Human Torch Map5 AQ needs to be toned down......hes too powerful as a sub boss!

AJ_Engel30

This guy is ridiculous. Buffet is supposed to be ever 7 seconds. He had 1% left. I go in with a bad matchup in Medusa, but it's just 1% right. No, he instantly regenerated 15%. Not even 1 second had passed. @kabammike where are the other 6 seconds??? Every 7 seconds is Buffet, NOT INSTANT!

AJ_Engel30

So someone disagrees with my post, but doesn't comment. Please, if I'm wrong then explain how. Buffet states every 7 seconds. Doesn't mention instant.

DL864

Ultimatheory said:

Spark should work as well. He will outdamage buffet with enough poise and helps if you mistime dodging a special. Avoid using SP2.

No he wont lol

Rigid

Lol, of course there are a few "ways" to get him down. The point though is that he is too much for map 5. Should be several ways to get him down without 10 people having to just throw their teams at him.

Not enough champs immune to incinerate, the heal blockers are definitely not and push him into nova before they become effective, and the buffet is "extreme" especially with his specials requiring multiple dogdes.

StevieManWonder

I also want to add that while Mister Fantastic is a great counter for this HT, Mister Fantastic is currently incredibly bugged and that makes him really annoying to play, specifically against this HT. Your heavies are supposed to pause all your prefight debuffs, which if you're fighting this HT, you want all three active, but he only pauses the Petrifies and not the other two. This causes the other to fall off faster and makes it really difficult because you need to be super aggressive to keep all the debuffs up. To make it worse, his sp2 will sometimes not apply more debuffs too, so you can launch an sp2 with 1 of each debuff active and end it with 1 petrify, 2 debuff siphoners, and 1 Power Rate debuff instead of 2 of each.

Knorr7227

Mirage_Turtle said:

Thanks for the picture @Knorr7227 . It doesn't appear to me that any of the additional nodes would prevent a person from using any of the counters I listed.

andrade5184 said:

H3t3r said:

Wouldnt void work just play passive. Kind of like playing against 6.2.5 mordo

Void works if you play perfectly and there is no room for error. voids sp1 gives him 2 smolder charges so using it is a bad idea. this mini boss is way to op. we already have doom and all those doom bots which already suck you dont need to throw in a miniboss with insane regen that has very few counters. this one is worse than when you tried to make us fight hyperion with oscillate and power lock at the start of the fight. please fix soon i have already wasted crazy amounts of potions, revives and units only to watch someone go in and have his health doubled.

Respectfully, what am I missing about Void? Like I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I'd say Void should start the fight by launching an early L1 to get his Intimidating Presence debuffs going. After this, just hold your specials so you don't give him additional smolder charges. Save for an L3 and use it when you're going to finish the fight.

Once 2 petrifies are up, the buffet will no longer be healing him. If you have despair, it'll be actively harmful to Torch. Use that to your advantage. When the buffet cooldown timer is done, intentionally trigger a dexterity for the precision buff to add some extra damage. Once Fear of the Void triggers and you have petrify debuffs, he'll start taking a ton of damage for each buffet triggered.

Void is naturally incinerate immune, so his block proficiency will never be reduced. Torch is not stun immune and doesn't even have limber. Torch is typically eager to throw his L1 as well, so you likely won't have to work hard to bait specials. And the L1 is punishable, so you get a lot of openings to attack. Plus, if you held off on throwing additional specials, he'll be at 2 Smolder charges. That means you can block 5 L1's before he goes Nova. You should be evading his L1's, but you've got a cushion of messing up 5 times before anything really bad happens.

I'm not trying to talk down to anyone. I'm just trying to help. Based on what I see, I think Void would be my preferred counter for this fight and I don't see it taking longer than 2.5 minutes to get him down (I'd estimate less than 2 minutes with good petrify RNG). Buffet works in Void's favor. Why does Void require "perfect play" to get the job done?

My best guess is Torch's L1 is the problem. Is that it? If you're having trouble evading and punishing it, I'd highly suggest dueling him a lot until you get it down. It makes Torch everywhere else very manageable.

Please, if I'm missing something, let me know.

