You're Crazy!

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Comments

  • EdeuinkEdeuink Posts: 787 ★★★
    MaxGaming said:












    I feel like some people in here are going to say that these 4 champs are bad, Agent venom, Iron Patriot, Drax, and CW but Agent Venom has decent bleed and incinerate and good tenticality, Drax has ok Bleed, CW has good Power drain and Heal block, and Iron Patriot has (insert something good) so not bad
    Iron Patriot is the only champ who apply an armor break to himself without being struck.
  • SpideyFunkoSpideyFunko Posts: 5,061 ★★★★★
    MaxGaming said:












    I feel like some people in here are going to say that these 4 champs are bad, Agent venom, Iron Patriot, Drax, and CW but Agent Venom has decent bleed and incinerate and good tenticality, Drax has ok Bleed, CW has good Power drain and Heal block, and Iron Patriot has (insert something good) so not bad
    Iron Patriot hurts himself without getting hit
  • RockypantherxRockypantherx Posts: 1,242 ★★★★

    Not to get political or anything, but blade is definitely overrated and NT is easily the top 3 or top 4 skill champ, depending on how much you like stealth spidey.

    Fight me.

    Depends on who you’re putting above him. AEgon and Fury are, no doubt about that. I would argue Blade is overrated but still beats Thrasher. Stealthy I could maybe see and argument for Thrasher being better, but I would disagree.

    Personally I would put Killmonger above Thrasher as well. Better evade and autoblock counter as well as being tankier and isn’t nearly as reliant on synergies.

    Fight me.
    Killmonger is a better evade and autoblock counter than NT? Come on lol.

    That's just objectively wrong, no offense. NT needs no set up or change in playstyle to counter evade/autoblock, he simply does it. On top of that he has superior damage to both killmonger and blade, much more utility than blade and arguably also more utility than killmonger.

    And NT doesn't rely on synergies at all. His best synergy is with darkhawk, who's also a great champ, but that one only improves his already amazing damage even further.

    1. aegon
    2. fury
    3. thrasher/stealthy

    Then comes anyone else.
    Gonna have to disagree with you here on NT being the superior evade/autoblock counter. It requires you to only use mediums or heavies in your basic combo, meaning you’re either eating a ton of blocked hits or doing one hit combos and intercepting. I would say that’s a change in play style. It’s much easier to just get them to one special, counter it then not worry about it for the rest of the fight. And I wouldn’t say he has more utility than Killmonger. You’re looking realistically at one immunity and a 50% AAR reduction in addition to his skateboard attacks. Taunt may have the occasional use. I guess you could argue the shock for Thunderstruck but that’s hardly widespread

    Killmonger can tank hits, SP3’s, counter the opponent, true strike, massive bleed (Useful for Do You Bleed and Thing/Invisible woman) as well as being stupidly tanky, which with attack values these days is a lifesaver.

    I think you’re also underestimating a mad sig Killmonger’s attack, it’s pretty big. Admittedly, not as large as Night Thrashers but then it doesn’t require as much ramp up.

    Blade I can maybe see him being better than in today’s meta. I know I certainly used Killmonger way more than Blade in 100% Act 6. I have a 6* NT but he’s unduped. So I don’t have the most experience with them admittedly, but from what I’ve seen, I would rank skill

    1.AEgon
    2.Fury
    3. Stealthy
    4. Killmonger
    5. Night Thrasher
    6. Blade

    Don’t get me wrong, he’s a great champion, but I just don’t think he’s as good as those other champs
  • Mr_PlatypusMr_Platypus Posts: 1,618 ★★★★
    edited June 30
    MaxGaming said:












    I feel like some people in here are going to say that these 4 champs are bad, Agent venom, Iron Patriot, Drax, and CW but Agent Venom has decent bleed and incinerate and good tenticality, Drax has ok Bleed, CW has good Power drain and Heal block, and Iron Patriot has (insert something good) so not bad
    I love civil warriors design, I have him at 4/55, but he’s just a discount vision. I really hope he’s on the list for a buff when they start on their 2 buffs a month, even if it’s just a damage increase and making his 4th light attack unevadable what with it being a short range repulsor blast like imiw.
  • StrStr Posts: 532 ★★


    Maxing out my dr strange. Eventually he will hit sig 200. He was ranked up for flow defence diversity for old aw map. A great map 4 counter to silver surfer. He is also fantastic at map 7... oh wait... no he's not. ;)
  • RockypantherxRockypantherx Posts: 1,242 ★★★★

    Not to get political or anything, but blade is definitely overrated and NT is easily the top 3 or top 4 skill champ, depending on how much you like stealth spidey.

    Fight me.

    Depends on who you’re putting above him. AEgon and Fury are, no doubt about that. I would argue Blade is overrated but still beats Thrasher. Stealthy I could maybe see and argument for Thrasher being better, but I would disagree.

    Personally I would put Killmonger above Thrasher as well. Better evade and autoblock counter as well as being tankier and isn’t nearly as reliant on synergies.

    Fight me.
    Killmonger is a better evade and autoblock counter than NT? Come on lol.

    That's just objectively wrong, no offense. NT needs no set up or change in playstyle to counter evade/autoblock, he simply does it. On top of that he has superior damage to both killmonger and blade, much more utility than blade and arguably also more utility than killmonger.

    And NT doesn't rely on synergies at all. His best synergy is with darkhawk, who's also a great champ, but that one only improves his already amazing damage even further.

    1. aegon
    2. fury
    3. thrasher/stealthy

    Then comes anyone else.
    Gonna have to disagree with you here on NT being the superior evade/autoblock counter. It requires you to only use mediums or heavies in your basic combo, meaning you’re either eating a ton of blocked hits or doing one hit combos and intercepting. I would say that’s a change in play style. It’s much easier to just get them to one special, counter it then not worry about it for the rest of the fight. And I wouldn’t say he has more utility than Killmonger. You’re looking realistically at one immunity and a 50% AAR reduction in addition to his skateboard attacks. Taunt may have the occasional use. I guess you could argue the shock for Thunderstruck but that’s hardly widespread

    Killmonger can tank hits, SP3’s, counter the opponent, true strike, massive bleed (Useful for Do You Bleed and Thing/Invisible woman) as well as being stupidly tanky, which with attack values these days is a lifesaver.

