15.0 Alliance Wars Update Discussion Thread

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  • With Kills no longer counting against opponents how do you plan to curb the two currently rarely used AW exploits.

    Ironman/SIM exploit where opponent lets fight timer run out while above health recovery threshold (after it has already been proc'd) so now opponent can get another regen the next fight and this won't count against them at all.

    Leaving app exploit where opponent goes to the matchup screen then leaves the app until the minute timer expires then goes back in to see exact opponent they are fighting. This used to at least count as a kill but takes no health from opponent.
  • AndyspirosAndyspiros Posts: 17
    Hi Mike,

    What's going to score us more points, defender diversity or defender rating?

    For example will 110 diverse rank5 4* topped off with 40 rank4 5* score more than 150 rank4 5* in terms of defender diversity and defender rating points combined?

    Thanks,
    Andy
  • OmniOmni Posts: 574 ★★★
    Omni wrote: »
    GREAT! 5 minis with the same 3 attackers on a much bigger map, means more revives needed! No defender kill points! BIG SPENDERS WIN EVERY WAR!!! FUNNN!!!!!

    Bigger map doesn't mean that you'll be having more fights. There will be just as many Defenders as there were before.

    ok, just as many defenders. But defender kills, in combo with 5 mini bosses means $$ wins every war. No more skill. Good job killing wars.

    The amount of items that any user can use remains the same, so every Alliance Member can still only Revive/Heal 15 times. This hasn't changed. Additionally, 5 Minibosses doesn't mean that any one person will be taking on more than 1.

    The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.


    Why are you trying to make dramatic changes to keep people from feeling sad when they lose a fight? That's complete B.S... 1% exploration is worth 8 deaths right now, no one is worried about helping the other alliance when they have to revive, they are thinking about getting the node down. And if you can't handle losing a fight without your eyes tearing up, you shouldn't playing video games. This is a lame excuse for a change that is going to cause an extreme swing in how wars are won and lost. Bad excuse Mike, I swear sometimes the stuff you people say... It's like you think we are stupid.

    This comment is up there with the comment about aq timers at 30 mins being detrimental to the player base...i actually think this one is worse.

    What are you talking about?! They are trying to make lame excuses about why they are setting us up to do war against everyone's wallets and the answer is "cause it feels bad to lose"

    That's lame...

    Mikes comment not yours. I was just piggy backing off your comment.
  • AmonthirAmonthir Posts: 740 ★★★
    Yrocks2001 wrote: »
    With Kills no longer counting against opponents how do you plan to curb the two currently rarely used AW exploits.

    Ironman/SIM exploit where opponent lets fight timer run out while above health recovery threshold (after it has already been proc'd) so now opponent can get another regen the next fight and this won't count against them at all.

    Leaving app exploit where opponent goes to the matchup screen then leaves the app until the minute timer expires then goes back in to see exact opponent they are fighting. This used to at least count as a kill but takes no health from opponent.

    The first one is going to be unpunished (Albeit still risky with Assassin on Defenders), and I think they shut down the second one quite some time ago to where it eats half your health.
  • TheBaldAvengerTheBaldAvenger Posts: 228 ★★
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.[/color]

    If that was the goal of removing defender kills, what about changing the defender kill stat so it awards points to the other team for every champion revived instead. That way, your goal is satisfied in the sense that it doesn't cost a player anything to use the three attackers they brought with them, and there's no penalty for pushing forward if you still have attackers alive. The defenders only get points if you revive an attacker, either because you want to use a dead attacker or because all of your attackers are dead and you want to continue fighting.

    That would seem to be a reasonable compromise between the goal you state and the desire for players to get credit for placing strong defenders. If you attack and die, you can still attack with your two remaining perfectly healthy attackers without penalty.

    This is actually a really great idea and should 100% be implemented.
  • Haji_SaabHaji_Saab Posts: 3,516 ★★★★★
    What are you doing about mystic wars? Have you addressed the connection between dexterity and MD?

    Unless it is addressed, its the same but only more difficult because of 5 bosses.
  • AmonthirAmonthir Posts: 740 ★★★
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.

    If that was the goal of removing defender kills, what about changing the defender kill stat so it awards points to the other team for every champion revived instead. That way, your goal is satisfied in the sense that it doesn't cost a player anything to use the three attackers they brought with them, and there's no penalty for pushing forward if you still have attackers alive. The defenders only get points if you revive an attacker, either because you want to use a dead attacker or because all of your attackers are dead and you want to continue fighting.

