I don't think that's a fair criticism, because none of this "tramples on the meanings of words." The problem seems to be that you are overgeneralizing without foundation. There is no rule that says the champion's ability accuracy defines the chance for them to do everything. How is it that X-23 has a 15% chance to gain regeneration buffs but an 80% chance to trigger bleeds on crits? How can those two chances be different? It is X-23 trying to do both things, shouldn't the chance be the same for X-23 to do both? That's what you're saying when you say that Longshot's ability accuracy should be the chance for him to do everything.
Not what I'm saying at all. Kabam is the one that says his base ability accuracy is 300%, I'm just reading what they wrote. They also said that Longshot's ability accuracy can only be reduced by debuffs. In your example X-23 base ability accuracy is assumed to be 100% so she has 15% and 85% chances for separate things, if her ability accuracy is reduced 50% by an effect, she would have 7.5% and 42.5% chance for those abilities. I never said that his ability accuracy was fixed at 300% for everything. That would be broken and ridiculously abused, if that was the case. If Longshot was under an effect through a synergy or something that adds a 40% chance to proc a bleed debuff on light attacks, it would follow that for him there would be a 120% chance to proc a bleed on lights. Unless otherwise indicated by some other effect, I would wonder what was up if he didn't proc a bleed on every light against someone that was susceptible to bleed. If it was against Colossus, none of his aa numbers matter because he's got immunity to that effect with no caveats (yet).
There are no other ability accuracies according to your portrayal of them, because when Longshot's description says *his* ability accuracy is immune to AAR except from debuffs, that means all ability accuracy for all the things he does. Except that's not the case. Different abilities have different separate ability accuracies, separate from the champion's ability accuracy itself. And there is no reason to assume that if one of those is immune to something, all of them are.
Some effects and actions would be absolutely broken if their accuracy could be modified, like when Black Widow was breaking blocks. Some nodes would be impossible to overcome if they weren't exempted from the standard ability accuracy mechanics and some allow for champs to overcome them via the standard ability accuracy mechanics. I see no indication that Domino has a double secret effect that works differently than other effects, but if Kabam says, "Nope, Domino overcomes that, and you still have to find these things out via experimentation", then that's what it is. I'd probably be slightly annoyed, but it's their game, I just play it.
If there is one thing the developers might have (and probably should have) done, it was to name these things different things. "Ability accuracy" is itself the kind of pseudo-meta descriptive naming convention game developers invent when they want to get creative with mechanical systems, when they should be aiming for clarity. But that ship has sailed off over the horizon, never to return. It is odd, but it is not semantically incorrect.
I agree with this. I highly doubt Kabam will be willing to put much effort into clarity at this point. It would likely expose more bugs and mechanics that don't match their clarification and wouldn't be worth it. More likely they'll leave it unless something is so broken they need to intervene. Even in that scenario, I doubt they would explain as much as everyone would like.
You are the one claiming that if Longshot's ability accuracy can only be modified by Debuffs, that means he must be immune to all passive ability accuracy reduction effects in the game.
Calm down, bud. Again, I never said any such thing. I never said he should be immune to Unlucky, I do think he should unaffected by the ability accuracy effects of the Unlucky passive. It has other effects that it makes perfect sense for him to be susceptible to. There's nothing in his kit that implies immunity to Unlucky.
Fine. What you said was:
What's the difference between immune to bleed, immune to poison, immune to buffs, and immune to passive ability accuracy reduction? The others are inviolable throughout the game and one means squat, apparently.
First of all, when you say "one means squat" which one do you mean. I wouldn't want to be accused of putting words in your mouth. Are you accusing immunity to bleed as meaning squat?
Just to save time, I'm going to hypothesize that the one you meant was "immune to passive ability accuracy reduction." This may be false, but in this hypothetical, what examples do you have of a champ explicitly being stated to be immune to passive ability accuracy reduction actually being affected by passive ability accuracy reduction.
So what is the explanation for Old Man Logan to still dex while Unlucky? How is it that OML's "cannot be increased or decreased" is unaffected by the Unlucky passive while Longshot's "can only be reduced through the effects of debuffs" is fair game?
As I previously stated, OML is immune to passive ability accuracy reductions. Longshot is not. Didn't you literally just say in the post above that you never said Longshot was, or should be, immune to ability accuracy reduction effects? Now you're saying he should be?
Longshot's ability accuracy is not being affected by Unlucky. Show me evidence that it actually is being affected. Showing him miss an evade is not evidence, because Longshot's ability accuracy can still be exactly 300% and he can still miss an evade, because as previously explained his base ability accuracy does not alone dictate his chance to evade.
I agree with this. I highly doubt Kabam will be willing to put much effort into clarity at this point. It would likely expose more bugs and mechanics that don't match their clarification and wouldn't be worth it. More likely they'll leave it unless something is so broken they need to intervene. Even in that scenario, I doubt they would explain as much as everyone would like.
I wouldn't bet on clarity in MCOC, but I have forwarded this discussion to the developers to review. I can say I was told two things in particular about this situation:
1. "Not get hit while dashing back" is a completely different mechanic than Evade. It is a related mechanic to Dexterity's ability to make it easier for you to dash back and avoid attacks. So things that affect one mechanic will not automatically affect the other unless specified.
2. Domino is black magic. Why are things sometimes inconsistent when it comes to Domino? Because Domino.
If someone wants to conduct this experiment or wants to pass this along to Beroman, I have an interesting suggestion. Take the Dexterity mastery off of Invisible Woman and Quicksilver. Then fight Domino. Something interesting might happen.
