Apoc vs haunted. Nerfed(as intended) or bugged?

CoMinow

Obviously it could be a bug, with how broken the game is right now.

If it’s not just broken. mighty charge and now the new haunted node allow for debuffs to be purified? Masochism and mighty charge WERE the content I turned to apocalypse the most for.. so naturally when I see a metal Villain challenge where the defender PURIFIES all debuffs( with a 100% reduction).
Clearly the description states that falter is not affected by ability reduction.


At some point are you going to stop nerfing apocalypse for just his player related abilities? And if not can I get the option to unrank him the next bs nerf you give him?

odishika123

1st cleanse then mighty charge
Not sure about this one since ghost normally phases his damaging debuffs

Qacob

I think the purification is a part of the falter, in which case it too is not affected by ability accuracy reduction, which is how Poco stops purify.

Description is a little unclear, but I'm fairly certain this is working as intended.

Demonzfyre

So you want to rank down one to the best champions in the game because of one node?

I don't see how this interaction isn't working as intended.

Demonzfyre

Zan0 said:

Demonzfyre said:

So you want to rank down one to the best champions in the game because of one node?

I don't see how this interaction isn't working as intended.

Because she can purify his non damaging debuffs even if the nodes state she shouldn't be able to. I think kabam just messed up the description. But if they didn't it's broken

I'm reading it as the falter/dash back part of the node is immune to ability accuracy including the purify part. But looking at it more it does seem like it might be separate mechanics.

ItsDamien

So the falter will happen regardless of her purifying debuffs or not. That part is intended.

Now here's the interesting part, when placing the falter, that's when the debuffs are purified. It seems to me that because this iteration of purify is tied into the falter, and falter cannot be reduced by ability accuracy, it overrides Apocs purify prevention.

I think it's poorly worded, but absolutely intended.

Corkscrew

Working as intended... probably not worded as intended.

Given that it's an SoP challenge, quite sure that they wanted debuffs to be phased and she's essentially a souped up version of herself with tons of access to damage.

Agree with Demonzfyre, he is one of the best champs going around and has so much utility for many other nodes, one node shouldn't burst your bubble.

Demonzfyre

Dissapointed said:

Demonzfyre said:

So you want to rank down one to the best champions in the game because of one node?

I don't see how this interaction isn't working as intended.

First was the cleanse mechanic, then the mighty charge, now this. I am pretty sure Kabam will create another node to 'nerf' his purify ability reduction.
Personally I wouldn't rank him down but what if someone ranked him up just for these nodes?

Then they don't know how this game works and probably making bad decisions all through out the game. We have counters to pretty much every ability for all champions in this game. It's not new. Y'all just wanna use the word nerf for some reason. It's not like every fight going forward will have these exact nodes on every defender. It's not like you still have over 200 other champs to use either.

Overreacting at its finest.

HippoSleek_J

Have you not got it yet?
Let me break it down:
1. Kabam release a new champ with an awesome ability and watch everyone go nuts hunting the champ through 'early access' bundles and ridiculous arena scores.
2. They observe how everyone is plowing through content with said champion.
3. They create nodes and future champs to make that ability less desirable/usefull.
Then rinse and repeat.

Demonzfyre

Dissapointed said:

Demonzfyre said:

Dissapointed said:

Demonzfyre said:

So you want to rank down one to the best champions in the game because of one node?

I don't see how this interaction isn't working as intended.

First was the cleanse mechanic, then the mighty charge, now this. I am pretty sure Kabam will create another node to 'nerf' his purify ability reduction.
Personally I wouldn't rank him down but what if someone ranked him up just for these nodes?

Then they don't know how this game works and probably making bad decisions all through out the game. We have counters to pretty much every ability for all champions in this game. It's not new. Y'all just wanna use the word nerf for some reason. It's not like every fight going forward will have these exact nodes on every defender. It's not like you still have over 200 other champs to use either.

Overreacting at its finest.

Do you know the difference between Counter and Workaround? There is a node and there is a counter on this node.