@Mirage_Turtle IIRC, Voids attacks are energy-based even his basic attacks, so even if you do a 5 hit combo on HT to reach Voids L1, HT will already have his temperature raised by 20, after the combo and be at or close to 7 smoulders..every energy-based hits (whether HT blocks them or takes the hit) it increases HTs temperature by 5 and automatically places a smolder on HT. So by the time you get to a L1 for Void, HT can already place a Nova flame passive on Void.. and even incinerate immune champs take damage from the Nova flame which deals energy-based damage, which I've been using Havok (incinerate immune) and gets destroyed by the Nova flame. Even Iceman takes damage from Nova Flame So it's a tough fight especially since not everyone has great RNG luck with champ pulls to use for counters.

@Mike192 I didn't even think of Warlock, he's one champ I do have at R5 that I will try next cycle HT is mini, thanks for the suggestion.

Mauled

Had pretty good results using Gulk Sp1 for the heal block.

If you time it right with CMM you can do a lot of damage - trigger dex on 23 binary then parry.

It does feel more like a Map 6/7 mini than a Map 5 one. I did have a nasty shock as I usually just bring one decent champ as a reserve and 2 random ones that aren’t going into AQ/AW or have any chance of going into 6.4 exploration

pseudosane

Knorr7227 said:

Mirage_Turtle said:

Thanks for the picture @Knorr7227 . It doesn't appear to me that any of the additional nodes would prevent a person from using any of the counters I listed.

andrade5184 said:

H3t3r said:

Wouldnt void work just play passive. Kind of like playing against 6.2.5 mordo

Void works if you play perfectly and there is no room for error. voids sp1 gives him 2 smolder charges so using it is a bad idea. this mini boss is way to op. we already have doom and all those doom bots which already suck you dont need to throw in a miniboss with insane regen that has very few counters. this one is worse than when you tried to make us fight hyperion with oscillate and power lock at the start of the fight. please fix soon i have already wasted crazy amounts of potions, revives and units only to watch someone go in and have his health doubled.

Respectfully, what am I missing about Void? Like I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I'd say Void should start the fight by launching an early L1 to get his Intimidating Presence debuffs going. After this, just hold your specials so you don't give him additional smolder charges. Save for an L3 and use it when you're going to finish the fight.

Once 2 petrifies are up, the buffet will no longer be healing him. If you have despair, it'll be actively harmful to Torch. Use that to your advantage. When the buffet cooldown timer is done, intentionally trigger a dexterity for the precision buff to add some extra damage. Once Fear of the Void triggers and you have petrify debuffs, he'll start taking a ton of damage for each buffet triggered.

Void is naturally incinerate immune, so his block proficiency will never be reduced. Torch is not stun immune and doesn't even have limber. Torch is typically eager to throw his L1 as well, so you likely won't have to work hard to bait specials. And the L1 is punishable, so you get a lot of openings to attack. Plus, if you held off on throwing additional specials, he'll be at 2 Smolder charges. That means you can block 5 L1's before he goes Nova. You should be evading his L1's, but you've got a cushion of messing up 5 times before anything really bad happens.

I'm not trying to talk down to anyone. I'm just trying to help. Based on what I see, I think Void would be my preferred counter for this fight and I don't see it taking longer than 2.5 minutes to get him down (I'd estimate less than 2 minutes with good petrify RNG). Buffet works in Void's favor. Why does Void require "perfect play" to get the job done?

My best guess is Torch's L1 is the problem. Is that it? If you're having trouble evading and punishing it, I'd highly suggest dueling him a lot until you get it down. It makes Torch everywhere else very manageable.

Please, if I'm missing something, let me know.

@Mirage_Turtle IIRC, Voids attacks are energy-based even his basic attacks, so even if you do a 5 hit combo on HT to reach Voids L1, HT will already have his temperature raised by 20, after the combo and be at or close to 7 smoulders..every energy-based hits (whether HT blocks them or takes the hit) it increases HTs temperature by 5 and automatically places a smolder on HT. So by the time you get to a L1 for Void, HT can already place a Nova flame passive on Void.. and even incinerate immune champs take damage from the Nova flame which deals energy-based damage, which I've been using Havok (incinerate immune) and gets destroyed by the Nova flame. Even Iceman takes damage from Nova Flame So it's a tough fight especially since not everyone has great RNG luck with champ pulls to use for counters.