I agree with this. I highly doubt Kabam will be willing to put much effort into clarity at this point. It would likely expose more bugs and mechanics that don't match their clarification and wouldn't be worth it. More likely they'll leave it unless something is so broken they need to intervene. Even in that scenario, I doubt they would explain as much as everyone would like.
I wouldn't bet on clarity in MCOC, but I have forwarded this discussion to the developers to review. I can say I was told two things in particular about this situation:
1. "Not get hit while dashing back" is a completely different mechanic than Evade. It is a related mechanic to Dexterity's ability to make it easier for you to dash back and avoid attacks. So things that affect one mechanic will not automatically affect the other unless specified.
2. Domino is black magic. Why are things sometimes inconsistent when it comes to Domino? Because Domino.
If someone wants to conduct this experiment or wants to pass this along to Beroman, I have an interesting suggestion. Take the Dexterity mastery off of Invisible Woman and Quicksilver. Then fight Domino. Something interesting might happen.
Something interesting happened to me today in BGs. I was fighting Quicksilver with Domino and while he was unlucky, he still evaded me while stunned. So definitely black magic going on
I agree with this. I highly doubt Kabam will be willing to put much effort into clarity at this point. It would likely expose more bugs and mechanics that don't match their clarification and wouldn't be worth it. More likely they'll leave it unless something is so broken they need to intervene. Even in that scenario, I doubt they would explain as much as everyone would like.
I wouldn't bet on clarity in MCOC, but I have forwarded this discussion to the developers to review. I can say I was told two things in particular about this situation:
1. "Not get hit while dashing back" is a completely different mechanic than Evade. It is a related mechanic to Dexterity's ability to make it easier for you to dash back and avoid attacks. So things that affect one mechanic will not automatically affect the other unless specified.
2. Domino is black magic. Why are things sometimes inconsistent when it comes to Domino? Because Domino.
If someone wants to conduct this experiment or wants to pass this along to Beroman, I have an interesting suggestion. Take the Dexterity mastery off of Invisible Woman and Quicksilver. Then fight Domino. Something interesting might happen.
Something interesting happened to me today in BGs. I was fighting Quicksilver with Domino and while he was unlucky, he still evaded me while stunned. So definitely black magic going on
After practicing a lot against my QS using domino, I learned he successfully evades while in terminal velocity.
Immune to passive ability accuracy reduction isn't the same as immune to Unlucky, just as it doesn't mean immune to Concussion. Unlucky does more than just that one thing.
OML's abilities don't say "immune to passive ability accuracy reductions", it says "Logan's Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased or increased." It says nothing about his base ability accuracy, which would be assumed to be 100%. He can still Dex.
Longshot's says his "Ability Accuracy can only be reduced through the effects of Debuffs." It doesn't say that his base ability accuracy can't be reduced. His base ability accuracy is known to be 300%, but that doesn't come into play in this. He can't Dex.
If the Kabam official answer is "Domino gonna Domino", then it's whatever. I assume the discrepancy is a combo of OML's ability accuracy modification prevention being written differently than Longshot's beyond just the debuff aspect and the usual programming over time drift. Longshot's was written in a way that Domino could get at, and old man Logan's wasn't.
I agree with this. I highly doubt Kabam will be willing to put much effort into clarity at this point. It would likely expose more bugs and mechanics that don't match their clarification and wouldn't be worth it. More likely they'll leave it unless something is so broken they need to intervene. Even in that scenario, I doubt they would explain as much as everyone would like.
I wouldn't bet on clarity in MCOC, but I have forwarded this discussion to the developers to review. I can say I was told two things in particular about this situation:
1. "Not get hit while dashing back" is a completely different mechanic than Evade. It is a related mechanic to Dexterity's ability to make it easier for you to dash back and avoid attacks. So things that affect one mechanic will not automatically affect the other unless specified.
2. Domino is black magic. Why are things sometimes inconsistent when it comes to Domino? Because Domino.
If someone wants to conduct this experiment or wants to pass this along to Beroman, I have an interesting suggestion. Take the Dexterity mastery off of Invisible Woman and Quicksilver. Then fight Domino. Something interesting might happen.
Something interesting happened to me today in BGs. I was fighting Quicksilver with Domino and while he was unlucky, he still evaded me while stunned. So definitely black magic going on
After practicing a lot against my QS using domino, I learned he successfully evades while in terminal velocity.
His medium/stun auto evade or a manual Dex where you would have had the increased invulnerability window?
I agree with this. I highly doubt Kabam will be willing to put much effort into clarity at this point. It would likely expose more bugs and mechanics that don't match their clarification and wouldn't be worth it. More likely they'll leave it unless something is so broken they need to intervene. Even in that scenario, I doubt they would explain as much as everyone would like.
I wouldn't bet on clarity in MCOC, but I have forwarded this discussion to the developers to review. I can say I was told two things in particular about this situation:
1. "Not get hit while dashing back" is a completely different mechanic than Evade. It is a related mechanic to Dexterity's ability to make it easier for you to dash back and avoid attacks. So things that affect one mechanic will not automatically affect the other unless specified.
2. Domino is black magic. Why are things sometimes inconsistent when it comes to Domino? Because Domino.
If someone wants to conduct this experiment or wants to pass this along to Beroman, I have an interesting suggestion. Take the Dexterity mastery off of Invisible Woman and Quicksilver. Then fight Domino. Something interesting might happen.