    I think you’re also underestimating a mad sig Killmonger’s attack, it’s pretty big. Admittedly, not as large as Night Thrashers but then it doesn’t require as much ramp up.

    Blade I can maybe see him being better than in today’s meta. I know I certainly used Killmonger way more than Blade in 100% Act 6. I have a 6* NT but he’s unduped. So I don’t have the most experience with them admittedly, but from what I’ve seen, I would rank skill

    1.AEgon
    2.Fury
    3. Stealthy
    4. Killmonger
    5. Night Thrasher
    6. Blade

    Don’t get me wrong, he’s a great champion, but I just don’t think he’s as good as those other champs
    That's the thing, though. You said it yourself, your thrasher is unduped and understandably doesn't get used.

    Sticking to mediums and heavy attacks is the way to go with thrasher anyways, since his taunt comes from heavy attacks and his furies come from skateboard attacks (all medium and heavy attacks as well as most special attack hits). Playing him most efficiently means you use up to 1 single light attack per fight to set up his disorientation and that's it. From there on it's intercepts and/or heavy attacks only anyways, which provides him with taunt and a laughably easy ramp up with an amazing payoff.

    Also NT's heavy reach is amazing. There's not much need to purely rely on parry-heavy with him.

    With killmonger you need to do something to set him up as an evade counter. Without synergies you need to punish a special attack, which is literally impossible for a lot of specials. Also you then need to get an evading champ to at least 1 bar of power without getting evaded and smacked.

    Now, yes he does have a synergy to give him true strike on intercepts. Then again, might be an unpopular opinion, but then again that requires you to waste a spot on your team for winter soldier. And you still need to set up his true strike, which is completely depending on ai behavior either way.

    So on the one hand we have NT who simply counters evade/autoblock just by playing him how you would most efficiently play him against non evading/autoblocking opponents anyways and on the other hand we have KM who's evade/autoblock countering needs to be set up and is reliant on ai behavior.

    I'm not saying KM is bad, but even implying he's the superior evade/autoblock counter is just ridiculous.

    As to the utility part, I wholeheartedly disagree with KM having more/better utility. We already got the evade/autoblock countering out of the way, so let's leave that out here. KM best utility aspect is his indestructible.

    Now, how does NT compare to that? He's again superior. Why? Because his powergain combined with his taunt allow him to not care about the opponent's sp3 at all. Really the only instance where KM outshines him in this regard is crazy powergain and in such a scenario I'd probably rather use a proper power controller over either of them.

    With NT you can get a taunt on your opponent and from that point on completely control the fight while permanently increasing your damage by up to +200% before the opponent even reaches 1 bar of power.

    Next thing would be KM's bleed. His sp3 bleed is amazing. But... I mean... That's literally a substitute for his otherwise underwhelming damage. Outside of scenarios like "do you bleed" NT already finished the whole path before KM even set up his big sp3 bleed.

    And while KM's attack increase comes more naturally, first of all it's not up all the time, which it is after being set up for NT, and second of all NT is fully and permanently ramped up after ~20 hits on average. Considering the much bigger payoff I'd again see NT as the superior champ here.

    NT's damage is so great, my 5/65 sig 150ish thrasher completely destroyed the V3 kang. He doesn't care about the attack reduction and he has essentially permanent shock/incinerate and taunt, making him one of the best options for that fight. Which is huge considering how he isn't even a tech champ.

    I also used him to completely control the 6.3.6. cap iw.

    I'd never argue against anyone simply liking KM or blade over NT. But saying they're better requires one to completely ignore what NT can actually do with his kit.
    Once again, you argue that only using heavies and mediums is practical. I really don’t believe it is. You’re either having your block minced or relying on crazy intercepting, and as we see more nodes that require specific play styles, it’s going to become more difficult to use that play style.

    I agree that Killmonger needs the set up but once he is I believe he is far and away the better counter as you can play the fight however you want from there.

    Secondly, you mentioned that some specials can’t be countered normally. Well it’s a good thing that almost all evaders and autoblockers specials can be, and if you’re struggling, that’s why his counterpunch charges exist. So no, I don’t think it’s ridiculous to say he is the superior counter at all. And on a side note, Winter Soldier actually isn’t a wasted spot, I surprisingly enough ended up using him a ton in Act 6 if I brought him with Killmonger.

    Next, you mentioned that his true strike is dependent on AI behaviour yet you say that his taunt is a substitute for the indestructible, despite being much more AI dependent than Killmonger’s true strike. I’d much rather have the indestructible than the taunt because the indestructible is reliant on you and not on the randomness of the AI

    As for ‘underwhelming damage’ I disagree. Killmonger at a high sig throws down, even when you don’t take into account the SP3 bleed. His damage isn’t as good as NT, I won’t dispute that, but don’t underestimate it.

    To me it’s fine if you prefer Night Thrasher but it’s ludicrous to me to suggest Night Thrasher is better. Understandable, but ludicrous none the less
  • WeeHobbit89WeeHobbit89 Posts: 118

    Probably the most powered howard out there
  • RockypantherxRockypantherx Posts: 1,242 ★★★★

    Not to get political or anything, but blade is definitely overrated and NT is easily the top 3 or top 4 skill champ, depending on how much you like stealth spidey.

    Fight me.

    Depends on who you’re putting above him. AEgon and Fury are, no doubt about that. I would argue Blade is overrated but still beats Thrasher. Stealthy I could maybe see and argument for Thrasher being better, but I would disagree.

    Personally I would put Killmonger above Thrasher as well. Better evade and autoblock counter as well as being tankier and isn’t nearly as reliant on synergies.

    Fight me.
    Killmonger is a better evade and autoblock counter than NT? Come on lol.

    That's just objectively wrong, no offense. NT needs no set up or change in playstyle to counter evade/autoblock, he simply does it. On top of that he has superior damage to both killmonger and blade, much more utility than blade and arguably also more utility than killmonger.

    And NT doesn't rely on synergies at all. His best synergy is with darkhawk, who's also a great champ, but that one only improves his already amazing damage even further.