@Mike192 I didn't even think of Warlock, he's one champ I do have at R5 that I will try next cycle HT is mini, thanks for the suggestion.

That is false. Void's special attacks are energy based, his basic hits are physical.

Mirage_Turtle

Knorr7227 said:

Mirage_Turtle said:

Thanks for the picture @Knorr7227 . It doesn't appear to me that any of the additional nodes would prevent a person from using any of the counters I listed.

andrade5184 said:

H3t3r said:

Wouldnt void work just play passive. Kind of like playing against 6.2.5 mordo

Void works if you play perfectly and there is no room for error. voids sp1 gives him 2 smolder charges so using it is a bad idea. this mini boss is way to op. we already have doom and all those doom bots which already suck you dont need to throw in a miniboss with insane regen that has very few counters. this one is worse than when you tried to make us fight hyperion with oscillate and power lock at the start of the fight. please fix soon i have already wasted crazy amounts of potions, revives and units only to watch someone go in and have his health doubled.

Respectfully, what am I missing about Void? Like I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I'd say Void should start the fight by launching an early L1 to get his Intimidating Presence debuffs going. After this, just hold your specials so you don't give him additional smolder charges. Save for an L3 and use it when you're going to finish the fight.

Once 2 petrifies are up, the buffet will no longer be healing him. If you have despair, it'll be actively harmful to Torch. Use that to your advantage. When the buffet cooldown timer is done, intentionally trigger a dexterity for the precision buff to add some extra damage. Once Fear of the Void triggers and you have petrify debuffs, he'll start taking a ton of damage for each buffet triggered.

Void is naturally incinerate immune, so his block proficiency will never be reduced. Torch is not stun immune and doesn't even have limber. Torch is typically eager to throw his L1 as well, so you likely won't have to work hard to bait specials. And the L1 is punishable, so you get a lot of openings to attack. Plus, if you held off on throwing additional specials, he'll be at 2 Smolder charges. That means you can block 5 L1's before he goes Nova. You should be evading his L1's, but you've got a cushion of messing up 5 times before anything really bad happens.

I'm not trying to talk down to anyone. I'm just trying to help. Based on what I see, I think Void would be my preferred counter for this fight and I don't see it taking longer than 2.5 minutes to get him down (I'd estimate less than 2 minutes with good petrify RNG). Buffet works in Void's favor. Why does Void require "perfect play" to get the job done?

My best guess is Torch's L1 is the problem. Is that it? If you're having trouble evading and punishing it, I'd highly suggest dueling him a lot until you get it down. It makes Torch everywhere else very manageable.

Please, if I'm missing something, let me know.

@Mirage_Turtle IIRC, Voids attacks are energy-based even his basic attacks, so even if you do a 5 hit combo on HT to reach Voids L1, HT will already have his temperature raised by 20, after the combo and be at or close to 7 smoulders..every energy-based hits (whether HT blocks them or takes the hit) it increases HTs temperature by 5 and automatically places a smolder on HT. So by the time you get to a L1 for Void, HT can already place a Nova flame passive on Void.. and even incinerate immune champs take damage from the Nova flame which deals energy-based damage, which I've been using Havok (incinerate immune) and gets destroyed by the Nova flame. Even Iceman takes damage from Nova Flame So it's a tough fight especially since not everyone has great RNG luck with champ pulls to use for counters.

@Mike192 I didn't even think of Warlock, he's one champ I do have at R5 that I will try next cycle HT is mini, thanks for the suggestion.

@pseudosane has it right. Luckily for you, you're mistaken about Void @Knorr7227

Only Void's specials will add Smolder charges to Human Torch.

H3t3r

Knorr7227 said:

Mirage_Turtle said:

Thanks for the picture @Knorr7227 . It doesn't appear to me that any of the additional nodes would prevent a person from using any of the counters I listed.

andrade5184 said:

H3t3r said:

Wouldnt void work just play passive. Kind of like playing against 6.2.5 mordo

Void works if you play perfectly and there is no room for error. voids sp1 gives him 2 smolder charges so using it is a bad idea. this mini boss is way to op. we already have doom and all those doom bots which already suck you dont need to throw in a miniboss with insane regen that has very few counters. this one is worse than when you tried to make us fight hyperion with oscillate and power lock at the start of the fight. please fix soon i have already wasted crazy amounts of potions, revives and units only to watch someone go in and have his health doubled.

