Neutralize Update [Merged Threads]

Musha27

There are some champions and many nodes with AAR. Some of those champions don't even gain buffs like Archangel but he's now immune to this. This becomes a very big issue if can't even pause her senses. We don't want rank down tickets, we want you to fix this. So many people have invested resources in these champions. Why can't you fix normal issues, instead you're nerfing tigra, rintrah,etc. You're can't even make red hulk incerate immune.

WraitHUN

I have a big problem about this nerf...

I have 6r4 sig 200 tigra, and they made her useless...

Why is the reason for she can't place neutarlize on AA Immun champ without AA reduction?

SpideyFunko

they didn’t make her useless

neutralize reduces buff ability accuracy by 100%

BitterSteel

I feel for you, but the reason she can’t place it anymore is that archangel is immune to ability accuracy modifications and neutralise is an ability accuracy modification.

It’s the same with Apoc not placing concussion.

It definitely sucks, but looking at it optimistically it’s only 5 champions and 1 node that are immune to AAR. So she will still be 99.9% the champ she was before the change

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Dark_hoods

BitterSteel said:

I feel for you, but the reason she can’t place it anymore is that archangel is immune to ability accuracy modifications and neutralise is an ability accuracy modification.

It’s the same with Apoc not placing concussion.

It definitely sucks, but looking at it optimistically it’s only 5 champions and 1 node that are immune to AAR. So she will still be 99.9% the champ she was before the change

Yeah, basically depends how often they want to use the node going forward

K00shMaan

I don't think it's just one node affected. Wouldn't anything that enhances Ability Accuracy also be affected. Don't know how many nodes have that text but it's at least one more.

Colinwhitworth69

BitterSteel said:

I feel for you, but the reason she can’t place it anymore is that archangel is immune to ability accuracy modifications and neutralise is an ability accuracy modification.

It’s the same with Apoc not placing concussion.

It definitely sucks, but looking at it optimistically it’s only 5 champions and 1 node that are immune to AAR. So she will still be 99.9% the champ she was before the change

I demand 0.1% of a rank down ticket.

Buttehrs

Colinwhitworth69 said:

BitterSteel said:

I feel for you, but the reason she can’t place it anymore is that archangel is immune to ability accuracy modifications and neutralise is an ability accuracy modification.

It’s the same with Apoc not placing concussion.

It definitely sucks, but looking at it optimistically it’s only 5 champions and 1 node that are immune to AAR. So she will still be 99.9% the champ she was before the change

I demand 0.1% of a rank down ticket.

See. Called it rdt talk is coming back. Next up is compensation lol.

Ultimatheory

BitterSteel said:

It definitely sucks, but looking at it optimistically it’s only 5 champions and 1 node that are immune to AAR. So she will still be 99.9% the champ she was before the change

J0eySn0w

She should be able to still apply the neutralize passive on opponents that are immune to AAR, however the opponent's buff abilities should work outside of neutralize to reflect their immunity to the buff ability accuracy reduction. There are similar in-game examples: Falcon will trigger Lock-On against opponents/nodes that are immune to AAR, opponent's defensive abilities will still work fine to show they're immune. Champions immune to AAR doesn't mean Archangel cannot apply neurotoxins to them, he can but their abilities will work outside of the neurotoxins. I'd think champions specifically immune to neutralize will prevent the application of the neutralize.
Did some tests:
- Ultron interactions with Tigra: Ultron's function abilities are unaffected by ability accuracy. Tigra applies neutralize but Ultron is still able to trigger his buffs outside of the neutralize on him. This is how it should work.
- Tigra against Mysterio: Mysterio's ability accuracy cannot be reduced unless unless his helmet is cracked. With his helmet intact Tigra is not apply to apply neutralize. Something does't add up here.
The implementation of neutralize interaction with ability accuracy immunity needs some looking into or more explanation from the team.
Edit:
I wouldn't say it's a nerf, rather either a bug or we need more info.

FunnyDude

this sucks, Kabam should explain.

danielmath

Like with moleman, you had to know they would fix this eventually

AyrusSeth

danielmath said:

Like with moleman, you had to know they would fix this eventually

Not denying it, but the implementation part needs a relook.