Something interesting happened to me today in BGs. I was fighting Quicksilver with Domino and while he was unlucky, he still evaded me while stunned. So definitely black magic going on
After practicing a lot against my QS using domino, I learned he successfully evades while in terminal velocity.
His medium/stun auto evade or a manual Dex where you would have had the increased invulnerability window?
Looks like it, on offense using QS, I avoided the first hit of her medium and got hit by the second hit while in terminal velocity. It is hard to tell though since the Dexterity callout doesn't even appear 🤣
Immune to passive ability accuracy reduction isn't the same as immune to Unlucky, just as it doesn't mean immune to Concussion. Unlucky does more than just that one thing.
OML's abilities don't say "immune to passive ability accuracy reductions", it says "Logan's Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased or increased." It says nothing about his base ability accuracy, which would be assumed to be 100%. He can still Dex.
The word "base" here is superfluous. "Base ability accuracy" is not something different from the champion's ability accuracy. That's just additional verbiage. OML says Logan's Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased or increased, and Domino's Unlucky passive neither increases nor decreases Logan's Ability Accuracy.
Unluicky does not increase or decrease OML's Ability Accuracy. OML's ability accuracy is 100% before Unlucky, it is 100% after Unlucky.
OML's Evade ability accuracy is a completely different thing, and OML is not stated to have any way of preventing his Evade ability accuracy from increasing or decreasing. OML's Evade ability accuracy is not the same thing as OML's ability accuracy, any more than a pistol's accuracy is the same thing as the shooter's accuracy.
Longshot's says his "Ability Accuracy can only be reduced through the effects of Debuffs." It doesn't say that his base ability accuracy can't be reduced. His base ability accuracy is known to be 300%, but that doesn't come into play in this. He can't Dex.
Once again, champions have ability accuracy and abilities have ability accuracy,. Longshot says his ability accuracy can only be reduced through the effects of Debuffs. It does not say that every one of Longshot's abilities can only have each individual ability's ability accuracy reduced through debuffs.
"OML's ability accuracy" and "Longshot's ability accuracy" is not synonymous with "The ability accuracy of every one of OML's individual abilities." This is not some MCOC technicality. Whenever anyone speaks colloquially, they do not by default refer to the properties of a thing and the properties of the things associated with or components of that thing synonymously. Particularly in the context of an entity and its tools, when I say a plumber is expensive, I am not automatically saying his wrenches are expensive. When I say an accountant is inaccurate, I am not automatically saying their calculator is inaccurate. When I say I don't mind getting wet, that doesn't automatically apply to my phone.
Longshot has a stat called ability accuracy. It is 300%. Longshot has an ability called Good Karma. It has a 17% ability accuracy to add one good karma charge to Longshot when Longshot is attacked.
If I ask "what's Longshot's abililty accuracy" do you say "300%" or do you say "which one?" If you say "300%" then that's the thing that can only be modified by debuffs. If you say "which one" then good luck communicating about the game mechanics to anyone else.
I agree with this. I highly doubt Kabam will be willing to put much effort into clarity at this point. It would likely expose more bugs and mechanics that don't match their clarification and wouldn't be worth it. More likely they'll leave it unless something is so broken they need to intervene. Even in that scenario, I doubt they would explain as much as everyone would like.
I wouldn't bet on clarity in MCOC, but I have forwarded this discussion to the developers to review. I can say I was told two things in particular about this situation:
1. "Not get hit while dashing back" is a completely different mechanic than Evade. It is a related mechanic to Dexterity's ability to make it easier for you to dash back and avoid attacks. So things that affect one mechanic will not automatically affect the other unless specified.
2. Domino is black magic. Why are things sometimes inconsistent when it comes to Domino? Because Domino.
If someone wants to conduct this experiment or wants to pass this along to Beroman, I have an interesting suggestion. Take the Dexterity mastery off of Invisible Woman and Quicksilver. Then fight Domino. Something interesting might happen.
Something interesting happened to me today in BGs. I was fighting Quicksilver with Domino and while he was unlucky, he still evaded me while stunned. So definitely black magic going on
After practicing a lot against my QS using domino, I learned he successfully evades while in terminal velocity.
His medium/stun auto evade or a manual Dex where you would have had the increased invulnerability window?
Looks like it, on offense using QS, I avoided the first hit of her medium and got hit by the second hit while in terminal velocity. It is hard to tell though since the Dexterity callout doesn't even appear 🤣
Immune to passive ability accuracy reduction isn't the same as immune to Unlucky, just as it doesn't mean immune to Concussion. Unlucky does more than just that one thing.
OML's abilities don't say "immune to passive ability accuracy reductions", it says "Logan's Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased or increased." It says nothing about his base ability accuracy, which would be assumed to be 100%. He can still Dex.
The word "base" here is superfluous. "Base ability accuracy" is not something different from the champion's ability accuracy. That's just additional verbiage. OML says Logan's Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased or increased, and Domino's Unlucky passive neither increases nor decreases Logan's Ability Accuracy.
Unluicky does not increase or decrease OML's Ability Accuracy. OML's ability accuracy is 100% before Unlucky, it is 100% after Unlucky.
OML's Evade ability accuracy is a completely different thing, and OML is not stated to have any way of preventing his Evade ability accuracy from increasing or decreasing. OML's Evade ability accuracy is not the same thing as OML's ability accuracy, any more than a pistol's accuracy is the same thing as the shooter's accuracy.
Longshot's says his "Ability Accuracy can only be reduced through the effects of Debuffs." It doesn't say that his base ability accuracy can't be reduced. His base ability accuracy is known to be 300%, but that doesn't come into play in this. He can't Dex.
