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Did you all know that Medusa's armour shatter doesn't work the same way anymore?

2»

Comments

  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Posts: 3,091 ★★★★★
    xNig said:

    She has always worked this way, OP.

    This is the reason why, when robots have enhanced abilities or additional power gain, Medusa doesn’t stop their abilities or power gain fully despite being armor shattered.

    That didn't change, nor is the subject of this discussion.
  • No_oneukNo_oneuk Posts: 1,430 ★★★★★
    Dart1981 said:

    BitterSteel said:

    No_oneuk said:

    Magrailothos said:

    No_oneuk said:

    BuggyDClown said:

    Zan0 said:

    She wasn’t changed. Her description was just updated to how it is supposed to work

    Nah you are wrong
    Read her pre update abilities first and post update. You will find difference. Way difference.



    Edit:- if you meant that She's INTENDED that way as Per kabam as like WORKING INTENDED , yeah then you are right
    He is saying that the only thing that changed was the words, but the way the character works is still exactly the same. In the current landscape of the game figures go over 100% a lot, so it's no longer something that is assumed as 100-100=0, cause now it's often 150-100=50 etc. So they have to be more specific with how they word things.
    They do have to be more careful; but this wasn't a necessary change for Medusa. And it is a change, at least as to how far her abilities can be relied upon.

    There have been a lot of debates over time about 'can't' Vs 'always' and this change is part of it. Medusa had a very clear 'can't' ability and it's been weakened. Tech attackers on a Force of Will node or an Enhanced Abilities node can now activate their Armour Up buffs freely, even with Armour Shattered. Or Mysterio on any kind of Armour node, since he's immune to AAR.

    By way of comparison:
    With a slow debuff, She-hulk reduces Evade ability by 100%.
    With Assassin's Cunning, Hit-Monkey prevents the opponent's Evades. So does Emma Frost in Telepath mode.

    Both abilities work the same, the majority of the time. But She-hulk can't reliably prevent opponents from Evading on FoW or EA nodes. Hit-Monkey and Emma can. If Mesmero or Old Man Logan is sitting on a Mesmerise node, which champion are you going to rely on?

    When Medusa was originally brought into the game she appeared to completely prevent opponents with Armour Shattered from generating Armour Ups. And now she doesn't.

    This wasn't a necessary change for Medusa, although it might be necessary for some new node, or whatever Tech champ is coming to fill Nimrod's "New Wave" synergy).

    What should have happened was that her coding and wording should have been changed to Prevent Armour Ups. Then she'd have been Working as Intended.
    "Working as intended" is a funny phrase because your idea of what is intended and Kabams idea of what is intended seem to be different. And unfortunately, you don't manage these characters, Kabam does. So it clearly is working as intended, you just disagree on the intent.
    Sounds like “working in intended” seems to mean “working as I intend”.

    Medusa has always just worked as -100% ability accuracy, it’s just there didn’t use to be more than 100%, so the words “prevent armour buffs” made sense. Since then, we can have more than 100% ability accuracy, so prevent no longer makes sense
    But how do we know that this was the intent? Just being devils advocate here, but Kabam's intent when designing medusa may have been to completely prevent armour up buff and because of the state of the game at the time they could do that by using coding to reduce AAR by 100%. It worked as intended and was described deliberately. Then however, when it came to designing nodes, it suited them to simply change the wording rather than change the coding to allow her to prevent. We'll never know this and it is Kabam's prerogative to make these changes as the game evolves but we shouldn't say the it is working as intended because they very deliberately used the word prevent in the description
    The sheer fact that they went out of their way to specifically change how the wording is presented so it reflects how it actually works proves their intent.

    If they didn't intend for it to work this way, why would they make the wording more clear and specific? If their intent no longer aligned with how it works now, that would be described as being something they are unaware of. They clearly aren't unaware.
  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Posts: 3,091 ★★★★★
    CoatHang3r said:

    To those saying armor shatter has always been -100% and not a cannot happen please explain why this force of will Ultron does not proc a single armor up while blocking when armor shattered having a 25% chance.

    It’s the last fight in the video. https://youtu.be/LhXQiI4QVGU

    Force of Will makes the opponent immune to Ability Accuracy reducing debuffs and passives. These are debuffs like disorient and concussion, but not necessarily debuffs like armor shatter, slow or coldsnap.
  • ChikelChikel Posts: 2,058 ★★★★
    Colonaut123 said:

    BitterSteel said:

    Magrailothos said:

    No_oneuk said:

    BuggyDClown said:

    Zan0 said:

    She wasn’t changed. Her description was just updated to how it is supposed to work

    Nah you are wrong
    Read her pre update abilities first and post update. You will find difference. Way difference.



    Edit:- if you meant that She's INTENDED that way as Per kabam as like WORKING INTENDED , yeah then you are right
    He is saying that the only thing that changed was the words, but the way the character works is still exactly the same. In the current landscape of the game figures go over 100% a lot, so it's no longer something that is assumed as 100-100=0, cause now it's often 150-100=50 etc. So they have to be more specific with how they word things.



    By way of comparison:
    With a slow debuff, She-hulk reduces Evade ability by 100%.
    With Assassin's Cunning, Hit-Monkey prevents the opponent's Evades. So does Emma Frost in Telepath mode.

    Both abilities work the same, the majority of the time. But She-hulk can't reliably prevent opponents from Evading on FoW or EA nodes. Hit-Monkey and Emma can. If Mesmero or Old Man Logan is sitting on a Mesmerise node, which champion are you going to rely on?


    That’s actually not quite accurate, slow prevents evade even on force of will and increased ability accuracy

    Despite its wording, slow is a simple on or off trigger for evade and unstoppable. But when an opponent has increased ability accuracy they can still trigger the unstoppable buff, it just has no effect on the impact of your hit. Best example of this is champion 6.2. When he has increased AA, a slow doesn’t stop the buff triggering, but he’s not unstoppable
    That's factually incorrect.

