Honestly I’m excited about it. Pulling new champs is the best part of the game for me, and my 6* roster is only missing a handful of champs so it doesn’t happen often. Getting the new highest rarity of a champ like Doom is gonna feel so good all over again.
Yep, I’m pretty much the same. I now only have 5 new champions in the basic that I would genuinely be happy pulling. Kitty, Toad, Odin, Man Thing and Mojo. There are some others I’d be happy duping too though.
I’m looking forward to going for new 7* champs and building up my roster. I had hoped to have a little more time focussing on 6*s exclusively, and it feels a little early. But I’m right there with you on this one.
Honestly I’m excited about it. Pulling new champs is the best part of the game for me, and my 6* roster is only missing a handful of champs so it doesn’t happen often. Getting the new highest rarity of a champ like Doom is gonna feel so good all over again.
You both are in the minority then
Based on the level of opposition and complaints surrounding the progression announcement, and 7* champs in particular, I would say that is not a safe assumption. True, there are more people complaining than appreciating, but you have to factor in a few things for context. There's always more complaints than favorable comments, because people with complaints are more incentivized to complain. Compared to other things people have complained about, 7* champs have not generated the levels of complaint I would have expected if they were universally derided.
Secondly, a number of people are threatening to quit over it, but my recollection says not nearly as much as did when 6* champs were introduced. And after 6* champs were introduced, the level of that mass exodus from the game was so tiny it was impossible to notice in the game's numbers or participation statistics. Yes, I did in fact look at them at the time.
The majority of players don't actively complain or actively promote. The majority of players simply accept the game is a game, the game changes over time, and play the game accordingly. If there was some large majority of players to hated 7* champs, I see no evidence of it at the moment, based on my experience monitoring things like the forums, the Reddit, and other areas of discussion. That people are complaining is not significant. How many are complaining compared to past issues is significant. At the moment, it isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things.
They stated 2 other ways to get more power out of your 6*. And there's 2 new champs every month, to keep you chasing champs. To keep the game from going stale, they need to make more and better content, battlegrounds was awsome till they tossed up a pay wall. Making me get a 7th ghost seems stale. All it's going to do is make my 6* ghost useless, like my 5*s are now. I just wish they came up with a better idea then me opening a 7* and getting a groot again. Perhaps if they kept up on the buffs to crappy champions maybe it wouldn't be so bad. My fist 10 6* where ****, and still sitting at rank 1. I understand the game needs to progress, or it will die, and it is what it is ( a business) but it just don't sit right, seems more like a chore then fun. Grind away to get a champ and rank up just to have it replaced over and over again by an extra star. Now to get to the next progression I'm gonna need what 5 r3 7*. It probably wouldn't bother me to much if progression was based on completion of story and not how many offers I can buy to rank up my shinny new 7*. All that said I'll still play, I just have no interest in spending more money on this game, and I think others will think that way to, so it'll be the death of the game, no money coming in means no updates, no new champs, no buffs. Hopefully I'm wrong, and people will still spend.
So how do you suggest they make "more and better" content? EoP has already become boring. 8.1 is a breeze with only a few fun fights. Battlegrounds is good but rewards to effort is eh and a little too pay to play.
What constitutes better content to you? Keep in mind that we've had act 6 nerfed twice now. Story content is no longer endgame content and variants haven't been good in a long time.
People will always spend on the game. 7*'s won't change that. Relics won't change that and neither will ascensions.
Game won't die but many players will leave Game can't die as long as money inflow continues And with new progressions that inflow will increase (which is the reason we're getting all of this even though it's totally unnecessary at present)
Most Whales will probably continue Many F2Ps will also continue And these changes won't feel as drastic to newer players as it does to us so they'll also keep coming I assume at max 10-15% players will leave the game most of which will be F2Ps
So no the game won't die, but yeah many will leave or get a bit relaxed instead of being competitive
May not be the death of the game but definitely the end for a lot of players.They can only take so much.Spending all that time and money building a roster just to have it lazily knocked down because the cheap addition of another star on the characters they already own.
What’s the point invest even more for 8*s to make any effort in 7*s feel like a waste where’s it end besides when the game ends making the total of all efforts a complete waste of time and money basically a waste with nothing to show.
I’m grateful for 7*s it a wake up call that any minute any dime spent in the game is for nothing.Clearly it just keeps happening 3*s,4*s,5*s,6*s,7*s..Is Kabam so creatively bankrupted they can’t do something different besides add a *,some stats and a cheap gimmick to characters.
So you didnt read the post then. This whole idea that 7* will make your current roster obsolete was greatly tackled by kabam if you bother reading the whole thing
I don’t necessary think they shouldn’t come into the game. However I do think Spring 2023 is sooner than I’d have anticipated I’d have felt more at ease if they were a bit further on the horizon. My only hope is that there is some kind of selector or wish crystal available at the same time to at least give people a bit of a head start in the new “here we go again” grind. As someone STILL hunting a 6* Hercules dupe and doing everything I possibly can to try and get him waking up this morning the thought of finally duping him does feel a little less shiny because at the back of my mind I’m thinking yes he’ll still be amazing for a few months after the 7* release but he won’t be the best anymore and it could be years before I get a 7* version!
The vast majority of the "huge reaction / massive complain" threads in the forums have always been imaginary, by people who cannot grasp the notion that the progress of other players does NOT affect them, UNLESS they want to be competing against the top 10% of the game. And of course at this case, the carrot and the whip applies, they always have to push harder under the fear of getting left behind. This is all in your head folks, no-one is forcing you to play catch up with the pinnacle alliance / players of the game, but if you do want that, hey, Kabam is here to offer you your drug of choice, for a (not so small) fee for their trouble. Be my guest and knock yourselves out. Hey, those corporate bonuses at the end of the year are not gonna pay themselves!
New title...? I don't care. 7*...? Sure. Ascension...? Why not? Relics...? Bring it on.
I have learned to play and ENJOY the game at my own pace. Kabam can offer what they offer. I take and I pay for what I enjoy.
Or you could just create really interesting, well-tuned content for the rarities that are already in game.
Dr. Zola
Story quest moved away from that years ago now.
We have battlegrounds, gauntlet, EoP and war where you need higher ranks. That seems good enough for me personally. That’s why I want higher ranks on my champions
Fights like GM and Collector weren’t interesting? Even some of the Act 6 fights that required forethought and trade offs weren’t interesting? Surely EoP and Gauntlet and even boss rushes have sometimes been interesting. I hear players lamenting how hard the old Act 6 was before the downward adjustments. So some of that must have been more than boredom.
I suppose what disappoints me most is that this feels like an admission the creative well has run dry.
Dr. Zola
I think you’re misunderstanding me.
Story quests are still interesting to the vast majority of the player base, and still has challenging fights and quests that benefit from the extra ranks. But story quest is no longer the act 6 of old where it’s so difficult that you need the highest rank of the day
That sort of content is now in BGs and War, where you need rank 4 champions to push the highest ranks. The hard content is now Eop and gauntlet where it’s going to be hard if you don’t have plenty of rank 3s and a few R4s.
Questing is now where the designers can make things a little easier on most players, and extra ranks help, but they’re not as necessary as they used to be.
So no, maybe the quest content isn’t completely tuned for R4 6*s, but my point is that BGs, EoP, Gauntlet and War absolutely is.
I’m addressing the often heard critique of “we don’t even have any content in game that needs R4s”, and yet we have players pushing BGs and War where R4s are pretty much necessary to have a fighting chance of going high, and we have players using items on gauntlet and EoP, if you have more rank 4s you use less items.
