Failure in Communication: AI Changes
BitterSteel
Member Posts: 9,264 ★★★★★
I hate that I feel the need to make this post, I hope that I've got enough credibility here to show that I'm not the sort of person to endlessly attack Kabam over every minute detail but I think we all just feel a little bit like we're in the dark here - and it's gone on too long. I would ask everyone in this thread who comments stays respectful of others, so we can get either a discussion going or ideally a response.
In November of 2021, @DrZola made this post here:
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/287939/ai-tweaks-and-the-effectiveness-of-taunt/p1
He commented on the fact that the AI seemed to be throwing less specials while taunted, mentioning "There’s ample complaining about the passive AI" showing that this was not the only issue going on at the time. I then commented saying "Over the last few weeks I’ve noticed a dramatic decrease in defenders throwing specials. I haven’t posted about it because I wanted to be sure". Even in November 2021, this was not a new issue.
Within a few days, Zola's thread was moved to Bugs and Known issues, great, the thread has been seen and read. I figured it's been moved to the relevant part of the forum so it can be addressed. Since the end of November 2021, there has been 0 word on it. That's 176 days, 25 weeks or nearly six months. Even at the start of this particular thread people were saying "The silence is frustrating" showing it's being raised elsewhere. If you thought it was frustrating then, it's frankly infuriating now.
This wasn't a thread that was posted once then died, no, it was bumped in December, February, March and now I bumped it one last time a week ago. All of the comments in that thread are respectful, factual and helpful to get to the bottom of what the issues are.
Personally, "disappointed" falls short of how I feel, there are an absolute catalogue of AI issues at the moment all of which have been discussed and explained in that thread and we have been left in the dark for 6 months. To constantly be posting on a thread that has us desperately trying to get Kabam's attention on an issue that (and I don't say this lightly) ruins my experience of the game, is so disheartening and feels like the drastic failure in communication that my title refers to.
These are not minor issues that you can shrug off, we are playing hard content and the AI is doing things that catch us out it has never done before (I'll go through a pretty comprehensive list soon). The AI hasn't been acting this consistently weird since the Map 5 AI change years ago. And Kabam commented pretty sharpish on that one, why not here?
Now, AI changes alone I could deal with. If it's an annoying part of the game I have to deal with a little while it's being sorted I can cope. But the utter radio silence is more than disheartening. I don't want it to feel like this, and I can only hope that Kabam doesn't either, but it feels like we are being ignored, the issues swept under the rug, and we are expected to just deal with it.
Eternity of Pain has been going on, and so far the number one biggest challenge for me has been the AI. Not the nodes, which in ordinary times would be interesting, challenging and fun. But after dying for the 15th time because I got light intercepted, or the AI held onto a special for 30 seconds, I no longer feel the challenge of the nodes. I am faced with a fight that I hate playing because the AI is a pain.
I have spoken to a lot of alliance mates, friends in Line chats and members of the forum. Whether it's the changes themselves, or the ignoring of our issues, almost everyone I speak to has some sort of issue with it. I'm posting this here because there's only so many times you can ask for an update in a thread that seems to have been put on "Do not Disturb" by the moderators. They could be just about to press post on a detailed explanation of the AI changes and I'll look silly, or they may not have even opened it.
Now, regarding the issues themselves, here are all of the oddities I've experienced or heard others have:
- The AI walking forward and throwing lights out of nowhere when they would have dashed before, catching us off guard when we want to parry
- The AI throwing lights out of nowhere when back against the wall, making heavy chaining tough with some champions
- The AI being so against throwing specials, spending up to a minute baiting specials in time sensitive content is so demoralising
- The AI stuttering sometimes, so you dash back ready to evade, dex, parry or whatever but since they stuttered, they then initiate the dash and catch you. Almost like a false start in a sprint.
- Players not being able to dash forward after knocking opponents down and catch them as they stand up, this used to be something I could do 95% of the time. Now it’s about 5%.