    That would seem to be a reasonable compromise between the goal you state and the desire for players to get credit for placing strong defenders. If you attack and die, you can still attack with your two remaining perfectly healthy attackers without penalty.

    That would work out well enough, I think. As long as we benefit in points from our strong Defenders killing champs, and get to still see how many they kill (don't let that information disappear again!), that would satisfy me enough.
  • ljainljain Posts: 11
    edited August 2017
    Wow kabam, by removing the defender kills points you proved that you are nothing but a money greedy organization whose sole aim is to pocket as much money from rich players as it can. Most of the players in my alliance are not rich enough to spend money on the game, so basically now we will lose out almost every alliance war. Players with no skill but lot of cash will keep reviving and win easily.
    Thank you kabam, from the bottom of my heart thank you.
  • Balm82Balm82 Posts: 181
    With the introduction of 6* the 4* are now not worth grinding for, so we all have less BC & less units making AW harder & map6 a waste of time. I think ive had enough, cant be bothered with the bait & switch routine.

    1. BW Was God tier so was highly sort after to take down Thorns.
    2. She got nerfed to make thorns harder.
    3. Everyone ranked Mutants to place on Thorns to make BW useless.
    4. Now your nerf thorns to make the ranked mutants redundant.
    5. Which in turns make my max Vision a waste as i mainly ranked him to face the mutants in AW.

    If any of you actually played the game you would know this.

    If you made AW about winning, then the spending would natrually come. When u go down the spend to win route then we make plans with the other alliance to deafeat kabam.

    How about a 10% perm boost for the top 200 alliances to stop shell alliances or a bigger share of the rewards for being MVP
  • KruggKrugg Posts: 16
    Don't say that they will do something to screw that up.
  • LilMaddogHTLilMaddogHT Posts: 294 ★★★
    I like the reduced timer from 90min to 60min but help me on the math here.... 1.5x the map size, so 50% increase but the decrease on the timer is 33%. If the map is 1.5x as big, the timer would be 45min to make things equal... The fact that everything isn't supposed to be noded up to advance supposed to make up the difference?
  • DD2DD2 Posts: 309 ★★★
    edited August 2017
    Krugg wrote: »
    Don't say that they will do something to screw that up.

    You mean like bring Ultron's regen percentage "in line" with other champs like IM and SIM? :P

    Or scratch that...heal block on every node! lmao
  • LocoMotivesLocoMotives Posts: 1,200 ★★★
    I like the reduced timer from 90min to 60min but help me on the math here.... 1.5x the map size, so 50% increase but the decrease on the timer is 33%. If the map is 1.5x as big, the timer would be 45min to make things equal... The fact that everything isn't supposed to be noded up to advance supposed to make up the difference?

    You let us worry about the math, big guy. But you tried, and failing does not mean Kabam gets more pts so all good :)
  • HulksmasshhHulksmasshh Posts: 742 ★★★
    @Kabam Miike You know most of backlash and negative posts would have been avoided if you guys announced a change to the AW rewards along with the new map. Don't have to include 6* shards yet if you guys are not ready. But with an increase in rewards, people would be thinking "Damn AW just got harder but the payout for winning got better too." So now you have a situation where AW's increase in difficulty (at least in people's minds) is met with an increase in rewards. But you guys have basically made AW harder and more expensive without any benefit or reward to the player so of course people would feel upset.
  • RvzRvz Posts: 41
    Amonthir wrote: »
    Another edit! You specifically mentioned Increased Energy Damage nodes. Please define what will count in that case. Is it attacks only (IM L2, for instance)? Or will it boost damage from Limbo and Coldsnap?

    So, this one is a "little from Column A, a little from Column B" situation. Enhanced Energy nodes are only effective on Hit, but also affect anything caused by that hit. So the Coldsnap applied from Iceman's Special 1 will be stronger, but the Coldsnap that begins at the start of a fight with an Awakened Iceman will not.

    Limbo shouldn't be affected at all.

    LOL!!! What this means is that you haven't tested the two most powerful energy damage champs in the game yet to see if they're affected by your new update?

    I'm sorry, but I don't get what you mean. We just told you how Enhanced Energy affects these two Champions.

    You stated that Limbo "shouldn't" be affected...that's not "limbo WILL NOT be affected". You're leaving a hanging chad out there in the event the devs cannot get it to act properly. Creating yet another "working as intended" situation.

    Also, the Coldsnap is a debuff placed on the opponent as the result of a hit...the Coldsnap is not a "hit" in itself and should not be affect by an increased energy node.

    Do you now get what I mean?