Saying there’s no content for them is like saying everything you do is to the best of your ability with R3s - are you using items in EoP and Gauntlet? Then R4s would help. Are you 1st place in war and BGs? If not, then higher ranked champions help you place higher.
There’s no quest content where they’re necessary, but that doesn’t mean there’s no content for them at all.
Too much and way too quickly. I don’t deny that the game needs to keep adding and evolving if it wants to stay relevant. I also don’t think my comment implied there was no content where 7*’s might be useful.
One of your underlying points (as I understand it) is that game content does currently exist where 7*’s are desirable and perhaps even needed—AW and BGs—even if the team has given up on SQ being much more than pablum for the masses.
Which brings me back to my original point: Why not spice up those two modes in some way other than making a new rarity the current chase object needed to stay competitive? Why do BG decks have to be all 6* R5/R5 and 7*’s? Will it be more fun to clear your AW map with zero deaths if you do it with 7*’s instead of 6*’s?
I’m not opposed to the idea of relics (as long as it doesn’t become a ridiculous dress-up, like Spidey wielding Mjolnir and Cap’s shield), and I’m actually interested in how Ascension will be applied. I would even say new 7* champs might be appealing, either as actual champs or as NPCs acting as overlays to an existing team.
But not this. This feels rushed, hastily thought out and all at once. We’ve both played long enough to know how that works out in practice in MCoC.
I definitely understand the concern, but people said the exact same thing about 6*s and we're still here.
If there wasn't a progression reset, the game would go stale and it genuinely would die. This way, some will quit because of 7*s and that's their right, but the game goes on.
That whole post by @DNA3000 makes no sense. Completely missing the point that Kabam can pick and choose who gets released as a 7 star and gate content accordingly. They openly said they would have nerfed Herc and Kitty if they could have. This is them getting rid of the problem entirely. Does no one see that? Do u really think Herc, Ghost, Kitty will be released into the 7 star pool?
Or you could just create really interesting, well-tuned content for the rarities that are already in game.
Dr. Zola
Story quest moved away from that years ago now.
We have battlegrounds, gauntlet, EoP and war where you need higher ranks. That seems good enough for me personally. That’s why I want higher ranks on my champions
Fights like GM and Collector weren’t interesting? Even some of the Act 6 fights that required forethought and trade offs weren’t interesting? Surely EoP and Gauntlet and even boss rushes have sometimes been interesting. I hear players lamenting how hard the old Act 6 was before the downward adjustments. So some of that must have been more than boredom.
I suppose what disappoints me most is that this feels like an admission the creative well has run dry.
Dr. Zola
I usually agree with your posts but i honestly don't think it has anything to do with the creative well. I think it's more about the fact that for a lot of people, even adding a really good 6* won't make much difference for their roster, and many others will be at that point soon. The same thing that is upsetting people, the idea that "I finally have my roster where I want it and now you want me to start over?" is why they have to transition to the next rarity. Just chasing after that one champ you want isn't enough. New content is important for the health of the game, but so are new things to collect. When new 5*s didn't matter that much we needed 6*s and so it goes. Some people will decide they don't want to do it again and quit, but it probably is necessary.
And I think that’s one way the team can go. Not my preference, but it’s worked before.
It’s clear the team can innovate even at this stage of the game—take BGs as an example. Tactics in AW seasons are another example, regardless of whether players like them or not.
As I mentioned in my reply to @BitterSteel above, I’m more opposed to the way 7*’s get introduced than the idea of 7*’s. New 7*’s could be a breath of fresh air—but I doubt I would be any more excited about pulling a bottom tier champ as a 7* than I would about pulling another 20 sigs on an above average 6*.
People point out that the original 7* pool will be important—in reality, it’s all-important. Back when the first 5/6*’s were introduced, the specificity of counters required in game was nothing like it is today. My 5* SL or my 6* GG were far less devastating first time/new rarity pulls than they would be as 7*’s.
I definitely understand the concern, but people said the exact same thing about 6*s and we're still here.
If there wasn't a progression reset, the game would go stale and it genuinely would die. This way, some will quit because of 7*s and that's their right, but the game goes on.
That whole post by @DNA3000 makes no sense. Completely missing the point that Kabam can pick and choose who gets released as a 7 star and gate content accordingly. They openly said they would have nerfed Herc and Kitty if they could have. This is them getting rid of the problem entirely. Does no one see that? Do u really think Herc, Ghost, Kitty will be released into the 7 star pool?
They shouldn't be released into the pool so if that's the case I see that as a win. My only problem is that ascension will also increase the longevity of those said champs that flat out shouldn't exist in their current forms.
Given how bad the community is about being insufferable cry babies when it comes to balancing though, I'm not sure how else they go about rectifying mistakes of the past.
I definitely understand the concern, but people said the exact same thing about 6*s and we're still here.
If there wasn't a progression reset, the game would go stale and it genuinely would die. This way, some will quit because of 7*s and that's their right, but the game goes on.
That whole post by @DNA3000 makes no sense. Completely missing the point that Kabam can pick and choose who gets released as a 7 star and gate content accordingly. They openly said they would have nerfed Herc and Kitty if they could have. This is them getting rid of the problem entirely. Does no one see that? Do u really think Herc, Ghost, Kitty will be released into the 7 star pool?
They shouldn't be released into the pool so if that's the case I see that as a win. My only problem is that ascension will also increase the longevity of those said champs that flat out shouldn't exist in their current forms.
Given how bad the community is about being insufferable cry babies when it comes to balancing though, I'm not sure how else they go about rectifying mistakes of the past.
Balancing and rebalancing seems like an impossible task. The teams that design new champs aren’t static, and neither are game conditions. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to have designers coming and going, moving from one team to another while trying to maintain some semblance of balance in game.
Combine that with the likelihood that rebalancing rarely creates new revenue streams and it seems even more difficult.
Or you could just create really interesting, well-tuned content for the rarities that are already in game.
Dr. Zola
Story quest moved away from that years ago now.
We have battlegrounds, gauntlet, EoP and war where you need higher ranks. That seems good enough for me personally. That’s why I want higher ranks on my champions
Fights like GM and Collector weren’t interesting? Even some of the Act 6 fights that required forethought and trade offs weren’t interesting? Surely EoP and Gauntlet and even boss rushes have sometimes been interesting. I hear players lamenting how hard the old Act 6 was before the downward adjustments. So some of that must have been more than boredom.
I suppose what disappoints me most is that this feels like an admission the creative well has run dry.
Dr. Zola
I think you’re misunderstanding me.
Story quests are still interesting to the vast majority of the player base, and still has challenging fights and quests that benefit from the extra ranks. But story quest is no longer the act 6 of old where it’s so difficult that you need the highest rank of the day
That sort of content is now in BGs and War, where you need rank 4 champions to push the highest ranks. The hard content is now Eop and gauntlet where it’s going to be hard if you don’t have plenty of rank 3s and a few R4s.
Questing is now where the designers can make things a little easier on most players, and extra ranks help, but they’re not as necessary as they used to be.
So no, maybe the quest content isn’t completely tuned for R4 6*s, but my point is that BGs, EoP, Gauntlet and War absolutely is.
I’m addressing the often heard critique of “we don’t even have any content in game that needs R4s”, and yet we have players pushing BGs and War where R4s are pretty much necessary to have a fighting chance of going high, and we have players using items on gauntlet and EoP, if you have more rank 4s you use less items.