    Force of Will makes the opponent immune to Ability Accuracy reducing debuffs and passives. These are debuffs like disorient and concussion, but not necessarily debuffs like slow or coldsnap.
    Nope. I thought the same then tested in V4 3* quest MK boss. He will not evade while slowed. There's also an evade path with extra ability accuracy. They will not evade while slowed either.
    Slow turns off evade no matter how high the ability accuracy or immunity to it. That's why Ultron has to be immune to slow to prevent it from shutting down his evade function because it's immunity to AAR doesn't work with slow. (That slow immunity is currently bugged and doesn't work)
  • ChikelChikel Posts: 2,058 ★★★★
    Colonaut123 said:

    CoatHang3r said:

    To those saying armor shatter has always been -100% and not a cannot happen please explain why this force of will Ultron does not proc a single armor up while blocking when armor shattered having a 25% chance.

    It’s the last fight in the video. https://youtu.be/LhXQiI4QVGU

    Force of Will makes the opponent immune to Ability Accuracy reducing debuffs and passives. These are debuffs like disorient and concussion, but not necessarily debuffs like armor shatter, slow or coldsnap.
    Is there an unstoppable champ on force of will because I'm pretty sure they will trigger the unstoppable icon when slowed due to AAR immunity.
    Coldsnap is not AAR, nowhere is it stated as such. "While inflicted with coldsnap champions cannot evade" That's a flat out off switch not AAR
  • Dart1981Dart1981 Posts: 222 ★★★
    No_oneuk said:

    Dart1981 said:

    BitterSteel said:

    No_oneuk said:

    Magrailothos said:

    No_oneuk said:

    BuggyDClown said:

    Zan0 said:

    She wasn’t changed. Her description was just updated to how it is supposed to work

    Nah you are wrong
    Read her pre update abilities first and post update. You will find difference. Way difference.



    Edit:- if you meant that She's INTENDED that way as Per kabam as like WORKING INTENDED , yeah then you are right
    He is saying that the only thing that changed was the words, but the way the character works is still exactly the same. In the current landscape of the game figures go over 100% a lot, so it's no longer something that is assumed as 100-100=0, cause now it's often 150-100=50 etc. So they have to be more specific with how they word things.
    They do have to be more careful; but this wasn't a necessary change for Medusa. And it is a change, at least as to how far her abilities can be relied upon.

    There have been a lot of debates over time about 'can't' Vs 'always' and this change is part of it. Medusa had a very clear 'can't' ability and it's been weakened. Tech attackers on a Force of Will node or an Enhanced Abilities node can now activate their Armour Up buffs freely, even with Armour Shattered. Or Mysterio on any kind of Armour node, since he's immune to AAR.

    By way of comparison:
    With a slow debuff, She-hulk reduces Evade ability by 100%.
    With Assassin's Cunning, Hit-Monkey prevents the opponent's Evades. So does Emma Frost in Telepath mode.

    Both abilities work the same, the majority of the time. But She-hulk can't reliably prevent opponents from Evading on FoW or EA nodes. Hit-Monkey and Emma can. If Mesmero or Old Man Logan is sitting on a Mesmerise node, which champion are you going to rely on?

    When Medusa was originally brought into the game she appeared to completely prevent opponents with Armour Shattered from generating Armour Ups. And now she doesn't.

    This wasn't a necessary change for Medusa, although it might be necessary for some new node, or whatever Tech champ is coming to fill Nimrod's "New Wave" synergy).

    What should have happened was that her coding and wording should have been changed to Prevent Armour Ups. Then she'd have been Working as Intended.
    "Working as intended" is a funny phrase because your idea of what is intended and Kabams idea of what is intended seem to be different. And unfortunately, you don't manage these characters, Kabam does. So it clearly is working as intended, you just disagree on the intent.
    Sounds like “working in intended” seems to mean “working as I intend”.

    Medusa has always just worked as -100% ability accuracy, it’s just there didn’t use to be more than 100%, so the words “prevent armour buffs” made sense. Since then, we can have more than 100% ability accuracy, so prevent no longer makes sense
    But how do we know that this was the intent? Just being devils advocate here, but Kabam's intent when designing medusa may have been to completely prevent armour up buff and because of the state of the game at the time they could do that by using coding to reduce AAR by 100%. It worked as intended and was described deliberately. Then however, when it came to designing nodes, it suited them to simply change the wording rather than change the coding to allow her to prevent. We'll never know this and it is Kabam's prerogative to make these changes as the game evolves but we shouldn't say the it is working as intended because they very deliberately used the word prevent in the description
    The sheer fact that they went out of their way to specifically change how the wording is presented so it reflects how it actually works proves their intent.

    If they didn't intend for it to work this way, why would they make the wording more clear and specific? If their intent no longer aligned with how it works now, that would be described as being something they are unaware of. They clearly aren't unaware.
    Or it could prove their intent on how they want it to work now, compared to their intent when she was designed. I think its clear that originally their intent was to "prevent" by "reducing AAR by 100%" and that worked back then. Now as the game has evolved you cannot prevent by reducing AAR by 100%. That doesn't work. So they changed the description rather than align the code to match the description. It was a choice by Kabam that could have gone either way but doesn't prove their intent when she was designed. All I'll add to this is that it's funny how this is noticed/picked up so soon after she's released as a 6*........ maybe you could derive some intent from that :D:D:D
  • ChikelChikel Posts: 2,058 ★★★★
    Dart1981 said:

    No_oneuk said:

    Dart1981 said:

    BitterSteel said:

    No_oneuk said:

    Magrailothos said:

    No_oneuk said:

    BuggyDClown said:

    Zan0 said:

    She wasn’t changed. Her description was just updated to how it is supposed to work

    Nah you are wrong
    Read her pre update abilities first and post update. You will find difference. Way difference.



    Edit:- if you meant that She's INTENDED that way as Per kabam as like WORKING INTENDED , yeah then you are right
    He is saying that the only thing that changed was the words, but the way the character works is still exactly the same. In the current landscape of the game figures go over 100% a lot, so it's no longer something that is assumed as 100-100=0, cause now it's often 150-100=50 etc. So they have to be more specific with how they word things.
    They do have to be more careful; but this wasn't a necessary change for Medusa. And it is a change, at least as to how far her abilities can be relied upon.

