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BG Scoring Needs a minor Tweak

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    AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mother_Flerken said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I'm not a fan of the new scoring personally. It's screwed results up.

    It hasn't screwed results up, results are exactly as they should be based on the scoring system, you just personally don't like them as fights are settled by closer margins more often.
    No. I'm not a fan of a scoring metric that makes keeping as much Health the main objective, when it only caters to a small demographic of Players who call that skill. There are other forms of skill.
    The old scoring had 3 things you had to focus on. Not just one. You're essentially saying keeping more Health is more important than taking your Opponent down before the other person. That means pausing is a tactic that is more lucrative.
    Also, yes. The Fight margins are too tight. That's an issue for me.
    There was nothing wrong with the scoring before. I disagree with the change.
    Do you not think that by focussing less on time it allows you to make a wider group of champions viable for the game mode instead of focussing on a smaller group of champions that can do fights really fast and don’t really care about keeping health? And hence means that your knowledge of the draft and RPG counters is rewarded more by building a successful deck and choosing the right counters

    For example, before the changes, if someone placed a Dr Doom, you would be better off using a Juggernaut, super fast counter that can nuke him down while losing 5-10% health. But that’s not an RPG counter, that’s just picking someone super fast who can nuke it faster than your opponent.

    Now, it’s a smarter choice to pick quicksilver for it. He’s not fast, but he absolutely counters everything about Doom, and more often than not will have a higher average health remaining than Juggs vs Doom. A player is rewarded more for picking a good counter. In some sense, there’s a lower reliance on skill in that particular example, because you need more skill to use juggernaut vs Doom than QS. But now you’re rewarded more for your strategy.


    Regarding the pause strategy, you and I agree on that, but it doesn’t mean the scoring changes are good or bad, just that it’s a more pressing issue to finally address and stop letting players be able to cheat using it.
    Agreed. That's something I've disliked about BG. As much as I love my juggs, he's just a nuke who doesn't care about countering a champ.

    And choosing a counter isn't really the smart move if they're a slow ramp like void or quicksilver
  • Options
    AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mother_Flerken said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I'm not a fan of the new scoring personally. It's screwed results up.

    It hasn't screwed results up, results are exactly as they should be based on the scoring system, you just personally don't like them as fights are settled by closer margins more often.
    No. I'm not a fan of a scoring metric that makes keeping as much Health the main objective, when it only caters to a small demographic of Players who call that skill. There are other forms of skill.
    The old scoring had 3 things you had to focus on. Not just one. You're essentially saying keeping more Health is more important than taking your Opponent down before the other person. That means pausing is a tactic that is more lucrative.
    Also, yes. The Fight margins are too tight. That's an issue for me.
    There was nothing wrong with the scoring before. I disagree with the change.
    Do you not think that by focussing less on time it allows you to make a wider group of champions viable for the game mode instead of focussing on a smaller group of champions that can do fights really fast and don’t really care about keeping health? And hence means that your knowledge of the draft and RPG counters is rewarded more by building a successful deck and choosing the right counters

    For example, before the changes, if someone placed a Dr Doom, you would be better off using a Juggernaut, super fast counter that can nuke him down while losing 5-10% health. But that’s not an RPG counter, that’s just picking someone super fast who can nuke it faster than your opponent.

    Now, it’s a smarter choice to pick quicksilver for it. He’s not fast, but he absolutely counters everything about Doom, and more often than not will have a higher average health remaining than Juggs vs Doom. A player is rewarded more for picking a good counter. In some sense, there’s a lower reliance on skill in that particular example, because you need more skill to use juggernaut vs Doom than QS. But now you’re rewarded more for your strategy.


    Regarding the pause strategy, you and I agree on that, but it doesn’t mean the scoring changes are good or bad, just that it’s a more pressing issue to finally address and stop letting players be able to cheat using it.
    I think removing the time element removed a plethora of scenarios for a Win. It rewards people who can avoid getting hit, which is one aspect, but at the expense of those who actually down their Opponent, but lost more Health. Which makes absolutely no sense.
    Question. Do you justify someone winning who has full Health but took 2 minutes over someone who downed the Opponent in less time but has half Health? I don't.
    The time element wasn’t removed, it was reduced. Important to be accurate about these things imo.

