Should I take Namor to rank 5 considering he is next on the chopping board or wait ?

Comments

Best wait until his proposed REWORK happens, because it's probably gonna be a Nerf.

With the new "nerfing" policy of kabam. I don't want to rank up any champ anymore. ...and it sucks the fun out of the game.

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phillgreen

I wouldn't spend rare resources on anyone now. The precedent has been set.

Get better at using the R4, they can't take your skill away from you.

DrZola

No way. You’ve worked too hard for those resources to see them wrecked by irresponsible policies.

What would be a responsible step here is a “hands off” date on these champs—some kind of statute of limitations that says when the team is done with the initial “adjustment” so players can make a meaningful determination about whether the champ is one they want to invest in.

Dr. Zola

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Lormif

No way. You’ve worked too hard for those resources to see them wrecked by irresponsible policies.

What would be a responsible step here is a “hands off” date on these champs—some kind of statute of limitations that says when the team is done with the initial “adjustment” so players can make a meaningful determination about whether the champ is one they want to invest in.

Dr. Zola

So a date after which balance of the game no longer matters, no matter what data shows there is an imbalance?

Dshu

Absolutely but wait 4 years before you do since they could find an interaction in game allowing him to cheese content even if they don't balance him in the next few months

DrZola

No way. You’ve worked too hard for those resources to see them wrecked by irresponsible policies.

What would be a responsible step here is a “hands off” date on these champs—some kind of statute of limitations that says when the team is done with the initial “adjustment” so players can make a meaningful determination about whether the champ is one they want to invest in.

Dr. Zola
So a date after which balance of the game no longer matters, no matter what data shows there is an imbalance?

That’s not what I said. Misstating someone's position by adding the most restrictive (“no longer”) and most extreme (“no matter”) terms is resorting to straw men once again. Bad form for a self-professed “logician.”

No, provide a list re: these “adjustments”—who’s safe for now, who’s on the table, which older champs are getting a review.

I’m not talking about meta-shifting, 12.0 level changes here—those are their own entity and should be dealt with separately. I’m talking about the “adjustment” program.

If the team needs the community to test the most basic attributes of its products (and according to Miike below, it does), then just announcing an “adjustment” program exists and that some champs might get changed isn’t enough.

Dr. Zola

Lormif

No way. You’ve worked too hard for those resources to see them wrecked by irresponsible policies.

What would be a responsible step here is a “hands off” date on these champs—some kind of statute of limitations that says when the team is done with the initial “adjustment” so players can make a meaningful determination about whether the champ is one they want to invest in.

Dr. Zola
So a date after which balance of the game no longer matters, no matter what data shows there is an imbalance?
That’s not what I said. Misstating someone's position by adding the most restrictive (“no longer”) and most extreme (“no matter”) terms is resorting to straw men once again. Bad form for a self-professed “logician.”

No, provide a list re: these “adjustments”—who’s safe for now, who’s on the table, which older champs are getting a review.

I’m not talking about meta-shifting, 12.0 level changes here—those are their own entity and should be dealt with separately. I’m talking about the “adjustment” program.

If the team needs the community to test the most basic attributes of its products (and according to Miike below, it does), then just announcing an “adjustment” program exists and that some champs might get changed isn’t enough.

Dr. Zola

If you note my comment was a question. I did not create a strawman because I did not state your made the claim, I asked for clarification. Asking if this is what you mean is not creating a strawman..

Even still what you say you want them to do is what they have already stated they are doing. It does not mean other nerfs, such as cull, so I am not sure what you are asking for in addition to what they are already providing, if you think it is ok to still nerf for balance after that period.

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Bear3

It’s funny that they think testing a champion for “an entire week” is a long test period. So glad car companies don’t use the kabam testing policies.

🐻

DrZola

Let's be real, though, as far as we know the adjustments they'll do, be it upwards or downwards, could be really miniscule.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure as heck hoping they don't go overboard with this, but I think someone hitting like a concrete dump truck going sonic speed will still hit extremely hard after any adjustments.

Sometimes the dev team seems to be kinda detached from their own game, but they did design cull to be a massive damage dealer. And since they're adjusting him, not reworking him, he'll still be a damage dealer afterwards.

I think we'll have to wait for more information on the ht/annihilus changes to get a better picture of what they're actually trying to achieve here.

I would r5 namor tbh. I don't see them completely reworking him, so even if he overall does like 5-10% less damage after any adjustments, he'll still be an immensely useful champ.

This is what I hope—and I’m somewhat optimistic that someone on the team realizes how destabilizing this “adjustment” policy could be if it isn’t managed very, very carefully.

But I’d still hold on Namor.

Dr. Zola

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DrZola

No way. You’ve worked too hard for those resources to see them wrecked by irresponsible policies.

What would be a responsible step here is a “hands off” date on these champs—some kind of statute of limitations that says when the team is done with the initial “adjustment” so players can make a meaningful determination about whether the champ is one they want to invest in.