Saying there’s no content for them is like saying everything you do is to the best of your ability with R3s - are you using items in EoP and Gauntlet? Then R4s would help. Are you 1st place in war and BGs? If not, then higher ranked champions help you place higher.
There’s no quest content where they’re necessary, but that doesn’t mean there’s no content for them at all.
Too much and way too quickly. I don’t deny that the game needs to keep adding and evolving if it wants to stay relevant. I also don’t think my comment implied there was no content where 7*’s might be useful.
One of your underlying points (as I understand it) is that game content does currently exist where 7*’s are desirable and perhaps even needed—AW and BGs—even if the team has given up on SQ being much more than pablum for the masses.
Which brings me back to my original point: Why not spice up those two modes in some way other than making a new rarity the current chase object needed to stay competitive? Why do BG decks have to be all 6* R5/R5 and 7*’s? Will it be more fun to clear your AW map with zero deaths if you do it with 7*’s instead of 6*’s?
I’m not opposed to the idea of relics (as long as it doesn’t become a ridiculous dress-up, like Spidey wielding Mjolnir and Cap’s shield), and I’m actually interested in how Ascension will be applied. I would even say new 7* champs might be appealing, either as actual champs or as NPCs acting as overlays to an existing team.
But not this. This feels rushed, hastily thought out and all at once. We’ve both played long enough to know how that works out in practice in MCoC.
Dr. Zola
- "Why not spice up those two modes in some way other than making a new rarity the current chase object needed to stay competitive?" BGs is being spiced up using relics, so that's one thing. If relics end up in war then that answers that too. But war is seeing fairly constant changes with tactics. Kabam and DNA have also explained why relics can't replace 7*s as something to chase.
- "Why do BG decks have to be all 6* R5/R5 and 7*’s?" They don't.. but if you want to progress then you need the highest ranked champions possible. And the thing is, the whales by next spring will have, or be close to full decks of Rank 4 6*s. And over the following year or so they will get full decks of Rank 5 6*s. With less and less to differentiate who is better. So what's the answer?
I'm using your question on BGs to address a wider view of the contest, and any "Why do we need 6* R5s/7*s in X content". 7*s need to be added in order to keep competition moving. Otherwise it becomes stale. As for why now, or why in the next 6 months..
7*s need to be integrated earlier than when everyone has 6* Rank 5s, because if we just add them when the whales have 30-40 6* Rank 5s then 7*s would be useless for 3 years while the economy progresses to get 7* rank 4s, and that's not a good model. The better thing, is to integrate 7*s so they are concurrently worth investing in alongside 6*s for a good few years. That way, there's a better transition from 6*s to 7*s. It feels bad at the start, and we had this with 5*s being added, we had it when 6*s were added and we have it when 7*s are added. We will have it when X*s are added too.
- "Will it be more fun to clear your AW map with zero deaths if you do it with 7*’s instead of 6*’s?" I mean, not if you ask that question in a vacuum. I would have the same enjoyment of beating a fight with a 7* as a 6*. But that's not really an entirely fair question. Because the implication is that 7*s don't need to be added because you can enjoy 6*s as much. That might be true, but again, if 7*s aren't added then 6* rosters get stale and boring. And eventually everyone in your war tier would have 6* rank 5s and all of the champions, and when that happens, no - I won't enjoy beating a fight with a 6* because I wouldn't be playing anymore, and neither would many others.
-"But not this. This feels rushed, hastily thought out and all at once. We’ve both played long enough to know how that works out in practice in MCoC. " I can tell you this entirely will not have been hastily thought out, months and months ago we got a survey asking us about future progresssion whether that's 7*s, upgrading 6*s into 7*s, getting bonuses for how many rarities you have of a certain character. I can guarantee you that was not even near the beginning of the plans for something as huge as 7*s. I think by "Rushed, hastily thought out" you may just mean "I don't like this". Which is fine, you don't need to agree with a decision, but I do think that in the long run once you have built a bit of a 7* roster you'll look back and think how odd it was that you felt so strongly about the 6*s. Once you have every 6* that you want, you'll not want to target or rank them anymore and you'll feel glad that you can get the thrill of chasing 7*s now.
We do know how it works out in practice in MCOC, 5*s rolled out, 6*s rolled out, and 7*s will roll out. The game still lives now, and it will still live on after. When we meet in 4-5 years in a thread named "8*s are the death of the game" I will give you a wink that says I told you so. We've both played long enough to know that every time a big change comes out people threaten to quit, and people say the game will die. The game is still very much kicking.
If you look at the 6 stars announcement thread, the first 3 comments threatening to quit are:
1)"God I don't even want to play, the game progression makes no sense to me"
2) "I'm out, this is the final straw. Adios!"
3) "I've never complained about the game, and have spent a good deal of money on the game because I enjoyed it. But this may be a deal breaker. Extraordinarily bad timing."
Number 1 was last active a year ago (assuming they quit, that is 4 years after 6*s are added), Number 2 was active within the last week, and number 3 is still playing today, and they just made this comment about 7*s: "Thanks for the good times MCOC, it’s been enjoyable. Wish everyone the best in the future. 7 stars spell the end of the game for me."
Maybe it just took another progression reset to be the final straw, but personally, I look forward to seeing number 3's take on 8*s being added.
I definitely understand the concern, but people said the exact same thing about 6*s and we're still here.
If there wasn't a progression reset, the game would go stale and it genuinely would die. This way, some will quit because of 7*s and that's their right, but the game goes on.
That whole post by @DNA3000 makes no sense. Completely missing the point that Kabam can pick and choose who gets released as a 7 star and gate content accordingly. They openly said they would have nerfed Herc and Kitty if they could have. This is them getting rid of the problem entirely. Does no one see that? Do u really think Herc, Ghost, Kitty will be released into the 7 star pool?
They shouldn't be released into the pool so if that's the case I see that as a win. My only problem is that ascension will also increase the longevity of those said champs that flat out shouldn't exist in their current forms.
Given how bad the community is about being insufferable cry babies when it comes to balancing though, I'm not sure how else they go about rectifying mistakes of the past.
Balancing and rebalancing seems like an impossible task. The teams that design new champs aren’t static, and neither are game conditions. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to have designers coming and going, moving from one team to another while trying to maintain some semblance of balance in game.
Combine that with the likelihood that rebalancing rarely creates new revenue streams and it seems even more difficult.
Dr. Zola
It's really not an overly difficult task. The complicating factor is the player base.
Modern gamers in general are incredibly reactionary, entitled, and prone to feigned outrage. Were that not the case, making more regular updates to champions that are far too overpowered really wouldn't be that difficult.
Players love their OP toys and see nothing wrong with them as long as they make things easier for them and make them feel like they actually know what they're doing. Even if those same toys limit content design space and make most other champs in the game practically irrelevant. Their solution is always "just add more busted champs and make all the old ones busted". That just doesn't work for content design bc then you end up with either content so difficult only the truly broken champs can even get close to doing it or content so incredibly easy that there's almost no point to making it.
I definitely understand the concern, but people said the exact same thing about 6*s and we're still here.
If there wasn't a progression reset, the game would go stale and it genuinely would die. This way, some will quit because of 7*s and that's their right, but the game goes on.
That whole post by @DNA3000 makes no sense. Completely missing the point that Kabam can pick and choose who gets released as a 7 star and gate content accordingly. They openly said they would have nerfed Herc and Kitty if they could have. This is them getting rid of the problem entirely. Does no one see that? Do u really think Herc, Ghost, Kitty will be released into the 7 star pool?