    There have been a lot of debates over time about 'can't' Vs 'always' and this change is part of it. Medusa had a very clear 'can't' ability and it's been weakened. Tech attackers on a Force of Will node or an Enhanced Abilities node can now activate their Armour Up buffs freely, even with Armour Shattered. Or Mysterio on any kind of Armour node, since he's immune to AAR.

    By way of comparison:
    With a slow debuff, She-hulk reduces Evade ability by 100%.
    With Assassin's Cunning, Hit-Monkey prevents the opponent's Evades. So does Emma Frost in Telepath mode.

    Both abilities work the same, the majority of the time. But She-hulk can't reliably prevent opponents from Evading on FoW or EA nodes. Hit-Monkey and Emma can. If Mesmero or Old Man Logan is sitting on a Mesmerise node, which champion are you going to rely on?

    When Medusa was originally brought into the game she appeared to completely prevent opponents with Armour Shattered from generating Armour Ups. And now she doesn't.

    This wasn't a necessary change for Medusa, although it might be necessary for some new node, or whatever Tech champ is coming to fill Nimrod's "New Wave" synergy).

    What should have happened was that her coding and wording should have been changed to Prevent Armour Ups. Then she'd have been Working as Intended.
    "Working as intended" is a funny phrase because your idea of what is intended and Kabams idea of what is intended seem to be different. And unfortunately, you don't manage these characters, Kabam does. So it clearly is working as intended, you just disagree on the intent.
    Sounds like “working in intended” seems to mean “working as I intend”.

    Medusa has always just worked as -100% ability accuracy, it’s just there didn’t use to be more than 100%, so the words “prevent armour buffs” made sense. Since then, we can have more than 100% ability accuracy, so prevent no longer makes sense
    But how do we know that this was the intent? Just being devils advocate here, but Kabam's intent when designing medusa may have been to completely prevent armour up buff and because of the state of the game at the time they could do that by using coding to reduce AAR by 100%. It worked as intended and was described deliberately. Then however, when it came to designing nodes, it suited them to simply change the wording rather than change the coding to allow her to prevent. We'll never know this and it is Kabam's prerogative to make these changes as the game evolves but we shouldn't say the it is working as intended because they very deliberately used the word prevent in the description
    The sheer fact that they went out of their way to specifically change how the wording is presented so it reflects how it actually works proves their intent.

    If they didn't intend for it to work this way, why would they make the wording more clear and specific? If their intent no longer aligned with how it works now, that would be described as being something they are unaware of. They clearly aren't unaware.
    Or it could prove their intent on how they want it to work now, compared to their intent when she was designed. I think its clear that originally their intent was to "prevent" by "reducing AAR by 100%" and that worked back then. Now as the game has evolved you cannot prevent by reducing AAR by 100%. That doesn't work. So they changed the description rather than align the code to match the description. It was a choice by Kabam that could have gone either way but doesn't prove their intent when she was designed. All I'll add to this is that it's funny how this is noticed/picked up so soon after she's released as a 6*........ maybe you could derive some intent from that :D:D:D
    That change was made in March and they started a trend of updating ability description especially old ones to become clearer what it does this year and Medusa is an example of that. I don't think there's any suspicious "intent" here.
  • Dart1981Dart1981 Posts: 222 ★★★
    Chikel said:

    Dart1981 said:

    No_oneuk said:

    Dart1981 said:

    BitterSteel said:

    No_oneuk said:

    Magrailothos said:

    No_oneuk said:

    BuggyDClown said:

    Zan0 said:

    She wasn’t changed. Her description was just updated to how it is supposed to work

    Nah you are wrong
    Read her pre update abilities first and post update. You will find difference. Way difference.



    Edit:- if you meant that She's INTENDED that way as Per kabam as like WORKING INTENDED , yeah then you are right
    He is saying that the only thing that changed was the words, but the way the character works is still exactly the same. In the current landscape of the game figures go over 100% a lot, so it's no longer something that is assumed as 100-100=0, cause now it's often 150-100=50 etc. So they have to be more specific with how they word things.
    They do have to be more careful; but this wasn't a necessary change for Medusa. And it is a change, at least as to how far her abilities can be relied upon.

    There have been a lot of debates over time about 'can't' Vs 'always' and this change is part of it. Medusa had a very clear 'can't' ability and it's been weakened. Tech attackers on a Force of Will node or an Enhanced Abilities node can now activate their Armour Up buffs freely, even with Armour Shattered. Or Mysterio on any kind of Armour node, since he's immune to AAR.

    By way of comparison:
    With a slow debuff, She-hulk reduces Evade ability by 100%.
    With Assassin's Cunning, Hit-Monkey prevents the opponent's Evades. So does Emma Frost in Telepath mode.

    Both abilities work the same, the majority of the time. But She-hulk can't reliably prevent opponents from Evading on FoW or EA nodes. Hit-Monkey and Emma can. If Mesmero or Old Man Logan is sitting on a Mesmerise node, which champion are you going to rely on?

    When Medusa was originally brought into the game she appeared to completely prevent opponents with Armour Shattered from generating Armour Ups. And now she doesn't.

    This wasn't a necessary change for Medusa, although it might be necessary for some new node, or whatever Tech champ is coming to fill Nimrod's "New Wave" synergy).

    What should have happened was that her coding and wording should have been changed to Prevent Armour Ups. Then she'd have been Working as Intended.
    "Working as intended" is a funny phrase because your idea of what is intended and Kabams idea of what is intended seem to be different. And unfortunately, you don't manage these characters, Kabam does. So it clearly is working as intended, you just disagree on the intent.
    Sounds like “working in intended” seems to mean “working as I intend”.

    Medusa has always just worked as -100% ability accuracy, it’s just there didn’t use to be more than 100%, so the words “prevent armour buffs” made sense. Since then, we can have more than 100% ability accuracy, so prevent no longer makes sense
    But how do we know that this was the intent? Just being devils advocate here, but Kabam's intent when designing medusa may have been to completely prevent armour up buff and because of the state of the game at the time they could do that by using coding to reduce AAR by 100%. It worked as intended and was described deliberately. Then however, when it came to designing nodes, it suited them to simply change the wording rather than change the coding to allow her to prevent. We'll never know this and it is Kabam's prerogative to make these changes as the game evolves but we shouldn't say the it is working as intended because they very deliberately used the word prevent in the description
    The sheer fact that they went out of their way to specifically change how the wording is presented so it reflects how it actually works proves their intent.