100% poison damage over 60 sec? You use a poison immune champ. That's a Counter. You use champs that take less damage from poison or they reduce the duration of these debuffs. That's a Workaround.

100% bleed damage over 60 sec? You use a bleed immune champ. That's a counter.
You use champs that take less damage from bleed or they reduce the duration of these debuffs. That's a Workaround.

Do You Bleed node: You use a bleed champ? That's a Counter. You use Corvus or you hit the block? That's a Workaround

Mighty Charge node: You use a cahmps that prevents the opponent from purifying debuffs? That's a Counter. You play with re-parry? That's a Workaround
Apocalypse used to be a Counter to this node but now he just is a Workaround champ

P.s.: I don't know if they right word is 'Workaround', but you get my point

Workaround and counter are the same thing. Everything you said is just how the game works. You find counters to nodes and use those champs. You just don't use Apoc for this fight. There are still plenty of metal villains in the game.

Demonzfyre

HippoSleek_J said:

Have you not got it yet?
Let me break it down:
1. Kabam release a new champ with an awesome ability and watch everyone go nuts hunting the champ through 'early access' bundles and ridiculous arena scores.
2. They observe how everyone is plowing through content with said champion.
3. They create nodes and future champs to make that ability less desirable/usefull.
Then rinse and repeat.

Gotcha. So how long has quake been in the game?

Demonzfyre

Dissapointed said:

Demonzfyre said:

Dissapointed said:

Demonzfyre said:

Dissapointed said:

Demonzfyre said:

So you want to rank down one to the best champions in the game because of one node?

I don't see how this interaction isn't working as intended.

First was the cleanse mechanic, then the mighty charge, now this. I am pretty sure Kabam will create another node to 'nerf' his purify ability reduction.
Personally I wouldn't rank him down but what if someone ranked him up just for these nodes?

Then they don't know how this game works and probably making bad decisions all through out the game. We have counters to pretty much every ability for all champions in this game. It's not new. Y'all just wanna use the word nerf for some reason. It's not like every fight going forward will have these exact nodes on every defender. It's not like you still have over 200 other champs to use either.

Overreacting at its finest.

Do you know the difference between Counter and Workaround? There is a node and there is a counter on this node.

100% poison damage over 60 sec? You use a poison immune champ. That's a Counter. You use champs that take less damage from poison or they reduce the duration of these debuffs. That's a Workaround.

100% bleed damage over 60 sec? You use a bleed immune champ. That's a counter.
You use champs that take less damage from bleed or they reduce the duration of these debuffs. That's a Workaround.

Do You Bleed node: You use a bleed champ? That's a Counter. You use Corvus or you hit the block? That's a Workaround

Mighty Charge node: You use a cahmps that prevents the opponent from purifying debuffs? That's a Counter. You play with re-parry? That's a Workaround.
Apocalypse used to be a Counter to this node but now he just is a Workaround champ

P.s.: I don't know if they right word is 'Workaround', but you get my point

Workaround and counter are the same thing. Everything you said is just how the game works. You find counters to nodes and use those champs. You just don't use Apoc for this fight. There are still plenty of metal villains in the game.

As I explained to you Counter and Workaround isn't the same thing. Counter is a champ that was 'design' to turn off a node. Workaround is a champ that can either 'reduce' the potency of a node or play around it, but NOT turn it off.
And I am not talking about the Metal+Villain objective, but in general.

Agree to disagree. Tootles.

SwarmOfRavens

Dissapointed said:

Demonzfyre said:

Dissapointed said:

Demonzfyre said:

Dissapointed said:

Demonzfyre said:

So you want to rank down one to the best champions in the game because of one node?

I don't see how this interaction isn't working as intended.

First was the cleanse mechanic, then the mighty charge, now this. I am pretty sure Kabam will create another node to 'nerf' his purify ability reduction.
Personally I wouldn't rank him down but what if someone ranked him up just for these nodes?