They shouldn't be released into the pool so if that's the case I see that as a win. My only problem is that ascension will also increase the longevity of those said champs that flat out shouldn't exist in their current forms.
Given how bad the community is about being insufferable cry babies when it comes to balancing though, I'm not sure how else they go about rectifying mistakes of the past.
Balancing and rebalancing seems like an impossible task. The teams that design new champs aren’t static, and neither are game conditions. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to have designers coming and going, moving from one team to another while trying to maintain some semblance of balance in game.
Combine that with the likelihood that rebalancing rarely creates new revenue streams and it seems even more difficult.
Dr. Zola
It's really not an overly difficult task. The complicating factor is the player base.
Modern gamers in general are incredibly reactionary, entitled, and prone to feigned outrage. Were that not the case, making more regular updates to champions that are far too overpowered really wouldn't be that difficult.
Players love their OP toys and see nothing wrong with them as long as they make things easier for them and make them feel like they actually know what they're doing. Even if those same toys limit content design space and make most other champs in the game practically irrelevant. Their solution is always "just add more busted champs and make all the old ones busted". That just doesn't work for content design bc then you end up with either content so difficult only the truly broken champs can even get close to doing it or content so incredibly easy that there's almost no point to making it.
Yep, I suspect that I’m in the minority but if it were for the best of the game I’d completely accept a Quake, Ghost, Kitty, Herc Nerf (as long as they came with rank and sig tickets). It is simply not healthy for the game if champions are too powerful, and to be honest I’d rather leave that decision to the people who run the game, than the person with an emotional attachment to those champions with a rank 4 sig 200 Herc or Kitty or ghost.
That’s why I’m excited for the balancing program, it lets designers be more adventurous with new champions with the knowledge that it’s ok to nerf them later on. It’s an overall benefit to the game, and one we’re probably already seeing. Scorpion may not have been as powerful as he is, if kabam didn’t have the safety net of nerfing. Black cat’s bleed and sabotage may not have been so potent if kabam didn’t know that they could tone her down it needed. Rintrah’s sp2 may not have hit so hard, if kabam knew they couldn’t balance it down if they needed to.
Even if a couple champs here and there get balanced down, it’s already possible it’s a net positive because of the extra room Kabam have to develop fun and interesting champions.
I definitely understand the concern, but people said the exact same thing about 6*s and we're still here.
If there wasn't a progression reset, the game would go stale and it genuinely would die. This way, some will quit because of 7*s and that's their right, but the game goes on.
That whole post by @DNA3000 makes no sense. Completely missing the point that Kabam can pick and choose who gets released as a 7 star and gate content accordingly. They openly said they would have nerfed Herc and Kitty if they could have. This is them getting rid of the problem entirely. Does no one see that? Do u really think Herc, Ghost, Kitty will be released into the 7 star pool?
They shouldn't be released into the pool so if that's the case I see that as a win. My only problem is that ascension will also increase the longevity of those said champs that flat out shouldn't exist in their current forms.
Given how bad the community is about being insufferable cry babies when it comes to balancing though, I'm not sure how else they go about rectifying mistakes of the past.
Balancing and rebalancing seems like an impossible task. The teams that design new champs aren’t static, and neither are game conditions. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to have designers coming and going, moving from one team to another while trying to maintain some semblance of balance in game.
Combine that with the likelihood that rebalancing rarely creates new revenue streams and it seems even more difficult.
Dr. Zola
It's really not an overly difficult task. The complicating factor is the player base.
Modern gamers in general are incredibly reactionary, entitled, and prone to feigned outrage. Were that not the case, making more regular updates to champions that are far too overpowered really wouldn't be that difficult.
Players love their OP toys and see nothing wrong with them as long as they make things easier for them and make them feel like they actually know what they're doing. Even if those same toys limit content design space and make most other champs in the game practically irrelevant. Their solution is always "just add more busted champs and make all the old ones busted". That just doesn't work for content design bc then you end up with either content so difficult only the truly broken champs can even get close to doing it or content so incredibly easy that there's almost no point to making it.
True. Frequent retooling would help. The way this game works, the timeline between release and “repair” is long enough to induce reliance. Maybe that’s a cost of the complexity that makes the game fun, but I think you’d have much more acceptance if new champs were tuned shortly after release and old champs were made relevant on a more regular schedule.
@DrZola interesting point on people saying they'll quit because of X*s being added. So my view is that people saying this tends to be an emotional "this is change and I don't like it" reaction, and that's why we see lots and lots of people saying they're going to quit because of 7*s, and that's why they think 7*s mean the end of the game - after all, if they quit, then others will too right? The game must end because of that.
But, what ends up happening is that they take a breath and realise that a new star level is not the end of the game, or the world, and it ends up being a really good thing for the game and their enjoyment of it. They don't need to quit because they're still enjoying the game - they just got it wrong with their initial reaction/threat.
In a poll asking whether people will quit if 7*s are added, OP himself voted that he would quit if they're added. Today, I asked him whether he was quitting like he said, and it turns out no, he won't be quitting. There are 47 other votes there at the moment, and I just wonder how many of those members will actually end up quitting now the news is here.
I mean this in no way as a gotcha, or to take away from any of your posts, but you actually voted that you would quit as well Zola, and I was just curious, because I know you're a reasonable member - what is your thought process here? You believed you would quit when asked if 7*s are coming, now they are coming, are you still going to quit? If not, why not, and why do you think you believed it back then?
I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that 7*s feel like the end of the world when you're asked/when it's announced but it turns out when they're actually here, they don't seem so bad. Also, it's very easy to say you'll quit the game in the face of an undetermined future date, but a little harder when that date is announced.
As for when it's actually announced, and people are still saying they're going to quit when 7*s are added, I can't help but feel that they're just going along a similar thought process, but giving themselves time to change their mind because they know it's not all doom and gloom. They just see 7*s as bad, and care so much about their 6* roster, when 4 years ago, they would have sworn that 6*s were bad and they care about their 5* roster, and 2 years before that, that 5*s are bad and they care about their 4* roster. In 3 years time, they will care about their 7* roster and swear blind that 8*s are bad.
7*s feel so bad at the start to some, because they love their 6* roster and worry it will be useless the second 7*s are added (like this poster, who says they'll quit because of 7*s being added "My 6* roster was finally something to feel good about and in 5 months it'll be useless."). But 7*s are going to be integrated at the speed that we will have useful 6*s until 3 years from now, and because of that, 7*s do not feel as bad in practice as these quick rush to judgements from people who say they'll quit. That is to say, as soon as people see 7*s in action and start to get excited about them and pulling them, all horror at them being added will go.
This was a little rambly, but overall I guess I'm just really interested in the reasons people swear they're going to quit if 7*s are added, but then when it comes to it, they don't end up quitting. Because I think that's the reason behind people thinking the game will die or 7*s are bad.
They see 50 people on the forum saying they're going to quit, and the game will die. 40 people isn't a good representation of the forum, let alone the game and it gaslights them into thinking the game is in trouble, or 7*s will make people quit. But of those 50, only 5 will actually quit because of 7*s, and the rest will still be here. The rest of the game will carry on, players will quit or not quit, but the loud 50 provide a vocal minority and make people think the game will die.