    Absolutely I do, because it means you could throw a nuke like CGR at immortal Abom and screw the damage taken, you did it fast. That’s not skilful, that’s throwing a nuke at a champion who is objectively a bad matchup, playing bad but doing it fast.
    Then we will have to agree to disagree. There are Players who consider the only measure of skill to be not getting hit. Which is fine. When you center an entire game mode around rewarding that aspect and not rewarding the skill in choosing matchups (which goes into winning faster), then you're negating the whole process of Drafts and picks. The system was fine the way it was. It rewarded more than one definition of skill. Now it's limited to Players who are skilled with the same few God Tier Champs, and those who pride themselves on never getting hit. It decentivizes taking Damage.
    BG is the only game mode in game that cares an iota about health lost. And if it's supposed to be about drafting champs , then it should not be reduced to the AW meta of throwing CGR at anything and everything regardless of nodes and winning. That means any and any smart play you do to draft champs is meaningless if they have nukes. They don't have to care about damage taken as long as they finish the fight fast.

    Also, it's not only a very small proportion of players who care about health lost. "Full Yellow Bar" is almost a trope when assessing a players skill.
  • Options
    AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mother_Flerken said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I'm not a fan of the new scoring personally. It's screwed results up.

    It hasn't screwed results up, results are exactly as they should be based on the scoring system, you just personally don't like them as fights are settled by closer margins more often.
    No. I'm not a fan of a scoring metric that makes keeping as much Health the main objective, when it only caters to a small demographic of Players who call that skill. There are other forms of skill.
    The old scoring had 3 things you had to focus on. Not just one. You're essentially saying keeping more Health is more important than taking your Opponent down before the other person. That means pausing is a tactic that is more lucrative.
    Also, yes. The Fight margins are too tight. That's an issue for me.
    There was nothing wrong with the scoring before. I disagree with the change.
    Do you not think that by focussing less on time it allows you to make a wider group of champions viable for the game mode instead of focussing on a smaller group of champions that can do fights really fast and don’t really care about keeping health? And hence means that your knowledge of the draft and RPG counters is rewarded more by building a successful deck and choosing the right counters

    For example, before the changes, if someone placed a Dr Doom, you would be better off using a Juggernaut, super fast counter that can nuke him down while losing 5-10% health. But that’s not an RPG counter, that’s just picking someone super fast who can nuke it faster than your opponent.

    Now, it’s a smarter choice to pick quicksilver for it. He’s not fast, but he absolutely counters everything about Doom, and more often than not will have a higher average health remaining than Juggs vs Doom. A player is rewarded more for picking a good counter. In some sense, there’s a lower reliance on skill in that particular example, because you need more skill to use juggernaut vs Doom than QS. But now you’re rewarded more for your strategy.


    Regarding the pause strategy, you and I agree on that, but it doesn’t mean the scoring changes are good or bad, just that it’s a more pressing issue to finally address and stop letting players be able to cheat using it.
    I think removing the time element removed a plethora of scenarios for a Win. It rewards people who can avoid getting hit, which is one aspect, but at the expense of those who actually down their Opponent, but lost more Health. Which makes absolutely no sense.
    Question. Do you justify someone winning who has full Health but took 2 minutes over someone who downed the Opponent in less time but has half Health? I don't.
    The time element wasn’t removed, it was reduced. Important to be accurate about these things imo.

    Absolutely I do, because it means you could throw a nuke like CGR at immortal Abom and screw the damage taken, you did it fast. That’s not skilful, that’s throwing a nuke at a champion who is objectively a bad matchup, playing bad but doing it fast.
    It decentivizes taking Damage.
    As it should????
  • Options
    Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 2,237 ★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mother_Flerken said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I'm not a fan of the new scoring personally. It's screwed results up.

    It hasn't screwed results up, results are exactly as they should be based on the scoring system, you just personally don't like them as fights are settled by closer margins more often.
    No. I'm not a fan of a scoring metric that makes keeping as much Health the main objective, when it only caters to a small demographic of Players who call that skill. There are other forms of skill.
    The old scoring had 3 things you had to focus on. Not just one. You're essentially saying keeping more Health is more important than taking your Opponent down before the other person. That means pausing is a tactic that is more lucrative.
    Also, yes. The Fight margins are too tight. That's an issue for me.
    There was nothing wrong with the scoring before. I disagree with the change.
    Holy ****. i actually agree with something grounded wisdom is saying.....
  • Options
    Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 2,237 ★★★★
    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mother_Flerken said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I'm not a fan of the new scoring personally. It's screwed results up.

    It hasn't screwed results up, results are exactly as they should be based on the scoring system, you just personally don't like them as fights are settled by closer margins more often.
    No. I'm not a fan of a scoring metric that makes keeping as much Health the main objective, when it only caters to a small demographic of Players who call that skill. There are other forms of skill.
    The old scoring had 3 things you had to focus on. Not just one. You're essentially saying keeping more Health is more important than taking your Opponent down before the other person. That means pausing is a tactic that is more lucrative.
    Also, yes. The Fight margins are too tight. That's an issue for me.
    There was nothing wrong with the scoring before. I disagree with the change.
    Do you not think that by focussing less on time it allows you to make a wider group of champions viable for the game mode instead of focussing on a smaller group of champions that can do fights really fast and don’t really care about keeping health? And hence means that your knowledge of the draft and RPG counters is rewarded more by building a successful deck and choosing the right counters

    For example, before the changes, if someone placed a Dr Doom, you would be better off using a Juggernaut, super fast counter that can nuke him down while losing 5-10% health. But that’s not an RPG counter, that’s just picking someone super fast who can nuke it faster than your opponent.