Then they don't know how this game works and probably making bad decisions all through out the game. We have counters to pretty much every ability for all champions in this game. It's not new. Y'all just wanna use the word nerf for some reason. It's not like every fight going forward will have these exact nodes on every defender. It's not like you still have over 200 other champs to use either.

Overreacting at its finest.

Do you know the difference between Counter and Workaround? There is a node and there is a counter on this node.

100% poison damage over 60 sec? You use a poison immune champ. That's a Counter. You use champs that take less damage from poison or they reduce the duration of these debuffs. That's a Workaround.

100% bleed damage over 60 sec? You use a bleed immune champ. That's a counter.
You use champs that take less damage from bleed or they reduce the duration of these debuffs. That's a Workaround.

Do You Bleed node: You use a bleed champ? That's a Counter. You use Corvus or you hit the block? That's a Workaround

Mighty Charge node: You use a cahmps that prevents the opponent from purifying debuffs? That's a Counter. You play with re-parry? That's a Workaround.
Apocalypse used to be a Counter to this node but now he just is a Workaround champ

P.s.: I don't know if they right word is 'Workaround', but you get my point

Workaround and counter are the same thing. Everything you said is just how the game works. You find counters to nodes and use those champs. You just don't use Apoc for this fight. There are still plenty of metal villains in the game.

As I explained to you Counter and Workaround isn't the same thing. Counter is a champ that was 'design' to turn off a node. Workaround is a champ that can either 'reduce' the potency of a node or play around it, but NOT turn it off.
And I am not talking about the Metal+Villain objective, but in general.

This doesn't work when determining whether something is a "counter" or "workaround" is subjective.

By your definitions shrug off champs would be considered workarounds to bleed/debuff nodes but they're widely considered counters.

SummonerNR

Seems to be getting off point.
But although, yes, “counter” and “workaround” are different things, they aren’t different in how Dissapointed is describing them.

Whether a champ is bleed immune, takes 90% less damage from Bleed, or shrugs off Bleed, all those are DESIGNED that way, with that in mind.

I’d instead define “workaround” as having to use something/someone in order to get around a node or situation which is NOT behaving as intended. Working around a bug, etc.

SwarmOfRavens

SummonerNR said:

Seems to be getting off point.
But although, yes, “counter” and “workaround” are different things, they aren’t different in how Dissapointed is describing them.

Whether a champ is bleed immune, takes 90% less damage from Bleed, or shrugs off Bleed, all those are DESIGNED that way, with that in mind.

I’d instead define “workaround” as having to use something/someone in order to get around a node or situation which is NOT behaving as intended. Working around a bug, etc.

This is the point I was trying to make, just because a champ reduces the potency of a node doesn't make them a workaround.

OR only reduces bleed by 90% so following his logic he wasn't designed as a counter. Even though a large part of his kit says otherwise.

IKON

HippoSleek_J said:

Have you not got it yet?
Let me break it down:
1. Kabam release a new champ with an awesome ability and watch everyone go nuts hunting the champ through 'early access' bundles and ridiculous arena scores.
2. They observe how everyone is plowing through content with said champion.
3. They create nodes and future champs to make that ability less desirable/usefull.
Then rinse and repeat.

That's the game, you're literally describing the point of the game.

Wicket329

This “counter” versus “workaround” debate is a matter of a difference without a distinction. At the end of the day, all that matters is can the champion do the fight. If yes, then odds are you don’t care whether it’s called a counter or a workaround or a zippity-doo-da.

The issue at the heart of this post is that Apoc does not work for this fight in the way that OP, not unreasonably, expects he would based on the node description and Apoc’s ability descriptions. That being said, I believe this is because of a poorly worded node description, not a bug or a nerf or whatever.

As @Corkscrew pointed out earlier in this thread, Haunted is a node designed for this Summer of Pain fight. It is meant to be difficult and unforgiving. I think it is fair to assume that any part of the description of it left up to interpretation between an easier and harder option should be read as the more difficult option. For content like this, that’s more likely to be the correct reading.