Jinx0051

If you're genuinely angry about this, then you need to take a step back and really think about what you're saying

BitterSteel

K00shMaan said:

I don't think it's just one node affected. Wouldn't anything that enhances Ability Accuracy also be affected. Don't know how many nodes have that text but it's at least one more.

This isn’t accurate, tigra already didn’t work to prevent buffs against enhanced ability accuracy.

Her neutralise still applies, they just have more accuracy and buffs can get through.

xNig

I have a R4 Sig 200 Tigra.

Tbh it’s not a big deal.

Tigra wasn’t working against Force of Will in the first place. There are just a few champs that are immune to AAR, none of which is ridiculously hard to fight without her.

As much as I don’t enjoy getting one of my most used champs neutered down, it goes in line with what Kabam has been doing for years, similar to the “nerf” of stun immunity against AA’s neurotoxin passive stuns.

Just chill and enjoy the game guys.

Fryday

So I think Bero's perspective on this is interesting and the solution also seem to be much more effective. It would resolve the problem from both the players and developers view.

Feel like it is something that maybe the Kabam team could revisit, was wondering if @Kabam Miike or @Kabam Jax could pass this back to the development team that over see this.

BitterSteel

xNig said:

I have a R4 Sig 200 Tigra.

Tbh it’s not a big deal.

Tigra wasn’t working against Force of Will in the first place. There are just a few champs that are immune to AAR, none of which is ridiculously hard to fight without her.

As much as I don’t enjoy getting one of my most used champs neutered down, it goes in line with what Kabam has been doing for years, similar to the “nerf” of stun immunity against AA’s neurotoxin passive stuns.

Just chill and enjoy the game guys.

Yeah I’m on the same page here. It definitely sucks. But it’s no less annoying than archangel having a bleed immune node being put on a fight. Or ghost having an armour break put on the fight. Or quake having a true strike being put on the fight.

My R4 sig 200 tigra will be quite happy destroying 99.9% of the fights she used to.

BitterSteel

Fryday said:

So I think Bero's perspective on this is interesting and the solution also seem to be much more effective. It would resolve the problem from both the players and developers view.

Feel like it is something that maybe the Kabam team could revisit, was wondering if @Kabam Miike or @Kabam Jax could pass this back to the development team that over see this.

Unfortunately he’s wrong. Increased ability accuracy is not the same as immune to ability accuracy.

If a champion has an increased chance to proc something then neutralise can apply but it just won’t reduce it to 0% as usual

If a champion is immune to something then it just simply cannot apply. Neutralise is an ability accuracy reduction, therefore champions can be immune to it.

Neutralise won’t apply to champion immune to it in the same way bleed won’t apply to a bleed immune.

AyrusSeth

BitterSteel said:

Fryday said:

So I think Bero's perspective on this is interesting and the solution also seem to be much more effective. It would resolve the problem from both the players and developers view.

Feel like it is something that maybe the Kabam team could revisit, was wondering if @Kabam Miike or @Kabam Jax could pass this back to the development team that over see this.

Unfortunately he’s wrong. Increased ability accuracy is not the same as immune to ability accuracy.

If a champion has an increased chance to proc something then neutralise can apply but it just won’t reduce it to 0% as usual

If a champion is immune to something then it just simply cannot apply. Neutralise is an ability accuracy reduction, therefore champions can be immune to it.

Neutralise won’t apply to champion immune to it in the same way bleed won’t apply to a bleed immune.

If that's the case, then magneto's magnetised passive should not proc just like tigra's neutralize, cuz it reduce ability accuracy, a champ immune to ability accuracy reduction or on force of will node, should not deal with magneto's magnetized passive

AverageDesi

I feel like players asking for the Devs to compromise and arrive at a middle ground on game mechanics is ridiculous. I think they wouldn't and shouldn't change it just because players are unhappy. It's one thing to suggest changes to champions themselves but saying tigra should be able to place neutralise but not have any effect is not good.

If game consistency requires "nerfing " champs then let it be.