@DrZola interesting point on people saying they'll quit because of X*s being added. So my view is that people saying this tends to be an emotional "this is change and I don't like it" reaction, and that's why we see lots and lots of people saying they're going to quit because of 7*s, and that's why they think 7*s mean the end of the game - after all, if they quit, then others will too right? The game must end because of that.
But, what ends up happening is that they take a breath and realise that a new star level is not the end of the game, or the world, and it ends up being a really good thing for the game and their enjoyment of it. They don't need to quit because they're still enjoying the game - they just got it wrong with their initial reaction/threat.
In a poll asking whether people will quit if 7*s are added, OP himself voted that he would quit if they're added. Today, I asked him whether he was quitting like he said, and it turns out no, he won't be quitting. There are 47 other votes there at the moment, and I just wonder how many of those members will actually end up quitting now the news is here.
I mean this in no way as a gotcha, or to take away from any of your posts, but you actually voted that you would quit as well Zola, and I was just curious, because I know you're a reasonable member - what is your thought process here? You believed you would quit when asked if 7*s are coming, now they are coming, are you still going to quit? If not, why not, and why do you think you believed it back then?
I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that 7*s feel like the end of the world when you're asked/when it's announced but it turns out when they're actually here, they don't seem so bad. Also, it's very easy to say you'll quit the game in the face of an undetermined future date, but a little harder when that date is announced.
As for when it's actually announced, and people are still saying they're going to quit when 7*s are added, I can't help but feel that they're just going along a similar thought process, but giving themselves time to change their mind because they know it's not all doom and gloom. They just see 7*s as bad, and care so much about their 6* roster, when 4 years ago, they would have sworn that 6*s were bad and they care about their 5* roster, and 2 years before that, that 5*s are bad and they care about their 4* roster. In 3 years time, they will care about their 7* roster and swear blind that 8*s are bad.
7*s feel so bad at the start to some, because they love their 6* roster and worry it will be useless the second 7*s are added (like this poster, who says they'll quit because of 7*s being added "My 6* roster was finally something to feel good about and in 5 months it'll be useless."). But 7*s are going to be integrated at the speed that we will have useful 6*s until 3 years from now, and because of that, 7*s do not feel as bad in practice as these quick rush to judgements from people who say they'll quit. That is to say, as soon as people see 7*s in action and start to get excited about them and pulling them, all horror at them being added will go.
This was a little rambly, but overall I guess I'm just really interested in the reasons people swear they're going to quit if 7*s are added, but then when it comes to it, they don't end up quitting. Because I think that's the reason behind people thinking the game will die or 7*s are bad.
They see 50 people on the forum saying they're going to quit, and the game will die. 40 people isn't a good representation of the forum, let alone the game and it gaslights them into thinking the game is in trouble, or 7*s will make people quit. But of those 50, only 5 will actually quit because of 7*s, and the rest will still be here. The rest of the game will carry on, players will quit or not quit, but the loud 50 provide a vocal minority and make people think the game will die.
Yeah—no time for a full response right now, but I will say the public pronouncements of “I’m quitting” have always struck me as a bit overwrought. Literally no one cares, and most everyone who says that never does. No offense taken digging up that poll—it’s pretty lacking in nuance, but it is what it is.
I’ve always felt like a scenario with the same 7*’s introduced as yet another chase item would probably signal the end for my time in MCoC. Given the timing, there are also external reasons but they are ancillary. I’m disappointed in what I’ve heard this far, and I feel like there are other avenues to explore to keep the game fresh, but my criticisms aren’t of the “I’m quitting” variety.
Think of it this way: less of an “I just don’t like it” and more of an “I hope it’s not as bad as I think it will be and I wish we had tried innovating around other areas of the game” position.
More later when I have time.
Dr. Zola
Edit: Had a quick second so I thought to add that you can oppose something in principle, but be happy with its implementation and vice versa. That’s how I would look at it. Later.
@DrZola interesting point on people saying they'll quit because of X*s being added. So my view is that people saying this tends to be an emotional "this is change and I don't like it" reaction, and that's why we see lots and lots of people saying they're going to quit because of 7*s, and that's why they think 7*s mean the end of the game - after all, if they quit, then others will too right? The game must end because of that.
But, what ends up happening is that they take a breath and realise that a new star level is not the end of the game, or the world, and it ends up being a really good thing for the game and their enjoyment of it. They don't need to quit because they're still enjoying the game - they just got it wrong with their initial reaction/threat.
In a poll asking whether people will quit if 7*s are added, OP himself voted that he would quit if they're added. Today, I asked him whether he was quitting like he said, and it turns out no, he won't be quitting. There are 47 other votes there at the moment, and I just wonder how many of those members will actually end up quitting now the news is here.
I mean this in no way as a gotcha, or to take away from any of your posts, but you actually voted that you would quit as well Zola, and I was just curious, because I know you're a reasonable member - what is your thought process here? You believed you would quit when asked if 7*s are coming, now they are coming, are you still going to quit? If not, why not, and why do you think you believed it back then?
I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that 7*s feel like the end of the world when you're asked/when it's announced but it turns out when they're actually here, they don't seem so bad. Also, it's very easy to say you'll quit the game in the face of an undetermined future date, but a little harder when that date is announced.
As for when it's actually announced, and people are still saying they're going to quit when 7*s are added, I can't help but feel that they're just going along a similar thought process, but giving themselves time to change their mind because they know it's not all doom and gloom. They just see 7*s as bad, and care so much about their 6* roster, when 4 years ago, they would have sworn that 6*s were bad and they care about their 5* roster, and 2 years before that, that 5*s are bad and they care about their 4* roster. In 3 years time, they will care about their 7* roster and swear blind that 8*s are bad.
7*s feel so bad at the start to some, because they love their 6* roster and worry it will be useless the second 7*s are added (like this poster, who says they'll quit because of 7*s being added "My 6* roster was finally something to feel good about and in 5 months it'll be useless."). But 7*s are going to be integrated at the speed that we will have useful 6*s until 3 years from now, and because of that, 7*s do not feel as bad in practice as these quick rush to judgements from people who say they'll quit. That is to say, as soon as people see 7*s in action and start to get excited about them and pulling them, all horror at them being added will go.
This was a little rambly, but overall I guess I'm just really interested in the reasons people swear they're going to quit if 7*s are added, but then when it comes to it, they don't end up quitting. Because I think that's the reason behind people thinking the game will die or 7*s are bad.
They see 50 people on the forum saying they're going to quit, and the game will die. 40 people isn't a good representation of the forum, let alone the game and it gaslights them into thinking the game is in trouble, or 7*s will make people quit. But of those 50, only 5 will actually quit because of 7*s, and the rest will still be here. The rest of the game will carry on, players will quit or not quit, but the loud 50 provide a vocal minority and make people think the game will die.
Yeah—no time for a full response right now, but I will say the public pronouncements of “I’m quitting” have always struck me as a bit overwrought. Literally no one cares, and most everyone who says that never does. No offense taken digging up that poll—it’s pretty lacking in nuance, but it is what it is.
I’ve always felt like a scenario with the same 7*’s introduced as yet another chase item would probably signal the end for my time in MCoC. Given the timing, there are also external reasons but they are ancillary. I’m disappointed in what I’ve heard this far, and I feel like there are other avenues to explore to keep the game fresh, but my criticisms aren’t of the “I’m quitting” variety.
Think of it this way: less of an “I just don’t like it” and more of an “I hope it’s not as bad as I think it will be and I wish we had tried innovating around other areas of the game” position.
More later when I have time.