    Now, it’s a smarter choice to pick quicksilver for it. He’s not fast, but he absolutely counters everything about Doom, and more often than not will have a higher average health remaining than Juggs vs Doom. A player is rewarded more for picking a good counter. In some sense, there’s a lower reliance on skill in that particular example, because you need more skill to use juggernaut vs Doom than QS. But now you’re rewarded more for your strategy.


    Regarding the pause strategy, you and I agree on that, but it doesn’t mean the scoring changes are good or bad, just that it’s a more pressing issue to finally address and stop letting players be able to cheat using it.
    I think removing the time element removed a plethora of scenarios for a Win. It rewards people who can avoid getting hit, which is one aspect, but at the expense of those who actually down their Opponent, but lost more Health. Which makes absolutely no sense.
    Question. Do you justify someone winning who has full Health but took 2 minutes over someone who downed the Opponent in less time but has half Health? I don't.
    The time element wasn’t removed, it was reduced. Important to be accurate about these things imo.

    Absolutely I do, because it means you could throw a nuke like CGR at immortal Abom and screw the damage taken, you did it fast. That’s not skilful, that’s throwing a nuke at a champion who is objectively a bad matchup, playing bad but doing it fast.
    Then we will have to agree to disagree. There are Players who consider the only measure of skill to be not getting hit. Which is fine. When you center an entire game mode around rewarding that aspect and not rewarding the skill in choosing matchups (which goes into winning faster), then you're negating the whole process of Drafts and picks. The system was fine the way it was. It rewarded more than one definition of skill. Now it's limited to Players who are skilled with the same few God Tier Champs, and those who pride themselves on never getting hit. It decentivizes taking Damage.
    Incentivising taking damage sounds like the complete opposite of skilled play.

    Choosing matchups is completely centred around not taking damage and doing matches well and fast. Like my example before choosing juggernaut for a doom fight is not more RPG based than choosing QS for it. The draft phase has never been more important because before you could just use Jugs, CGR, ghost and nuke everything without skill or draft knowledge. Now you need to pick better options
    there is a lot of things at play.
    and yes it is a complex metric to definitively decide who is best.
    there are likely pros and cons to almost any system that kabam decide to use.

    i totally agree with some points on both sides.
    personally i find that this season the changes have cost me more fights than i have won due to it.
    but there are both fights i have won this season i would have lost last season and fights i have lost that i would have won last season.
    so it is most certainly swings and roundabouts.

    i feel maybe there is some middle ground that better rewards a kill over a time out,
    maybe a better balance of HP to time i am not sure.
    but certainly you are correct that in a game that is based around so many champs with sooo many abilities that having proper counters is a big factor.
    the weaker your roster then yes you should have a disadvantage.
    you should not just be able to rely on sunspot, cgr, hulk, juggs etc and win everything.

    but i also don't think the current scoring system is perfect.
    i am happy to see them tweak it further and maybe a combination where there is a small bonus for kill that is independant of time, i dunno exactly.
  • Options
    AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:


    "Skill"

    I personally don’t view your match up as having been a great showcase of skill.

    If you’d avoided being hit, you’d have had an equally quick matchup but more health. I’m not sure how your fight shows enough superior skill to beat the opponent.

    I’m much more impressed with the other person in this fight personally, he performed better and won because of it.

    (This isn’t a “you suck” post, I really don’t intend it to be that.)

    You got hit in your fight, which opened up the door for the opponent to take only 50% longer than you but because they used their skill to avoid getting hit or losing health, they won.
    We disagree on what constitutes as skill. Obviously we all try not to lose Health. Saying that's the only measure of skill is one-sided. Taking the Match down faster is another measure. That's the whole point of having a time metric. Now it's just a measure of who is fortunate enough not to have a lagging device and cooperating AI. Which I won't get into here, but the AI needs revisited.
    I don't think bringing lagging device is relevant here, scoring cannot be adjusted to account for bugs and whatnot. If anything, lags and connection issues cause lose of time and that means time should matter less. I routinely loose 5 seconds due to connection issues. Now with the change that doesn't matter as much as it did before
  • Options
    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,262 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    Coppin said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Coppin said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:


    "Skill"

    I personally don’t view your match up as having been a great showcase of skill.