    1. aegon
    2. fury
    3. thrasher/stealthy

    Then comes anyone else.
    Gonna have to disagree with you here on NT being the superior evade/autoblock counter. It requires you to only use mediums or heavies in your basic combo, meaning you’re either eating a ton of blocked hits or doing one hit combos and intercepting. I would say that’s a change in play style. It’s much easier to just get them to one special, counter it then not worry about it for the rest of the fight. And I wouldn’t say he has more utility than Killmonger. You’re looking realistically at one immunity and a 50% AAR reduction in addition to his skateboard attacks. Taunt may have the occasional use. I guess you could argue the shock for Thunderstruck but that’s hardly widespread

    Killmonger can tank hits, SP3’s, counter the opponent, true strike, massive bleed (Useful for Do You Bleed and Thing/Invisible woman) as well as being stupidly tanky, which with attack values these days is a lifesaver.

    I think you’re also underestimating a mad sig Killmonger’s attack, it’s pretty big. Admittedly, not as large as Night Thrashers but then it doesn’t require as much ramp up.

    Blade I can maybe see him being better than in today’s meta. I know I certainly used Killmonger way more than Blade in 100% Act 6. I have a 6* NT but he’s unduped. So I don’t have the most experience with them admittedly, but from what I’ve seen, I would rank skill

    1.AEgon
    2.Fury
    3. Stealthy
    4. Killmonger
    5. Night Thrasher
    6. Blade

    Don’t get me wrong, he’s a great champion, but I just don’t think he’s as good as those other champs
    That's the thing, though. You said it yourself, your thrasher is unduped and understandably doesn't get used.

    Sticking to mediums and heavy attacks is the way to go with thrasher anyways, since his taunt comes from heavy attacks and his furies come from skateboard attacks (all medium and heavy attacks as well as most special attack hits). Playing him most efficiently means you use up to 1 single light attack per fight to set up his disorientation and that's it. From there on it's intercepts and/or heavy attacks only anyways, which provides him with taunt and a laughably easy ramp up with an amazing payoff.

    Also NT's heavy reach is amazing. There's not much need to purely rely on parry-heavy with him.

    With killmonger you need to do something to set him up as an evade counter. Without synergies you need to punish a special attack, which is literally impossible for a lot of specials. Also you then need to get an evading champ to at least 1 bar of power without getting evaded and smacked.

    Now, yes he does have a synergy to give him true strike on intercepts. Then again, might be an unpopular opinion, but then again that requires you to waste a spot on your team for winter soldier. And you still need to set up his true strike, which is completely depending on ai behavior either way.

    So on the one hand we have NT who simply counters evade/autoblock just by playing him how you would most efficiently play him against non evading/autoblocking opponents anyways and on the other hand we have KM who's evade/autoblock countering needs to be set up and is reliant on ai behavior.

    I'm not saying KM is bad, but even implying he's the superior evade/autoblock counter is just ridiculous.

    As to the utility part, I wholeheartedly disagree with KM having more/better utility. We already got the evade/autoblock countering out of the way, so let's leave that out here. KM best utility aspect is his indestructible.

    Now, how does NT compare to that? He's again superior. Why? Because his powergain combined with his taunt allow him to not care about the opponent's sp3 at all. Really the only instance where KM outshines him in this regard is crazy powergain and in such a scenario I'd probably rather use a proper power controller over either of them.

    With NT you can get a taunt on your opponent and from that point on completely control the fight while permanently increasing your damage by up to +200% before the opponent even reaches 1 bar of power.

    Next thing would be KM's bleed. His sp3 bleed is amazing. But... I mean... That's literally a substitute for his otherwise underwhelming damage. Outside of scenarios like "do you bleed" NT already finished the whole path before KM even set up his big sp3 bleed.

    And while KM's attack increase comes more naturally, first of all it's not up all the time, which it is after being set up for NT, and second of all NT is fully and permanently ramped up after ~20 hits on average. Considering the much bigger payoff I'd again see NT as the superior champ here.

    NT's damage is so great, my 5/65 sig 150ish thrasher completely destroyed the V3 kang. He doesn't care about the attack reduction and he has essentially permanent shock/incinerate and taunt, making him one of the best options for that fight. Which is huge considering how he isn't even a tech champ.

    I also used him to completely control the 6.3.6. cap iw.

    I'd never argue against anyone simply liking KM or blade over NT. But saying they're better requires one to completely ignore what NT can actually do with his kit.
    Once again, you argue that only using heavies and mediums is practical. I really don’t believe it is. You’re either having your block minced or relying on crazy intercepting, and as we see more nodes that require specific play styles, it’s going to become more difficult to use that play style.

    I agree that Killmonger needs the set up but once he is I believe he is far and away the better counter as you can play the fight however you want from there.

    Secondly, you mentioned that some specials can’t be countered normally. Well it’s a good thing that almost all evaders and autoblockers specials can be, and if you’re struggling, that’s why his counterpunch charges exist. So no, I don’t think it’s ridiculous to say he is the superior counter at all. And on a side note, Winter Soldier actually isn’t a wasted spot, I surprisingly enough ended up using him a ton in Act 6 if I brought him with Killmonger.

    Next, you mentioned that his true strike is dependent on AI behaviour yet you say that his taunt is a substitute for the indestructible, despite being much more AI dependent than Killmonger’s true strike. I’d much rather have the indestructible than the taunt because the indestructible is reliant on you and not on the randomness of the AI

    As for ‘underwhelming damage’ I disagree. Killmonger at a high sig throws down, even when you don’t take into account the SP3 bleed. His damage isn’t as good as NT, I won’t dispute that, but don’t underestimate it.

    To me it’s fine if you prefer Night Thrasher but it’s ludicrous to me to suggest Night Thrasher is better. Understandable, but ludicrous none the less
    What? Killmongers playstyle is just as intercept reliant than what you appear to believe NT's playstyle is lol. According to your very first paragraph killmonger himself is just as impractical as NT.

    Now, let met clarify this again: it's not that you just can't use light attacks, it's that there simply is no need to considering his design. I genuinely can not think of any situation where m-m intercepts or heavy attacks are innately inferior to your standard m-l-l-l-m combo. I never had any issues with eating to much block damage. I did essentially the whole mesmerize path in what was it? 6.3.? 6.4.? The one with the adaptoid boss. I did that whole path with NT except like 2 fights for which I used quake and I didn't even use a small safety heal along the way.