Dr. Zola
Edit: Had a quick second so I thought to add that you can oppose something in principle, but be happy with its implementation and vice versa. That’s how I would look at it. Later.
For me, I think I had hope with 6*'s that it would work out. I did grow to accept it, but it never really made the game better in a meaningful way and mostly just played because I didn't want to think all that time was just going to end. So, like you said, many of us, despite not wanting it and threatening to leave then, stuck it out anyway. In my case it was really FOMO.
This is different for me this time though. I know for certain, now, 7*'s aren't going to make the game more interesting for me and I have lost the hope I clung into when 6* came out. Because of that, I'm not even going to entertain it or try to force myself to let it grow on me. When 7* drop, I'm removing the game. Many will stay and new players will always try it out, but I think many old timers will finally go, or greatly reduce their time playing.
@DrZola interesting point on people saying they'll quit because of X*s being added. So my view is that people saying this tends to be an emotional "this is change and I don't like it" reaction, and that's why we see lots and lots of people saying they're going to quit because of 7*s, and that's why they think 7*s mean the end of the game - after all, if they quit, then others will too right? The game must end because of that.
But, what ends up happening is that they take a breath and realise that a new star level is not the end of the game, or the world, and it ends up being a really good thing for the game and their enjoyment of it. They don't need to quit because they're still enjoying the game - they just got it wrong with their initial reaction/threat.
In a poll asking whether people will quit if 7*s are added, OP himself voted that he would quit if they're added. Today, I asked him whether he was quitting like he said, and it turns out no, he won't be quitting. There are 47 other votes there at the moment, and I just wonder how many of those members will actually end up quitting now the news is here.
I mean this in no way as a gotcha, or to take away from any of your posts, but you actually voted that you would quit as well Zola, and I was just curious, because I know you're a reasonable member - what is your thought process here? You believed you would quit when asked if 7*s are coming, now they are coming, are you still going to quit? If not, why not, and why do you think you believed it back then?
I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that 7*s feel like the end of the world when you're asked/when it's announced but it turns out when they're actually here, they don't seem so bad. Also, it's very easy to say you'll quit the game in the face of an undetermined future date, but a little harder when that date is announced.
As for when it's actually announced, and people are still saying they're going to quit when 7*s are added, I can't help but feel that they're just going along a similar thought process, but giving themselves time to change their mind because they know it's not all doom and gloom. They just see 7*s as bad, and care so much about their 6* roster, when 4 years ago, they would have sworn that 6*s were bad and they care about their 5* roster, and 2 years before that, that 5*s are bad and they care about their 4* roster. In 3 years time, they will care about their 7* roster and swear blind that 8*s are bad.
7*s feel so bad at the start to some, because they love their 6* roster and worry it will be useless the second 7*s are added (like this poster, who says they'll quit because of 7*s being added "My 6* roster was finally something to feel good about and in 5 months it'll be useless."). But 7*s are going to be integrated at the speed that we will have useful 6*s until 3 years from now, and because of that, 7*s do not feel as bad in practice as these quick rush to judgements from people who say they'll quit. That is to say, as soon as people see 7*s in action and start to get excited about them and pulling them, all horror at them being added will go.
This was a little rambly, but overall I guess I'm just really interested in the reasons people swear they're going to quit if 7*s are added, but then when it comes to it, they don't end up quitting. Because I think that's the reason behind people thinking the game will die or 7*s are bad.
They see 50 people on the forum saying they're going to quit, and the game will die. 40 people isn't a good representation of the forum, let alone the game and it gaslights them into thinking the game is in trouble, or 7*s will make people quit. But of those 50, only 5 will actually quit because of 7*s, and the rest will still be here. The rest of the game will carry on, players will quit or not quit, but the loud 50 provide a vocal minority and make people think the game will die.
No offense taken digging up that poll—it’s pretty lacking in nuance, but it is what it is.
That’s fair, and why I wanted to ask a bunch of questions about why you voted that you’d quit. Because I’m interested in the nuance of it, rather than people just saying they’re gonna quit. I’d be willing to bet a fair bit that most (not all) people saying they’re going to quit will still be here and say the same thing about 8*s.
I guess your point about opposing things in principle but seeing how they work in practice is along the lines of what I’m saying in the post above about people seeing what it’s really like when 7*s get here.
Because the 6* introduction was a little bumpy (as Kabam admit) and people are still here, it’s only going to be better when ascension and relics can make our 6* champs last longer.
Honestly I’m excited about it. Pulling new champs is the best part of the game for me, and my 6* roster is only missing a handful of champs so it doesn’t happen often. Getting the new highest rarity of a champ like Doom is gonna feel so good all over again.
Yep, I’m pretty much the same. I now only have 5 new champions in the basic that I would genuinely be happy pulling. Kitty, Toad, Odin, Man Thing and Mojo. There are some others I’d be happy duping too though.
I’m looking forward to going for new 7* champs and building up my roster. I had hoped to have a little more time focussing on 6*s exclusively, and it feels a little early. But I’m right there with you on this one.
Honestly I’m excited about it. Pulling new champs is the best part of the game for me, and my 6* roster is only missing a handful of champs so it doesn’t happen often. Getting the new highest rarity of a champ like Doom is gonna feel so good all over again.
You both are in the minority then
Probably the minority in terms of the total player base, but the truly casual who don’t know the forums exist and just play when they’re bored won’t bat an eyelid - it’s so far out of their current horizons that it’s irrelevant. I should think half of the players who log in once or twice a week on the bus only have a couple of 6* so why would they care?
The only people that you could argue that it’s negatively effecting are low spenders who are pushing for top positions like me, and frankly I like the idea of new champions. I’m only chasing a couple new champions and dupes right now.
It’s not like your roster is deleted. My 5* still get used periodically and that’s 3+ years since 6* were released. It will be the same for 6* in 3 years time.
@Worknprogress@BitterSteel You really think the game would be more fun without Kitty, Herc and Ghost? When it comes to re-balancing are you guys forgetting these characters are in the majority of cases, bought and paid for at a great expense? Whether it be the champ, the awakening of it, the rank ups or the sig investment? Changing of a complete product should never even be a thing. Period.
Lets not forget they did a bait and switch with Herc after leaving him able to tank sp3s in the Cav EQ for a full month and changed him while praying we didn't notice. And for what? To cost players a few extra revivies here and there? And so what if a champ is OP. Let players have that. After selling us these champs and the associated costs, have we not earned the right to trample over content? Whats the difference at their end anyway? They still got rich selling us the champs...so they want to change them to get them back a few extra items in the content too? If they just made great champs, sold them and left everything alone they would make more anyway as players would be able to commit from the day of release.
@Worknprogress@BitterSteel You really think the game would be more fun without Kitty, Herc and Ghost? When it comes to re-balancing are you guys forgetting these characters are in the majority of cases, bought and paid for at a great expense? Whether it be the champ, the awakening of it, the rank ups or the sig investment? Changing of a complete product should never even be a thing. Period.
Lets not forget they did a bait and switch with Herc after leaving him able to tank sp3s in the Cav EQ for a full month and changed him while praying we didn't notice. And for what? To cost players a few extra revivies here and there? And so what if a champ is OP. Let players have that. After selling us these champs and the associated costs, have we not earned the right to trample over content? Whats the difference at their end anyway? They still got rich selling us the champs...so they want to change them to get them back a few extra items in the content too? If they just made great champs, sold them and left everything alone they would make more anyway as players would be able to commit from the day of release.