    If they didn't intend for it to work this way, why would they make the wording more clear and specific? If their intent no longer aligned with how it works now, that would be described as being something they are unaware of. They clearly aren't unaware.
    Or it could prove their intent on how they want it to work now, compared to their intent when she was designed. I think its clear that originally their intent was to "prevent" by "reducing AAR by 100%" and that worked back then. Now as the game has evolved you cannot prevent by reducing AAR by 100%. That doesn't work. So they changed the description rather than align the code to match the description. It was a choice by Kabam that could have gone either way but doesn't prove their intent when she was designed. All I'll add to this is that it's funny how this is noticed/picked up so soon after she's released as a 6*........ maybe you could derive some intent from that :D:D:D
    That change was made in March and they started a trend of updating ability description especially old ones to become clearer what it does this year and Medusa is an example of that. I don't think there's any suspicious "intent" here.
    Yeah I saw that after I hit post comment lol. The last part of my comment was meant to be a joke though.....
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,254 ★★★★★
    Colonaut123 said:

    BitterSteel said:

    Magrailothos said:

    No_oneuk said:

    BuggyDClown said:

    Zan0 said:

    She wasn’t changed. Her description was just updated to how it is supposed to work

    Nah you are wrong
    Read her pre update abilities first and post update. You will find difference. Way difference.



    Edit:- if you meant that She's INTENDED that way as Per kabam as like WORKING INTENDED , yeah then you are right
    He is saying that the only thing that changed was the words, but the way the character works is still exactly the same. In the current landscape of the game figures go over 100% a lot, so it's no longer something that is assumed as 100-100=0, cause now it's often 150-100=50 etc. So they have to be more specific with how they word things.



    By way of comparison:
    With a slow debuff, She-hulk reduces Evade ability by 100%.
    With Assassin's Cunning, Hit-Monkey prevents the opponent's Evades. So does Emma Frost in Telepath mode.

    Both abilities work the same, the majority of the time. But She-hulk can't reliably prevent opponents from Evading on FoW or EA nodes. Hit-Monkey and Emma can. If Mesmero or Old Man Logan is sitting on a Mesmerise node, which champion are you going to rely on?


    That’s actually not quite accurate, slow prevents evade even on force of will and increased ability accuracy

    Despite its wording, slow is a simple on or off trigger for evade and unstoppable. But when an opponent has increased ability accuracy they can still trigger the unstoppable buff, it just has no effect on the impact of your hit. Best example of this is champion 6.2. When he has increased AA, a slow doesn’t stop the buff triggering, but he’s not unstoppable
    That's factually incorrect.

    Force of Will makes the opponent immune to Ability Accuracy reducing debuffs and passives. These are debuffs like disorient and concussion, but not necessarily debuffs like slow or coldsnap.
    Colonaut123 said:

    BitterSteel said:

    Magrailothos said:

    No_oneuk said:

    BuggyDClown said:

    Zan0 said:

    She wasn’t changed. Her description was just updated to how it is supposed to work

    Nah you are wrong
    Read her pre update abilities first and post update. You will find difference. Way difference.



    Edit:- if you meant that She's INTENDED that way as Per kabam as like WORKING INTENDED , yeah then you are right
    He is saying that the only thing that changed was the words, but the way the character works is still exactly the same. In the current landscape of the game figures go over 100% a lot, so it's no longer something that is assumed as 100-100=0, cause now it's often 150-100=50 etc. So they have to be more specific with how they word things.



    By way of comparison:
    With a slow debuff, She-hulk reduces Evade ability by 100%.
    With Assassin's Cunning, Hit-Monkey prevents the opponent's Evades. So does Emma Frost in Telepath mode.

    Both abilities work the same, the majority of the time. But She-hulk can't reliably prevent opponents from Evading on FoW or EA nodes. Hit-Monkey and Emma can. If Mesmero or Old Man Logan is sitting on a Mesmerise node, which champion are you going to rely on?


    That’s actually not quite accurate, slow prevents evade even on force of will and increased ability accuracy

    Despite its wording, slow is a simple on or off trigger for evade and unstoppable. But when an opponent has increased ability accuracy they can still trigger the unstoppable buff, it just has no effect on the impact of your hit. Best example of this is champion 6.2. When he has increased AA, a slow doesn’t stop the buff triggering, but he’s not unstoppable
    That's factually incorrect.

    Force of Will makes the opponent immune to Ability Accuracy reducing debuffs and passives. These are debuffs like disorient and concussion, but not necessarily debuffs like slow or coldsnap.
    https://youtu.be/HSdI-tdskV8

    33 seconds in. Not immune to slow.

    Against 6.2 champion he can still trigger unstoppable even when slowed, that’s why we had bug complaints about it.

    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/263257/is-6-2-champion-bugged
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/151827/champion-6-2-bugged-again
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,254 ★★★★★
    CoatHang3r said:

    To those saying armor shatter has always been -100% and not a cannot happen please explain why this force of will Ultron does not proc a single armor up while blocking when armor shattered having a 25% chance.

    It’s the last fight in the video. https://youtu.be/LhXQiI4QVGU

    My guess is it would be similar to how tigra’s neutralise works. (Ironically we had this conversation a couple days ago).

    You know how tigra has -100% buff AA, but she still works on immunity to AAR, but when someone has increased ability accuracy it doesn’t work. Old man Logan and then Thor respectively for example.

    Medusa doesn’t get affected by immunity to AAR, but she does get affected by increased ability accuracy.

    Again this is only my best guess based on the evidence, but if you have an example of her still working against increased AA then the evidence changes
  • GrandOldKaiGrandOldKai Posts: 785 ★★★★
    BitterSteel said:

    Magrailothos said:

    No_oneuk said:

    BuggyDClown said:

    Zan0 said:

    She wasn’t changed. Her description was just updated to how it is supposed to work

    Nah you are wrong
    Read her pre update abilities first and post update. You will find difference. Way difference.



