**KNOWN AW ISSUE**
Please be aware, there is a known issue with Saga badging when observing the AW map.
The team have found the source of the issue and will be updating with our next build.
We apologize for the inconvenience.
Please be aware, there is a known issue with Saga badging when observing the AW map.
The team have found the source of the issue and will be updating with our next build.
We apologize for the inconvenience.
Options
Comments
is he now more useful than other peter parkers in the game? arguably 3rd or 4th on the list
is he now a top #spiderverse hero champ? the fact that you can name at least 5 you'd rather have than og is tragic, but accurate
is he now a top 5 slow/taunt science option? he wasn't before but he is now, so that's good
so buff= ok
And thanks for the reminder it's a flat reduction - that means he actually does work for a lot of Evade champs, even unduped. I hadn't realised that, it's a helpful insight. It won't help much against Ultron though, who is immune to slow...
Still, it's odd that Kabam - who have clearly recognised the benefits of incorporating the champions Sig into their base kit to make them more playable 'out of the box' (see prior buffs to Vulture, Nebula, Gamora, Karnak, Thor Rags, Jane Foster) decided to do exactly the opposite with probably the single most popular classic champion in the game 🤔.
That's the only thing that made me vote 'No' - there's a decent amount there to feel good about; and he's definitely a whole lot better now.
I don’t doubt that OG Spiderman is useful. I’m asking whether or not you are happy with the buff.
Look at the Hulk for example, an OG champ that got buffed and turned out great.
This buff feels lackluster and leaves me wanting more.
The way I read most of what you said, it feels like you *do* doubt that Spidey is useful.
Things like:
“ he *could* slap, but he’s synergy-reliant. And his utility doesn’t really do anything.”
“I’m not sure what this kit is designed to do.”
“ I hope Kabam analyzes the data because he’s neither here nor there.”
Then inviting us to share our thoughts. That’s why I personally framed what I was saying in the way I did, because what you were saying seemed to say “I don’t like Spider-Man, he doesn’t have good utility or use in the game”. So I wanted to share why his utility is good, and what his uses are - because there seems to be a fair bit you haven’t considered about why Spidey could actually be good.
You’ve shown us that a thing or two in his kit that myself and some others may not have been aware of before.
But that’s it.
The bottom line is that the kit is boring. It feels like it was put together on a Friday afternoon. It’s not so much about what the kit does as much as it is about the experience you have playing with Marvel’s flagship character.
I mean think about how the design went down:
Let’s design a new mechanic, call it something relevant to Spiderman, let it stack up and add debuffs, then let’s lock its potency behind a dupe and high sig.
The outcome was lame, Bittersteel, and the design was lazy. Let the numbers and comments in the thread speak for themselves.
I opened this thread hoping that there was more to learn about the champion than what I had seen on YouTube, and I wanted to see if I was the only one left wanting more or if others felt the same way.
That was the thought process.
Because the way I see it, Spider Man’s buff attempted far, far more than OG Hulk’s did. You yourself admit a new mechanic for Spidey with webbing, he has a rotation involving different specials, specific things to do.
OG Hulk is just a very, very simple kit. It’s a counter, then a damage mode, and.. that’s kinda it. Not much utility at all, just damage. It’s a great buff don’t get me wrong, he’s extremely useful and I ban a lot of Hulk’s in BGs
But his buff is “boring” when applied to your definition given here. But why do you like that, but not Spidey? It’s because of the damage and no sig reliance right? That’s why we love Hulk, and why people love him as a 7*.
But I don’t think it’s *just* being locked behind the sig, we’ve had buffs for champions where damage or utility is locked behind sig - Joe fixit quite needs the sig, rocket has a ton of utility behind his sig, so does Hawkeye. We have many champions each year that very much need their sig, and there are many 7*s that need their sig like Killmonger, Korg, Domino etc. So why is it bad for Spidey? It can’t be only this.
For the record, I don’t think it’s ok to say a buff is bad because it relies on high sig, part of this game is investment, and one part is sig levels. Does it feel bad to have a 7* champion that benefits from higher sig, yeah maybe, but can that champ still do stuff at lower sig? Yes, Spidey still has all his utility at sig 20, and while he loses some taunt duration, it doesn’t neuter him, he just has more room to grow.
I’ve tested a low sig 7* rank 1 spider man, and honestly, I’m not joking when I say I’m scared of what he could do at R2. And I would R2 a duped Spidey in a heartbeat
I’ve got 30 second takedowns of 200k healthpools, that is insane BG scores. 1 minute 15 takedowns of 600k healthpools. Even quicker if sp2s crit - which stat focus helps with.