If you'd like to compare lifetime spend on mcoc while there are certainly people that have spent a lot more than myself. That number is not very high though. I'm quite aware at the cost of obtaining new champs early.
If you're spending money on this game without already understanding that you own absolutely nothing and that any of it can be changed/removed at any time, then you're not particularly bright. I've never accused most of this playerbase of being all that sharp though.
In answer to what was asked though, yes I do think an actually balanced game is more fun, especially when parts of that game are competitive. I don't think there's anything skilled or smart about a war battlegroup clearing a map with 10 Hercs running suicides and max boosts. I don't find that fun or interesting either.
I’m still on the annoyance-train of not letting 4 stars into Act 6. I still just can’t understand it. Everybody has their own opinions on it. Few of my friends decided to stop playing because of it. These new 7 stars kinda fit this same annoyance.
Comments
Secondly, a number of people are threatening to quit over it, but my recollection says not nearly as much as did when 6* champs were introduced. And after 6* champs were introduced, the level of that mass exodus from the game was so tiny it was impossible to notice in the game's numbers or participation statistics. Yes, I did in fact look at them at the time.
The majority of players don't actively complain or actively promote. The majority of players simply accept the game is a game, the game changes over time, and play the game accordingly. If there was some large majority of players to hated 7* champs, I see no evidence of it at the moment, based on my experience monitoring things like the forums, the Reddit, and other areas of discussion. That people are complaining is not significant. How many are complaining compared to past issues is significant. At the moment, it isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things.
What constitutes better content to you? Keep in mind that we've had act 6 nerfed twice now. Story content is no longer endgame content and variants haven't been good in a long time.
People will always spend on the game. 7*'s won't change that. Relics won't change that and neither will ascensions.
Game can't die as long as money inflow continues
And with new progressions that inflow will increase (which is the reason we're getting all of this even though it's totally unnecessary at present)
Most Whales will probably continue
Many F2Ps will also continue
And these changes won't feel as drastic to newer players as it does to us so they'll also keep coming
I assume at max 10-15% players will leave the game most of which will be F2Ps
So no the game won't die, but yeah many will leave or get a bit relaxed instead of being competitive
New title...? I don't care.
7*...? Sure.
Ascension...? Why not?
Relics...? Bring it on.
I have learned to play and ENJOY the game at my own pace. Kabam can offer what they offer. I take and I pay for what I enjoy.
One of your underlying points (as I understand it) is that game content does currently exist where 7*’s are desirable and perhaps even needed—AW and BGs—even if the team has given up on SQ being much more than pablum for the masses.
Which brings me back to my original point: Why not spice up those two modes in some way other than making a new rarity the current chase object needed to stay competitive? Why do BG decks have to be all 6* R5/R5 and 7*’s? Will it be more fun to clear your AW map with zero deaths if you do it with 7*’s instead of 6*’s?
I’m not opposed to the idea of relics (as long as it doesn’t become a ridiculous dress-up, like Spidey wielding Mjolnir and Cap’s shield), and I’m actually interested in how Ascension will be applied. I would even say new 7* champs might be appealing, either as actual champs or as NPCs acting as overlays to an existing team.
But not this. This feels rushed, hastily thought out and all at once. We’ve both played long enough to know how that works out in practice in MCoC.
Dr. Zola
It’s clear the team can innovate even at this stage of the game—take BGs as an example. Tactics in AW seasons are another example, regardless of whether players like them or not.
As I mentioned in my reply to @BitterSteel above, I’m more opposed to the way 7*’s get introduced than the idea of 7*’s. New 7*’s could be a breath of fresh air—but I doubt I would be any more excited about pulling a bottom tier champ as a 7* than I would about pulling another 20 sigs on an above average 6*.
People point out that the original 7* pool will be important—in reality, it’s all-important. Back when the first 5/6*’s were introduced, the specificity of counters required in game was nothing like it is today. My 5* SL or my 6* GG were far less devastating first time/new rarity pulls than they would be as 7*’s.
Dr. Zola
Given how bad the community is about being insufferable cry babies when it comes to balancing though, I'm not sure how else they go about rectifying mistakes of the past.
Combine that with the likelihood that rebalancing rarely creates new revenue streams and it seems even more difficult.
Dr. Zola
- "Why not spice up those two modes in some way other than making a new rarity the current chase object needed to stay competitive?"
BGs is being spiced up using relics, so that's one thing. If relics end up in war then that answers that too. But war is seeing fairly constant changes with tactics. Kabam and DNA have also explained why relics can't replace 7*s as something to chase.
- "Why do BG decks have to be all 6* R5/R5 and 7*’s?"
They don't.. but if you want to progress then you need the highest ranked champions possible. And the thing is, the whales by next spring will have, or be close to full decks of Rank 4 6*s. And over the following year or so they will get full decks of Rank 5 6*s. With less and less to differentiate who is better. So what's the answer?
I'm using your question on BGs to address a wider view of the contest, and any "Why do we need 6* R5s/7*s in X content". 7*s need to be added in order to keep competition moving. Otherwise it becomes stale. As for why now, or why in the next 6 months..
7*s need to be integrated earlier than when everyone has 6* Rank 5s, because if we just add them when the whales have 30-40 6* Rank 5s then 7*s would be useless for 3 years while the economy progresses to get 7* rank 4s, and that's not a good model. The better thing, is to integrate 7*s so they are concurrently worth investing in alongside 6*s for a good few years. That way, there's a better transition from 6*s to 7*s. It feels bad at the start, and we had this with 5*s being added, we had it when 6*s were added and we have it when 7*s are added. We will have it when X*s are added too.
- "Will it be more fun to clear your AW map with zero deaths if you do it with 7*’s instead of 6*’s?"
I mean, not if you ask that question in a vacuum. I would have the same enjoyment of beating a fight with a 7* as a 6*. But that's not really an entirely fair question. Because the implication is that 7*s don't need to be added because you can enjoy 6*s as much. That might be true, but again, if 7*s aren't added then 6* rosters get stale and boring. And eventually everyone in your war tier would have 6* rank 5s and all of the champions, and when that happens, no - I won't enjoy beating a fight with a 6* because I wouldn't be playing anymore, and neither would many others.
-"But not this. This feels rushed, hastily thought out and all at once. We’ve both played long enough to know how that works out in practice in MCoC. "
I can tell you this entirely will not have been hastily thought out, months and months ago we got a survey asking us about future progresssion whether that's 7*s, upgrading 6*s into 7*s, getting bonuses for how many rarities you have of a certain character. I can guarantee you that was not even near the beginning of the plans for something as huge as 7*s. I think by "Rushed, hastily thought out" you may just mean "I don't like this". Which is fine, you don't need to agree with a decision, but I do think that in the long run once you have built a bit of a 7* roster you'll look back and think how odd it was that you felt so strongly about the 6*s. Once you have every 6* that you want, you'll not want to target or rank them anymore and you'll feel glad that you can get the thrill of chasing 7*s now.
We do know how it works out in practice in MCOC, 5*s rolled out, 6*s rolled out, and 7*s will roll out. The game still lives now, and it will still live on after. When we meet in 4-5 years in a thread named "8*s are the death of the game" I will give you a wink that says I told you so. We've both played long enough to know that every time a big change comes out people threaten to quit, and people say the game will die. The game is still very much kicking.
If you look at the 6 stars announcement thread, the first 3 comments threatening to quit are:
1)"God I don't even want to play, the game progression makes no sense to me"
2) "I'm out, this is the final straw. Adios!"
