that hasn't already been said?
    Actually my posts were high before the feature was rolled out. Moderators tend to step in for other people in reply to me, I have only had one warning, because I dont insult or derail. My posts are generally on topic until someone else attacks me. Also dislikes are a popularity contest, it has no bearing on the content of the message, therefore I dont really care about them. Also I where do you see what percentage of posts someone has made on a thread, that would be interesting to see.
    You and groundedwisdom have so made a pattern of this on these types of posts, someone on reddit counted every single comment on this thread and counted up how many you and GW made. That's the percent. It's probably still climbing.

    You can tell yourself that disagrees don't matter, but isn't that a bit strange since you're so invested in writing on this forum every day? If you don't care about other's opinions (hitting a disagree button on your posts or direct comments) why post here at all? Isn't that the point, to see if others agree with you or not?

    Or are you really that stubborn that you can tell yourself your opinion is correct in every instance, to the point where you needed to reply over 10% of a 1000+ commented thread - but you openly say you don't think disagree totals matter? LOL that seems strange to me.

    If you're having others make video comments and reddit posts about your comments on this forum, if I were in your shoes, I would maybe take a look at what I'm doing and saying. So I'll ask again: even if you don't believe in disagreement with your posts, after admitting that's what you think a discussion means, what is the point you haven't already made here? If you continue posting the same thing, is it not by the very definition you laid out attacking other users for sharing theirs? Being purposefully combative just to prove them wrong?

    Is that really your job? And who appointed you? What purpose are you serving by continuing to push it?
    if disagrees mattered to me then I would post in agreement with people. I post to share knowledge, not be apart of high school like popularity contests.

    My opinion is not correct in every instance, but my logic is generally, not always, pretty good. And no, it is not attacking other users for sharing their opinin, it is attacking their statements, which is how discussions are supposed to work. If you cannot reply to people without being considered attacking them then you could not have a discussion.
    To be honest, your logic is very strange. You think game balance is everything, so for the game balance, kabam can do anything, all the player who worsted lots of money should be very happy what kabam did. I hope you are not doing your own business. The success business is make the client happy, make them happy to spend money, and let the customers come back again and again, and let clients think all the money they spent worth it. Do you know what the consequences of this change? Players don’t want to spend money anymore to get the champions. They think all the money they spent all wasted. They don’t know what are they buying for. If there is no player spend money, what is the point of game balance? There will be no game.
    I never said it was everything, I said it is more important than individual purchases, because without it then their individual purchases suffer, particularly on the backend. You cannot make the client happy at the expense of long term suitability of the game. 12.0 is a perfect example of this. They should have nered willpower a long time before that, but they did not, it started to impact the game particularly on the back end, but also with the creation of new content so they had to have a massive nerf, which should have been a bunch of smaller nerfs. If you dont understand my reasoning please ask, dont assume.
  • Options
    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    they have an idea, but ideas can be wrong. Again you need 1000 poins of data from every type of interaction to get a statistically relevant idea on how they work.
    They should have more than an idea or they're doing it wrong. For instance, they should know exactly how many heavies Cull can get off in a 3 minute period. Any more than that and something is wrong with the engine. Based on that, they can calculate the maximum number of armor breaks he can apply without enhancement over that period. Using that information and the relevant inputs, they would be able to transform and evaluate that damage calculation under a wide variety of conditions automatically and have them flagged when above or below certain values.