    If you’d avoided being hit, you’d have had an equally quick matchup but more health. I’m not sure how your fight shows enough superior skill to beat the opponent.

    I’m much more impressed with the other person in this fight personally, he performed better and won because of it.

    (This isn’t a “you suck” post, I really don’t intend it to be that.)

    You got hit in your fight, which opened up the door for the opponent to take only 50% longer than you but because they used their skill to avoid getting hit or losing health, they won.
    We disagree on what constitutes as skill. Obviously we all try not to lose Health. Saying that's the only measure of skill is one-sided. Taking the Match down faster is another measure. That's the whole point of having a time metric. Now it's just a measure of who is fortunate enough not to have a lagging device and cooperating AI. Which I won't get into here, but the AI needs revisited.
    When did I say health is the only measure of skill?

    Health is one side, time is another. You showed skill and got some points for your quicker fight, but he made up for it with more health by using his skill.

    This is about a ratio of points for health:time,
    You’re portraying this as all about health when it’s really not, and it’s quite a disingenuous point you keep making. Health is more important yes, because to me, Kabam and a lot of people, keeping your health is a greater measure of skill and RPG knowledge than a quick fight. Anyone can throw CGR at a fight and do it in 30 seconds, but to keep your health? You need to draft the right counter and then play it smart.
    I don't recall Kabam specifically saying that keeping more Health is a greater measure of skill.
    Its the same reason they stopped revive farming...which i think you supported...
    Carelessly doing a fight for a fast kill is in a way equivalent to revive spamming...
    Literally two different subjects. That's a reach of a comparison.
    If that was a fight on a path you would have to heal up or spam a revive cause u went for the fast kill...
    The other guy has a very healthy doom for the next fight 🤷
    It's not. It's a 2 minute comparison of 3 vs. 3, and there are more aspects than just Health remaining.
    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:


    "Skill"

    I personally don’t view your match up as having been a great showcase of skill.

    If you’d avoided being hit, you’d have had an equally quick matchup but more health. I’m not sure how your fight shows enough superior skill to beat the opponent.

    I’m much more impressed with the other person in this fight personally, he performed better and won because of it.

    (This isn’t a “you suck” post, I really don’t intend it to be that.)

    You got hit in your fight, which opened up the door for the opponent to take only 50% longer than you but because they used their skill to avoid getting hit or losing health, they won.
    We disagree on what constitutes as skill. Obviously we all try not to lose Health. Saying that's the only measure of skill is one-sided. Taking the Match down faster is another measure. That's the whole point of having a time metric. Now it's just a measure of who is fortunate enough not to have a lagging device and cooperating AI. Which I won't get into here, but the AI needs revisited.
    When did I say health is the only measure of skill?

    Health is one side, time is another. You showed skill and got some points for your quicker fight, but he made up for it with more health by using his skill.

    This is about a ratio of points for health:time,
    You’re portraying this as all about health when it’s really not, and it’s quite a disingenuous point you keep making. Health is more important yes, because to me, Kabam and a lot of people, keeping your health is a greater measure of skill and RPG knowledge than a quick fight. Anyone can throw CGR at a fight and do it in 30 seconds, but to keep your health? You need to draft the right counter and then play it smart.
    I don't recall Kabam specifically saying that keeping more Health is a greater measure of skill.
    Kabam changed the scoring to make health more important. Kabam want the scoring system to represent skill in RPG drafts and in fighting well. These are facts.

    It’s not a logical leap to realise this means that keeping health is a greater test of skill in RPG drafts and playing. If they thought doing fights faster was a greater test of skill, they would make it more important.
    We don't know why Kabam changed it. I'd wager they changed it in part because Players requested the change.
    There was a lot of conversation about it in the CCP, this was the main reason:

    Defenders that stalled were too strong. Most of the time if someone placed a Nick Fury, Rintrah or Hulkling, they dragged the fight out and because people weren’t dying at the top, it meant whoever placed the stall defender usually won - because it was less about how well you fought, it was more about who had the slower defender to take down.

    By making time matter less, you put the emphasis on the skill of the player by asking them to keep more of their health. Because no matter how skilled you are, 250k health Rintrah, or two 200k lives of Nick fury takes longer. And it allows someone who brought a CGR, or a juggernaut against an unideal matchup and lost 30-50% but did it in 30 seconds could beat someone doing a fight in 100 seconds with 100% health.

    Now the focus of the fight is more on attacker health, so that if your opponent places a stall defender you still have a chance.

    This isn’t my opinion, but you’re wrong that we don’t know why Kabam changed it. They even said as much in the post that announced the change

    “We’ve noticed a large trend of time being the defining factor in top-tier games and, as a result, defenders that extend the fight being consistently picked.

    We don’t want to shift things too much and still want time to be a source of points but want the main focus to be winning the fight in the best possible condition.”