    Limbo is not affected, but a debuff placed on the opponent by a hit is affected. Not just Coldsnap, but any Debuff that deals energy damage that is caused by a hit will be affected.

    so that means mordo on that node will now destroy you with his L3.
  • Amonthir wrote: »
    Agree, keep Defender Kills. Give us a preview of map and nodes so we can discuss them, and you can make adjustments before it goes live. Don't pull the 'but we like surprises!' thing, this is need to know, need to discuss information. Make double and triple and double-triple sure the portals function correctly.

    Unfortunately, there won't be any more information on Nodes made available at this time. Sorry guys, but you're going to have to wait and see! We've gone through many revisions on them already to ensure that they are not too punishing, and that they are enjoyable to play, while still sticking to that goal of playing up Champion archetypes.

    But miike, it seems based on this update, whoever is willing to spend more $ wins. No defender kill points?? stupid! 5 mini bosses, still bringing 3 attackers? now there will be 6 magiks as bosses with increased energy damage, on a bigger map with more battles???? $$ wins here. Going to be near impossible to win a war without $.

    Well as long as there's still a limit on item use, it won't be unlimited spending from the big spending alliances. It will still play a factor though, no doubt
  • AmonthirAmonthir Posts: 740 ★★★
    Rvz wrote: »
    Amonthir wrote: »
    Another edit! You specifically mentioned Increased Energy Damage nodes. Please define what will count in that case. Is it attacks only (IM L2, for instance)? Or will it boost damage from Limbo and Coldsnap?

    So, this one is a "little from Column A, a little from Column B" situation. Enhanced Energy nodes are only effective on Hit, but also affect anything caused by that hit. So the Coldsnap applied from Iceman's Special 1 will be stronger, but the Coldsnap that begins at the start of a fight with an Awakened Iceman will not.

    Limbo shouldn't be affected at all.

    LOL!!! What this means is that you haven't tested the two most powerful energy damage champs in the game yet to see if they're affected by your new update?

    I'm sorry, but I don't get what you mean. We just told you how Enhanced Energy affects these two Champions.

    You stated that Limbo "shouldn't" be affected...that's not "limbo WILL NOT be affected". You're leaving a hanging chad out there in the event the devs cannot get it to act properly. Creating yet another "working as intended" situation.

    Also, the Coldsnap is a debuff placed on the opponent as the result of a hit...the Coldsnap is not a "hit" in itself and should not be affect by an increased energy node.

    Do you now get what I mean?

    Limbo is not affected, but a debuff placed on the opponent by a hit is affected. Not just Coldsnap, but any Debuff that deals energy damage that is caused by a hit will be affected.

    so that means mordo on that node will now destroy you with his L3.

    Is his L3 Energy damage? I never know how to find out what attacks are what damage without hitting an Ultron with them, but I don't think Ultron heals from any L3, even if obviously Energy, like Storm's. But he throws you into a physical tentacle monster... which is mystical in nature... in the mirror world... Oh well, buy a Power Start Boost, Power Lock him with Magik, and never find out =D
  • I like the reduced timer from 90min to 60min but help me on the math here.... 1.5x the map size, so 50% increase but the decrease on the timer is 33%. If the map is 1.5x as big, the timer would be 45min to make things equal... The fact that everything isn't supposed to be noded up to advance supposed to make up the difference?

    A 33% decrease in timer duration equals a 50% increase in energy.

    Simplest way to illustrate: in three hours a 90 minute timer generates 2 points of energy. A 60 minute timer generates 3 points of energy.

    Double check: if you increased the map size by 100% you wouldn't decrease the timer by 100%. That would make the timer zero and you'd get an infinite amount of energy constantly. If you increased the map size by 200% you wouldn't decrease the timer by 200%: that would make the timer negative. Instead you'd decrease the timer by 67% which would make energy generation three times as high as original (200% more).
  • Balm82Balm82 Posts: 181
    @Kabam Miike You know most of backlash and negative posts would have been avoided if you guys announced a change to the AW rewards along with the new map. Don't have to include 6* shards yet if you guys are not ready. But with an increase in rewards, people would be thinking "Damn AW just got harder but the payout for winning got better too." So now you have a situation where AW's increase in difficulty (at least in people's minds) is met with an increase in rewards. But you guys have basically made AW harder and more expensive without any benefit or reward to the player so of course people would feel upset.

    They post the bad news first EVERYTIME to see what the backlash will be & how much they can get away with. Plus it makes the good news seem awesome when its finally released.
  • SkyRattlersSkyRattlers Posts: 56
    Miike, the bottom line is that these changes you have made are not ones that are good for the players.