I can share videos of this if needed, if you need some extra ammunition to feel hyped about your 7*.
I don’t mean what I’m about to say to be accusatory at all, but I’m worried that you’ve fallen a little bit for “if the damage isn’t insane, it’s bad”. Spider man has very, very good damage, but no, it’s not OG Hulk level.
I worry about that, because you’ve said OG Hulk is an example of a good buff, when he’s objectively had less changed or added than Spidey, but Spidey is a bad buff because he’s not had enough added - the real difference in my view is OG Hulk had YTers seriously hyping him because his damage is more obviously there. And when Spidey came out, people didn’t see the damage immediately, and it wasn’t as much as Hulk, so he was written off
As “how a kit feels” I actually love how it feels as spider man, it feels like you’re webbing them up then throwing a huge kick at them. Sp1 into sp2. The parry LLLM combo back off, and repeat is satisfying to pull off, the taunts are insanely powerful - anyone who complains about AI not throwing specials (me included) just needs to try Spidey with his 100% uptime on taunt. And when you cash out with Sp2, it’s scary to see the damage
How much have you played with Spidey and tested his damage, because try him in some 200-300k healthpools, try him with crit stat focus, and try the techniques I’ve suggested. See how it feels with an open mind. I’d be happy for you to PM some gameplay and give tips on it.
You seem to defend things almost like another user who just cannot be reasoned with.
Wether this is because you sort of have a role/position with them now, I don’t know, but don’t be a yes man. The buff is really weak, let’s be honest, it’s no hate aimed at anyone, it’s just a question, which the answer is yes.
Maybe it’s just your opinion, but don’t be scared to show your real opinion, sometimes that can actually help, it’s constructive criticism.
Just because I’m not quick to be angry or negative doesn’t mean I don’t ever disagree with what they do.
I also tend to direct my feedback directly to them in the CCP, since I know it will be read there instead of potentially lost on the forum.
Insinuating someone is a shill is the weakest attempt at an argument, and the quickest way to let someone know that you can’t think of another way to disagree with someone. So please, be better.
We disagree about the buff, sure, but we can still disagree in a respectful way if you put a little more effort into it.
But it does feel a bit dreary. They could have given him some animations like they did with Spider-Ham, that comic-style ‘BANG’, ‘POW’ and ‘THWIP’. Some web animations when opponents are webbed.
Also, the rotation and gameplay just isn’t satisfying. Compare it to Spider-Gwen for example, where you’re consistently weaving Heavy attacks between SP1s, to keep up the at excellent Slow debuff while you’re building up your Trap-Spider passives. And maybe the difference is that as you’re building up your Trap-Spiders your damage is slowly going up, then you reach max count and you move on to your SP2. We don’t get that with Spiderman. There isn’t that buildup, and even when you do get there sure the damage is great but it doesn’t feel like the damage loop is as rewarding as the buildup.
So it’s a lot of things. Don’t doubt me, he’s got the baseline, but reliance on dupe, sigs and synergies is not the way to design a champ.
It doesn’t feel rewarding or exciting, though it’s clear you’re making the most out of him and kudos to you.
og spidey is still mid and doesnt get used as much or at all in high tier bgs or masters war, so its a bad buff no matter how much effort or new mechanics are put in.
I think my main gripe is his reliance on not just being awakened, but being at a high sig level. If you have an awakened Spider-Man, then you have the ability to stack his web debuffs, giving you access to a -100% decelerate, a -30% suppression, and a +70% debilitate. If you don’t have him awakened, however, then you are unable to stack his web debuffs and the above values get halved. Ideally, this is something that should’ve been in his base kit, since going into a fight against unstoppable or evade with just a 50% chance to counter those mechanics just isn’t great.
Additionally, this also impacts his damage burst, since the debilitate is only 35% instead of 70%, resulting in decreased stun duration (meaning less hits with the physical vulnerability bonus) and decreased taunt duration (leading to decreased physical vulnerability during the stun). He also gets additional taunt duration based on sig level, so in order to really get the most damage out of him during that burst, he should ideally be at a high sig.
Don’t get me wrong, just because a champ relies heavily on sig ability and level doesn’t mean they’re a bad champ. It’s just that in this case it feels like a detriment. To me, the science class already has a lot of competition for awakening gems and sig stones, and Spider-Man just doesn’t feel like he’s more deserving of those resources than the other champs that need them.
This buff just felt like a disappointment, since there are clearly some really good ideas and concepts present in his kit. It just feels like they either were executed properly, or weren’t fully followed through to completion. My hope is that this acts similarly to the original Gamora buff, in that the groundwork has been laid, all that needs to be done now is to just make some minor tweaks and additions to polish up his kit.