    Edit:- if you meant that She's INTENDED that way as Per kabam as like WORKING INTENDED , yeah then you are right
    He is saying that the only thing that changed was the words, but the way the character works is still exactly the same. In the current landscape of the game figures go over 100% a lot, so it's no longer something that is assumed as 100-100=0, cause now it's often 150-100=50 etc. So they have to be more specific with how they word things.



    By way of comparison:
    With a slow debuff, She-hulk reduces Evade ability by 100%.
    With Assassin's Cunning, Hit-Monkey prevents the opponent's Evades. So does Emma Frost in Telepath mode.

    Both abilities work the same, the majority of the time. But She-hulk can't reliably prevent opponents from Evading on FoW or EA nodes. Hit-Monkey and Emma can. If Mesmero or Old Man Logan is sitting on a Mesmerise node, which champion are you going to rely on?


    That’s actually not quite accurate, slow prevents evade even on force of will and increased ability accuracy

    Despite its wording, slow is a simple on or off trigger for evade and unstoppable. But when an opponent has increased ability accuracy they can still trigger the unstoppable buff, it just has no effect on the impact of your hit. Best example of this is champion 6.2. When he has increased AA, a slow doesn’t stop the buff triggering, but he’s not unstoppable
    Well, that's odd.

    Then, what does "Evade Ability Accuracy" actually mean?
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,254 ★★★★★
    walkerdog said:

    No_oneuk said:

    Dart1981 said:

    BitterSteel said:

    No_oneuk said:

    Magrailothos said:

    No_oneuk said:

    BuggyDClown said:

    Zan0 said:

    She wasn’t changed. Her description was just updated to how it is supposed to work

    Nah you are wrong
    Read her pre update abilities first and post update. You will find difference. Way difference.



    Edit:- if you meant that She's INTENDED that way as Per kabam as like WORKING INTENDED , yeah then you are right
    He is saying that the only thing that changed was the words, but the way the character works is still exactly the same. In the current landscape of the game figures go over 100% a lot, so it's no longer something that is assumed as 100-100=0, cause now it's often 150-100=50 etc. So they have to be more specific with how they word things.
    They do have to be more careful; but this wasn't a necessary change for Medusa. And it is a change, at least as to how far her abilities can be relied upon.

    There have been a lot of debates over time about 'can't' Vs 'always' and this change is part of it. Medusa had a very clear 'can't' ability and it's been weakened. Tech attackers on a Force of Will node or an Enhanced Abilities node can now activate their Armour Up buffs freely, even with Armour Shattered. Or Mysterio on any kind of Armour node, since he's immune to AAR.

    By way of comparison:
    With a slow debuff, She-hulk reduces Evade ability by 100%.
    With Assassin's Cunning, Hit-Monkey prevents the opponent's Evades. So does Emma Frost in Telepath mode.

    Both abilities work the same, the majority of the time. But She-hulk can't reliably prevent opponents from Evading on FoW or EA nodes. Hit-Monkey and Emma can. If Mesmero or Old Man Logan is sitting on a Mesmerise node, which champion are you going to rely on?

    When Medusa was originally brought into the game she appeared to completely prevent opponents with Armour Shattered from generating Armour Ups. And now she doesn't.

    This wasn't a necessary change for Medusa, although it might be necessary for some new node, or whatever Tech champ is coming to fill Nimrod's "New Wave" synergy).

    What should have happened was that her coding and wording should have been changed to Prevent Armour Ups. Then she'd have been Working as Intended.
    "Working as intended" is a funny phrase because your idea of what is intended and Kabams idea of what is intended seem to be different. And unfortunately, you don't manage these characters, Kabam does. So it clearly is working as intended, you just disagree on the intent.
    Sounds like “working in intended” seems to mean “working as I intend”.

    Medusa has always just worked as -100% ability accuracy, it’s just there didn’t use to be more than 100%, so the words “prevent armour buffs” made sense. Since then, we can have more than 100% ability accuracy, so prevent no longer makes sense
    But how do we know that this was the intent? Just being devils advocate here, but Kabam's intent when designing medusa may have been to completely prevent armour up buff and because of the state of the game at the time they could do that by using coding to reduce AAR by 100%. It worked as intended and was described deliberately. Then however, when it came to designing nodes, it suited them to simply change the wording rather than change the coding to allow her to prevent. We'll never know this and it is Kabam's prerogative to make these changes as the game evolves but we shouldn't say the it is working as intended because they very deliberately used the word prevent in the description
    The sheer fact that they went out of their way to specifically change how the wording is presented so it reflects how it actually works proves their intent.

    If they didn't intend for it to work this way, why would they make the wording more clear and specific? If their intent no longer aligned with how it works now, that would be described as being something they are unaware of. They clearly aren't unaware.
    A cynic would argue it both served as a way to remove Medusa from the "100% answers robots" list and/or also was less work than simply coding her to work as written when theyd sloppily coded her as 100 aar at that point
    A realist would argue that when Medusa was added to the game there weren’t mechanics such as these added, and as time went on, new mechanics were added as Kabam pushed the boundaries of making the game interesting and new.

    As a result, Medusa’s description not reflect how it had been (perfectly well) coded, and was updated accordingly so players understood the new state of the game, and didn’t wonder why Medusa no longer worked on robots with increased AA.

    What Kabam didn’t allow for was the corner of the player base that shouts nerf any time anything changes, even if nothing has actually changed.
  • SirGamesBondSirGamesBond Posts: 4,205 ★★★★★
    edited September 2021
    I do not approve of this. But it doesn't even matter what I approve or not.
    She musy have remained the robot slayer she was, increased AA or not.

    People use 3* magneto against 5.4 ultron.. I classify that as broken, not her.
    She is not even a daily use champ. She sits in bench like Namor...and become a god when she is needed.

    I explored 7.1 in January, and she didn't work on this path OP mentioned. She was the first champ I took in that weaponX path. I then switched to Claire and doom.