    NT finishes even act 6 fights so quickly and controls them so well that even just doing parry-heavy and eating some block damage is simply a non-factor for him.

    As to un-punishable specials, there are nodes that can turn any given champ into an evade champ. Without WS have fun dealing with something like punisher 2099 lol. Even those counterstrike charges won't help you there.

    And yes KM's damage is underwhelming. First of all he doesn't have his sig attack bonus, which is already underwhelming by itself, up all the time. Second of all to activate it you need to at least land a parry, which will either also result in the block damage you criticize NT for or it will consume 1 indestructible charge.

    To be fully honest, I'd actually even expect NT with both his bleed synergies to take down the 6.3. medusa faster than killmonger.

    With NT having superior damage, the superior true accuracy (again it is unconditional - it simply works), daar and a full immunity, all that without the need for any synergies, I simply fail to see how anyone could with a straight face suggest someone like KM is straight up the better champ.

    To me personally, someone with a 2/35 aegon, a 5/65 nick fury and a 5/65 NT, pulling KM would offer nothing to my roster.

    For less developed accounts he's certainly a great pull. That is until you pull and awaken night thrasher.
    First off, AI is much more likely to play into a Mlll intercept than a MM in my experience. So actually I would argue KM’s play style is less problematic. What I’m saying is that although you might not need to use light attacks, being unable to utilise them in a evade/autoblock matchup in hindering.

    And actually, counter strike charges will get you that true strike against 95% of champs. Trust me, I’ve tested it extensively

    And I fundamentally disagree with your argument his damage is underwhelming. Is it Ghost? God no. Is it NT’s. Again, God no. But it’s not underwhelming, it’s above average. And the downtime is hardly that long. Having to take a blocked hit as well is less of an issue for KM than night thrasher as he has those charges to utilise and his innate armour and frankly ridiculous healthpool means he is taking very little damage on block.

    And please, go ahead, prove that Night Thrasher could kill it quicker. No videos on YouTube, and personally I wouldn’t want to lug around a guillotine and moon knight to do something that KM can just do very effectively at his base.

    As for your summary, again, I have conceded the damage. That’s fair, but I don’t think Killmonger’s is bad. You say he has unconditional true accuracy but it’s only on skateboard attacks. I call that a damn condition. One I believe is impractical, but hey, you’re the experienced one on Night Thrasher. All I can say is that it seems impractical to me and overly fiddly compared to just true strike and forget. And come on, it’s 50% DAAR. Not exactly reliable. It’s something, but against opponents like thing surely it just makes it more difficult to control his rock stacks. Immunity I’ll give you. Incinerate immunity is nice.

    Again, I’m not saying NT is bad, he’s a great champ, undoubtedly, you’ve shown that in great depth because you obviously have a wealth of experience.

    What I can tell you is that as someone with a 3/45 6* Killmonger, I’ll probably never rank my Night Thrasher, even if I dupe him. Because he doesn’t provide me with anything that KM can’t deal with. I believe the inverse of your statement. I believe Night Thrasher is
    an excellent pull if you can awaken him. Until you pull a Killmonger

    I think the bottom line is this, because otherwise we’re going to round in circles here ad infinitum. I have a lot of experience with Killmonger, I used him incredibly effectively in a lot of the fights you’ve described. I love Killmonger, He’s one of my favourite champions. I’ve never duped a Night Thrasher, so I’ve never used him all that much. Maybe if one day I do, I might end up coming back to this thread and admitting I was wrong.

    You love your Night Thrasher, that much is obvious, and it doesn’t sound like you’ve had a lot of experience with Killmonger. A lot of content out there slams Killmonger. It’s only really once you actually use him do you begin to see just how versatile and valuable he is. He wouldn’t have been my first 5/65 or 2/35, as he actually was, if I didn’t believe he was considering I had other options like Corvus and Blade.

    I think they both fulfil a similar role in this game, and maybe one is better than the other in specific situations. I believe Killmonger is objectively better, that’s what I’ve attempted to outline here. You obviously don’t, and I understand that. Killmonger is not a perfect champion, but neither is Night Thrasher. In the end, maybe it’s just personal preference.

    And you’ve repeatedly said that it has dumbfounded you that someone would suggest Killmonger is the superior champion. Well let me tell you, I’m blown away someone would suggest Night Thrasher is better. Probably to a higher degree than you might expect.

    Can’t wait for the next inevitable thread on most overrated champions...

  • RockypantherxRockypantherx Posts: 1,242 ★★★★

    Not to get political or anything, but blade is definitely overrated and NT is easily the top 3 or top 4 skill champ, depending on how much you like stealth spidey.

    Fight me.

    Depends on who you’re putting above him. AEgon and Fury are, no doubt about that. I would argue Blade is overrated but still beats Thrasher. Stealthy I could maybe see and argument for Thrasher being better, but I would disagree.

    Personally I would put Killmonger above Thrasher as well. Better evade and autoblock counter as well as being tankier and isn’t nearly as reliant on synergies.

    Fight me.
    Killmonger is a better evade and autoblock counter than NT? Come on lol.

    That's just objectively wrong, no offense. NT needs no set up or change in playstyle to counter evade/autoblock, he simply does it. On top of that he has superior damage to both killmonger and blade, much more utility than blade and arguably also more utility than killmonger.

    And NT doesn't rely on synergies at all. His best synergy is with darkhawk, who's also a great champ, but that one only improves his already amazing damage even further.

    1. aegon
    2. fury
    3. thrasher/stealthy

    Then comes anyone else.
    Gonna have to disagree with you here on NT being the superior evade/autoblock counter. It requires you to only use mediums or heavies in your basic combo, meaning you’re either eating a ton of blocked hits or doing one hit combos and intercepting. I would say that’s a change in play style. It’s much easier to just get them to one special, counter it then not worry about it for the rest of the fight. And I wouldn’t say he has more utility than Killmonger. You’re looking realistically at one immunity and a 50% AAR reduction in addition to his skateboard attacks. Taunt may have the occasional use. I guess you could argue the shock for Thunderstruck but that’s hardly widespread

    Killmonger can tank hits, SP3’s, counter the opponent, true strike, massive bleed (Useful for Do You Bleed and Thing/Invisible woman) as well as being stupidly tanky, which with attack values these days is a lifesaver.