    Statistical relevancy and randomized sampling plans aren't necessary. Why would they be? If the calculations have been through the validation and verification process it would be a wasted effort to repeat testing pointlessly. After that any unexpected outcome would be a bug.
    except what you just described is base interactions with the game engine, not interactions with the nodes or how the players are using them.
    Many Node interactions would just be additional inputs. Not a big deal. If they were the kind that absolutely needed in-hand testing, then you would do that before going live. Another reason why playtesting is important before going live. If your playtesters aren't good enough or inventive enough to closely replicate or articulate to the team what players are capable of, you need better ones. Like playing Quake-style, even if your testers aren't good enough to do it, they should be smart enough to realize that it can be done and articulate that.
    Many but not all. here is the thing though, if you are so sure of this why dont you get intot he game buisness, the MMO game buisness is plague with balance nerfs and upgrades. If you have insight and knowledge that no one else in the buis has then you can make a killing.
  • Options
    Lvernon15Lvernon15 Posts: 11,596 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DJSergy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂
    They can't test it the same as we can.
    They can test it better than we can.
    No. Actually, they can't. Did you read Miike's comment about people running around the office not even being close to thousands of us on a server that's live with the game data?
    Maybe they can’t test as well as us but if they can’t test the damage of a very simple champion such as cull then something is wrong, it took players a few minutes to find out how hard he hits, and if they knew that at release but didn’t realise it would cause future problems (which I still don’t see) and they have to nerf him then it shouldn’t be without notice and after everyone has spent hard earned resources on him
  • Options
    ATLIEN06ATLIEN06 Posts: 2 ★
    This isn’t fair at all!! I just ranked up my 6 star Cull Obsidian to rank 2 a week ago and I spent over $200 on his cavalier crystals
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    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DJSergy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂
    They can't test it the same as we can.
    They can test it better than we can.
    No. Actually, they can't. Did you read Miike's comment about people running around the office not even being close to thousands of us on a server that's live with the game data?
    Maybe they can’t test as well as us but if they can’t test the damage of a very simple champion such as cull then something is wrong, it took players a few minutes to find out how hard he hits, and if they knew that at release but didn’t realise it would cause future problems (which I still don’t see) and they have to nerf him then it shouldn’t be without notice and after everyone has spent hard earned resources on him
    It isnt without notice, you have 3 months notice.
  • Options
    Lvernon15Lvernon15 Posts: 11,596 ★★★★★
    Lormif said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DJSergy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂
    They can't test it the same as we can.
    They can test it better than we can.
    No. Actually, they can't. Did you read Miike's comment about people running around the office not even being close to thousands of us on a server that's live with the game data?
    Maybe they can’t test as well as us but if they can’t test the damage of a very simple champion such as cull then something is wrong, it took players a few minutes to find out how hard he hits, and if they knew that at release but didn’t realise it would cause future problems (which I still don’t see) and they have to nerf him then it shouldn’t be without notice and after everyone has spent hard earned resources on him
    It isnt without notice, you have 3 months notice.
    Not for cull, the announcement was made after all his sales and arenas and yes I know they said he was added to the basic due to the post being late, but when the most money was spent trying to get him was when nobody knew, I think you’re referring to from now to the actual nerf, which I wasn’t
  • Options
    BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 2,283 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DJSergy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂
    They can't test it the same as we can.
    They can test it better than we can.
    No. Actually, they can't. Did you read Miike's comment about people running around the office not even being close to thousands of us on a server that's live with the game data?
    That depends on what you're looking for. If you want live server player data, then actual players will be better than some people at the office installing the game on their personal devices. If you want to know the absolute heights of damage that a champ is capable of within the engine to make sure your threshold isn't breached, players can't do that.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,248 ★★★★★
    edited September 2019
    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I mean, the argument is moot because if a Champ is doing too much or too little, they're most likely seeing it in the upper crust regardless. They're already looking there. I'm just saying looking at all data means looking at all data. Fundamentally I don't agree they should isolate it to one demographic unless it's on something at that demographic alone. Champs are at every level.

    Do you believe that it is ethical that once they identify a potential issue and start to review it that they continue to sell that champions featured crystal without letting the community know they are investigating a potential issue that could get the champion nerfed?
    The Champs are released into circulation. That's how the game works. They can't just take them back or put them in quarantine.
    I didnt say is it ethical to sell it, I asked you if its ethical to sell us something without telling us its under investigation? you didnt answer the question.
    Is it ethical? It's their product. They're not selling anything for ownership.
    Thus far, they've been upfront about the issues. There was one bug that was fixed. That led to another bug that made his Damage insane, and they responded to that quite quickly. This is the result of periodical rebalances and they already said they were coming. Supposedly with HT and Ann., but people couldn't let Maw go, so here we are. Not that I blame people. If it needs to be rebalanced, it needs to be done.
  • Options
    ATLIEN06ATLIEN06 Posts: 2 ★
    no need for me playing this bloody game anymore if these changes happen to cull obsidian. I’ve used too much of my resources to take my 6* to rank 2. I would need my refund back.
  • Options
    jdyke23jdyke23 Posts: 215 ★
    I’ve pumped a tonne of sig stones into mine and all sorts just for his damage output and his block considering he uses a door is just stupidly poor and he’s a potion drinker because he takes that much damage against high PI champs that I vary rarely use him in end game content only monthly content and map 5. He doesn’t need a change at all
  • Options
    BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 2,283 ★★★★★
    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    they have an idea, but ideas can be wrong. Again you need 1000 poins of data from every type of interaction to get a statistically relevant idea on how they work.
    They should have more than an idea or they're doing it wrong. For instance, they should know exactly how many heavies Cull can get off in a 3 minute period. Any more than that and something is wrong with the engine. Based on that, they can calculate the maximum number of armor breaks he can apply without enhancement over that period. Using that information and the relevant inputs, they would be able to transform and evaluate that damage calculation under a wide variety of conditions automatically and have them flagged when above or below certain values.

