How did we let this happen?

Zeke_the_XbotZeke_the_Xbot Posts: 202
edited August 2017 in General Discussion
Can someone please explain how we the community let Kabam Double nerf BW as far as AW is concerned. The one reason (Thorns nodes) why you really bring her to AW she is now wholesomely ineffective. If you have to face a 5* Mutant Champion the damage you deal is no where near enough compared with the sustainability of a 5* with boosted health, add to that class disadvantage so said 5* mutant naturally hits harder and the boosted attack power, and the fact that they reduce BW signature ability ever further than it was initally nerfed down to, I just don't understand how we the community allowed Kabam to steal a tool from our tool box.
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Comments

  • MEŦAPħҰSMEŦAPħҰS Posts: 340 ★★
    ehhh...they issued rdts. everyone but you knew she wouldnt be as viable anymore.

    mutants are the only smart options for thorns, just more strategic to negate bws ability.
  • Deadbyrd9Deadbyrd9 Posts: 3,429 ★★★★
    I use my bw on map 6 for thorns IM but that's about it for her
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 18,481 ★★★★★
    Dexman1349 wrote: »
    So Kabam nerfed her by allowing mutants to be placed on thorns node in war?

    That's just smart strategy by your opponent...

    No read again they double nerfed her.. They reduced her signature ability from pre-12.0 100.1% to 69.99% right and then they add the little caveat that she lose an additional 15% when facing a mutant opponent. So by doing so effectively made:
    1. Mutants the only smart option for Thorns nodes in AW
    2. BW a not so good choice anymore for combating thorns nodes since a 5* Mutant ranked high enough will outlast her any day of the week now.

    The other side of that is she gains 15% with Class Advantage. Probably best to use a Tech Champ either way. That wasn't a nerf. It was a buff.
  • Dexman1349Dexman1349 Posts: 3,056 ★★★★★
    Yes, *technically* it's a double nerf, but it's also smart strategy on your war opposition for using it to their advantage.

    Can you honestly tell me that you don't do war placements to take advantage of certain abilities of both your champs but also to counter the abilities of typical attackers?

    I don't see people crying "unfair nerfs" for facing bleed-immune war defenders since so many attackers rely on bleed...

    Is it also an unfair nerf for placing a defender that can inflict heal block?

    Just wait for Kabam to come up with power-control-immunities...
  • I think he means the community suggestion to make her sig class dependent. So her max is 55% vs a mutant champ.

    She's purely a spidey/electro specialist now. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

    Specifically, I recall the suggestion coming out of the feedback focus group that formed after the release of 12.0.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 18,481 ★★★★★
    edited August 2017
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    I think he means the community suggestion to make her sig class dependent. So her max is 55% vs a mutant champ.

    She's purely a spidey/electro specialist now. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

    Specifically, I recall the suggestion coming out of the feedback focus group that formed after the release of 12.0.

    This is true. One of the Testers (Focus Group) suggested it and they liked the idea.
  • Jon8299Jon8299 Posts: 1,067
    I agree there should be some risk to using a champ.

    For Black Widow I think a 100.1% chance to use her ability was way OP. Her sig name is called Subtlety. Reducing it to 80% and plus/minus of 10% to match class relationships was the way to go.

    For Scarlet Witch if you really wanted her to dominate it wasn't her sig that made her OP it was her being in a critical hit team. But having a critical hit team was the risk. You had 2 Juggetnauts and Colossus and Hulk and if she went down or became ineffective in some way you had to use the others. A counter would have been to create a node where critical hits might not proc, think of it as Subtlety 2.0.

    Dr. Strange was the one I don't understand. If you made a mistake it could take you 1 - 4 fights to get back to full health. They already removed his Perfect Block synergy all they needed was to reduce his armor up buff to not be a perfect block every time and maybe decrease his Life Steal by a few percent. There that's it. No they completely stripped him of his pride.
  • OKAYGangOKAYGang Posts: 440
    Use Quake and Hawkeye on your attack team with her, problem solved. Better yet use Crossbones with whoever you want.
  • Jon8299 wrote: »
    Dr. Strange was the one I don't understand. If you made a mistake it could take you 1 - 4 fights to get back to full health.