  • Options
    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,262 ★★★★★
    Oh, and it wasn’t changed because players requested it, it was changed because of the data @GroundedWisdom
  • Options
    xLunatiXxxLunatiXx Posts: 1,283 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:


    "Skill"

    Imagine saying "skill" claiming you showed the most of it while you lost 1/3rd of your hp in a perfect matchup and your opponent didn't have such matchup lmao please take a time off
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,384 ★★★★★
    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Coppin said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Coppin said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:


    "Skill"

    I personally don’t view your match up as having been a great showcase of skill.

    If you’d avoided being hit, you’d have had an equally quick matchup but more health. I’m not sure how your fight shows enough superior skill to beat the opponent.

    I’m much more impressed with the other person in this fight personally, he performed better and won because of it.

    (This isn’t a “you suck” post, I really don’t intend it to be that.)

    You got hit in your fight, which opened up the door for the opponent to take only 50% longer than you but because they used their skill to avoid getting hit or losing health, they won.
    We disagree on what constitutes as skill. Obviously we all try not to lose Health. Saying that's the only measure of skill is one-sided. Taking the Match down faster is another measure. That's the whole point of having a time metric. Now it's just a measure of who is fortunate enough not to have a lagging device and cooperating AI. Which I won't get into here, but the AI needs revisited.
    When did I say health is the only measure of skill?

    Health is one side, time is another. You showed skill and got some points for your quicker fight, but he made up for it with more health by using his skill.

    This is about a ratio of points for health:time,
    You’re portraying this as all about health when it’s really not, and it’s quite a disingenuous point you keep making. Health is more important yes, because to me, Kabam and a lot of people, keeping your health is a greater measure of skill and RPG knowledge than a quick fight. Anyone can throw CGR at a fight and do it in 30 seconds, but to keep your health? You need to draft the right counter and then play it smart.
    I don't recall Kabam specifically saying that keeping more Health is a greater measure of skill.
    Its the same reason they stopped revive farming...which i think you supported...
    Carelessly doing a fight for a fast kill is in a way equivalent to revive spamming...
    Literally two different subjects. That's a reach of a comparison.
    If that was a fight on a path you would have to heal up or spam a revive cause u went for the fast kill...
    The other guy has a very healthy doom for the next fight 🤷
    It's not. It's a 2 minute comparison of 3 vs. 3, and there are more aspects than just Health remaining.
    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:


    "Skill"

    I personally don’t view your match up as having been a great showcase of skill.

    If you’d avoided being hit, you’d have had an equally quick matchup but more health. I’m not sure how your fight shows enough superior skill to beat the opponent.

    I’m much more impressed with the other person in this fight personally, he performed better and won because of it.

    (This isn’t a “you suck” post, I really don’t intend it to be that.)

    You got hit in your fight, which opened up the door for the opponent to take only 50% longer than you but because they used their skill to avoid getting hit or losing health, they won.
    We disagree on what constitutes as skill. Obviously we all try not to lose Health. Saying that's the only measure of skill is one-sided. Taking the Match down faster is another measure. That's the whole point of having a time metric. Now it's just a measure of who is fortunate enough not to have a lagging device and cooperating AI. Which I won't get into here, but the AI needs revisited.
    When did I say health is the only measure of skill?

    Health is one side, time is another. You showed skill and got some points for your quicker fight, but he made up for it with more health by using his skill.

    This is about a ratio of points for health:time,
    You’re portraying this as all about health when it’s really not, and it’s quite a disingenuous point you keep making. Health is more important yes, because to me, Kabam and a lot of people, keeping your health is a greater measure of skill and RPG knowledge than a quick fight. Anyone can throw CGR at a fight and do it in 30 seconds, but to keep your health? You need to draft the right counter and then play it smart.
    I don't recall Kabam specifically saying that keeping more Health is a greater measure of skill.
    Kabam changed the scoring to make health more important. Kabam want the scoring system to represent skill in RPG drafts and in fighting well. These are facts.

    It’s not a logical leap to realise this means that keeping health is a greater test of skill in RPG drafts and playing. If they thought doing fights faster was a greater test of skill, they would make it more important.
    We don't know why Kabam changed it. I'd wager they changed it in part because Players requested the change.
    There was a lot of conversation about it in the CCP, this was the main reason:

    Defenders that stalled were too strong. Most of the time if someone placed a Nick Fury, Rintrah or Hulkling, they dragged the fight out and because people weren’t dying at the top, it meant whoever placed the stall defender usually won - because it was less about how well you fought, it was more about who had the slower defender to take down.