- Much quicker AI recovery from heavy attacks and Special attacks
- Dashing back and holding heavy sometimes doesn’t work, the input doesn’t register. This is noticeable with champs like tigra, Karnak and she hulk who need to heavy counter. You end up just standing there and waiting for the opponent to recover, since you may not notice this often ends up eating a combo
- The AI sidestepping you, you dash at them and they perfectly step your dash and retaliate
- The AI used to throw specials or not throw specials in a routine way, like them blocking after you dash back, they never threw a special. So you could dash back in, tap their blocks a couple times and dash back to carry on baiting. Now, the AI stutters and taps their block on and off a couple times so when you dash back in, they just special intercept you.
- Throwing light attacks when infuriated. With Hercules we used to be able to consistently infuriate them dash back, light, dash back light over and over to build up feats. The AI used to dash at you a lot, this ties in with the previous points on light attacks but now the AI will take a couple steps and light attack you.
- General passiveness of the AI, not dashing in or being reluctant to do so
- The AI now takes a little bit longer to dash in when you're readying for a parry. This means you could be getting ready for them to dash in while you walk towards them, your muscle memory knows when to parry so you tap block, but the AI takes a second longer now so when they do dash it hits your block instead of a parry. This can also tie in to the light intercepts they do that catch us off as explained in the first point
- The AI throws specials at a different point now as well. What I mean by that is that usually, you leave yourself open to bait a special, the opponent dashes at you and you sidestep them and you're open again. In those periods of leaving yourself open that is when the AI throws a special. But now, they are waiting a split second until either you're already dashing back and you are unable to dash, since you're already dashing, or at another point when you're unable to dash. This is especially noticeable against someone like Green Goblin SP2 who requires insanely precise timing and now just hits you.
Let's be honest, if even a quarter of those are afflicting the game it would be annoying. All or most of them? This is the number one thing that is pushing me to dial back game time. I don't want to lose in war and cost us a win because the AI held onto a special for 45 seconds. I don't want to start and restart EoP 20 times because I can't parry so that means I go for intercepts that would generally be safe but now the AI just deftly sidesteps as though they've been watching a tutorial.
Any moderators reading this, please just give us an answer. I don't think I've ever been this disappointed with the lack of communication and that's no exaggeration, I don't think a big issue like this has ever been flat out ignored. Yes we've had unideal answers, or things we disagree with as a community but no issue this big has ever been swept under the rug this way. I have written all this bearing in mind any Kabam employee involved here is a person with feelings, so I haven't attacked or insulted anyone and I'd ask any commenter to do the same.
In November of 2021, @DrZola made this post here:
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/287939/ai-tweaks-and-the-effectiveness-of-taunt/p1
He commented on the fact that the AI seemed to be throwing less specials while taunted, mentioning "There’s ample complaining about the passive AI" showing that this was not the only issue going on at the time. I then commented saying "Over the last few weeks I’ve noticed a dramatic decrease in defenders throwing specials. I haven’t posted about it because I wanted to be sure". Even in November 2021, this was not a new issue.
Within a few days, Zola's thread was moved to Bugs and Known issues, great, the thread has been seen and read. I figured it's been moved to the relevant part of the forum so it can be addressed. Since the end of November 2021, there has been 0 word on it. That's 176 days, 25 weeks or nearly six months. Even at the start of this particular thread people were saying "The silence is frustrating" showing it's being raised elsewhere. If you thought it was frustrating then, it's frankly infuriating now.
This wasn't a thread that was posted once then died, no, it was bumped in December, February, March and now I bumped it one last time a week ago. All of the comments in that thread are respectful, factual and helpful to get to the bottom of what the issues are.
Personally, "disappointed" falls short of how I feel, there are an absolute catalogue of AI issues at the moment all of which have been discussed and explained in that thread and we have been left in the dark for 6 months. To constantly be posting on a thread that has us desperately trying to get Kabam's attention on an issue that (and I don't say this lightly) ruins my experience of the game, is so disheartening and feels like the drastic failure in communication that my title refers to.
These are not minor issues that you can shrug off, we are playing hard content and the AI is doing things that catch us out it has never done before (I'll go through a pretty comprehensive list soon). The AI hasn't been acting this consistently weird since the Map 5 AI change years ago. And Kabam commented pretty sharpish on that one, why not here?