    I think you’re also underestimating a mad sig Killmonger’s attack, it’s pretty big. Admittedly, not as large as Night Thrashers but then it doesn’t require as much ramp up.

    Blade I can maybe see him being better than in today’s meta. I know I certainly used Killmonger way more than Blade in 100% Act 6. I have a 6* NT but he’s unduped. So I don’t have the most experience with them admittedly, but from what I’ve seen, I would rank skill

    1.AEgon
    2.Fury
    3. Stealthy
    4. Killmonger
    5. Night Thrasher
    6. Blade

    Don’t get me wrong, he’s a great champion, but I just don’t think he’s as good as those other champs
    That's the thing, though. You said it yourself, your thrasher is unduped and understandably doesn't get used.

    Sticking to mediums and heavy attacks is the way to go with thrasher anyways, since his taunt comes from heavy attacks and his furies come from skateboard attacks (all medium and heavy attacks as well as most special attack hits). Playing him most efficiently means you use up to 1 single light attack per fight to set up his disorientation and that's it. From there on it's intercepts and/or heavy attacks only anyways, which provides him with taunt and a laughably easy ramp up with an amazing payoff.

    Also NT's heavy reach is amazing. There's not much need to purely rely on parry-heavy with him.

    With killmonger you need to do something to set him up as an evade counter. Without synergies you need to punish a special attack, which is literally impossible for a lot of specials. Also you then need to get an evading champ to at least 1 bar of power without getting evaded and smacked.

    Now, yes he does have a synergy to give him true strike on intercepts. Then again, might be an unpopular opinion, but then again that requires you to waste a spot on your team for winter soldier. And you still need to set up his true strike, which is completely depending on ai behavior either way.

    So on the one hand we have NT who simply counters evade/autoblock just by playing him how you would most efficiently play him against non evading/autoblocking opponents anyways and on the other hand we have KM who's evade/autoblock countering needs to be set up and is reliant on ai behavior.

    I'm not saying KM is bad, but even implying he's the superior evade/autoblock counter is just ridiculous.

    As to the utility part, I wholeheartedly disagree with KM having more/better utility. We already got the evade/autoblock countering out of the way, so let's leave that out here. KM best utility aspect is his indestructible.

    Now, how does NT compare to that? He's again superior. Why? Because his powergain combined with his taunt allow him to not care about the opponent's sp3 at all. Really the only instance where KM outshines him in this regard is crazy powergain and in such a scenario I'd probably rather use a proper power controller over either of them.

    With NT you can get a taunt on your opponent and from that point on completely control the fight while permanently increasing your damage by up to +200% before the opponent even reaches 1 bar of power.

    Next thing would be KM's bleed. His sp3 bleed is amazing. But... I mean... That's literally a substitute for his otherwise underwhelming damage. Outside of scenarios like "do you bleed" NT already finished the whole path before KM even set up his big sp3 bleed.

    And while KM's attack increase comes more naturally, first of all it's not up all the time, which it is after being set up for NT, and second of all NT is fully and permanently ramped up after ~20 hits on average. Considering the much bigger payoff I'd again see NT as the superior champ here.

    NT's damage is so great, my 5/65 sig 150ish thrasher completely destroyed the V3 kang. He doesn't care about the attack reduction and he has essentially permanent shock/incinerate and taunt, making him one of the best options for that fight. Which is huge considering how he isn't even a tech champ.

    I also used him to completely control the 6.3.6. cap iw.

    I'd never argue against anyone simply liking KM or blade over NT. But saying they're better requires one to completely ignore what NT can actually do with his kit.
    Once again, you argue that only using heavies and mediums is practical. I really don’t believe it is. You’re either having your block minced or relying on crazy intercepting, and as we see more nodes that require specific play styles, it’s going to become more difficult to use that play style.

    I agree that Killmonger needs the set up but once he is I believe he is far and away the better counter as you can play the fight however you want from there.

    Secondly, you mentioned that some specials can’t be countered normally. Well it’s a good thing that almost all evaders and autoblockers specials can be, and if you’re struggling, that’s why his counterpunch charges exist. So no, I don’t think it’s ridiculous to say he is the superior counter at all. And on a side note, Winter Soldier actually isn’t a wasted spot, I surprisingly enough ended up using him a ton in Act 6 if I brought him with Killmonger.

    Next, you mentioned that his true strike is dependent on AI behaviour yet you say that his taunt is a substitute for the indestructible, despite being much more AI dependent than Killmonger’s true strike. I’d much rather have the indestructible than the taunt because the indestructible is reliant on you and not on the randomness of the AI

    As for ‘underwhelming damage’ I disagree. Killmonger at a high sig throws down, even when you don’t take into account the SP3 bleed. His damage isn’t as good as NT, I won’t dispute that, but don’t underestimate it.

    To me it’s fine if you prefer Night Thrasher but it’s ludicrous to me to suggest Night Thrasher is better. Understandable, but ludicrous none the less
    What? Killmongers playstyle is just as intercept reliant than what you appear to believe NT's playstyle is lol. According to your very first paragraph killmonger himself is just as impractical as NT.

    Now, let met clarify this again: it's not that you just can't use light attacks, it's that there simply is no need to considering his design. I genuinely can not think of any situation where m-m intercepts or heavy attacks are innately inferior to your standard m-l-l-l-m combo. I never had any issues with eating to much block damage. I did essentially the whole mesmerize path in what was it? 6.3.? 6.4.? The one with the adaptoid boss. I did that whole path with NT except like 2 fights for which I used quake and I didn't even use a small safety heal along the way.

    NT finishes even act 6 fights so quickly and controls them so well that even just doing parry-heavy and eating some block damage is simply a non-factor for him.

    As to un-punishable specials, there are nodes that can turn any given champ into an evade champ. Without WS have fun dealing with something like punisher 2099 lol. Even those counterstrike charges won't help you there.