    By making time matter less, you put the emphasis on the skill of the player by asking them to keep more of their health. Because no matter how skilled you are, 250k health Rintrah, or two 200k lives of Nick fury takes longer. And it allows someone who brought a CGR, or a juggernaut against an unideal matchup and lost 30-50% but did it in 30 seconds could beat someone doing a fight in 100 seconds with 100% health.

    Now the focus of the fight is more on attacker health, so that if your opponent places a stall defender you still have a chance.

    This isn’t my opinion, but you’re wrong that we don’t know why Kabam changed it. They even said as much in the post that announced the change

    “We’ve noticed a large trend of time being the defining factor in top-tier games and, as a result, defenders that extend the fight being consistently picked.

    We don’t want to shift things too much and still want time to be a source of points but want the main focus to be winning the fight in the best possible condition.”

    I disagree with the change. I don't care how many CCP agree with it.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,384 ★★★★★
    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:


    "Skill"

    No offense but if someone managed to take down Moleman using Doom, (shock immune, incinerates will be shrugged) in just 20 seconds more than you with a dream matchup, while losing significantly less health than you, that IS skill
    I get the point. It was a bad example. It's been mentioned.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,384 ★★★★★
    Graves_3 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Coppin said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Coppin said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:


    "Skill"

    I personally don’t view your match up as having been a great showcase of skill.

    If you’d avoided being hit, you’d have had an equally quick matchup but more health. I’m not sure how your fight shows enough superior skill to beat the opponent.

    I’m much more impressed with the other person in this fight personally, he performed better and won because of it.

    (This isn’t a “you suck” post, I really don’t intend it to be that.)

    You got hit in your fight, which opened up the door for the opponent to take only 50% longer than you but because they used their skill to avoid getting hit or losing health, they won.
    We disagree on what constitutes as skill. Obviously we all try not to lose Health. Saying that's the only measure of skill is one-sided. Taking the Match down faster is another measure. That's the whole point of having a time metric. Now it's just a measure of who is fortunate enough not to have a lagging device and cooperating AI. Which I won't get into here, but the AI needs revisited.
    When did I say health is the only measure of skill?

    Health is one side, time is another. You showed skill and got some points for your quicker fight, but he made up for it with more health by using his skill.

    This is about a ratio of points for health:time,
    You’re portraying this as all about health when it’s really not, and it’s quite a disingenuous point you keep making. Health is more important yes, because to me, Kabam and a lot of people, keeping your health is a greater measure of skill and RPG knowledge than a quick fight. Anyone can throw CGR at a fight and do it in 30 seconds, but to keep your health? You need to draft the right counter and then play it smart.
    I don't recall Kabam specifically saying that keeping more Health is a greater measure of skill.
    Its the same reason they stopped revive farming...which i think you supported...
    Carelessly doing a fight for a fast kill is in a way equivalent to revive spamming...
    Literally two different subjects. That's a reach of a comparison.
    If that was a fight on a path you would have to heal up or spam a revive cause u went for the fast kill...
    The other guy has a very healthy doom for the next fight 🤷
    It's not. It's a 2 minute comparison of 3 vs. 3, and there are more aspects than just Health remaining.
    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:


    "Skill"

    I personally don’t view your match up as having been a great showcase of skill.

    If you’d avoided being hit, you’d have had an equally quick matchup but more health. I’m not sure how your fight shows enough superior skill to beat the opponent.

    I’m much more impressed with the other person in this fight personally, he performed better and won because of it.

    (This isn’t a “you suck” post, I really don’t intend it to be that.)

    You got hit in your fight, which opened up the door for the opponent to take only 50% longer than you but because they used their skill to avoid getting hit or losing health, they won.
    We disagree on what constitutes as skill. Obviously we all try not to lose Health. Saying that's the only measure of skill is one-sided. Taking the Match down faster is another measure. That's the whole point of having a time metric. Now it's just a measure of who is fortunate enough not to have a lagging device and cooperating AI. Which I won't get into here, but the AI needs revisited.
    When did I say health is the only measure of skill?

    Health is one side, time is another. You showed skill and got some points for your quicker fight, but he made up for it with more health by using his skill.

    This is about a ratio of points for health:time,
    You’re portraying this as all about health when it’s really not, and it’s quite a disingenuous point you keep making. Health is more important yes, because to me, Kabam and a lot of people, keeping your health is a greater measure of skill and RPG knowledge than a quick fight. Anyone can throw CGR at a fight and do it in 30 seconds, but to keep your health? You need to draft the right counter and then play it smart.
    I don't recall Kabam specifically saying that keeping more Health is a greater measure of skill.
    Kabam changed the scoring to make health more important. Kabam want the scoring system to represent skill in RPG drafts and in fighting well. These are facts.