3) "I've never complained about the game, and have spent a good deal of money on the game because I enjoyed it. But this may be a deal breaker. Extraordinarily bad timing."
Number 1 was last active a year ago (assuming they quit, that is 4 years after 6*s are added), Number 2 was active within the last week, and number 3 is still playing today, and they just made this comment about 7*s: "Thanks for the good times MCOC, it’s been enjoyable. Wish everyone the best in the future. 7 stars spell the end of the game for me."
Maybe it just took another progression reset to be the final straw, but personally, I look forward to seeing number 3's take on 8*s being added.
Modern gamers in general are incredibly reactionary, entitled, and prone to feigned outrage. Were that not the case, making more regular updates to champions that are far too overpowered really wouldn't be that difficult.
Players love their OP toys and see nothing wrong with them as long as they make things easier for them and make them feel like they actually know what they're doing. Even if those same toys limit content design space and make most other champs in the game practically irrelevant. Their solution is always "just add more busted champs and make all the old ones busted". That just doesn't work for content design bc then you end up with either content so difficult only the truly broken champs can even get close to doing it or content so incredibly easy that there's almost no point to making it.
That’s why I’m excited for the balancing program, it lets designers be more adventurous with new champions with the knowledge that it’s ok to nerf them later on. It’s an overall benefit to the game, and one we’re probably already seeing. Scorpion may not have been as powerful as he is, if kabam didn’t have the safety net of nerfing. Black cat’s bleed and sabotage may not have been so potent if kabam didn’t know that they could tone her down it needed. Rintrah’s sp2 may not have hit so hard, if kabam knew they couldn’t balance it down if they needed to.
Even if a couple champs here and there get balanced down, it’s already possible it’s a net positive because of the extra room Kabam have to develop fun and interesting champions.
Dr. Zola
But, what ends up happening is that they take a breath and realise that a new star level is not the end of the game, or the world, and it ends up being a really good thing for the game and their enjoyment of it. They don't need to quit because they're still enjoying the game - they just got it wrong with their initial reaction/threat.
A good example of this is in this thread from july which has just resurfaced,
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/308826/with-the-imminent-introduction-of-7-will-you-keep-playing/p1
In a poll asking whether people will quit if 7*s are added, OP himself voted that he would quit if they're added. Today, I asked him whether he was quitting like he said, and it turns out no, he won't be quitting. There are 47 other votes there at the moment, and I just wonder how many of those members will actually end up quitting now the news is here.
I mean this in no way as a gotcha, or to take away from any of your posts, but you actually voted that you would quit as well Zola, and I was just curious, because I know you're a reasonable member - what is your thought process here? You believed you would quit when asked if 7*s are coming, now they are coming, are you still going to quit? If not, why not, and why do you think you believed it back then?
I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that 7*s feel like the end of the world when you're asked/when it's announced but it turns out when they're actually here, they don't seem so bad. Also, it's very easy to say you'll quit the game in the face of an undetermined future date, but a little harder when that date is announced.
As for when it's actually announced, and people are still saying they're going to quit when 7*s are added, I can't help but feel that they're just going along a similar thought process, but giving themselves time to change their mind because they know it's not all doom and gloom. They just see 7*s as bad, and care so much about their 6* roster, when 4 years ago, they would have sworn that 6*s were bad and they care about their 5* roster, and 2 years before that, that 5*s are bad and they care about their 4* roster. In 3 years time, they will care about their 7* roster and swear blind that 8*s are bad.
7*s feel so bad at the start to some, because they love their 6* roster and worry it will be useless the second 7*s are added (like this poster, who says they'll quit because of 7*s being added "My 6* roster was finally something to feel good about and in 5 months it'll be useless."). But 7*s are going to be integrated at the speed that we will have useful 6*s until 3 years from now, and because of that, 7*s do not feel as bad in practice as these quick rush to judgements from people who say they'll quit. That is to say, as soon as people see 7*s in action and start to get excited about them and pulling them, all horror at them being added will go.
This was a little rambly, but overall I guess I'm just really interested in the reasons people swear they're going to quit if 7*s are added, but then when it comes to it, they don't end up quitting. Because I think that's the reason behind people thinking the game will die or 7*s are bad.
They see 50 people on the forum saying they're going to quit, and the game will die. 40 people isn't a good representation of the forum, let alone the game and it gaslights them into thinking the game is in trouble, or 7*s will make people quit. But of those 50, only 5 will actually quit because of 7*s, and the rest will still be here. The rest of the game will carry on, players will quit or not quit, but the loud 50 provide a vocal minority and make people think the game will die.
I’ve always felt like a scenario with the same 7*’s introduced as yet another chase item would probably signal the end for my time in MCoC. Given the timing, there are also external reasons but they are ancillary. I’m disappointed in what I’ve heard this far, and I feel like there are other avenues to explore to keep the game fresh, but my criticisms aren’t of the “I’m quitting” variety.
Think of it this way: less of an “I just don’t like it” and more of an “I hope it’s not as bad as I think it will be and I wish we had tried innovating around other areas of the game” position.
More later when I have time.
Dr. Zola
Edit: Had a quick second so I thought to add that you can oppose something in principle, but be happy with its implementation and vice versa. That’s how I would look at it. Later.
This is different for me this time though. I know for certain, now, 7*'s aren't going to make the game more interesting for me and I have lost the hope I clung into when 6* came out. Because of that, I'm not even going to entertain it or try to force myself to let it grow on me. When 7* drop, I'm removing the game. Many will stay and new players will always try it out, but I think many old timers will finally go, or greatly reduce their time playing.
I guess your point about opposing things in principle but seeing how they work in practice is along the lines of what I’m saying in the post above about people seeing what it’s really like when 7*s get here.
Because the 6* introduction was a little bumpy (as Kabam admit) and people are still here, it’s only going to be better when ascension and relics can make our 6* champs last longer.
The only people that you could argue that it’s negatively effecting are low spenders who are pushing for top positions like me, and frankly I like the idea of new champions. I’m only chasing a couple new champions and dupes right now.
It’s not like your roster is deleted. My 5* still get used periodically and that’s 3+ years since 6* were released. It will be the same for 6* in 3 years time.
You really think the game would be more fun without Kitty, Herc and Ghost?
When it comes to re-balancing are you guys forgetting these characters are in the majority of cases, bought and paid for at a great expense? Whether it be the champ, the awakening of it, the rank ups or the sig investment? Changing of a complete product should never even be a thing. Period.
Lets not forget they did a bait and switch with Herc after leaving him able to tank sp3s in the Cav EQ for a full month and changed him while praying we didn't notice. And for what? To cost players a few extra revivies here and there? And so what if a champ is OP. Let players have that. After selling us these champs and the associated costs, have we not earned the right to trample over content? Whats the difference at their end anyway? They still got rich selling us the champs...so they want to change them to get them back a few extra items in the content too?
If they just made great champs, sold them and left everything alone they would make more anyway as players would be able to commit from the day of release.
If you're spending money on this game without already understanding that you own absolutely nothing and that any of it can be changed/removed at any time, then you're not particularly bright. I've never accused most of this playerbase of being all that sharp though.
In answer to what was asked though, yes I do think an actually balanced game is more fun, especially when parts of that game are competitive. I don't think there's anything skilled or smart about a war battlegroup clearing a map with 10 Hercs running suicides and max boosts. I don't find that fun or interesting either.