Once again, champions have ability accuracy and abilities have ability accuracy,. Longshot says his ability accuracy can only be reduced through the effects of Debuffs. It does not say that every one of Longshot's abilities can only have each individual ability's ability accuracy reduced through debuffs.
"OML's ability accuracy" and "Longshot's ability accuracy" is not synonymous with "The ability accuracy of every one of OML's individual abilities." This is not some MCOC technicality. Whenever anyone speaks colloquially, they do not by default refer to the properties of a thing and the properties of the things associated with or components of that thing synonymously. Particularly in the context of an entity and its tools, when I say a plumber is expensive, I am not automatically saying his wrenches are expensive. When I say an accountant is inaccurate, I am not automatically saying their calculator is inaccurate. When I say I don't mind getting wet, that doesn't automatically apply to my phone.
Longshot has a stat called ability accuracy. It is 300%. Longshot has an ability called Good Karma. It has a 17% ability accuracy to add one good karma charge to Longshot when Longshot is attacked.
If I ask "what's Longshot's abililty accuracy" do you say "300%" or do you say "which one?" If you say "300%" then that's the thing that can only be modified by debuffs. If you say "which one" then good luck communicating about the game mechanics to anyone else.
Lol. Actually, if that's all you're going to give me, I'd say "It depends." If you're looking for a short answer and not a general definition, I'd need some givens if you want an answer that makes sense.
"Base ability accuracy" was introduced by Kabam. If someone is arguing against the idea of a champ having an inherent ability accuracy that can be modified and an ability having an assumed or explicitly given accuracy that can be modified, it isn't me. Kabam were the ones that said Longshot's listed abilities already has his unusual base accuracy accounted for.
[Champ base AA] * [Ability AA] = ??
What should ?? be called? I think right now people also call ?? ability accuracy.
So for Longshot while Unlucky, ?? = 0 because Domino has made Evade/Dex AAA = 0. Dex fails.
While for OML who is also Unlucky, ?? = 100 because Domino has still made Evade/Dex AAA = 0 but...? Dex succeeds.
@DNA3000 honest question, because I’ve always conceptualized ability accuracy in the way you’re describing (kinda like a tree that branches out, at every junction there’s a chance check and if you fail one the ability doesn’t activate, so like you said the simplest would be Base%*Ability%), but how does neutralize fit in here?
I would have thought that buff ability accuracy would be considered separate from a champion’s base ability accuracy (I always imagined it as Base%*Buff%*Fury%, for instance), but if I recall correctly Kabam made champs immune to AA reduction also immune to neutralize.
But it really seems like it should function more like Domino’s -100% evade chance (which Longshot for instance cannot prevent) than her general -15% AA reduction (which he can). From a balance perspective I kinda get it but not sure how it fits into this system.
Again, this isn’t meant to be a gotcha since I agree that how you describe AA is how it does/should function, just not sure if I’m missing something obvious here (also, how does Longshot interact with neutralize, since he isn’t immune to AA?)
@DNA3000 honest question, because I’ve always conceptualized ability accuracy in the way you’re describing (kinda like a tree that branches out, at every junction there’s a chance check and if you fail one the ability doesn’t activate, so like you said the simplest would be Base%*Ability%), but how does neutralize fit in here?
I would have thought that buff ability accuracy would be considered separate from a champion’s base ability accuracy (I always imagined it as Base%*Buff%*Fury%, for instance), but if I recall correctly Kabam made champs immune to AA reduction also immune to neutralize.
But it really seems like it should function more like Domino’s -100% evade chance (which Longshot for instance cannot prevent) than her general -15% AA reduction (which he can). From a balance perspective I kinda get it but not sure how it fits into this system.
Again, this isn’t meant to be a gotcha since I agree that how you describe AA is how it does/should function, just not sure if I’m missing something obvious here (also, how does Longshot interact with neutralize, since he isn’t immune to AA?)
If you are referring to the 36.2 update to neutralize behavior, that’s a deep implementation thing. As I mentioned previously, there was a time when “AAR immunity” did not actually exist as a specific explicit immunity. For a champ to be immune to anything, there are, in a sense, two ways to implement that immunity. Let’s call them source based immunity and destination based immunity.
Most immunity in the game is implemented in the latter way. For example, when a champ is bleed immune, they are simply flagged to be immune to bleed itself as an effect. Damage that is typed as bleed will simply do nothing. It doesn’t matter where the bleed comes from or how the bleed is delivered. It doesn’t matter what the “source” of the bleed is, if it ultimately tries to land on the champion as a bleed, if bleed is the “destination” of the effect, it does nothing.
To do this requires that the game engine actually recognize the effect as a specific kind of thing that it can immunize the champ against. For example, there’s no way to flag a champ as being immune to damage delivered by pistols. There is no “pistol flag” you can set to make the champ immune to pistol attacks. But that doesn’t mean you can’t make a champ immune to pistol attacks. But instead of setting a flag, you instead have to find all pistol attack in the game and make the champ I’m use to the effects of every one of those attacks individually. If you do, the champ will be immune to pistol attacks. You list all possible “sources” of pistol damage, and you make the champ immune to those sources.
Until you make a new champ with pistol attacks. Because the champ won’t be automatically immune to those new attacks. You’d have to go back and change the immunity design to add the new attacks. And every time something new is added, you will have to remember to go back and update things, or your pistol immunity will start to see gaps in the immunity.