    And yes KM's damage is underwhelming. First of all he doesn't have his sig attack bonus, which is already underwhelming by itself, up all the time. Second of all to activate it you need to at least land a parry, which will either also result in the block damage you criticize NT for or it will consume 1 indestructible charge.

    To be fully honest, I'd actually even expect NT with both his bleed synergies to take down the 6.3. medusa faster than killmonger.

    With NT having superior damage, the superior true accuracy (again it is unconditional - it simply works), daar and a full immunity, all that without the need for any synergies, I simply fail to see how anyone could with a straight face suggest someone like KM is straight up the better champ.

    To me personally, someone with a 2/35 aegon, a 5/65 nick fury and a 5/65 NT, pulling KM would offer nothing to my roster.

    For less developed accounts he's certainly a great pull. That is until you pull and awaken night thrasher.
    First off, AI is much more likely to play into a Mlll intercept than a MM in my experience. So actually I would argue KM’s play style is less problematic. What I’m saying is that although you might not need to use light attacks, being unable to utilise them in a evade/autoblock matchup in hindering.

    And actually, counter strike charges will get you that true strike against 95% of champs. Trust me, I’ve tested it extensively

    And I fundamentally disagree with your argument his damage is underwhelming. Is it Ghost? God no. Is it NT’s. Again, God no. But it’s not underwhelming, it’s above average. And the downtime is hardly that long. Having to take a blocked hit as well is less of an issue for KM than night thrasher as he has those charges to utilise and his innate armour and frankly ridiculous healthpool means he is taking very little damage on block.

    And please, go ahead, prove that Night Thrasher could kill it quicker. No videos on YouTube, and personally I wouldn’t want to lug around a guillotine and moon knight to do something that KM can just do very effectively at his base.

    As for your summary, again, I have conceded the damage. That’s fair, but I don’t think Killmonger’s is bad. You say he has unconditional true accuracy but it’s only on skateboard attacks. I call that a damn condition. One I believe is impractical, but hey, you’re the experienced one on Night Thrasher. All I can say is that it seems impractical to me and overly fiddly compared to just true strike and forget. And come on, it’s 50% DAAR. Not exactly reliable. It’s something, but against opponents like thing surely it just makes it more difficult to control his rock stacks. Immunity I’ll give you. Incinerate immunity is nice.

    Again, I’m not saying NT is bad, he’s a great champ, undoubtedly, you’ve shown that in great depth because you obviously have a wealth of experience.

    What I can tell you is that as someone with a 3/45 6* Killmonger, I’ll probably never rank my Night Thrasher, even if I dupe him. Because he doesn’t provide me with anything that KM can’t deal with. I believe the inverse of your statement. I believe Night Thrasher is
    an excellent pull if you can awaken him. Until you pull a Killmonger

    I think the bottom line is this, because otherwise we’re going to round in circles here ad infinitum. I have a lot of experience with Killmonger, I used him incredibly effectively in a lot of the fights you’ve described. I love Killmonger, He’s one of my favourite champions. I’ve never duped a Night Thrasher, so I’ve never used him all that much. Maybe if one day I do, I might end up coming back to this thread and admitting I was wrong.

    You love your Night Thrasher, that much is obvious, and it doesn’t sound like you’ve had a lot of experience with Killmonger. A lot of content out there slams Killmonger. It’s only really once you actually use him do you begin to see just how versatile and valuable he is. He wouldn’t have been my first 5/65 or 2/35, as he actually was, if I didn’t believe he was considering I had other options like Corvus and Blade.

    I think they both fulfil a similar role in this game, and maybe one is better than the other in specific situations. I believe Killmonger is objectively better, that’s what I’ve attempted to outline here. You obviously don’t, and I understand that. Killmonger is not a perfect champion, but neither is Night Thrasher. In the end, maybe it’s just personal preference.

    And you’ve repeatedly said that it has dumbfounded you that someone would suggest Killmonger is the superior champion. Well let me tell you, I’m blown away someone would suggest Night Thrasher is better. Probably to a higher degree than you might expect.

    Can’t wait for the next inevitable thread on most overrated champions...

    I think you really underestimate NT due to your inexperience with a high sig high ranked version of him.

    And I can see how you feel exactly the same about me and KM.

    Thanks for the nice exchange! At least we can both agree that blade is probably not even a top 6 skill champ anymore, so in that regard I'm fully satisfied lmao.

    Also thanks for giving so much detail on why you see KM as the superior champ. I'm certainly way less inclined to just write him off, if I was to pull him as a 6* now.

    Cheers!
    Yeah, I’m much more interested in getting either 5 or 6 star Night Thrasher awakened now. And Blade has fallen so far, but I always thought he was a bit overrated to begin with. And I hope you do pull a 6* version, although you might prefer a high sig 5*, he’s similar to Night Thrasher in that regard.

    Thanks for the debate! Been a while since I’ve had a good one on here.
  • FRITO_ManFRITO_Man Posts: 396 ★★
    MaxGaming said:












    I feel like some people in here are going to say that these 4 champs are bad, Agent venom, Iron Patriot, Drax, and CW but Agent Venom has decent bleed and incinerate and good tenticality, Drax has ok Bleed, CW has good Power drain and Heal block, and Iron Patriot has (insert something good) so not bad
    Are. You. Kidding. Me
    Drax's so called "bleed" is honestly pathetic. Even my 3* Nick Fury with Deep wounds could do better than drax
    Civil Warrior has a good kit, but is honestly so trash in terms of damage no one will use him.
    Agent Venom's "BLEED" chance is horrible, 50% really? And also the stats are horrible for the bleed and incinerate. "Tenacity" sounds good on paper, but rarely triggers for your benefit any way
    Iron Patriot sucks like a **** so I'm not even going to bother mentioning him in any way or form
  • SpideyFunkoSpideyFunko Posts: 5,061 ★★★★★

    Not to get political or anything, but blade is definitely overrated and NT is easily the top 3 or top 4 skill champ, depending on how much you like stealth spidey.

    Fight me.

    Depends on who you’re putting above him. AEgon and Fury are, no doubt about that. I would argue Blade is overrated but still beats Thrasher. Stealthy I could maybe see and argument for Thrasher being better, but I would disagree.