    Nothing was changed about armor shatter except the description. Medusa is a victim of ancient ways of coding.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,254 ★★★★★
    walkerdog said:

    BitterSteel said:

    walkerdog said:

    No_oneuk said:

    Dart1981 said:

    BitterSteel said:

    No_oneuk said:

    Magrailothos said:

    No_oneuk said:

    BuggyDClown said:

    Zan0 said:

    She wasn’t changed. Her description was just updated to how it is supposed to work

    Nah you are wrong
    Read her pre update abilities first and post update. You will find difference. Way difference.



    Edit:- if you meant that She's INTENDED that way as Per kabam as like WORKING INTENDED , yeah then you are right
    He is saying that the only thing that changed was the words, but the way the character works is still exactly the same. In the current landscape of the game figures go over 100% a lot, so it's no longer something that is assumed as 100-100=0, cause now it's often 150-100=50 etc. So they have to be more specific with how they word things.
    They do have to be more careful; but this wasn't a necessary change for Medusa. And it is a change, at least as to how far her abilities can be relied upon.

    There have been a lot of debates over time about 'can't' Vs 'always' and this change is part of it. Medusa had a very clear 'can't' ability and it's been weakened. Tech attackers on a Force of Will node or an Enhanced Abilities node can now activate their Armour Up buffs freely, even with Armour Shattered. Or Mysterio on any kind of Armour node, since he's immune to AAR.

    By way of comparison:
    With a slow debuff, She-hulk reduces Evade ability by 100%.
    With Assassin's Cunning, Hit-Monkey prevents the opponent's Evades. So does Emma Frost in Telepath mode.

    Both abilities work the same, the majority of the time. But She-hulk can't reliably prevent opponents from Evading on FoW or EA nodes. Hit-Monkey and Emma can. If Mesmero or Old Man Logan is sitting on a Mesmerise node, which champion are you going to rely on?

    When Medusa was originally brought into the game she appeared to completely prevent opponents with Armour Shattered from generating Armour Ups. And now she doesn't.

    This wasn't a necessary change for Medusa, although it might be necessary for some new node, or whatever Tech champ is coming to fill Nimrod's "New Wave" synergy).

    What should have happened was that her coding and wording should have been changed to Prevent Armour Ups. Then she'd have been Working as Intended.
    "Working as intended" is a funny phrase because your idea of what is intended and Kabams idea of what is intended seem to be different. And unfortunately, you don't manage these characters, Kabam does. So it clearly is working as intended, you just disagree on the intent.
    Sounds like “working in intended” seems to mean “working as I intend”.

    Medusa has always just worked as -100% ability accuracy, it’s just there didn’t use to be more than 100%, so the words “prevent armour buffs” made sense. Since then, we can have more than 100% ability accuracy, so prevent no longer makes sense
    But how do we know that this was the intent? Just being devils advocate here, but Kabam's intent when designing medusa may have been to completely prevent armour up buff and because of the state of the game at the time they could do that by using coding to reduce AAR by 100%. It worked as intended and was described deliberately. Then however, when it came to designing nodes, it suited them to simply change the wording rather than change the coding to allow her to prevent. We'll never know this and it is Kabam's prerogative to make these changes as the game evolves but we shouldn't say the it is working as intended because they very deliberately used the word prevent in the description
    The sheer fact that they went out of their way to specifically change how the wording is presented so it reflects how it actually works proves their intent.

    If they didn't intend for it to work this way, why would they make the wording more clear and specific? If their intent no longer aligned with how it works now, that would be described as being something they are unaware of. They clearly aren't unaware.
    A cynic would argue it both served as a way to remove Medusa from the "100% answers robots" list and/or also was less work than simply coding her to work as written when theyd sloppily coded her as 100 aar at that point
    A realist would argue that when Medusa was added to the game there weren’t mechanics such as these added, and as time went on, new mechanics were added as Kabam pushed the boundaries of making the game interesting and new.

    As a result, Medusa’s description not reflect how it had been (perfectly well) coded, and was updated accordingly so players understood the new state of the game, and didn’t wonder why Medusa no longer worked on robots with increased AA.

    What Kabam didn’t allow for was the corner of the player base that shouts nerf any time anything changes, even if nothing has actually changed.
    There was AA in the game. Deciding that increased AA meant that the old definitive version wasn't intended... nah. Its not like they didn't have champs who could/did reduce aar (and had the amount described afaik).

    An immunity to breaks or shatters is one thing. Changing from a definitive to something affected by iaa was scummy. It was very similar to changing herc's sig after hed been out a month and theyd received the benefit of him being op in both selling crystals, and apparently people were dying vs him in eq at the immortality phase?

    I cant imagine defending for-profit companies, particularly ones like kabam that have shown over the years that they're good at operating a game in general, but they will absolutely victimize addicts and make changes to screw their playerbase when it benefits them. I guess if u genuinely feel they 100% designed it to be reliant on 100% ability accuracy from day 1 AND just communicated it horribly, fair enough. Its just a huge failure of character description then, which we've seen them do plenty of times too.
    If you’re arguing that introducing new mechanics is bad, because it affects champions who previously shut down something. Then you really don’t have a leg to stand on. That is the entire premise this game is built on.

    There was no change from a definitive to something affected by increased AA. The change was purely description based. Before the increased AA node was here, Medusa did shut it down definitively. But afterwards, she didn’t, so her description was updated accordingly.

    If you want to pedal your conspiracy theories that the description was changed to screw players over, sure. But it really reflects poorly on your character. The rhetoric that you use when describing Kabam is really out of place and really just inappropriate - “they will absolutely victimize addicts”. I mean do you read the words you say?

    I’m not defending Kabam, and that is an accusation that people tend to use when they can’t figure out any way to argue against points made. The most logical, and factual explanation to this is that Medusa used to shut something down because 100% ability accuracy was the max, and since she was coded to take -100% off, the description for it was definitive. But as time went on and Kabam introduced more nodes, the max increased. So she no longer prevented them, and the description was updated as such.