AAR immunity, as I understand it, was in a similar situation. Although the game supports AAR today as a fundamental immunity, when champs like AA were created there was no such immunity. AAR had to be constructed just like pistol immunity. And even after AAR immunity was added to the game engine, many newer champions that had AAR immunity copied the old way of implementing it instead of using the newer engine tech. As a result, when neutralize was added as a new type of effect, many champs that were designed with list-based AAR immunity were not immune to neutralize. As a result when this came up, the devs had to go back and identify all the champs this would affect based on their internal implementation details, and retroactively add neutralize onto the list of effects they were immune to. That’s what I believe the 36.2 update refers to when it refers to neutralize being added to the list of effects that AAR immunity protects against. It isn’t that AAR immunity itself “needed” this, in fact true AAR immunity would not. Anything with true AAR immunity would be immune to neutralize from the start. The problem was all the champs *described* as having AAR immunity but were actually “pretending” to have AAR immunity by being implemented with a list of immunities that emulated AAR immunity.
So the short answer is: anything with true AAR immunity will be immune to neutralize, and would have been the day neutralize was added to the game. However, many champs do not have true AAR immunity and instead are immune to all the known sources of AAR at the time they were designed. Which means new effects that affect ability accuracy can escape that immunity until it is updated.
I agree with this. I highly doubt Kabam will be willing to put much effort into clarity at this point. It would likely expose more bugs and mechanics that don't match their clarification and wouldn't be worth it. More likely they'll leave it unless something is so broken they need to intervene. Even in that scenario, I doubt they would explain as much as everyone would like.
I wouldn't bet on clarity in MCOC, but I have forwarded this discussion to the developers to review. I can say I was told two things in particular about this situation:
1. "Not get hit while dashing back" is a completely different mechanic than Evade. It is a related mechanic to Dexterity's ability to make it easier for you to dash back and avoid attacks. So things that affect one mechanic will not automatically affect the other unless specified.
2. Domino is black magic. Why are things sometimes inconsistent when it comes to Domino? Because Domino.
If someone wants to conduct this experiment or wants to pass this along to Beroman, I have an interesting suggestion. Take the Dexterity mastery off of Invisible Woman and Quicksilver. Then fight Domino. Something interesting might happen.
Something interesting happened to me today in BGs. I was fighting Quicksilver with Domino and while he was unlucky, he still evaded me while stunned. So definitely black magic going on
After practicing a lot against my QS using domino, I learned he successfully evades while in terminal velocity.
His medium/stun auto evade or a manual Dex where you would have had the increased invulnerability window?
Looks like it, on offense using QS, I avoided the first hit of her medium and got hit by the second hit while in terminal velocity. It is hard to tell though since the Dexterity callout doesn't even appear 🤣
Immune to passive ability accuracy reduction isn't the same as immune to Unlucky, just as it doesn't mean immune to Concussion. Unlucky does more than just that one thing.
OML's abilities don't say "immune to passive ability accuracy reductions", it says "Logan's Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased or increased." It says nothing about his base ability accuracy, which would be assumed to be 100%. He can still Dex.
The word "base" here is superfluous. "Base ability accuracy" is not something different from the champion's ability accuracy. That's just additional verbiage. OML says Logan's Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased or increased, and Domino's Unlucky passive neither increases nor decreases Logan's Ability Accuracy.
Unluicky does not increase or decrease OML's Ability Accuracy. OML's ability accuracy is 100% before Unlucky, it is 100% after Unlucky.
OML's Evade ability accuracy is a completely different thing, and OML is not stated to have any way of preventing his Evade ability accuracy from increasing or decreasing. OML's Evade ability accuracy is not the same thing as OML's ability accuracy, any more than a pistol's accuracy is the same thing as the shooter's accuracy.
Longshot's says his "Ability Accuracy can only be reduced through the effects of Debuffs." It doesn't say that his base ability accuracy can't be reduced. His base ability accuracy is known to be 300%, but that doesn't come into play in this. He can't Dex.
Once again, champions have ability accuracy and abilities have ability accuracy,. Longshot says his ability accuracy can only be reduced through the effects of Debuffs. It does not say that every one of Longshot's abilities can only have each individual ability's ability accuracy reduced through debuffs.
"OML's ability accuracy" and "Longshot's ability accuracy" is not synonymous with "The ability accuracy of every one of OML's individual abilities." This is not some MCOC technicality. Whenever anyone speaks colloquially, they do not by default refer to the properties of a thing and the properties of the things associated with or components of that thing synonymously. Particularly in the context of an entity and its tools, when I say a plumber is expensive, I am not automatically saying his wrenches are expensive. When I say an accountant is inaccurate, I am not automatically saying their calculator is inaccurate. When I say I don't mind getting wet, that doesn't automatically apply to my phone.
Longshot has a stat called ability accuracy. It is 300%. Longshot has an ability called Good Karma. It has a 17% ability accuracy to add one good karma charge to Longshot when Longshot is attacked.
If I ask "what's Longshot's abililty accuracy" do you say "300%" or do you say "which one?" If you say "300%" then that's the thing that can only be modified by debuffs. If you say "which one" then good luck communicating about the game mechanics to anyone else.
Lol. Actually, if that's all you're going to give me, I'd say "It depends."
As I said, good luck with that. That's not a position conducive to communicating about the game mechanics, which is my primary interest here. I'm not particularly interested in counter productive epistemology for its own sake.
I agree with this. I highly doubt Kabam will be willing to put much effort into clarity at this point. It would likely expose more bugs and mechanics that don't match their clarification and wouldn't be worth it. More likely they'll leave it unless something is so broken they need to intervene. Even in that scenario, I doubt they would explain as much as everyone would like.