    It could, but it was unlikely to take that long. That 50% steal was huge, and it stacked with armor break. If you played your cards right you could get huge bursts of healing.
  • I might be mistaken, but when this issue was brought up a few months ago, I remember kabam stating that BWs sig ability was never designed to counter thorns node since its a node and not a champs ability. She has ability reduction on the champ's ability not a node...I could be wrong tho, I'd have to do some digging on Reddit to find the post.
  • I_am_GrootI_am_Groot Posts: 646
    edited August 2017
    One of my last wars was weeks ago and I noticed something I thought was a nerf for BW or she was broken.

    I've my BW duped and I was the one designated to clean the thorn node near the left sub boss.
    I didn't get hits, just 2 or 3 starting the fight thanks to the classical stutter. Because it was starting I'm sure the AI had not buffs. Plus I saw I lose just less than 10% for free due this "lag".
    Anyway I finished the fight with less than the 40%. Literally it was like I used somechamp else different than BW.

    But I didn't fight a Mutant, but Groot. Even I think it happened to me twice and the other time was Howard. Anyway I'm sure it wasn't a Mutant because I thought, if he was mutant he could maybe debuff the BW's ability.
    I thought her ability was broken, but then I noticed she was working fine in quests and arenas.

    So maybe the problem isn't related to the Mutants but her ability broken in Wars or related to the thorns nodes now immunes to her ability.

    Has anyone else noticed it?.
  • I might be mistaken, but when this issue was brought up a few months ago, I remember kabam stating that BWs sig ability was never designed to counter thorns node since its a node and not a champs ability. She has ability reduction on the champ's ability not a node...I could be wrong tho, I'd have to do some digging on Reddit to find the post.

    Yeah well Kabam can spin it anyway they want to. They can say oh she isn't making us as much money because she is 100% counter to the node in current state change her and say she wasn't meant to counter nodes but abilities. See how that works they can plan behind the scenes and say something totally different. When the truth is she was probably a revenue hinderance in her previous glory as thorns is designed to cost the player something either a revive and potions or just some potions but still something
  • JaffacakedJaffacaked Posts: 1,416 ★★★★
    edited August 2017
    Dexman1349 wrote: »
    So Kabam nerfed her by allowing mutants to be placed on thorns node in war?

    That's just smart strategy by your opponent...

    No read again they double nerfed her.. They reduced her signature ability from pre-12.0 100.1% to 69.99% right and then they add the little caveat that she lose an additional 15% when facing a mutant opponent. So by doing so effectively made:
    1. Mutants the only smart option for Thorns nodes in AW
    2. BW a not so good choice anymore for combating thorns nodes since a 5* Mutant ranked high enough will outlast her any day of the week now.

    The other side of that is she gains 15% with Class Advantage. Probably best to use a Tech Champ either way. That wasn't a nerf. It was a buff.

    How on earth was that a buff, they nerfed her do hard that people cried then in return they took the suggestion from Nupe I believe to add the +\- 15%

    And before the nerf they had no testers, it's was after this that they took on Nupe an dorky Dave as beta testers
  • Superman69Superman69 Posts: 534
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    Jon8299 wrote: »
    Dr. Strange was the one I don't understand. If you made a mistake it could take you 1 - 4 fights to get back to full health.

    It could, but it was unlikely to take that long. That 50% steal was huge, and it stacked with armor break. If you played your cards right you could get huge bursts of healing.