    You have no basis to claim anything other, except with the victim mentality of Kabam being out to get you and suck your wallet dry. Not everything is against you. I won’t continue this debate, because it’s not a debate. It’s a conspiracy theory, and you should rethink it.
  • Graves_3Graves_3 Posts: 1,301 ★★★★★
    BitterSteel said:

    No_oneuk said:

    Magrailothos said:

    No_oneuk said:

    BuggyDClown said:

    Zan0 said:

    She wasn’t changed. Her description was just updated to how it is supposed to work

    Nah you are wrong
    Read her pre update abilities first and post update. You will find difference. Way difference.



    Edit:- if you meant that She's INTENDED that way as Per kabam as like WORKING INTENDED , yeah then you are right
    He is saying that the only thing that changed was the words, but the way the character works is still exactly the same. In the current landscape of the game figures go over 100% a lot, so it's no longer something that is assumed as 100-100=0, cause now it's often 150-100=50 etc. So they have to be more specific with how they word things.
    They do have to be more careful; but this wasn't a necessary change for Medusa. And it is a change, at least as to how far her abilities can be relied upon.

    There have been a lot of debates over time about 'can't' Vs 'always' and this change is part of it. Medusa had a very clear 'can't' ability and it's been weakened. Tech attackers on a Force of Will node or an Enhanced Abilities node can now activate their Armour Up buffs freely, even with Armour Shattered. Or Mysterio on any kind of Armour node, since he's immune to AAR.

    By way of comparison:
    With a slow debuff, She-hulk reduces Evade ability by 100%.
    With Assassin's Cunning, Hit-Monkey prevents the opponent's Evades. So does Emma Frost in Telepath mode.

    Both abilities work the same, the majority of the time. But She-hulk can't reliably prevent opponents from Evading on FoW or EA nodes. Hit-Monkey and Emma can. If Mesmero or Old Man Logan is sitting on a Mesmerise node, which champion are you going to rely on?

    When Medusa was originally brought into the game she appeared to completely prevent opponents with Armour Shattered from generating Armour Ups. And now she doesn't.

    This wasn't a necessary change for Medusa, although it might be necessary for some new node, or whatever Tech champ is coming to fill Nimrod's "New Wave" synergy).

    What should have happened was that her coding and wording should have been changed to Prevent Armour Ups. Then she'd have been Working as Intended.
    "Working as intended" is a funny phrase because your idea of what is intended and Kabams idea of what is intended seem to be different. And unfortunately, you don't manage these characters, Kabam does. So it clearly is working as intended, you just disagree on the intent.
    Sounds like “working in intended” seems to mean “working as I intend”.

    Medusa has always just worked as -100% ability accuracy, it’s just there didn’t use to be more than 100%, so the words “prevent armour buffs” made sense. Since then, we can have more than 100% ability accuracy, so prevent no longer makes sense
    Does this count as increased ability accuracy of armor up? Or does it mean 40% effective armor when they procure? If it’s the former then this is an act 5.1.1 node which was released March 2017. Medusa was released September 2017. Much after this act. I really don’t have any gameplay of Medusa preventing armor ups after shatter from this era but if this is enhanced ability accuracy of armor up as I understand it, then this existed in the game before Medusa was released.
  • BendyBendy Posts: 3,347 ★★★★★
    Graves_3 said:


    BitterSteel said:

    No_oneuk said:

    Magrailothos said:

    No_oneuk said:

    BuggyDClown said:

    Zan0 said:

    She wasn’t changed. Her description was just updated to how it is supposed to work

    Nah you are wrong
    Read her pre update abilities first and post update. You will find difference. Way difference.



    Edit:- if you meant that She's INTENDED that way as Per kabam as like WORKING INTENDED , yeah then you are right
    He is saying that the only thing that changed was the words, but the way the character works is still exactly the same. In the current landscape of the game figures go over 100% a lot, so it's no longer something that is assumed as 100-100=0, cause now it's often 150-100=50 etc. So they have to be more specific with how they word things.
    They do have to be more careful; but this wasn't a necessary change for Medusa. And it is a change, at least as to how far her abilities can be relied upon.

    There have been a lot of debates over time about 'can't' Vs 'always' and this change is part of it. Medusa had a very clear 'can't' ability and it's been weakened. Tech attackers on a Force of Will node or an Enhanced Abilities node can now activate their Armour Up buffs freely, even with Armour Shattered. Or Mysterio on any kind of Armour node, since he's immune to AAR.

    By way of comparison:
    With a slow debuff, She-hulk reduces Evade ability by 100%.
    With Assassin's Cunning, Hit-Monkey prevents the opponent's Evades. So does Emma Frost in Telepath mode.

    Both abilities work the same, the majority of the time. But She-hulk can't reliably prevent opponents from Evading on FoW or EA nodes. Hit-Monkey and Emma can. If Mesmero or Old Man Logan is sitting on a Mesmerise node, which champion are you going to rely on?

    When Medusa was originally brought into the game she appeared to completely prevent opponents with Armour Shattered from generating Armour Ups. And now she doesn't.

    This wasn't a necessary change for Medusa, although it might be necessary for some new node, or whatever Tech champ is coming to fill Nimrod's "New Wave" synergy).

    What should have happened was that her coding and wording should have been changed to Prevent Armour Ups. Then she'd have been Working as Intended.
    "Working as intended" is a funny phrase because your idea of what is intended and Kabams idea of what is intended seem to be different. And unfortunately, you don't manage these characters, Kabam does. So it clearly is working as intended, you just disagree on the intent.
    Sounds like “working in intended” seems to mean “working as I intend”.

    Medusa has always just worked as -100% ability accuracy, it’s just there didn’t use to be more than 100%, so the words “prevent armour buffs” made sense. Since then, we can have more than 100% ability accuracy, so prevent no longer makes sense
    Does this count as increased ability accuracy of armor up? Or does it mean 40% effective armor when they procure? If it’s the former then this is an act 5.1.1 node which was released March 2017. Medusa was released September 2017. Much after this act. I really don’t have any gameplay of Medusa preventing armor ups after shatter from this era but if this is enhanced ability accuracy of armor up as I understand it, then this existed in the game before Medusa was released.
    It be increased aa if it states this means 40% extra potency on the armor up effects
  • PulyamanPulyaman Posts: 2,365 ★★★★★
    edited September 2021
    CoatHang3r said:

    You’re forgetting/ignoring a few things.