Dr. Zola
So a date after which balance of the game no longer matters, no matter what data shows there is an imbalance?
That’s not what I said. Misstating someone's position by adding the most restrictive (“no longer”) and most extreme (“no matter”) terms is resorting to straw men once again. Bad form for a self-professed “logician.”

No, provide a list re: these “adjustments”—who’s safe for now, who’s on the table, which older champs are getting a review.

I’m not talking about meta-shifting, 12.0 level changes here—those are their own entity and should be dealt with separately. I’m talking about the “adjustment” program.

If the team needs the community to test the most basic attributes of its products (and according to Miike below, it does), then just announcing an “adjustment” program exists and that some champs might get changed isn’t enough.

Dr. Zola
If you note my comment was a question. I did not create a strawman because I did not state your made the claim, I asked for clarification. Asking if this is what you mean is not creating a strawman..

Even still what you say you want them to do is what they have already stated they are doing. It does not mean other nerfs, such as cull, so I am not sure what you are asking for in addition to what they are already providing, if you think it is ok to still nerf for balance after that period.

Not exactly. We were told a set of newer champs will basically be re-tested in the live game by us, the players, and that the team will evaluate “adjustments” to those champs and announce any adjustments before they enter the basic crystal.

So who is next? Who looks like a probable “adjustment” candidate and why? Ronin wasn’t—what makes him special?

Is it literally a month-by-month analysis by new release champ schedule only, or could it include others? If damage is a concern, are older big-damage dealers up for a re-evaluation or not? Why draw the line at new vs. old?

I don’t have any issue with champs having “trade-offs”—that seems like an important principle of any game design. Sometimes, those trade-offs may need adjustment because of things that have changed in-game.

What concerns me most is what appears to be a brief cycle of champ hype/promo-to- champ adjustment that lacks any real protection for the consumer or oversight of the game team.

The simplest and fairest fix would be to just stop selling featured crystals entirely. That way, the only way to acquire a new champ would be arena, and the impact of an OP champ would be very limited. Once the champ entered the basic, the team would have had months of data to evaluate and every chance to adjust.

Of course, that’s not realistic at all—champ sales are surely a massive money maker. And that’s at the core of this whole issue.

But if the team needs the community to test new champs, there has to be a fairer way than what they are doing.

Dr. Zola

Lormif

No way. You’ve worked too hard for those resources to see them wrecked by irresponsible policies.

What would be a responsible step here is a “hands off” date on these champs—some kind of statute of limitations that says when the team is done with the initial “adjustment” so players can make a meaningful determination about whether the champ is one they want to invest in.

Dr. Zola
So a date after which balance of the game no longer matters, no matter what data shows there is an imbalance?
That’s not what I said. Misstating someone's position by adding the most restrictive (“no longer”) and most extreme (“no matter”) terms is resorting to straw men once again. Bad form for a self-professed “logician.”

No, provide a list re: these “adjustments”—who’s safe for now, who’s on the table, which older champs are getting a review.

I’m not talking about meta-shifting, 12.0 level changes here—those are their own entity and should be dealt with separately. I’m talking about the “adjustment” program.

If the team needs the community to test the most basic attributes of its products (and according to Miike below, it does), then just announcing an “adjustment” program exists and that some champs might get changed isn’t enough.

Dr. Zola
If you note my comment was a question. I did not create a strawman because I did not state your made the claim, I asked for clarification. Asking if this is what you mean is not creating a strawman..

Even still what you say you want them to do is what they have already stated they are doing. It does not mean other nerfs, such as cull, so I am not sure what you are asking for in addition to what they are already providing, if you think it is ok to still nerf for balance after that period.
Not exactly. We were told a set of newer champs will basically be re-tested in the live game by us, the players, and that the team will evaluate “adjustments” to those champs and announce any adjustments before they enter the basic crystal.

So who is next? Who looks like a probable “adjustment” candidate and why? Ronin wasn’t—what makes him special?

Is it literally a month-by-month analysis by new release champ schedule only, or could it include others? If damage is a concern, are older big-damage dealers up for a re-evaluation or not? Why draw the line at new vs. old?

I don’t have any issue with champs having “trade-offs”—that seems like an important principle of any game design. Sometimes, those trade-offs may need adjustment because of things that have changed in-game.

What concerns me most is what appears to be a brief cycle of champ hype/promo-to- champ adjustment that lacks any real protection for the consumer or oversight of the game team.

The simplest and fairest fix would be to just stop selling featured crystals entirely. That way, the only way to acquire a new champ would be arena, and the impact of an OP champ would be very limited. Once the champ entered the basic, the team would have had months of data to evaluate and every chance to adjust.

Of course, that’s not realistic at all—champ sales are surely a massive money maker. And that’s at the core of this whole issue.

But if the team needs the community to test new champs, there has to be a fairer way than what they are doing.