I wouldn't bet on clarity in MCOC, but I have forwarded this discussion to the developers to review. I can say I was told two things in particular about this situation:
1. "Not get hit while dashing back" is a completely different mechanic than Evade. It is a related mechanic to Dexterity's ability to make it easier for you to dash back and avoid attacks. So things that affect one mechanic will not automatically affect the other unless specified.
2. Domino is black magic. Why are things sometimes inconsistent when it comes to Domino? Because Domino.
If someone wants to conduct this experiment or wants to pass this along to Beroman, I have an interesting suggestion. Take the Dexterity mastery off of Invisible Woman and Quicksilver. Then fight Domino. Something interesting might happen.
Something interesting happened to me today in BGs. I was fighting Quicksilver with Domino and while he was unlucky, he still evaded me while stunned. So definitely black magic going on
After practicing a lot against my QS using domino, I learned he successfully evades while in terminal velocity.
His medium/stun auto evade or a manual Dex where you would have had the increased invulnerability window?
Looks like it, on offense using QS, I avoided the first hit of her medium and got hit by the second hit while in terminal velocity. It is hard to tell though since the Dexterity callout doesn't even appear 🤣
Immune to passive ability accuracy reduction isn't the same as immune to Unlucky, just as it doesn't mean immune to Concussion. Unlucky does more than just that one thing.
OML's abilities don't say "immune to passive ability accuracy reductions", it says "Logan's Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased or increased." It says nothing about his base ability accuracy, which would be assumed to be 100%. He can still Dex.
The word "base" here is superfluous. "Base ability accuracy" is not something different from the champion's ability accuracy. That's just additional verbiage. OML says Logan's Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased or increased, and Domino's Unlucky passive neither increases nor decreases Logan's Ability Accuracy.
Unluicky does not increase or decrease OML's Ability Accuracy. OML's ability accuracy is 100% before Unlucky, it is 100% after Unlucky.
OML's Evade ability accuracy is a completely different thing, and OML is not stated to have any way of preventing his Evade ability accuracy from increasing or decreasing. OML's Evade ability accuracy is not the same thing as OML's ability accuracy, any more than a pistol's accuracy is the same thing as the shooter's accuracy.
Longshot's says his "Ability Accuracy can only be reduced through the effects of Debuffs." It doesn't say that his base ability accuracy can't be reduced. His base ability accuracy is known to be 300%, but that doesn't come into play in this. He can't Dex.
Once again, champions have ability accuracy and abilities have ability accuracy,. Longshot says his ability accuracy can only be reduced through the effects of Debuffs. It does not say that every one of Longshot's abilities can only have each individual ability's ability accuracy reduced through debuffs.
"OML's ability accuracy" and "Longshot's ability accuracy" is not synonymous with "The ability accuracy of every one of OML's individual abilities." This is not some MCOC technicality. Whenever anyone speaks colloquially, they do not by default refer to the properties of a thing and the properties of the things associated with or components of that thing synonymously. Particularly in the context of an entity and its tools, when I say a plumber is expensive, I am not automatically saying his wrenches are expensive. When I say an accountant is inaccurate, I am not automatically saying their calculator is inaccurate. When I say I don't mind getting wet, that doesn't automatically apply to my phone.
Longshot has a stat called ability accuracy. It is 300%. Longshot has an ability called Good Karma. It has a 17% ability accuracy to add one good karma charge to Longshot when Longshot is attacked.
If I ask "what's Longshot's abililty accuracy" do you say "300%" or do you say "which one?" If you say "300%" then that's the thing that can only be modified by debuffs. If you say "which one" then good luck communicating about the game mechanics to anyone else.
Lol. Actually, if that's all you're going to give me, I'd say "It depends."
As I said, good luck with that. That's not a position conducive to communicating about the game mechanics, which is my primary interest here. I'm not particularly interested in counter productive epistemology for its own sake.
If you're going to ask a poorly constructed question that depends on multiple factors without giving any of them, you get what you get and you don't throw a fit.
I agree with this. I highly doubt Kabam will be willing to put much effort into clarity at this point. It would likely expose more bugs and mechanics that don't match their clarification and wouldn't be worth it. More likely they'll leave it unless something is so broken they need to intervene. Even in that scenario, I doubt they would explain as much as everyone would like.
I wouldn't bet on clarity in MCOC, but I have forwarded this discussion to the developers to review. I can say I was told two things in particular about this situation:
1. "Not get hit while dashing back" is a completely different mechanic than Evade. It is a related mechanic to Dexterity's ability to make it easier for you to dash back and avoid attacks. So things that affect one mechanic will not automatically affect the other unless specified.
2. Domino is black magic. Why are things sometimes inconsistent when it comes to Domino? Because Domino.
If someone wants to conduct this experiment or wants to pass this along to Beroman, I have an interesting suggestion. Take the Dexterity mastery off of Invisible Woman and Quicksilver. Then fight Domino. Something interesting might happen.
Something interesting happened to me today in BGs. I was fighting Quicksilver with Domino and while he was unlucky, he still evaded me while stunned. So definitely black magic going on
After practicing a lot against my QS using domino, I learned he successfully evades while in terminal velocity.
His medium/stun auto evade or a manual Dex where you would have had the increased invulnerability window?
Looks like it, on offense using QS, I avoided the first hit of her medium and got hit by the second hit while in terminal velocity. It is hard to tell though since the Dexterity callout doesn't even appear 🤣
Immune to passive ability accuracy reduction isn't the same as immune to Unlucky, just as it doesn't mean immune to Concussion. Unlucky does more than just that one thing.