    Statistical relevancy and randomized sampling plans aren't necessary. Why would they be? If the calculations have been through the validation and verification process it would be a wasted effort to repeat testing pointlessly. After that any unexpected outcome would be a bug.
    except what you just described is base interactions with the game engine, not interactions with the nodes or how the players are using them.
    Many Node interactions would just be additional inputs. Not a big deal. If they were the kind that absolutely needed in-hand testing, then you would do that before going live. Another reason why playtesting is important before going live. If your playtesters aren't good enough or inventive enough to closely replicate or articulate to the team what players are capable of, you need better ones. Like playing Quake-style, even if your testers aren't good enough to do it, they should be smart enough to realize that it can be done and articulate that.
    Many but not all. here is the thing though, if you are so sure of this why dont you get intot he game buisness, the MMO game buisness is plague with balance nerfs and upgrades. If you have insight and knowledge that no one else in the buis has then you can make a killing.
    I haven't said anything requiring specialized knowledge or uncanny insight. Sad if a working company putting out an active game needed me to break them off this basic scheme.
  • Options
    RagamugginGunnerRagamugginGunner Posts: 2,210 ★★★★★
    DJSergy said:

    Lormif said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DJSergy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂
    They can't test it the same as we can.
    They can test it better than we can.
    No. Actually, they can't. Did you read Miike's comment about people running around the office not even being close to thousands of us on a server that's live with the game data?
    Maybe they can’t test as well as us but if they can’t test the damage of a very simple champion such as cull then something is wrong, it took players a few minutes to find out how hard he hits, and if they knew that at release but didn’t realise it would cause future problems (which I still don’t see) and they have to nerf him then it shouldn’t be without notice and after everyone has spent hard earned resources on him
    It isnt without notice, you have 3 months notice.
    It’s a late notice though. They started seen YouTube videos of Cull damage the next day he was released, why wait 3 months??? To “collect data”???? Or to milk the whales from fgmc?????
    Pretty similar to my point in the thread I just made about changing the champ release schedule. Basically add a safety net. It won't catch everything but it will catch a number of the things we've seen lately (Looking at you Nick Fury).

    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/159130/better-way-to-release-and-test-champs
  • Options
    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Lvernon15 said:

    Lormif said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DJSergy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂
    They can't test it the same as we can.
    They can test it better than we can.
    No. Actually, they can't. Did you read Miike's comment about people running around the office not even being close to thousands of us on a server that's live with the game data?
    Maybe they can’t test as well as us but if they can’t test the damage of a very simple champion such as cull then something is wrong, it took players a few minutes to find out how hard he hits, and if they knew that at release but didn’t realise it would cause future problems (which I still don’t see) and they have to nerf him then it shouldn’t be without notice and after everyone has spent hard earned resources on him
    It isnt without notice, you have 3 months notice.
    Not for cull, the announcement was made after all his sales and arenas and yes I know they said he was added to the basic due to the post being late, but when the most money was spent trying to get him was when nobody knew, I think you’re referring to from now to the actual nerf, which I wasn’t
    Then you need to define what you mean by "notice". notice generally mans you have knowledge before the change, not before other independent factors, as they cannot always know things before sales.
  • Options
    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    they have an idea, but ideas can be wrong. Again you need 1000 poins of data from every type of interaction to get a statistically relevant idea on how they work.
    They should have more than an idea or they're doing it wrong. For instance, they should know exactly how many heavies Cull can get off in a 3 minute period. Any more than that and something is wrong with the engine. Based on that, they can calculate the maximum number of armor breaks he can apply without enhancement over that period. Using that information and the relevant inputs, they would be able to transform and evaluate that damage calculation under a wide variety of conditions automatically and have them flagged when above or below certain values.

    Statistical relevancy and randomized sampling plans aren't necessary. Why would they be? If the calculations have been through the validation and verification process it would be a wasted effort to repeat testing pointlessly. After that any unexpected outcome would be a bug.
    except what you just described is base interactions with the game engine, not interactions with the nodes or how the players are using them.
    Many Node interactions would just be additional inputs. Not a big deal. If they were the kind that absolutely needed in-hand testing, then you would do that before going live. Another reason why playtesting is important before going live. If your playtesters aren't good enough or inventive enough to closely replicate or articulate to the team what players are capable of, you need better ones. Like playing Quake-style, even if your testers aren't good enough to do it, they should be smart enough to realize that it can be done and articulate that.
    Many but not all. here is the thing though, if you are so sure of this why dont you get intot he game buisness, the MMO game buisness is plague with balance nerfs and upgrades. If you have insight and knowledge that no one else in the buis has then you can make a killing.
    I haven't said anything requiring specialized knowledge or uncanny insight. Sad if a working company putting out an active game needed me to break them off this basic scheme.
    Except no game company that I have ever heard of is successful solely with testers, so therefore if what you claimed would work it would have to be specialized knowledge of uncanny insight. I have not met a single MMO company who has not normalized all asspects of the games that goes by without changing things.
This discussion has been closed.