SwarmOfRavens

Dissapointed said:

SwarmOfRavens said:

SummonerNR said:

Seems to be getting off point.
But although, yes, “counter” and “workaround” are different things, they aren’t different in how Dissapointed is describing them.

Whether a champ is bleed immune, takes 90% less damage from Bleed, or shrugs off Bleed, all those are DESIGNED that way, with that in mind.

I’d instead define “workaround” as having to use something/someone in order to get around a node or situation which is NOT behaving as intended. Working around a bug, etc.

This is the point I was trying to make, just because a champ reduces the potency of a node doesn't make them a workaround.

OR only reduces bleed by 90% so following his logic he wasn't designed as a counter. Even though a large part of his kit says otherwise.

Coagulate Mastery says hi. Try using OR against Biohazard nodes in Act 6/7 and you will see that he isn't a counter for them. He gets melted. With 1 point in Coagulate though, he is a viable counter.

I've used him for plenty biohazard nodes in act 6 and I don't have a single point in Coagulate.
Make contact to gain bleed>hit block to build spores> heal any health loss with sp3.

Do you realise how silly your definitions are, you're arguing that omega red isn't a bleed counter without coagulate.

I'm guessing he's also not a counter against 100% bleed nodes because I lose 10% health (that can easily be healed back)

Jeal79

I just can't believe people are arguing over what I think has been the easiest fight of the 9 weeks. The only one so far that I was able to one-shot with 3 different champions.

Worry less about who has the mechanics to counter/workaround the nodes and fight around them instead. Fairly sure that's what Kabam were trying to encourage when they designed this fight.

CoMinow

Jeal79 said:

I just can't believe people are arguing over what I think has been the easiest fight of the 9 weeks. The only one so far that I was able to one-shot with 3 different champions.

Worry less about who has the mechanics to counter/workaround the nodes and fight around them instead. Fairly sure that's what Kabam were trying to encourage when they designed this fight.

Lol… agreed about how easy it is. Struggling or difficulty of the fight were never there point I was making. I was and still am wondering how much more utility he’s going to have taken away because of poorly worded descriptions or his ability to counter nodes like mighty charge.

SwarmOfRavens

Dissapointed said:

SwarmOfRavens said:

Dissapointed said:

SwarmOfRavens said:

SummonerNR said:

Seems to be getting off point.
But although, yes, “counter” and “workaround” are different things, they aren’t different in how Dissapointed is describing them.

Whether a champ is bleed immune, takes 90% less damage from Bleed, or shrugs off Bleed, all those are DESIGNED that way, with that in mind.

I’d instead define “workaround” as having to use something/someone in order to get around a node or situation which is NOT behaving as intended. Working around a bug, etc.

This is the point I was trying to make, just because a champ reduces the potency of a node doesn't make them a workaround.

OR only reduces bleed by 90% so following his logic he wasn't designed as a counter. Even though a large part of his kit says otherwise.

Coagulate Mastery says hi. Try using OR against Biohazard nodes in Act 6/7 and you will see that he isn't a counter for them. He gets melted. With 1 point in Coagulate though, he is a viable counter.

I've used him for plenty biohazard nodes in act 6 and I don't have a single point in Coagulate.
Make contact to gain bleed>hit block to build spores> heal any health loss with sp3.

Do you realise how silly your definitions are, you're arguing that omega red isn't a bleed counter without coagulate.

I'm guessing he's also not a counter against 100% bleed nodes because I lose 10% health (that can easily be healed back)

Omega Red isn't a bleed counter against biohazard opponents with big attack values and that's not debatable (without 1 point in coagulate of course). The bleed is far more powerful than the regeneration from Willpower. So I guess you are making some silly statements right now

Well, since you've said it's not debatable I guess there's nothing I can do.
Have a nice day.

CoMinow

Demonzfyre said:

So you want to rank down one to the best champions in the game because of one node?

I don't see how this interaction isn't working as intended.

No… I clearly asked if I could get the option the next time! There is a clear distinction between that and, saying I want to rank down a champ that I ranked prior to a node being instituted. That makes zero sense. No one could rank a champ based on how they counter or don’t counter a node they don’t know will exist in the future.