If they really want then the solution could be that landing hits pause tigra's senses for 2.5 seconds instead of tying it to presence of neutralize

Worknprogress

AyrusSeth said:

BitterSteel said:

Fryday said:

So I think Bero's perspective on this is interesting and the solution also seem to be much more effective. It would resolve the problem from both the players and developers view.

Feel like it is something that maybe the Kabam team could revisit, was wondering if @Kabam Miike or @Kabam Jax could pass this back to the development team that over see this.

Unfortunately he’s wrong. Increased ability accuracy is not the same as immune to ability accuracy.

If a champion has an increased chance to proc something then neutralise can apply but it just won’t reduce it to 0% as usual

If a champion is immune to something then it just simply cannot apply. Neutralise is an ability accuracy reduction, therefore champions can be immune to it.

Neutralise won’t apply to champion immune to it in the same way bleed won’t apply to a bleed immune.

If that's the case, then magneto's magnetised passive should not proc just like tigra's neutralize, cuz it reduce ability accuracy, a champ immune to ability accuracy reduction or on force of will node, should not deal with magneto's magnetized passive

Magnetize has more than one effect which is why it still procs. Neutralize has one effect, reducing buff ability accuracy so it, just like concussion, doesn't even proc against an AAR immune opponent.

xNig

BitterSteel said:

xNig said:

I have a R4 Sig 200 Tigra.

Tbh it’s not a big deal.

Tigra wasn’t working against Force of Will in the first place. There are just a few champs that are immune to AAR, none of which is ridiculously hard to fight without her.

As much as I don’t enjoy getting one of my most used champs neutered down, it goes in line with what Kabam has been doing for years, similar to the “nerf” of stun immunity against AA’s neurotoxin passive stuns.

Just chill and enjoy the game guys.

Yeah I’m on the same page here. It definitely sucks. But it’s no less annoying than archangel having a bleed immune node being put on a fight. Or ghost having an armour break put on the fight. Or quake having a true strike being put on the fight.

My R4 sig 200 tigra will be quite happy destroying 99.9% of the fights she used to.

Yeah. It doesn’t affect THAT much. Just some over-reaction imo.

If there’s a real need to remove buffs or whatever, just use a nullify/stagger attacker. 😂

Worknprogress

AverageDesi said:

I feel like players asking for the Devs to compromise and arrive at a middle ground on game mechanics is ridiculous. I think they wouldn't and shouldn't change it just because players are unhappy. It's one thing to suggest changes to champions themselves but saying tigra should be able to place neutralise but not have any effect is not good.

If game consistency requires "nerfing " champs then let it be.

If they really want then the solution could be that landing hits pause tigra's senses for 2.5 seconds instead of tying it to presence of neutralize

They shouldn't change anything. Certain champs have bad matchups I don't get why people are acting like this is some new atrocity. If the change didn't make any sense it would be one thing but it makes complete sense given how other effects are treated against immunity so people really just need to get over it.

Ercarret

One thing to keep in mind here is the whole Wiccan situation from last month where even buff immunity wasn't enough to prevent him from placing incinerates on you. I wouldn't be surprised if this is, in part, an attempt by Kabam to make neutralize fall more in line with some kind of reason. There has to be some kind of way to counteract it, especially when facing a defender with neutralize. This is that counter, and it is exactly how neutralize should work.

I also have an r4 Tigra and I have no problem with this as long as they don't start spamming Force of Will everywhere similarly to how they were spamming True Strike a few years ago in order to counter Ghost and Quake. But if it's just an occasional roadblock, then so be it. It'll suck here and there - I'm actually on a path right now where the final miniboss would have been excellent Tigra food if not for this new interaction - but she'll still crush so much content in the game. She's an insane champion. An inability to fight half a dozen champions out of 200+ won't really change that in any substantial way.

Secret_Gamer

AyrusSeth said:

BitterSteel said:

Fryday said:

So I think Bero's perspective on this is interesting and the solution also seem to be much more effective. It would resolve the problem from both the players and developers view.

Feel like it is something that maybe the Kabam team could revisit, was wondering if @Kabam Miike or @Kabam Jax could pass this back to the development team that over see this.

Unfortunately he’s wrong. Increased ability accuracy is not the same as immune to ability accuracy.