Out of curiosity, what sort of time for each healthpool would get you impressed? Like, say Hulk gets 30 seconds for 200k, and 1min 15 on average for 5-600k. What would it take for Spidey to feel like he has damage? I’ll do it with both crits and non crits on sp2 for fairness. In terms of BGs, what sort of scores do you consider good? I’d really appreciate answers to these questions, I think it’ll provide an objective way to figure out whether you “feel” bad about the damage of the buff, or whether you have some measure to back it up.
In regards to your “feeling” on his loop, that’s fair, each champion is very subjective on damage loops. I personally find Galan extremely boring to play, and don’t like his loop. But I know people who love it. (As it happens, I don’t enjoy Gwen’s play style either - maybe there’s our disconnect lol)
I’ll agree on animations, it would have been awesome to get more. But obviously hulk didn’t get those either, so double sad
I will however disagree on reliance on dupe, sigs and synergies. I agree on 1/3, he does need the dupe. But he definitely doesn’t need high sig, it’s just very nice for him. Like I said, I’ve been testing low sig, no synergies 7* and he’s still crazily good.
And besides, I think as we see more people pull and dupe him, they’ll realise he can actually dish out really good damage, and has great utility. Remember that Juggernaut was hated initially as a buff, and people took time to realise how good he was. Not a 1:1 comparison, but the community isn’t always great at judging buffs initially.
He’ll be seen more in war in the mid-high war level, and occasionally at the highest if someone really likes him - but you know as well as I do how competitive it is in masters war.
Whether a champion gets used there is not nearly an accurate measure of how good they are.
1) 45 seconds for a 200k healthpool is still really good, over a minute and you start to scratch your head.
Considering larger healthpools, it also depends on the nodes. It wouldn’t be fair to compare a 500k HP Winter Soldier with an 8.2 Hyperion for example.
2) Winter Soldier: anything above 90 seconds and you begin to scratch your head at R4 or 7-star R1/25.
3) 8.2: anything above 135 seconds and again, you might start scratching your head.
Regarding BGs, I don’t play it at all. That sort of game mode is not my cup of tea, so I don’t think I’m qualified to provide an opinion on it.
Again, I appreciate all the thought & gameplay you put into this.
So the background for this testing.
7* Sig 20 Spider Man, stat focus is crit rate, no synergies or boosts. I show all of this in the below video.
My intention with the video is to show 6 consecutive fights, all recorded in one take so I’m not editing it to make him seem better than he is.
In the CCP there is a champ testing realm for us to provide feedback on champions with 6 generic champions (one of each class), and a ~200k version to simulate BGs, and a ~600k to simulate RoL. This is what I’m using below
I chose star lord to not have class advantage, so obviously plus/minus in your head the attack bonus.
The 6 fights will alternate 200k then 600k, then I restart and go again.
I was initially going to record 2 of each, one with crits and one without. But I thought it would be more accurate to show you consistency, because Spider Man is in the 88th percentile of crit rate champions (100th percentile being Elsa bloodstone with the highest crit rate in the game, the 1st percentile and lower being Aegon with 0 crit rate at 0 combo). Spidey is *going* to crit a lot.
Additionally, in 200k healthpools at least, the crit honestly doesn’t matter too much. You either crit and pretty much KO them, or you don’t crit and the combo afterwards KOs them. It would matter more for 300k+ HPs, but in this sort of healthpool, it’s the difference of a few seconds.
Having said that, there are both crit and non crit matches in the video. Which you can see below
If anyone else doesn’t want to watch, the TLDW is:
200k HP - rotation: Sp1 into sp2
non crit sp2 matches are about 37 seconds, when the sp2 crits it’s about 35 seconds. This is mainly because the ramp up is the same, you just have an extra few seconds of comboing the opponent
600k HP - rotation: sp1 x2, sp2 x 3
fights usually had 2 crits on sp2 and 1 non crit, lasting 1 min 27 ish. When the fight only had 1 crit, it was 1 min 38.
If anyone has specific questions about why I’m doing what I’m doing in the playstyle, please ask! I’d love to help.
The one thing I will say here, is that this is a generic test. Star lord doesn’t move much in his specials, so that’s something to bear in mind with webbing. It’s one of spidey’s flaws, but I think on the whole it’s not too bad. In 200k, there aren’t many champions who can move enough in only 2 special 1s / 1 sp2 to remove his webbing.
In longer fights, yeah you may need to apply more webbing. Could be worth going 3 sp1s, but equally I’ve found it find just using 1 bar of power to reapply if needed.