    We now have to fight 5 minibosses. Which means every alliance needs 15 summoners with the ability to kill a miniboss. There is a very high chance that boss kills will go down for alliances that don't spend and it's reasonable to expect that alliance that do spend will see no change or perhaps even an increase in their boss kill rate.

    Removing defender kill points. You claim this is to save us from feeling defeated. Having that penalty for dying a lot is absolutely needed in wars. That is one of the primary means which gave AW a sense of strategic gameplay. By taking it away there is now zero strategy left in AW.

    Increase map size / decrease timers. This is a complete wash. There is zero benefit to us. Our paths are longer but you've given us a little more energy to do it. In fact this has the potential to easily result in a major negative. If we now have to manage our energy and get online and move just to use it then AW becomes more like AQ where we have to be online a lot more. I guess we won't know for sure until we see the new map.

    Enhanced Poison / Extra energy. Has anyone ever been bothered by enhanced poison? There is currently one of those nodes only 4 moves into the map. More than half our alliance has a highly ranked CM, Hyperion, Ultron, etc. to handle it. It's one of the easiest nodes on the whole map. Extra energy? That's awesome...lets give Magik and Hyperion some new ways to gain power and become more difficult.

    Diversity points. Unless you make this a significant factor in scoring then it's a meaningless gesture. No alliance I have ever been a part of has ever once considered what ranking our defenders were in order to increase our Defender Rating score. And that's because the points gained/lost from that category almost never have any impact in the final tally. So if Diversity Points is similar then it's another wasted effort on your part.

    Somewhere in your calculations on how in increase revenue for this game you have to factor in player enjoyment. What percentage of players will you lose vs the increase spending from those who stay.

    2017 has not been a good year for this game. Way too many changes for the worse. Lets hope you start listening and finish off the year on a more positive note.
  • Amonthir wrote: »
    Agree, keep Defender Kills. Give us a preview of map and nodes so we can discuss them, and you can make adjustments before it goes live. Don't pull the 'but we like surprises!' thing, this is need to know, need to discuss information. Make double and triple and double-triple sure the portals function correctly.

    Unfortunately, there won't be any more information on Nodes made available at this time. Sorry guys, but you're going to have to wait and see! We've gone through many revisions on them already to ensure that they are not too punishing, and that they are enjoyable to play, while still sticking to that goal of playing up Champion archetypes.

    But miike, it seems based on this update, whoever is willing to spend more $ wins. No defender kill points?? stupid! 5 mini bosses, still bringing 3 attackers? now there will be 6 magiks as bosses with increased energy damage, on a bigger map with more battles???? $$ wins here. Going to be near impossible to win a war without $.

    Well as long as there's still a limit on item use, it won't be unlimited spending from the big spending alliances. It will still play a factor though, no doubt

    I have always felt that the item limit encourages spending in an indirect way. Because you have a limit on the number of potions you can use, you are encouraged to not use the tiny ones unless you really think you can get away with it. You're discouraged from using too many small potions to keep yourself alive and therefore more likely to die which requires using more expensive revives. The cap does limit the maximum amount you spend, but below that limit I have always felt it often encourages spending on larger potions to make best use of the limited number you're allowed to use.

    I don't use potions often in AW, but when I do it is not often the tiny ones I'm always overflowing with. I'm more likely to buy the larger ones with units for best bang for the buck.
  • Im kinda looking forward to these changes, 5 minis may not neccecarily mean that all will be super "buffed" some might be lower than others and the buffs from the nodes are different.
    But i do agree with everyone on that defence kill count. Its about having the skill to tackle it or if not then wait and strategise for someone else to take him out, not just pull out your wallet to take him down.

    But one thing i would like to see is some regen buff node somewhere in the map, like "regen abilities (also salve and wp) will regen 50-100% more. Cause that would bring some diversity to the champs, either you place someone who has heavy regen or someone who has wp, Its suppoused to be like that you pick your roaster to match a specific path. Not just flying all over the place.
  • jsds23jsds23 Posts: 9
    Will AW alliance ranking be reset?
  • GreywardenGreywarden Posts: 641 ★★★
    Removing defender kills is probably the biggest thing in my eyes. Not sure why anybody would care about thinking through good placement if there is no real benefit. When you're doing placement you are doing your best to give the other group a harder time but if they can just revive through it with no consequence i.e. points for the other team then what is the real goal other than forcing people to use items.
  • Balm82Balm82 Posts: 181
    Dont go using any exploits you will be penelised but feel free to use the bugs, the ones that make the game harder at least
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