Respectfully, what am I missing about Void? Like I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I'd say Void should start the fight by launching an early L1 to get his Intimidating Presence debuffs going. After this, just hold your specials so you don't give him additional smolder charges. Save for an L3 and use it when you're going to finish the fight.

Once 2 petrifies are up, the buffet will no longer be healing him. If you have despair, it'll be actively harmful to Torch. Use that to your advantage. When the buffet cooldown timer is done, intentionally trigger a dexterity for the precision buff to add some extra damage. Once Fear of the Void triggers and you have petrify debuffs, he'll start taking a ton of damage for each buffet triggered.

Void is naturally incinerate immune, so his block proficiency will never be reduced. Torch is not stun immune and doesn't even have limber. Torch is typically eager to throw his L1 as well, so you likely won't have to work hard to bait specials. And the L1 is punishable, so you get a lot of openings to attack. Plus, if you held off on throwing additional specials, he'll be at 2 Smolder charges. That means you can block 5 L1's before he goes Nova. You should be evading his L1's, but you've got a cushion of messing up 5 times before anything really bad happens.

I'm not trying to talk down to anyone. I'm just trying to help. Based on what I see, I think Void would be my preferred counter for this fight and I don't see it taking longer than 2.5 minutes to get him down (I'd estimate less than 2 minutes with good petrify RNG). Buffet works in Void's favor. Why does Void require "perfect play" to get the job done?

My best guess is Torch's L1 is the problem. Is that it? If you're having trouble evading and punishing it, I'd highly suggest dueling him a lot until you get it down. It makes Torch everywhere else very manageable.

Please, if I'm missing something, let me know.

@Mirage_Turtle IIRC, Voids attacks are energy-based even his basic attacks, so even if you do a 5 hit combo on HT to reach Voids L1, HT will already have his temperature raised by 20, after the combo and be at or close to 7 smoulders..every energy-based hits (whether HT blocks them or takes the hit) it increases HTs temperature by 5 and automatically places a smolder on HT. So by the time you get to a L1 for Void, HT can already place a Nova flame passive on Void.. and even incinerate immune champs take damage from the Nova flame which deals energy-based damage, which I've been using Havok (incinerate immune) and gets destroyed by the Nova flame. Even Iceman takes damage from Nova Flame So it's a tough fight especially since not everyone has great RNG luck with champ pulls to use for counters.

@Mike192 I didn't even think of Warlock, he's one champ I do have at R5 that I will try next cycle HT is mini, thanks for the suggestion.

Voids basic attacks are not energy attacks lol

Ultimatheory

DL864 said:

Ultimatheory said:

Spark should work as well. He will outdamage buffet with enough poise and helps if you mistime dodging a special. Avoid using SP2.

No he wont lol

Love the amount of disagrees I got on this but yes he can. Build 10 poise at the beginning of the fight. After this stop relying on Dex so much. Stick to MLLL combos and backing up after to set up easy parries if that helps. Build HT to barely below a bar of power. Then next combo use a full combo into SP1 followed by another combo to get him to SP2. When HT launches a SP2 Spark typically evades out of the first half and you can then back up without triggering Dex at all. Worst case is you have to back out of the second half and trigger a Dex but this if pretty rare.

If you get low on poise you can intentionally trigger Dex and build poise back to full. In most of my fights against HT with buffet like this you can typically get off 100k+ damage easily before having to build poise again.

I’m not saying it’s easy and it does require adapting your play style but it is possible. Hope this helps someone out anyway.

Ultimatheory

Another sleeper for buffet is Psylocke. Get your SP1 and lock him down fully and you want have to worry about his specials the rest of the fight. Her SP1 is all physical damage so no worries about building up Smolder.

Knorr7227

@pseudosane I stand corrected..thank you.. for some reason, I thought all his attacks were energy-based..

Panchulon21

I’ve outdamaged him with stark and 10 poise.