    It’s not a logical leap to realise this means that keeping health is a greater test of skill in RPG drafts and playing. If they thought doing fights faster was a greater test of skill, they would make it more important.
    We don't know why Kabam changed it. I'd wager they changed it in part because Players requested the change.
    There was a lot of conversation about it in the CCP, this was the main reason:

    Defenders that stalled were too strong. Most of the time if someone placed a Nick Fury, Rintrah or Hulkling, they dragged the fight out and because people weren’t dying at the top, it meant whoever placed the stall defender usually won - because it was less about how well you fought, it was more about who had the slower defender to take down.

    By making time matter less, you put the emphasis on the skill of the player by asking them to keep more of their health. Because no matter how skilled you are, 250k health Rintrah, or two 200k lives of Nick fury takes longer. And it allows someone who brought a CGR, or a juggernaut against an unideal matchup and lost 30-50% but did it in 30 seconds could beat someone doing a fight in 100 seconds with 100% health.

    Now the focus of the fight is more on attacker health, so that if your opponent places a stall defender you still have a chance.

    This isn’t my opinion, but you’re wrong that we don’t know why Kabam changed it. They even said as much in the post that announced the change

    “We’ve noticed a large trend of time being the defining factor in top-tier games and, as a result, defenders that extend the fight being consistently picked.

    We don’t want to shift things too much and still want time to be a source of points but want the main focus to be winning the fight in the best possible condition.”

    I disagree with the change. I don't care how many CCP agree with it.
    Looks like you have stand your ground mastery enabled.
    Well yes. I miscalculated my example and had egg on my face. That's fine.
    I still don't agree with changing the scoring to make the majority focus on how much Health you keep. That narrows the window too tightly, and yes. Bugs are a factor. Although you can't design the game around them, they add to the difficulty of a perfect Fight.
    My main points are that it adds needless difficulty to an already difficult mode, and it narrows the possibility of progress to a specific set of Players. You have Unstoppable every few seconds, AI that is just over-the-top, Champs that have Abilities that give another layer, and a 2-minute timer. Who the hell wants to make it MORE difficult?
    Then there's the narrowing factor. I could understand if this was the Battlerealm Brawl, or even implemented in the GC. Making that the metric althroughout the competition is....I'm going to say the word, oh God....elitist. You're handing the competition to the Players who pride themselves on losing as little Health as possible and call that skill, at the detriment of Players who play to get the Champ down no matter what, and other game modes encourage the KO above anything.
  • Options
    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,262 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Coppin said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Coppin said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:


    "Skill"

    I personally don’t view your match up as having been a great showcase of skill.

    If you’d avoided being hit, you’d have had an equally quick matchup but more health. I’m not sure how your fight shows enough superior skill to beat the opponent.

    I’m much more impressed with the other person in this fight personally, he performed better and won because of it.

    (This isn’t a “you suck” post, I really don’t intend it to be that.)

    You got hit in your fight, which opened up the door for the opponent to take only 50% longer than you but because they used their skill to avoid getting hit or losing health, they won.
    We disagree on what constitutes as skill. Obviously we all try not to lose Health. Saying that's the only measure of skill is one-sided. Taking the Match down faster is another measure. That's the whole point of having a time metric. Now it's just a measure of who is fortunate enough not to have a lagging device and cooperating AI. Which I won't get into here, but the AI needs revisited.
    When did I say health is the only measure of skill?

    Health is one side, time is another. You showed skill and got some points for your quicker fight, but he made up for it with more health by using his skill.

    This is about a ratio of points for health:time,
    You’re portraying this as all about health when it’s really not, and it’s quite a disingenuous point you keep making. Health is more important yes, because to me, Kabam and a lot of people, keeping your health is a greater measure of skill and RPG knowledge than a quick fight. Anyone can throw CGR at a fight and do it in 30 seconds, but to keep your health? You need to draft the right counter and then play it smart.
    I don't recall Kabam specifically saying that keeping more Health is a greater measure of skill.
    Its the same reason they stopped revive farming...which i think you supported...
    Carelessly doing a fight for a fast kill is in a way equivalent to revive spamming...
    Literally two different subjects. That's a reach of a comparison.
    If that was a fight on a path you would have to heal up or spam a revive cause u went for the fast kill...
    The other guy has a very healthy doom for the next fight 🤷
    It's not. It's a 2 minute comparison of 3 vs. 3, and there are more aspects than just Health remaining.
    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:


    "Skill"

    I personally don’t view your match up as having been a great showcase of skill.

    If you’d avoided being hit, you’d have had an equally quick matchup but more health. I’m not sure how your fight shows enough superior skill to beat the opponent.

    I’m much more impressed with the other person in this fight personally, he performed better and won because of it.

    (This isn’t a “you suck” post, I really don’t intend it to be that.)