    Personally I would put Killmonger above Thrasher as well. Better evade and autoblock counter as well as being tankier and isn’t nearly as reliant on synergies.

    Fight me.
    Killmonger is a better evade and autoblock counter than NT? Come on lol.

    That's just objectively wrong, no offense. NT needs no set up or change in playstyle to counter evade/autoblock, he simply does it. On top of that he has superior damage to both killmonger and blade, much more utility than blade and arguably also more utility than killmonger.

    And NT doesn't rely on synergies at all. His best synergy is with darkhawk, who's also a great champ, but that one only improves his already amazing damage even further.

    1. aegon
    2. fury
    3. thrasher/stealthy

    Then comes anyone else.
    Gonna have to disagree with you here on NT being the superior evade/autoblock counter. It requires you to only use mediums or heavies in your basic combo, meaning you’re either eating a ton of blocked hits or doing one hit combos and intercepting. I would say that’s a change in play style. It’s much easier to just get them to one special, counter it then not worry about it for the rest of the fight. And I wouldn’t say he has more utility than Killmonger. You’re looking realistically at one immunity and a 50% AAR reduction in addition to his skateboard attacks. Taunt may have the occasional use. I guess you could argue the shock for Thunderstruck but that’s hardly widespread

    Killmonger can tank hits, SP3’s, counter the opponent, true strike, massive bleed (Useful for Do You Bleed and Thing/Invisible woman) as well as being stupidly tanky, which with attack values these days is a lifesaver.

    I think you’re also underestimating a mad sig Killmonger’s attack, it’s pretty big. Admittedly, not as large as Night Thrashers but then it doesn’t require as much ramp up.

    Blade I can maybe see him being better than in today’s meta. I know I certainly used Killmonger way more than Blade in 100% Act 6. I have a 6* NT but he’s unduped. So I don’t have the most experience with them admittedly, but from what I’ve seen, I would rank skill

    1.AEgon
    2.Fury
    3. Stealthy
    4. Killmonger
    5. Night Thrasher
    6. Blade

    Don’t get me wrong, he’s a great champion, but I just don’t think he’s as good as those other champs
    That's the thing, though. You said it yourself, your thrasher is unduped and understandably doesn't get used.

    Sticking to mediums and heavy attacks is the way to go with thrasher anyways, since his taunt comes from heavy attacks and his furies come from skateboard attacks (all medium and heavy attacks as well as most special attack hits). Playing him most efficiently means you use up to 1 single light attack per fight to set up his disorientation and that's it. From there on it's intercepts and/or heavy attacks only anyways, which provides him with taunt and a laughably easy ramp up with an amazing payoff.

    Also NT's heavy reach is amazing. There's not much need to purely rely on parry-heavy with him.

    With killmonger you need to do something to set him up as an evade counter. Without synergies you need to punish a special attack, which is literally impossible for a lot of specials. Also you then need to get an evading champ to at least 1 bar of power without getting evaded and smacked.

    Now, yes he does have a synergy to give him true strike on intercepts. Then again, might be an unpopular opinion, but then again that requires you to waste a spot on your team for winter soldier. And you still need to set up his true strike, which is completely depending on ai behavior either way.

    So on the one hand we have NT who simply counters evade/autoblock just by playing him how you would most efficiently play him against non evading/autoblocking opponents anyways and on the other hand we have KM who's evade/autoblock countering needs to be set up and is reliant on ai behavior.

    I'm not saying KM is bad, but even implying he's the superior evade/autoblock counter is just ridiculous.

    As to the utility part, I wholeheartedly disagree with KM having more/better utility. We already got the evade/autoblock countering out of the way, so let's leave that out here. KM best utility aspect is his indestructible.

    Now, how does NT compare to that? He's again superior. Why? Because his powergain combined with his taunt allow him to not care about the opponent's sp3 at all. Really the only instance where KM outshines him in this regard is crazy powergain and in such a scenario I'd probably rather use a proper power controller over either of them.

    With NT you can get a taunt on your opponent and from that point on completely control the fight while permanently increasing your damage by up to +200% before the opponent even reaches 1 bar of power.

    Next thing would be KM's bleed. His sp3 bleed is amazing. But... I mean... That's literally a substitute for his otherwise underwhelming damage. Outside of scenarios like "do you bleed" NT already finished the whole path before KM even set up his big sp3 bleed.

    And while KM's attack increase comes more naturally, first of all it's not up all the time, which it is after being set up for NT, and second of all NT is fully and permanently ramped up after ~20 hits on average. Considering the much bigger payoff I'd again see NT as the superior champ here.

    NT's damage is so great, my 5/65 sig 150ish thrasher completely destroyed the V3 kang. He doesn't care about the attack reduction and he has essentially permanent shock/incinerate and taunt, making him one of the best options for that fight. Which is huge considering how he isn't even a tech champ.

    I also used him to completely control the 6.3.6. cap iw.

    I'd never argue against anyone simply liking KM or blade over NT. But saying they're better requires one to completely ignore what NT can actually do with his kit.
    Once again, you argue that only using heavies and mediums is practical. I really don’t believe it is. You’re either having your block minced or relying on crazy intercepting, and as we see more nodes that require specific play styles, it’s going to become more difficult to use that play style.

    I agree that Killmonger needs the set up but once he is I believe he is far and away the better counter as you can play the fight however you want from there.

    Secondly, you mentioned that some specials can’t be countered normally. Well it’s a good thing that almost all evaders and autoblockers specials can be, and if you’re struggling, that’s why his counterpunch charges exist. So no, I don’t think it’s ridiculous to say he is the superior counter at all. And on a side note, Winter Soldier actually isn’t a wasted spot, I surprisingly enough ended up using him a ton in Act 6 if I brought him with Killmonger.

    Next, you mentioned that his true strike is dependent on AI behaviour yet you say that his taunt is a substitute for the indestructible, despite being much more AI dependent than Killmonger’s true strike. I’d much rather have the indestructible than the taunt because the indestructible is reliant on you and not on the randomness of the AI

    As for ‘underwhelming damage’ I disagree. Killmonger at a high sig throws down, even when you don’t take into account the SP3 bleed. His damage isn’t as good as NT, I won’t dispute that, but don’t underestimate it.