The node could work as intended, and would then be another very poorly worded description. Simply tried the node with him based on THEIR description! Which is as a Matter of UNDENIABLE fact, either an erroneously worded description or not functioning properly.. these are literally the only two options

And with the games recent mechanics issues I thought I’d ask. And it probably shouldn’t really matter how much of a Richard I was when asking. My point is still valid regardless of how over the top I phrased it

Wicket329

CoMinow said:

Demonzfyre said:

So you want to rank down one to the best champions in the game because of one node?

I don't see how this interaction isn't working as intended.

No… I clearly asked if I could get the option the next time! There is a clear distinction between that and, saying I want to rank down a champ that I ranked prior to a node being instituted. That makes zero sense. No one could rank a champ based on how they counter or don’t counter a node they don’t know will exist in the future.

The node could work as intended, and would then be another very poorly worded description. Simply tried the node with him based on THEIR description! Which is as a Matter of UNDENIABLE fact, either an erroneously worded description or not functioning properly.. these are literally the only two options

And with the games recent mechanics issues I thought I’d ask. And it probably shouldn’t really matter how much of a Richard I was when asking. My point is still valid regardless of how over the top I phrased it

It is poorly worded, I agree. But the last paragraph here is extremely incorrect. How you phrase things matters, how you speak to people matters. You could be 100% correct about something but if you sound rude or crass, people won’t listen to or respect you.

People on the forums respect DNA3000 not only because he crunches numbers, but because he lays out information in a patient and easy to understand manner. Delivery is just as important as content.

Friendly life lesson from a stranger online.

CoMinow

Wicket329 said:

CoMinow said:

It is poorly worded, I agree. But the last paragraph here is extremely incorrect. How you phrase things matters, how you speak to people matters. You could be 100% correct about something but if you sound rude or crass, people won’t listen to or respect you.

People on the forums respect DNA3000 not only because he crunches numbers, but because he lays out information in a patient and easy to understand manner. Delivery is just as important as content.

Friendly life lesson from a stranger online.

No it isn’t wrong… it shouldn’t matter how I phrase a question to KABAM and how you and others on the forums respond. I posted what I posted … I didn’t speak to you or any other user that way!!! You do understand the huge distinction between the two

Second, why they hell do I care how dna3000 talks to people????

I’m not a “guardian “ super user on the forums, nor does it fall on me to represent Kabam

In case You aren’t getting the dynamic here.. I’m the customer who’s asking for clarification about their product. It’s on them as a company to be clear with their customers! I don’t owe them any explanations I pay them not the other way around.

Eb0ny-O-M4w

Apocalypse wasn't nerfed or changed in any way

SwarmOfRavens

Dissapointed said:

SwarmOfRavens said:

Dissapointed said:

SwarmOfRavens said:

Dissapointed said:

SwarmOfRavens said:

SummonerNR said:

Seems to be getting off point.
But although, yes, “counter” and “workaround” are different things, they aren’t different in how Dissapointed is describing them.

Whether a champ is bleed immune, takes 90% less damage from Bleed, or shrugs off Bleed, all those are DESIGNED that way, with that in mind.

I’d instead define “workaround” as having to use something/someone in order to get around a node or situation which is NOT behaving as intended. Working around a bug, etc.

This is the point I was trying to make, just because a champ reduces the potency of a node doesn't make them a workaround.

OR only reduces bleed by 90% so following his logic he wasn't designed as a counter. Even though a large part of his kit says otherwise.

Coagulate Mastery says hi. Try using OR against Biohazard nodes in Act 6/7 and you will see that he isn't a counter for them. He gets melted. With 1 point in Coagulate though, he is a viable counter.

I've used him for plenty biohazard nodes in act 6 and I don't have a single point in Coagulate.
Make contact to gain bleed>hit block to build spores> heal any health loss with sp3.

Do you realise how silly your definitions are, you're arguing that omega red isn't a bleed counter without coagulate.