Dr. Zola

Here is the thing, it is not a matter of them wanting the community to "test", its a matter of the champions int he community see things that no amount of realistic internal testing can possibly see. you have stated you have experiance in MMOs, can you name one that foresees on balance that does not balance aspects of the game after it has been in the community? Its a common place, because I as a test lead with a 20 person play test team cannot put a champion through the same paces as 10k players can.

The problem in this game is the payment model, people pay for those champions, so they feel entitled to the champion broken or not, they generally do not care about the balance of the game. This is an issue in the other MMOs, but ones where you pay a subscription the company generally have an easier way out.

DrZola

@Lormif I think that’s a fair point, and in my opinion it really is the central issue here. If the newest champs were realistically earnable with in-game currency only, it’s different.

I don’t expect every product to be 100% error-free for eternity. Anyone who does is crazy—they can’t be.

But...when products get sold with their core, advertised attributes wrong, that suggests to me a deeper problem. This is a model that wouldn’t fly in any other industry I can think of.

Dr. Zola

Lormif

@DrZola And that is understandable, ever since i got fed up with how 12.0 was handled I have been giving it a great amount of thought. the RTD work well in a lot of situations, but it is not really fair to those who paid a lot of money to get the champ, or even dupe them. it works well for she-hulk because he has been out for a while, but cull is new.

What I would like to see if ideas on how to make it fair for those who paid. What my thought would be is something along the lines of what we know they can do now thanks to the double master rewards. After a rework like this give the players who got the crystals an option. That option is you can either get rank down tickets or they pull back all the rewards for all the crystal openings and give you those units back. this allows people to decide

DrZola

While I’m at it, I’m going to engage in a crazy thought experiment here: what would the game look like if featured crystals didn’t exist?

Put aside the financial impact for now—I’m going to assume it’s financially doable.

The rate of new champ acquisition would slow down. Maybe the rate of new champ introduction would decrease as well, hopefully with a focus on getting it right as opposed to getting it out. CCP players would have one less thing to focus on.

Arena scores—maybe they go up, or maybe they go down. If you know the champ you get is immediately on the table, perhaps you don’t grind so hard. Or maybe you do, since you know you will be one of only a few who get an OP champ for 3 months.

There’s less need to buff the snot out of new EQ bosses in an effort to make them look awesome and goose sales.

So what takes the featured’s place? I’m not sure—maybe a 300 unit crystal that offers a subset of champs at a lesser drop rate. Or nothing at all.

Again...crazy thought experiment.

Dr. Zola

Stagedear85

I would say wait because we are not sure what rebalance will be taken place with him, I have 4 new champs at rank 3 and I'm actually scared to rank them up because tier 2 alpha and tier 5 basic are hard to come by and you only get but so much without spending on deals so to waste these on a champ you love just to hear kabam want to rebalance them is a concern we all should have. what's also annoying is we wont know until 3 months after these champs are released if they're going to be rebalance aka nerf. if the champ is good I say wait but if the champ is average you can rank up because their rebalance will be a buff while the good champ will be a nerf. They're taking the fun out of the Game and sooner than later they will see that a lot of the top players and spenders will look for something else to play because their passion and drive to play MCOC is no longer there.

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KoperBoy

No way. You’ve worked too hard for those resources to see them wrecked by irresponsible policies.

What would be a responsible step here is a “hands off” date on these champs—some kind of statute of limitations that says when the team is done with the initial “adjustment” so players can make a meaningful determination about whether the champ is one they want to invest in.

Dr. Zola

There was a date implemented already, and Cull was way past that date - but they decided to "balance" him anyway.

Lormif

No way. You’ve worked too hard for those resources to see them wrecked by irresponsible policies.

What would be a responsible step here is a “hands off” date on these champs—some kind of statute of limitations that says when the team is done with the initial “adjustment” so players can make a meaningful determination about whether the champ is one they want to invest in.

Dr. Zola
There was a date implemented already, and Cull was way past that date - but they decided to "balance" him anyway.

That date is a soft date and will never stop them from balancing the champs after if needed. It also was created after he was already out.

Rasilover

still worth rank 5 even if he gets nerfed hard for that prestige

tonyj007

Just a opinion , tweak old champions, then tweak new champions. Feels this game will never be stable. Maybe too many champions added to a game that has been unstable for months. bugs add more bugs. just try and stabilize game before tweaking champions

ps no SA rewards , please tweak or fix

KoperBoy

No way. You’ve worked too hard for those resources to see them wrecked by irresponsible policies.

What would be a responsible step here is a “hands off” date on these champs—some kind of statute of limitations that says when the team is done with the initial “adjustment” so players can make a meaningful determination about whether the champ is one they want to invest in.

Dr. Zola
There was a date implemented already, and Cull was way past that date - but they decided to "balance" him anyway.
That date is a soft date and will never stop them from balancing the champs after if needed. It also was created after he was already out.

You can try to play word-lawyer anyway you want. By the rules they set themselves, he was safe.

By setting this precedent, why should we believe anything they say anymore?

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