If a champion has an increased chance to proc something then neutralise can apply but it just won’t reduce it to 0% as usual

If a champion is immune to something then it just simply cannot apply. Neutralise is an ability accuracy reduction, therefore champions can be immune to it.

Neutralise won’t apply to champion immune to it in the same way bleed won’t apply to a bleed immune.

If that's the case, then magneto's magnetised passive should not proc just like tigra's neutralize, cuz it reduce ability accuracy, a champ immune to ability accuracy reduction or on force of will node, should not deal with magneto's magnetized passive

It does proc but doesn't reduce AAR on immune champions. Take Mysterio for example, while he has his glass helmet active, he won't have a problem to use his abilities while fighting Magneto.

Jinx0051

If you're trying to compare a debuff to a passive ability that has multiple effects and not just aar, and also trying to agree with bero on anything, then you're not gonna go far

BitterSteel

AyrusSeth said:

BitterSteel said:

Fryday said:

So I think Bero's perspective on this is interesting and the solution also seem to be much more effective. It would resolve the problem from both the players and developers view.

Feel like it is something that maybe the Kabam team could revisit, was wondering if @Kabam Miike or @Kabam Jax could pass this back to the development team that over see this.

Unfortunately he’s wrong. Increased ability accuracy is not the same as immune to ability accuracy.

If a champion has an increased chance to proc something then neutralise can apply but it just won’t reduce it to 0% as usual

If a champion is immune to something then it just simply cannot apply. Neutralise is an ability accuracy reduction, therefore champions can be immune to it.

Neutralise won’t apply to champion immune to it in the same way bleed won’t apply to a bleed immune.

If that's the case, then magneto's magnetised passive should not proc just like tigra's neutralize, cuz it reduce ability accuracy, a champ immune to ability accuracy reduction or on force of will node, should not deal with magneto's magnetized passive

As Work already pointed out, Mags has a secondary effect of reducing heal potency.

It’s like disorient reducing DAA and block proficiency, that can still apply to immune to AAR champions because they’re not immune to having their block proficiency reduced

Theoretically if Weapon X were placed on an immune to AAR node, he shouldn’t be magnetised because he’s immune to regen rate reduction and AAR. However I’m not sure if it actually would, because at the moment AAR and immunity to AAR is an extremely inconsistent interaction:

Slow working on immune to AAR, Falcon working on immunity to AAR, Apoc’s shrug off counter working against AAR.

It’s all new abilities and different ways to reduce AAR that immunity to AAR hasn’t been updated for.

I’d personally rather a non bugged game, that works correctly than pro player bugs. Consistency is better. This game is already complex enough without some things working in one place, and other identical things not working.

Maratox

Musha27 said:

There are some champions and many nodes with AAR. Some of those champions don't even gain buffs like Archangel but he's now immune to this. This becomes a very big issue if can't even pause her senses. We don't want rank down tickets, we want you to fix this. So many people have invested resources in these champions. Why can't you fix normal issues, instead you're nerfing tigra, rintrah,etc. You're can't even make red hulk incerate immune.

Other topic aside, Why do you think red hulk needs to be incinerate immune? His shrug off is still very good.

Heattblastt

BitterSteel said:

As Work already pointed out, Mags has a secondary effect of reducing heal potency.

It’s like disorient reducing DAA and block proficiency, that can still apply to immune to AAR champions because they’re not immune to having their block proficiency reduced

Theoretically if Weapon X were placed on an immune to AAR node, he shouldn’t be magnetised because he’s immune to regen rate reduction and AAR. However I’m not sure if it actually would, because at the moment AAR and immunity to AAR is an extremely inconsistent interaction:

Slow working on immune to AAR, Falcon working on immunity to AAR, Apoc’s shrug off counter working against AAR.

It’s all new abilities and different ways to reduce AAR that immunity to AAR hasn’t been updated for.

I’d personally rather a non bugged game, that works correctly than pro player bugs. Consistency is better. This game is already complex enough without some things working in one place, and other identical things not working.

What other work Neurotoxin have when Archangel is unawakened? So neurotoxins of unawakened archangel should not apply to aar immune champs.