Alrulz

I used CapIW with skill champ. Parry. Heavy. Repeat. L2.
Skill synergy shrugs off any incinerates.
Just block the L1, rather than trying to dex it perfectly. Gives you a few more kinetic charges. Also won’t trigger buffet node if you don’t dex.

I was able to solo both mini bosses on day 5. Only took about 20% block damage each time.

You could also bring tech for petrify vs second mini boss

CapIW + skill + tech also a good combo for Doom

Dblstkd1

My alliance is going to stop doing Map 5 when he’s the mini boss. Makes no sense to sacrifice multiple champs just beat one that’s more difficult than the main boss.

Berjibs

He’s really not that bad, there’s multiple options, gets soloed in all 3 BGs in my ally.

Nobody in ally chat has moaned either.

I’ve used warlock and void on him personally.

Void is best, has nobody in your bg got a 5/50+ void?

One chap uses ghost too. I’ll try aegon, see how he works...

Charlie21540

Berjibs said:

He’s really not that bad, there’s multiple options, gets soloed in all 3 BGs in my ally.

Nobody in ally chat has moaned either.

I’ve used warlock and void on him personally.

Void is best, has nobody in your bg got a 5/50+ void?

One chap uses ghost too. I’ll try aegon, see how he works...

Aegon works great, i used him today and got a 1 shot on HT... Had a combo of 71 banked and finished the fight with 68 hits against human torch. Aegon easily out damages the regen.

Berjibs

What rank aegon?

HagureMeijin

I'm yet to fight him but feel BWCV should be a good counter. Since he's bleed immune, she can keep getting to sp3. Or she can take him on in the curse of Hellfire (Maybe this would trigger nova form, so maybe the bleed curse is better?). Will test it out later this week.

Championcritic

AJ_Engel30 said:

This guy is ridiculous. Buffet is supposed to be ever 7 seconds. He had 1% left. I go in with a bad matchup in Medusa, but it's just 1% right. No, he instantly regenerated 15%. Not even 1 second had passed. @kabammike where are the other 6 seconds??? Every 7 seconds is Buffet, NOT INSTANT!

It means that after buffet has consumed its first buff, there is a 7 second recharge before buffet can consume another buff. Buffet can indeed start chewing on buffs from the beginning of the fight.

Marvel2289

Use Bishop, absorb all those energy attacks then throw third attack and destroy lol.

Edeuink

HagureMeijin said:

I'm yet to fight him but feel BWCV should be a good counter. Since he's bleed immune, she can keep getting to sp3. Or she can take him on in the curse of Hellfire (Maybe this would trigger nova form, so maybe the bleed curse is better?). Will test it out later this week.

That won’t work, human torch considers all hits from mystics energy based, so he will gain 5 temp and a smolder every time you strike him. He will be pushed into nova form by spontaneous combustion very quickly and melt Claire with nova flames.

Zuro

LucianoDelHoya said:

Love my Duped 4/45 HT rite no!.

Regards,
Supreme Leader King x

Mate just stop commenting if you're just gonna add nothing to the conversation

Punisher99

Has anyone tried Night Thrasher or Masacre on him?

Panchulon21

DL864 said:

Ultimatheory said:

Spark should work as well. He will outdamage buffet with enough poise and helps if you mistime dodging a special. Avoid using SP2.

No he wont lol

Yes he does. I don’t run map 5 anymore but solod a torch with a rank 5 stark (no suicides) on day 5

Let me edit also. My alliance has a 10k day 1 prestige so it’s not child’s play on day 5.

RiderofHell

The buffet node is overkill. How the hell you suppose to evade his sp1 without getting punished by buffet and secondly dont give them this bs oh but you have a window to evade during 7 sec cooldown well its hard to find the window when the AI is passive every damn time!!!!

Mirage_Turtle

RiderofHell said:

The buffet node is overkill. How the hell you suppose to evade his sp1 without getting punished by buffet and secondly dont give them this bs oh but you have a window to evade during 7 sec cooldown well its hard to find the window when the AI is passive every damn time!!!!

This thread is littered with viable options. You can outdamage buffet, make it so it's not an issue, or actually use it to your advantage. This thread has a lot of helpful suggestions if anyone is struggling.