Now, AI changes alone I could deal with. If it's an annoying part of the game I have to deal with a little while it's being sorted I can cope. But the utter radio silence is more than disheartening. I don't want it to feel like this, and I can only hope that Kabam doesn't either, but it feels like we are being ignored, the issues swept under the rug, and we are expected to just deal with it.
Eternity of Pain has been going on, and so far the number one biggest challenge for me has been the AI. Not the nodes, which in ordinary times would be interesting, challenging and fun. But after dying for the 15th time because I got light intercepted, or the AI held onto a special for 30 seconds, I no longer feel the challenge of the nodes. I am faced with a fight that I hate playing because the AI is a pain.
I have spoken to a lot of alliance mates, friends in Line chats and members of the forum. Whether it's the changes themselves, or the ignoring of our issues, almost everyone I speak to has some sort of issue with it. I'm posting this here because there's only so many times you can ask for an update in a thread that seems to have been put on "Do not Disturb" by the moderators. They could be just about to press post on a detailed explanation of the AI changes and I'll look silly, or they may not have even opened it.
Now, regarding the issues themselves, here are all of the oddities I've experienced or heard others have:
- The AI walking forward and throwing lights out of nowhere when they would have dashed before, catching us off guard when we want to parry
- The AI throwing lights out of nowhere when back against the wall, making heavy chaining tough with some champions
- The AI being so against throwing specials, spending up to a minute baiting specials in time sensitive content is so demoralising
- The AI stuttering sometimes, so you dash back ready to evade, dex, parry or whatever but since they stuttered, they then initiate the dash and catch you. Almost like a false start in a sprint.
- Players not being able to dash forward after knocking opponents down and catch them as they stand up, this used to be something I could do 95% of the time. Now it’s about 5%.
- Much quicker AI recovery from heavy attacks and Special attacks
- Dashing back and holding heavy sometimes doesn’t work, the input doesn’t register. This is noticeable with champs like tigra, Karnak and she hulk who need to heavy counter. You end up just standing there and waiting for the opponent to recover, since you may not notice this often ends up eating a combo
- The AI sidestepping you, you dash at them and they perfectly step your dash and retaliate
- The AI used to throw specials or not throw specials in a routine way, like them blocking after you dash back, they never threw a special. So you could dash back in, tap their blocks a couple times and dash back to carry on baiting. Now, the AI stutters and taps their block on and off a couple times so when you dash back in, they just special intercept you.
- Throwing light attacks when infuriated. With Hercules we used to be able to consistently infuriate them dash back, light, dash back light over and over to build up feats. The AI used to dash at you a lot, this ties in with the previous points on light attacks but now the AI will take a couple steps and light attack you.
- General passiveness of the AI, not dashing in or being reluctant to do so
- The AI now takes a little bit longer to dash in when you're readying for a parry. This means you could be getting ready for them to dash in while you walk towards them, your muscle memory knows when to parry so you tap block, but the AI takes a second longer now so when they do dash it hits your block instead of a parry. This can also tie in to the light intercepts they do that catch us off as explained in the first point
- The AI throws specials at a different point now as well. What I mean by that is that usually, you leave yourself open to bait a special, the opponent dashes at you and you sidestep them and you're open again. In those periods of leaving yourself open that is when the AI throws a special. But now, they are waiting a split second until either you're already dashing back and you are unable to dash, since you're already dashing, or at another point when you're unable to dash. This is especially noticeable against someone like Green Goblin SP2 who requires insanely precise timing and now just hits you.
Let's be honest, if even a quarter of those are afflicting the game it would be annoying. All or most of them? This is the number one thing that is pushing me to dial back game time. I don't want to lose in war and cost us a win because the AI held onto a special for 45 seconds. I don't want to start and restart EoP 20 times because I can't parry so that means I go for intercepts that would generally be safe but now the AI just deftly sidesteps as though they've been watching a tutorial.
Any moderators reading this, please just give us an answer. I don't think I've ever been this disappointed with the lack of communication and that's no exaggeration, I don't think a big issue like this has ever been flat out ignored. Yes we've had unideal answers, or things we disagree with as a community but no issue this big has ever been swept under the rug this way. I have written all this bearing in mind any Kabam employee involved here is a person with feelings, so I haven't attacked or insulted anyone and I'd ask any commenter to do the same.