    You got hit in your fight, which opened up the door for the opponent to take only 50% longer than you but because they used their skill to avoid getting hit or losing health, they won.
    We disagree on what constitutes as skill. Obviously we all try not to lose Health. Saying that's the only measure of skill is one-sided. Taking the Match down faster is another measure. That's the whole point of having a time metric. Now it's just a measure of who is fortunate enough not to have a lagging device and cooperating AI. Which I won't get into here, but the AI needs revisited.
    When did I say health is the only measure of skill?

    Health is one side, time is another. You showed skill and got some points for your quicker fight, but he made up for it with more health by using his skill.

    This is about a ratio of points for health:time,
    You’re portraying this as all about health when it’s really not, and it’s quite a disingenuous point you keep making. Health is more important yes, because to me, Kabam and a lot of people, keeping your health is a greater measure of skill and RPG knowledge than a quick fight. Anyone can throw CGR at a fight and do it in 30 seconds, but to keep your health? You need to draft the right counter and then play it smart.
    I don't recall Kabam specifically saying that keeping more Health is a greater measure of skill.
    Kabam changed the scoring to make health more important. Kabam want the scoring system to represent skill in RPG drafts and in fighting well. These are facts.

    It’s not a logical leap to realise this means that keeping health is a greater test of skill in RPG drafts and playing. If they thought doing fights faster was a greater test of skill, they would make it more important.
    We don't know why Kabam changed it. I'd wager they changed it in part because Players requested the change.
    There was a lot of conversation about it in the CCP, this was the main reason:

    Defenders that stalled were too strong. Most of the time if someone placed a Nick Fury, Rintrah or Hulkling, they dragged the fight out and because people weren’t dying at the top, it meant whoever placed the stall defender usually won - because it was less about how well you fought, it was more about who had the slower defender to take down.

    By making time matter less, you put the emphasis on the skill of the player by asking them to keep more of their health. Because no matter how skilled you are, 250k health Rintrah, or two 200k lives of Nick fury takes longer. And it allows someone who brought a CGR, or a juggernaut against an unideal matchup and lost 30-50% but did it in 30 seconds could beat someone doing a fight in 100 seconds with 100% health.

    Now the focus of the fight is more on attacker health, so that if your opponent places a stall defender you still have a chance.

    This isn’t my opinion, but you’re wrong that we don’t know why Kabam changed it. They even said as much in the post that announced the change

    “We’ve noticed a large trend of time being the defining factor in top-tier games and, as a result, defenders that extend the fight being consistently picked.

    We don’t want to shift things too much and still want time to be a source of points but want the main focus to be winning the fight in the best possible condition.”

    I disagree with the change. I don't care how many CCP agree with it.
    That’s not what I said. I’m telling you Kabam’s reason for changing it as they have told you.

    “We don’t know why Kabam changed it”

    “Here is an explanation from kabam on why they changed it”

    If you disagree, that’s fine, but my point is not “we’re the CCP and we’re right”, my point is you are demonstrably wrong in your statement that kabam hasn’t told us why they changed it.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,384 ★★★★★
    Now that I think of it, maybe that is part of setting things up for the Brawl, and what they're looking at. Which I understand, but I'd still suggest keeping the old scoring in the VT and using the GC to test Players further.
  • Options
    Graves_3Graves_3 Posts: 1,375 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    Now that I think of it, maybe that is part of setting things up for the Brawl, and what they're looking at. Which I understand, but I'd still suggest keeping the old scoring in the VT and using the GC to test Players further.

    At this point of time I would suggest just sending everyone 45k EM in an in game mail and start everyone in GC. It will make kabams life much easier.
  • Options
    HungaryHippoHungaryHippo Posts: 826 ★★★★
    Of course people are going to pause more. Accidentally push them to SP3? Pause and hope for the best.

    The time bonus is good for kills but only when you have very close matches. Maybe they should take the 5k that was removed and make it a kill bonus but who knows what unintended consequences that would have…

    It’s hard to figure this out.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,384 ★★★★★
    Graves_3 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Now that I think of it, maybe that is part of setting things up for the Brawl, and what they're looking at. Which I understand, but I'd still suggest keeping the old scoring in the VT and using the GC to test Players further.

    At this point of time I would suggest just sending everyone 45k EM in an in game mail and start everyone in GC. It will make kabams life much easier.
    That's not what I'm suggesting.
  • Options
    BigBlueOxBigBlueOx Posts: 1,649 ★★★★★
    HungaryHippo said:

    Of course people are going to pause more. Accidentally push them to SP3? Pause and hope for the best.

    The time bonus is good for kills but only when you have very close matches. Maybe they should take the 5k that was removed and make it a kill bonus but who knows what unintended consequences that would have…

    It’s hard to figure this out.

    Ugh they need to implement a degen for using the pause
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