    1) Armor shatter and how it functioned was changed when Aarkus was introduced in late 2019; years after Medusa. Remember how messed up Medusa was after this? Armor shatter stopped doing everything it had previously done. They had to Gerry rig armor shatter and add in an armor break on top to mimic its previous functionality.

    2) Medusa’s spotlight.

    3) Enhanced abilities were present as early as act 5. (colossus in 5.1.5) There weren’t reports of Medusa failing to prevent armor buffs until after Aarkus. Evidently, They started the moment armor shatter was changed for his introduction.

    Saying it always functioned as it does today is preposterous.

    Exactly this. Kabam basically broke Medusa when they introduced Aarkus. We had months where she could not shutdown champs like KM and they basically had to add another debuff along with armor shatter to make her work as before. Armor shatter was considered as an armor break for all abilities before aarkus was introduced.

    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/157739/killmonger-gaining-armor-after-medusa-armor-shatter/p1

    The funny thing is Kabam initially said it was working as intended there as well and then went back and fixed her.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,657 Guardian
    walkerdog said:

    I guess if u genuinely feel they 100% designed it to be reliant on 100% ability accuracy from day 1 AND just communicated it horribly, fair enough. Its just a huge failure of character description then, which we've seen them do plenty of times too.

    They are kind of in a bind here, because they want to use simple explanations like "stops" rather than "reduces ability accuracy by 100%" because technical descriptions tend to go off the rails often. People still wage religious wars over what "-100%" even means, because they think their interpretation is the one the game should honor, which means even saying "reduces ability accuracy by 100%" wouldn't stop arguments, they'd have to say "reduces ability accuracy modifiers by 100 percentage points" and then include a dictionary in every ability description to eliminate all possible ways of misinterpreting the description.

    Personally, I'd be fine with that, but that would make the game more readable to me, and completely opaque to 99% of the playerbase. That's understandably not a trade the devs want to make. So they make compromises, and every compromise they make on ability descriptions *eventually* blows up on them when the game changes. But the alternate to intermittent arguments is continuous confusion.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,657 Guardian
    walkerdog said:

    DNA3000 said:

    walkerdog said:

    I guess if u genuinely feel they 100% designed it to be reliant on 100% ability accuracy from day 1 AND just communicated it horribly, fair enough. Its just a huge failure of character description then, which we've seen them do plenty of times too.

    They are kind of in a bind here, because they want to use simple explanations like "stops" rather than "reduces ability accuracy by 100%" because technical descriptions tend to go off the rails often. People still wage religious wars over what "-100%" even means, because they think their interpretation is the one the game should honor, which means even saying "reduces ability accuracy by 100%" wouldn't stop arguments, they'd have to say "reduces ability accuracy modifiers by 100 percentage points" and then include a dictionary in every ability description to eliminate all possible ways of misinterpreting the description.

    Personally, I'd be fine with that, but that would make the game more readable to me, and completely opaque to 99% of the playerbase. That's understandably not a trade the devs want to make. So they make compromises, and every compromise they make on ability descriptions *eventually* blows up on them when the game changes. But the alternate to intermittent arguments is continuous confusion.
    One area that might improve things is to re-emphasize (in the tool tips or whatever that scroll on loading screens) that percentages are treated in additive/subtractive, with an example equation.
    They are *almost* always done that way, but there are unfortunately corner case exceptions (poison being one, and I think weakness being another one).

    I think veteran gamers (among other people) think about, and talk about this stuff in a short hand language that I've come to learn over time can be difficult for less experienced players to understand. We talk about "additive" and "multiplicative" buffs emphasizing the computational part, but we sometimes forgot to explain the critical part I think most players don't get. Buffs do not stack on top of base values, they combine with each other. This is a critical thought hurdle.

    If I have an attack that does 1000 points of damage and I buff attack with a 40% fury, we expect damage to increase from 1000 to 1400. Buf if I stack another 40% fury,. do we expect damage to increase by another 40% of base value (400), to 1800, or do we expect the 1400 to increase by 40%, going up to 1960? In fact, *both* mental models are wrong, it is just that one of them coincidentally arrives at the correct answer.

    The correct mental model is to remember that buffs combine with each other first, always. 40% fury combines with 40% fury to get 80% fury. Then it is obvious that 1000 goes up to 1800.

    This mental glitch is the actual source of the "-100%" problem. People say that no matter what value something has, -100% should reduce that to zero, and then any +X% would still be stuck at zero. But that's not how buffs and debuffs work (what I call modifiers as many other games do). Modifiers combine with each other first. If you have -100% something and you also have +50% something that becomes -50% of that something. Because -100 and +50 equals -50. -100% ability accuracy means nothing in isolation. All ability accuracy modifiers must combine with each other first, before they are applied to any ability's final ability accuracy.

    A lot of people think that modifiers are applied sequentially, in some order, on top of the base values. So a -100% modifier should, at any point in the chain, reduce the value to zero. But modifiers do not apply to the base value in any order. They combine with each other first, and then are applied to the base value at the end. Separate from whether a modifier is a multiplicative modifier or an additive modifier, I think understanding this part of how modifiers work is important to understanding how the game mechanics works. But this is not easy to communicate in-game.

    For the expert among us, life is even more potentially complicated, because "additive" and "multiplicative" are themselves ambiguous, because there are four possibilities, not two. Buffs can be additive or multiplicative with each other, and they can be additive or multiplicative with their base value. For example, most buffs are additive with each other but multiplicative with their base value. Fury is additive with other Fury buffs, but the overall fury modifier is multiplicative with Attack. But Ability Accuracy buffs and debuffs are additive with each other and additive to their base value, which is the base Ability Accuracy stat. The stat itself is then multiplicative with individual Ability's ability accuracy.

    We tend to spackle over those gotchas in our heads, but we sometimes forget that the people we're explaining this stuff to cannot do that as easily.
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