OML's abilities don't say "immune to passive ability accuracy reductions", it says "Logan's Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased or increased." It says nothing about his base ability accuracy, which would be assumed to be 100%. He can still Dex.
The word "base" here is superfluous. "Base ability accuracy" is not something different from the champion's ability accuracy. That's just additional verbiage. OML says Logan's Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased or increased, and Domino's Unlucky passive neither increases nor decreases Logan's Ability Accuracy.
Unluicky does not increase or decrease OML's Ability Accuracy. OML's ability accuracy is 100% before Unlucky, it is 100% after Unlucky.
OML's Evade ability accuracy is a completely different thing, and OML is not stated to have any way of preventing his Evade ability accuracy from increasing or decreasing. OML's Evade ability accuracy is not the same thing as OML's ability accuracy, any more than a pistol's accuracy is the same thing as the shooter's accuracy.
Longshot's says his "Ability Accuracy can only be reduced through the effects of Debuffs." It doesn't say that his base ability accuracy can't be reduced. His base ability accuracy is known to be 300%, but that doesn't come into play in this. He can't Dex.
Once again, champions have ability accuracy and abilities have ability accuracy,. Longshot says his ability accuracy can only be reduced through the effects of Debuffs. It does not say that every one of Longshot's abilities can only have each individual ability's ability accuracy reduced through debuffs.
"OML's ability accuracy" and "Longshot's ability accuracy" is not synonymous with "The ability accuracy of every one of OML's individual abilities." This is not some MCOC technicality. Whenever anyone speaks colloquially, they do not by default refer to the properties of a thing and the properties of the things associated with or components of that thing synonymously. Particularly in the context of an entity and its tools, when I say a plumber is expensive, I am not automatically saying his wrenches are expensive. When I say an accountant is inaccurate, I am not automatically saying their calculator is inaccurate. When I say I don't mind getting wet, that doesn't automatically apply to my phone.
Longshot has a stat called ability accuracy. It is 300%. Longshot has an ability called Good Karma. It has a 17% ability accuracy to add one good karma charge to Longshot when Longshot is attacked.
If I ask "what's Longshot's abililty accuracy" do you say "300%" or do you say "which one?" If you say "300%" then that's the thing that can only be modified by debuffs. If you say "which one" then good luck communicating about the game mechanics to anyone else.
Lol. Actually, if that's all you're going to give me, I'd say "It depends."
As I said, good luck with that. That's not a position conducive to communicating about the game mechanics, which is my primary interest here. I'm not particularly interested in counter productive epistemology for its own sake.
If you're going to ask a poorly constructed question that depends on multiple factors without giving any of them, you get what you get and you don't throw a fit.
I am not "throwing a fit." I am simply stating the fact that while I can explain the game mechanics and I can judge the game documentation, I am neither willing nor able to address whatever problem you seem to be having. So I believe you would be best served addressing your questions to someone who understands your specific difficulties better and speaks whatever language you need that communicated in.
I am not "throwing a fit." I am simply stating the fact that while I can explain the game mechanics and I can judge the game documentation, I am neither willing nor able to address whatever problem you seem to be having. So I believe you would be best served addressing your questions to someone who understands your specific difficulties better and speaks whatever language you need that communicated in.
Comments
First of all, when you say "one means squat" which one do you mean. I wouldn't want to be accused of putting words in your mouth. Are you accusing immunity to bleed as meaning squat?Just to save time, I'm going to hypothesize that the one you meant was "immune to passive ability accuracy reduction." This may be false, but in this hypothetical, what examples do you have of a champ explicitly being stated to be immune to passive ability accuracy reduction actually being affected by passive ability accuracy reduction.
As I previously stated, OML is immune to passive ability accuracy reductions. Longshot is not. Didn't you literally just say in the post above that you never said Longshot was, or should be, immune to ability accuracy reduction effects? Now you're saying he should be?Longshot's ability accuracy is not being affected by Unlucky. Show me evidence that it actually is being affected. Showing him miss an evade is not evidence, because Longshot's ability accuracy can still be exactly 300% and he can still miss an evade, because as previously explained his base ability accuracy does not alone dictate his chance to evade.
1. "Not get hit while dashing back" is a completely different mechanic than Evade. It is a related mechanic to Dexterity's ability to make it easier for you to dash back and avoid attacks. So things that affect one mechanic will not automatically affect the other unless specified.
2. Domino is black magic. Why are things sometimes inconsistent when it comes to Domino? Because Domino.
If someone wants to conduct this experiment or wants to pass this along to Beroman, I have an interesting suggestion. Take the Dexterity mastery off of Invisible Woman and Quicksilver. Then fight Domino. Something interesting might happen.
Immune to passive ability accuracy reduction isn't the same as immune to Unlucky, just as it doesn't mean immune to Concussion. Unlucky does more than just that one thing.
OML's abilities don't say "immune to passive ability accuracy reductions", it says "Logan's Ability Accuracy cannot be decreased or increased." It says nothing about his base ability accuracy, which would be assumed to be 100%. He can still Dex.
Longshot's says his "Ability Accuracy can only be reduced through the effects of Debuffs." It doesn't say that his base ability accuracy can't be reduced. His base ability accuracy is known to be 300%, but that doesn't come into play in this. He can't Dex.
If the Kabam official answer is "Domino gonna Domino", then it's whatever. I assume the discrepancy is a combo of OML's ability accuracy modification prevention being written differently than Longshot's beyond just the debuff aspect and the usual programming over time drift. Longshot's was written in a way that Domino could get at, and old man Logan's wasn't.