    To me it’s fine if you prefer Night Thrasher but it’s ludicrous to me to suggest Night Thrasher is better. Understandable, but ludicrous none the less
    What? Killmongers playstyle is just as intercept reliant than what you appear to believe NT's playstyle is lol. According to your very first paragraph killmonger himself is just as impractical as NT.

    Now, let met clarify this again: it's not that you just can't use light attacks, it's that there simply is no need to considering his design. I genuinely can not think of any situation where m-m intercepts or heavy attacks are innately inferior to your standard m-l-l-l-m combo. I never had any issues with eating to much block damage. I did essentially the whole mesmerize path in what was it? 6.3.? 6.4.? The one with the adaptoid boss. I did that whole path with NT except like 2 fights for which I used quake and I didn't even use a small safety heal along the way.

    NT finishes even act 6 fights so quickly and controls them so well that even just doing parry-heavy and eating some block damage is simply a non-factor for him.

    As to un-punishable specials, there are nodes that can turn any given champ into an evade champ. Without WS have fun dealing with something like punisher 2099 lol. Even those counterstrike charges won't help you there.

    And yes KM's damage is underwhelming. First of all he doesn't have his sig attack bonus, which is already underwhelming by itself, up all the time. Second of all to activate it you need to at least land a parry, which will either also result in the block damage you criticize NT for or it will consume 1 indestructible charge.

    To be fully honest, I'd actually even expect NT with both his bleed synergies to take down the 6.3. medusa faster than killmonger.

    With NT having superior damage, the superior true accuracy (again it is unconditional - it simply works), daar and a full immunity, all that without the need for any synergies, I simply fail to see how anyone could with a straight face suggest someone like KM is straight up the better champ.

    To me personally, someone with a 2/35 aegon, a 5/65 nick fury and a 5/65 NT, pulling KM would offer nothing to my roster.

    For less developed accounts he's certainly a great pull. That is until you pull and awaken night thrasher.
    First off, AI is much more likely to play into a Mlll intercept than a MM in my experience. So actually I would argue KM’s play style is less problematic. What I’m saying is that although you might not need to use light attacks, being unable to utilise them in a evade/autoblock matchup in hindering.

    And actually, counter strike charges will get you that true strike against 95% of champs. Trust me, I’ve tested it extensively

    And I fundamentally disagree with your argument his damage is underwhelming. Is it Ghost? God no. Is it NT’s. Again, God no. But it’s not underwhelming, it’s above average. And the downtime is hardly that long. Having to take a blocked hit as well is less of an issue for KM than night thrasher as he has those charges to utilise and his innate armour and frankly ridiculous healthpool means he is taking very little damage on block.

    And please, go ahead, prove that Night Thrasher could kill it quicker. No videos on YouTube, and personally I wouldn’t want to lug around a guillotine and moon knight to do something that KM can just do very effectively at his base.

    As for your summary, again, I have conceded the damage. That’s fair, but I don’t think Killmonger’s is bad. You say he has unconditional true accuracy but it’s only on skateboard attacks. I call that a damn condition. One I believe is impractical, but hey, you’re the experienced one on Night Thrasher. All I can say is that it seems impractical to me and overly fiddly compared to just true strike and forget. And come on, it’s 50% DAAR. Not exactly reliable. It’s something, but against opponents like thing surely it just makes it more difficult to control his rock stacks. Immunity I’ll give you. Incinerate immunity is nice.

    Again, I’m not saying NT is bad, he’s a great champ, undoubtedly, you’ve shown that in great depth because you obviously have a wealth of experience.

    What I can tell you is that as someone with a 3/45 6* Killmonger, I’ll probably never rank my Night Thrasher, even if I dupe him. Because he doesn’t provide me with anything that KM can’t deal with. I believe the inverse of your statement. I believe Night Thrasher is
    an excellent pull if you can awaken him. Until you pull a Killmonger

    I think the bottom line is this, because otherwise we’re going to round in circles here ad infinitum. I have a lot of experience with Killmonger, I used him incredibly effectively in a lot of the fights you’ve described. I love Killmonger, He’s one of my favourite champions. I’ve never duped a Night Thrasher, so I’ve never used him all that much. Maybe if one day I do, I might end up coming back to this thread and admitting I was wrong.

    You love your Night Thrasher, that much is obvious, and it doesn’t sound like you’ve had a lot of experience with Killmonger. A lot of content out there slams Killmonger. It’s only really once you actually use him do you begin to see just how versatile and valuable he is. He wouldn’t have been my first 5/65 or 2/35, as he actually was, if I didn’t believe he was considering I had other options like Corvus and Blade.

    I think they both fulfil a similar role in this game, and maybe one is better than the other in specific situations. I believe Killmonger is objectively better, that’s what I’ve attempted to outline here. You obviously don’t, and I understand that. Killmonger is not a perfect champion, but neither is Night Thrasher. In the end, maybe it’s just personal preference.

    And you’ve repeatedly said that it has dumbfounded you that someone would suggest Killmonger is the superior champion. Well let me tell you, I’m blown away someone would suggest Night Thrasher is better. Probably to a higher degree than you might expect.

    Can’t wait for the next inevitable thread on most overrated champions...

    I think you really underestimate NT due to your inexperience with a high sig high ranked version of him.

    And I can see how you feel exactly the same about me and KM.

    Thanks for the nice exchange! At least we can both agree that blade is probably not even a top 6 skill champ anymore, so in that regard I'm fully satisfied lmao.

    Also thanks for giving so much detail on why you see KM as the superior champ. I'm certainly way less inclined to just write him off, if I was to pull him as a 6* now.

    Cheers!
    Yeah, I’m much more interested in getting either 5 or 6 star Night Thrasher awakened now. And Blade has fallen so far, but I always thought he was a bit overrated to begin with. And I hope you do pull a 6* version, although you might prefer a high sig 5*, he’s similar to Night Thrasher in that regard.

    Thanks for the debate! Been a while since I’ve had a good one on here.
    that was the most wholesome and fun debate I’ve ever seen on forums
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