And lastly, if it would help, I could re-do this test with Hulk, and compare his times to Spidey. My guess is Hulk beats Spidey in 200k by a few seconds, but probably ties or even loses to Spidey in 600k, since Hulk’s damage drops off if he can’t finish in one cycle, whereas Spidey is more consistent once he gets going
On gameplay, very insightful stuff @BitterSteel and thanks for all this gameplay.
Would you mind telling us more about your play style? I can’t seem to understand what you were trying to do
Out of curiosity.
I'm going for one Sp1 first, because it applies the debilitate, making my taunts last longer, making my parry last longer (more taunts) and making my stun from sp2 last longer for more damage during that stun
You'll notice I'm going for a lot of LLLM combos, i've found that finishing a full combo often makes the AI turtle up (like 1:02 for example) and hold block, so to keep them throwing specials I back off after my first medium, by parrying then LLLM back off.
I'm also not really focussing on building up my taunts in preparation for the SP2 until I'm around a bar of power away. That usually lets you do 2 parries worth of taunt building, and with this lower sig, gets you 10-15 taunts depending on how fast you play it.
Then it's just throw Sp2 and hammer away during the stun for your big damage window
For the larger healthpool it's similar basics, but I'd go for 2 or 3 Sp1s first to make sure webbing is up - also in longer fights time is less likely to matter, so one extra bar of power isn't too bad. The extra debilitate also allows for more stun duration, more taunt duration and more parry duration.
There's little things too like making sure opponent is on low power when you throw Sp2, because it leads to a nice rotation of throw parry LLLM, parry LLLM Sp2, combo, then the opponent is on 2 bars of power ready to throw a special straight away because of those taunts, and you rinse and repeat.
I would make it so that during a special attack or basic attack, subsequent movements take off half as much duration as the last.
At the moment, each hit of a special, heavy, medium etc takes off the same amount of webbing, and I'm fine with champs that move more get more webbing off, but say for example a champion with 5 hits on a special throws it, (and i'm making these numbers up here), but each hit would go like this
Hit 1: 1 second duration off webbing
Hit 2: 0.5 seconds duration off webbing
Hit 3: 0.25 seconds duration off webbing
Hit 4: 0.125 seconds duration off webbing
Hit 5: 0.0625 seconds duration off webbing
Obviously wouldn't have to be that exact reduction, could be 60%, 70% etc. But I'd like to not feel wildly punished for champs moving more, hyperion, mojo, Mangog, dragon man are all made harder by moving more even though Spidey is a great counter (and still is, just obviously needs more webbing)
I ask because there were a few bits of utility you didn't know spidey had going in, and now you can see the damage potential of a 7* and it fit your description of impressive for the health pools we've spoken about. Has anything changed in your mind?
Having said that, you’ve inspired me to go on a ROL run with Crit Damage as the stat focus.
I noticed that Spidey performs especially poorly against Winter Soldier and Black Panther, probably due to class disadvantage, or high movement. The average duration of the fights was 2:45 and the average hit count was 172.
Spidey performed especially well against Black Bolt and Wolverine, because Black Bolt is suicidal and he reverses Wolverine’s regen. The average duration of the fights was 1:26 and the average hit count was 97.
In the other 7 matchups, Spidey posted a minimum fight duration of 1:44 against Captain Marvel, a maximum fight duration of 2:30 against Scarlet Witch, at an average fight duration of 2:04 minutes. Spidey posted a his lowest hit count against Vision and Scarlet Witch at 142 hits, and his lowest hit count against Juggernaut with 107 hits at an average hit count of 129.
I suppose, this is why it’s confusing. He doesn’t particularly excel against Mystics. If you look at Black Bolt and Wolverine, you might say Spidey excels against champs with many or potent buffs. But then again, this is not extensive testing.
One thing is for sure though, he sucks without his dupe.
I do think he could use a small buff and some sweet animations. Maybe a trade off for fixing the Cassie Lang bug?
I would also just remind you that Scarlet witch being slow is likely because she was applying weaknesses, fatigues, exhaustions etc and power draining - not very common in the battlerealm, so not the best test. Captain Marvel was probably the most accurate test with not much going on in the fight, maybe Vision too.
And the dupe does add some extra damage with more duration on taunts from debilitate and base duration.
If you did want to test further, definitely try him around act 8 and things like that. Find some science-y paths if you can. But yeah i agree, you do want that dupe for him to start being really useful
While i wouldn't argue with an offered buff, i really don't think he needs one. But i would definitely love some new animations if that was ever an option
Now just to dupe him then he goes R2