Unluicky does not increase or decrease OML's Ability Accuracy. OML's ability accuracy is 100% before Unlucky, it is 100% after Unlucky.
OML's Evade ability accuracy is a completely different thing, and OML is not stated to have any way of preventing his Evade ability accuracy from increasing or decreasing. OML's Evade ability accuracy is not the same thing as OML's ability accuracy, any more than a pistol's accuracy is the same thing as the shooter's accuracy.
Once again, champions have ability accuracy and abilities have ability accuracy,. Longshot says his ability accuracy can only be reduced through the effects of Debuffs. It does not say that every one of Longshot's abilities can only have each individual ability's ability accuracy reduced through debuffs.
"OML's ability accuracy" and "Longshot's ability accuracy" is not synonymous with "The ability accuracy of every one of OML's individual abilities." This is not some MCOC technicality. Whenever anyone speaks colloquially, they do not by default refer to the properties of a thing and the properties of the things associated with or components of that thing synonymously. Particularly in the context of an entity and its tools, when I say a plumber is expensive, I am not automatically saying his wrenches are expensive. When I say an accountant is inaccurate, I am not automatically saying their calculator is inaccurate. When I say I don't mind getting wet, that doesn't automatically apply to my phone.
Longshot has a stat called ability accuracy. It is 300%. Longshot has an ability called Good Karma. It has a 17% ability accuracy to add one good karma charge to Longshot when Longshot is attacked.
If I ask "what's Longshot's abililty accuracy" do you say "300%" or do you say "which one?" If you say "300%" then that's the thing that can only be modified by debuffs. If you say "which one" then good luck communicating about the game mechanics to anyone else.
"Base ability accuracy" was introduced by Kabam. If someone is arguing against the idea of a champ having an inherent ability accuracy that can be modified and an ability having an assumed or explicitly given accuracy that can be modified, it isn't me.
Kabam were the ones that said Longshot's listed abilities already has his unusual base accuracy accounted for.
[Champ base AA] * [Ability AA] = ??
What should ?? be called? I think right now people also call ?? ability accuracy.
So for Longshot while Unlucky, ?? = 0 because Domino has made Evade/Dex AAA = 0. Dex fails.
While for OML who is also Unlucky, ?? = 100 because Domino has still made Evade/Dex AAA = 0 but...? Dex succeeds.
I would have thought that buff ability accuracy would be considered separate from a champion’s base ability accuracy (I always imagined it as Base%*Buff%*Fury%, for instance), but if I recall correctly Kabam made champs immune to AA reduction also immune to neutralize.
But it really seems like it should function more like Domino’s -100% evade chance (which Longshot for instance cannot prevent) than her general -15% AA reduction (which he can). From a balance perspective I kinda get it but not sure how it fits into this system.
Again, this isn’t meant to be a gotcha since I agree that how you describe AA is how it does/should function, just not sure if I’m missing something obvious here (also, how does Longshot interact with neutralize, since he isn’t immune to AA?)
Most immunity in the game is implemented in the latter way. For example, when a champ is bleed immune, they are simply flagged to be immune to bleed itself as an effect. Damage that is typed as bleed will simply do nothing. It doesn’t matter where the bleed comes from or how the bleed is delivered. It doesn’t matter what the “source” of the bleed is, if it ultimately tries to land on the champion as a bleed, if bleed is the “destination” of the effect, it does nothing.
To do this requires that the game engine actually recognize the effect as a specific kind of thing that it can immunize the champ against. For example, there’s no way to flag a champ as being immune to damage delivered by pistols. There is no “pistol flag” you can set to make the champ immune to pistol attacks. But that doesn’t mean you can’t make a champ immune to pistol attacks. But instead of setting a flag, you instead have to find all pistol attack in the game and make the champ I’m use to the effects of every one of those attacks individually. If you do, the champ will be immune to pistol attacks. You list all possible “sources” of pistol damage, and you make the champ immune to those sources.
Until you make a new champ with pistol attacks. Because the champ won’t be automatically immune to those new attacks. You’d have to go back and change the immunity design to add the new attacks. And every time something new is added, you will have to remember to go back and update things, or your pistol immunity will start to see gaps in the immunity.
AAR immunity, as I understand it, was in a similar situation. Although the game supports AAR today as a fundamental immunity, when champs like AA were created there was no such immunity. AAR had to be constructed just like pistol immunity. And even after AAR immunity was added to the game engine, many newer champions that had AAR immunity copied the old way of implementing it instead of using the newer engine tech. As a result, when neutralize was added as a new type of effect, many champs that were designed with list-based AAR immunity were not immune to neutralize. As a result when this came up, the devs had to go back and identify all the champs this would affect based on their internal implementation details, and retroactively add neutralize onto the list of effects they were immune to. That’s what I believe the 36.2 update refers to when it refers to neutralize being added to the list of effects that AAR immunity protects against. It isn’t that AAR immunity itself “needed” this, in fact true AAR immunity would not. Anything with true AAR immunity would be immune to neutralize from the start. The problem was all the champs *described* as having AAR immunity but were actually “pretending” to have AAR immunity by being implemented with a list of immunities that emulated AAR immunity.
So the short answer is: anything with true AAR immunity will be immune to neutralize, and would have been the day neutralize was added to the game. However, many champs do not have true AAR immunity and instead are immune to all the known sources of AAR at the time they were designed. Which means new effects that affect ability accuracy can escape that immunity until it is updated.