I'm guessing he's also not a counter against 100% bleed nodes because I lose 10% health (that can easily be healed back)

Omega Red isn't a bleed counter against biohazard opponents with big attack values and that's not debatable (without 1 point in coagulate of course). The bleed is far more powerful than the regeneration from Willpower. So I guess you are making some silly statements right now

Well, since you've said it's not debatable I guess there's nothing I can do.
Have a nice day.

If you don't know that 200 bleed damage is more than 100 regeneration then I can't help you. It's simple logic.
Disagree as many times as you want lol

Sir, I never mentioned willpower healing. You're the one that inserted it into the discussion.
Read back, I literally don't say anything about willpower or 100 regeneration so I'm not sure why you're fixated on it. You've lost the plot yet talking about simple logic.

CoMinow

Eb0ny-O-M4w said:

Apocalypse wasn't nerfed or changed in any way

If he’s supposed to suppress the ability to purify, and PURIFY still works. His ability has been nerfed (because it no longer functions as described)

If change the way nodes interact with the champ or the champ himself it has no meaningful distinction as the result is the same

His ability no longer does it’s function

Wicket329

CoMinow said:

Wicket329 said:

CoMinow said:

It is poorly worded, I agree. But the last paragraph here is extremely incorrect. How you phrase things matters, how you speak to people matters. You could be 100% correct about something but if you sound rude or crass, people won’t listen to or respect you.

People on the forums respect DNA3000 not only because he crunches numbers, but because he lays out information in a patient and easy to understand manner. Delivery is just as important as content.

Friendly life lesson from a stranger online.

No it isn’t wrong… it shouldn’t matter how I phrase a question to KABAM and how you and others on the forums respond. I posted what I posted … I didn’t speak to you or any other user that way!!! You do understand the huge distinction between the two

Second, why they hell do I care how dna3000 talks to people????

I’m not a “guardian “ super user on the forums, nor does it fall on me to represent Kabam

In case You aren’t getting the dynamic here.. I’m the customer who’s asking for clarification about their product. It’s on them as a company to be clear with their customers! I don’t owe them any explanations I pay them not the other way around.

My guy, I didn’t even say you were being disrespectful or anything. In fact, I agreed with you twice in this thread that your position on the wording of the node is correct. All I told you is delivery matters because it changes how people respond to you. You are more likely to get what you want out of an interaction if people like and respect you and don’t hate every second they are engaged with you.

That being said, I’ll absolutely call you disrespectful after this tantrum. Treat people like people, regardless of which side of a cash register you are on. I genuinely hope you learn this lesson sooner than later, it will save you a lot of grief later in life.

CoMinow

Could someone from @kabam please respond and close the thread, since they all get sidetracked and turn so far off topic?

It really shouldn’t be a hard thing to answer, or make do many people contentious.

As intended or incorrectly phrased doesn’t feel like a controversial topic

Wicket329

CoMinow said:

@Wicket329

Anywhere else that would be punishable by law, but in the game you agree to arbitration and have zero legal rights of protection. That’s just a fact. Kabam could literally sell you anything and change it in any way they see fit after your purchase and you could do nothing. and if you send the right ticket… they’ll tell you that

I am literally a lawyer and can promise you that’s not how arbitration or anything works.

CoMinow

Wicket329 said:

CoMinow said:

@Wicket329

Anywhere else that would be punishable by law, but in the game you agree to arbitration and have zero legal rights of protection. That’s just a fact. Kabam could literally sell you anything and change it in any way they see fit after your purchase and you could do nothing. and if you send the right ticket… they’ll tell you that

I am literally a lawyer and can promise you that’s not how arbitration or anything works.

Lmao… if you’re literally a lawyer than you didn’t read kabams TOS that you agreed to

If you really want to have this debate in the forums let me know

I’ll provide the tos screenshots about valueless items ( something a lawyer should understand)

And the rules governing their arbitration, which you also agreed to.

Which also only allows for you to have any recourse if they have violated those specific terms