    Still what they have done now has made him plain useless. Especially since he has no 5* variant. Once the best champ in the game is now just an arena fodder. And they promised us that these champs would remain good after 12.0.1 (or 12.1 i don't remember which was it)
  • GbSarkarGbSarkar Posts: 1,075
    edited August 2017
    They half listened to the suggestions regarding BW. The original suggestion was to bump up her si99 reduction to 80% (something that they didn't do) and then add a ±10% based on class (which they did, but they jumped up the gain/loss DAA reduction to 15%)
    The intention of the original BW suggestions was that she never falls below 70% DAA reduction at sig99 (the highest reduction value achievable with BW then) and becomes a very good counter to science champs. With Kabam's implementation of these suggestions (and the silent nerf to her damage output and pure skill) she bacame mostly useless for AW
  • 313rd313rd Posts: 135
    Her damage output during and after her specials or lack of was also a huge concern to me. And I never saw any announcement from them saying they were decreasing her damage from her specials or just overall. She was a boss killer now I wouldn't dare use her against anyone with high health or attack. It would be a waste of space and time. But they know these things and will never acknowledge or even respond.
  • LocoMotivesLocoMotives Posts: 1,200
    "Let this happen" is an interesting stance though. I feel like the community fought pretty hard for it to NOT happen and we still got steamrolled on some areas. Widow and DS got hit hardest, we managed to salvage SW and Thor somewhat.
  • RaganatorRaganator Posts: 1,411 ★★★★
    "Let this happen" is an interesting stance though. I feel like the community fought pretty hard for it to NOT happen and we still got steamrolled on some areas. Widow and DS got hit hardest, we managed to salvage SW and Thor somewhat.

    OP may be suffering from a type of Stockholm Syndrome.

  • Superman69 wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    Jon8299 wrote: »
    Dr. Strange was the one I don't understand. If you made a mistake it could take you 1 - 4 fights to get back to full health.

    It could, but it was unlikely to take that long. That 50% steal was huge, and it stacked with armor break. If you played your cards right you could get huge bursts of healing.

    Still what they have done now has made him plain useless. Especially since he has no 5* variant. Once the best champ in the game is now just an arena fodder. And they promised us that these champs would remain good after 12.0.1 (or 12.1 i don't remember which was it)

    He is still actually pretty good. Kabam didn't promise everyone would believe he was still good.

    And I know that outside of the vocal minority, Strange is still seen as a pretty good champion among the majority of players, because his basic arena scoring placed his relative demand much higher than you'd expect for a champion that was just arena fodder.
  • GbSarkar wrote: »
    They half listened to the suggestions regarding BW. The original suggestion was to bump up her si99 reduction to 80% (something that they didn't do) and then add a ±10% based on class (which they did, but they jumped up the gain/loss DAA reduction to 15%)
    The intention of the original BW suggestions was that she never falls below 70% DAA reduction at sig99 (the highest reduction value achievable with BW then) and becomes a very good counter to science champs. With Kabam's implementation of these suggestions (and the silent nerf to her damage output and pure skill) she bacame mostly useless for AW

    Actually, when I was still running the thorns path I used BW. 55% still better than nothing even against a mutant dropped there. The bigger problem was people dropping Mordo there, which made all DAA ineffective against the thorns damage. Still, she was plenty good enough for me to get my path done reliably.
  • just use crossbones then or send someone in your ally with a crossbones to deal with thorns.. cuz 99% of the time its a mutant.. and crossbones can do what bw cannot do
  • just use crossbones then or send someone in your ally with a crossbones to deal with thorns.. cuz 99% of the time its a mutant.. and crossbones can do what bw cannot do

    These days I see Mordo on that node more than half the time. Crossbones is not the best choice to face a Mordo on a thorns node. Even though my alliance is not a particularly high tier in AW I wouldn't use Crossbones on offense in AW. In AQ he's fine, but too much of a liability against mystic champs, and there are a lot of good defensive mystics: Magik, Dormammu, Mordo, Juggernaut. Even Hood and Dr. Strange on some nodes (unblockable special two I still see Strange occasionally).
  • NDK13NDK13 Posts: 620
    Why don't you use bw quake and Hawkeye synergy ?????
  • OKAYGangOKAYGang Posts: 440
    "Let this happen" is an interesting stance though. I feel like the community fought pretty hard for it to NOT happen and we still got steamrolled on some areas. Widow and DS got hit hardest, we managed to salvage SW and Thor somewhat.

    Ultron really sucks now too. (at least the 4* version) He hits like minnow now and very rarely auto evades.
  • Ultron has always hit like that. pillow hands
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