Post edited by Kabam Miike on
100
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Well said Bittersteel, I'd upvote this thread more than i already have.
but it definitely exists now. i wont' even mention the heavy attack failures. my #1 annoyance right now is the failure to get specials.
It was then acknowledged and fixed.
But this brought on the AI change that causes AI to casually walk up to you when you wiff an attack. They stay in front of you for some time idle and will parry(*) you if you attempt an attack. This is experienced everyday and can be used to our advantage too.
6:20 time stamp.
Losing a war and maybe due to that a complete tier in war rewards or doing the same fight 100 times due to lack of AI cooperation just makes me want to stop playing.
I was actually discussing the response (or lack of) to this bug, not necessarily just the bug itself which is why I posted it in general discussion. But if the thread is here and is responded to then that’s fine by me.
iPhone 12
14.8.1
Issues have existed since July 2021 with different levels of consistency and severity depending on mcoc app version it seems.
Issues are:
1.Dex timing changed dramatically from being the as late as the last striking animation frame before being hit to extremely early, as an opponent dash is initiated. Currently this is as bad as it’s ever been. Have to anticipate attacks vs reacting which is basically guesswork and fails in a long enough fight.
2. Parry and reparry timing inconsistent, early, late, normal, impossible, changes with the wind.
3. Flickering opponent idle/block animation. Sucks all the fluidity out of the gameplay. Nightmare when combined with issue 1 and 2
4. Opponent can recover and intercept or dex my attack faster than I can punish their missed attacks be that their heavies, specials or combo ending medium attacks that i have blocked or avoided.
5. Opponent can intercept the first hit of my heavy attack with light or medium. Cannot reliably heavy spam with any champ anymore. Pre-issues completed villain variant with r3 4* venom. If you know, you know.
6. Opponent can punish me dashing back after hitting them or their block with a non combo ending attack, ie as I dash back from them being locked in a block animation they can hit me before my dash back is complete.
7. There are infrequent pauses between the last hit of my combo chaining into a special attack allowing the opponent to block or counter. Sometimes the final hit of my combo just does not register as an input.
8. Cannot chain heavies into specials on occasion. Particular issue with she hulk. Reported as a bug = crickets
9. Attacks often whiff when attempting to punish opponent. Nightmare when combined with 4
10. Unable to intercept opponent when they are standing up without being light intercepted myself. Used to be bread and butter tactic of my gameplay.
Overall I’d just describe my current experience of the game during the last 10 months as not being in full control of my champ. My character feels like they are moving at half speed, whereas the opponent is moving at double speed. Sometimes the opponent crosses the screen in what feels like a single frame of animation. This is just getting worse month by month it seems.
It appears the window to perform functions has reduced to a fraction of the old normal (say pre SOP) or has just disappeared completely. Confusing thing is that none of this is consistent in how and when it occurs but all occur frequently.
That makes it hard to understand what is a potential bug and what is intended AI change.
Give us some communication and throw us a bone, my accounts are on deletion timer for about 2-3 more weeks before evaporating. I’d like to enjoy the game longer but I’ve lost patience. It’s been pretty much a year now…
Does this mean the abject failure of communication from the team on this issue is a bug? Because I thought it was a feature.
Dr. Zola
Dr. Zola
one facepalms you, one exhausts you and one straight flattens you.
Dr. Zola
I also just tried EoP wk3, and got Bleed debuff when I was hitting into Blade's block (not Reparry, he was holding block).
Does anyone else have similarly experience?
Could the change of AI part of the launch of BG?
It won’t be due to the launch of BGs, these changes have been noticed as far back as August last year.
You can dismiss it as mob mentality as much as you want to try and get a rise out of people. But we all know it’s happening, and I’m not interested in a debate about it with you. I’ve put forward what’s going on, others overwhelmingly agree, I don’t need to prove it to you I’m just asking for communication from Kabam - not reiteration of what Miike may have once said.
I don’t want this topic de-railed so I’m not going to continue a debate with you. I’d ask everyone else to not get dragged into one either, so we can keep this topic on track.