Let's Chat About Defender AI - Current state, behind the scenes, upcoming changes

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  • Suros_moonSuros_moon Member Posts: 476 ★★★
    ahmynuts said:

    Interesting. One question that is simply not being addressed is as follows:

    The AI has showcased a RECENT ability to do the following

    - Parry attacks consistently
    - Chain combos into specials
    - Light intercept

    None of these should be the result of “random noise” in the distribution because all these things have existed since the game’s conception but have only just become a problem. These are improvements to the decision making process of the AI. What accounts for their INCREASED precision and consistency?

    For anyone unfamiliar with what randomness looks like look up sampling from a gaussian distribution. The key point is that (centered around some mean) the values jump around peaks and valleys. It doesn’t plateau. The AI has peaked, REMAINED at this high and plateaued there for at least a year. If what you mean by “random” is massive weight given to certain actions/patterns with some nonzero probability of throwing specials at random increments then this presentation is dubious at best and a purposeful skirting of the actual question at hand at worse. Why has the randomness evolved into CLEVERNESS. The AI reacts BETTER than it used to

    Them existing since the inception of the game has nothing to do with anything. Kabam is constantly updating, adding, and changing things to which they are saying has impacted some kind of behavior behind the scenes that they themselves didn't know about. Think of all the sh*t added, changed, and updated this past year or so. It's been a big year I can see it messing with stuff.

    As for your poor math example. You can take into the account the people who rarely feel like the AI is busted (valleys), people who sometimes feel like the AI is off (mean), and the people constantly complaining something is wrong (peak) it's ever shifting and not always at those points per player
    When things are added has everything to do with this claim. They are not utilizing new tools we havent seen before, they are suddenly incorporating tools they hadn’t been PRIVY to prior to the past year or so. Thats not just some unaccounted for randomness, its an improvement in the discernment of what actions OUGHT to go where. Not even close to the same thing.

    I want you to do something relatively simple: Look at some footage of BG games and compare that to early act gameplay from a few years ago. The reason you think the example is poor is because you graphed “complaints about AI” in your head (which is always going to be centered around some random distribution of whiners and content players) instead of “Performance of AI” or “Tendency to Choose favorable decisions” or “Complexity of Action Selection” all of which have STRICTLY trended upwards.
  • ahmynutsahmynuts Member Posts: 7,529 ★★★★★

    ahmynuts said:

    Interesting. One question that is simply not being addressed is as follows:

    The AI has showcased a RECENT ability to do the following

    - Parry attacks consistently
    - Chain combos into specials
    - Light intercept

    None of these should be the result of “random noise” in the distribution because all these things have existed since the game’s conception but have only just become a problem. These are improvements to the decision making process of the AI. What accounts for their INCREASED precision and consistency?

    For anyone unfamiliar with what randomness looks like look up sampling from a gaussian distribution. The key point is that (centered around some mean) the values jump around peaks and valleys. It doesn’t plateau. The AI has peaked, REMAINED at this high and plateaued there for at least a year. If what you mean by “random” is massive weight given to certain actions/patterns with some nonzero probability of throwing specials at random increments then this presentation is dubious at best and a purposeful skirting of the actual question at hand at worse. Why has the randomness evolved into CLEVERNESS. The AI reacts BETTER than it used to

    Them existing since the inception of the game has nothing to do with anything. Kabam is constantly updating, adding, and changing things to which they are saying has impacted some kind of behavior behind the scenes that they themselves didn't know about. Think of all the sh*t added, changed, and updated this past year or so. It's been a big year I can see it messing with stuff.

    As for your poor math example. You can take into the account the people who rarely feel like the AI is busted (valleys), people who sometimes feel like the AI is off (mean), and the people constantly complaining something is wrong (peak) it's ever shifting and not always at those points per player
    When things are added has everything to do with this claim. They are not utilizing new tools we havent seen before, they are suddenly incorporating tools they hadn’t been PRIVY to prior to the past year or so. Thats not just some unaccounted for randomness, its an improvement in the discernment of what actions OUGHT to go where. Not even close to the same thing.

    I want you to do something relatively simple: Look at some footage of BG games and compare that to early act gameplay from a few years ago. The reason you think the example is poor is because you graphed “complaints about AI” in your head (which is always going to be centered around some random distribution of whiners and content players) instead of “Performance of AI” or “Tendency to Choose favorable decisions” or “Complexity of Action Selection” all of which have STRICTLY trended upwards.
    You just disproved your own point in your own message lmfao
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  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Member Posts: 9,264 ★★★★★

    XSquad said:

    I’m sorry but I am calling BS in the randomness of it. You have champs like Chavez and Mysterio spamming heavies from across the screen and it just so happens to be a major part of their kits. Nick fury will throw sp1 into blocks but it takes forever to get him to throw his sp2. These are intended and not random.

    Different champs have different biases. But it’s still random. Chavez has a *chance* to throw a heavy, she sometimes doesn’t but often does. It’s just a higher chance compared to Spider Gwen for example. That doesn’t mean neither are random.

    You’re mixing up “random chance” with “the same chance”

    Kabam have never said that every champ has the same AI profile. They still all roll a dice, but some are rolling different ones.
    If you manually adjust the weights for certain AI thats literally AI manipulation (what else could that phrase even mean?).The post is claiming that hidden layers in the engine are affecting the AI which is markedly different
    If you can find where Kabam said every champ has the same AI profile you might have a point. Until then, unfortunately not so much
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,560 ★★★★★

    OK, I guess NOOOOOW it's OK to admit that conspiracy theory was true. Another one off the "nothing have changed" crews list.

    To the best of my knowledge, they've never said nothing has changed. They've said they never made changes to the AI. There's a difference.
  • SmasherM86SmasherM86 Member Posts: 78
    IT NEEDS FIXING, The speed of fights is beyond human capabilities and the most annoying thing is baiting specials and you Jerk AI won't through it and the moment SP3 is reached its immediately thrown, this staff are more than convincing for me to leave the game after many years of play.....
  • HungaryHippoHungaryHippo Member Posts: 1,023 ★★★★

    OK, I guess NOOOOOW it's OK to admit that conspiracy theory was true. Another one off the "nothing have changed" crews list.

    To the best of my knowledge, they've never said nothing has changed. They've said they never made changes to the AI. There's a difference.
    I’m talking about the posters on this sub who have routinely gaslit the rest of posters here saying that the AI has never changed.
  • MrTicTac19992008MrTicTac19992008 Member Posts: 604 ★★★
    So certain champs don't fight differently? Nobody is believing this. So Msyterio and Chavez will stop throwing heavy attacks majority of the time? on Flipside, Thing will no longer go defensive?
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Member Posts: 2,392 ★★★★
    edited October 2023

    XSquad said:

    I’m sorry but I am calling BS in the randomness of it. You have champs like Chavez and Mysterio spamming heavies from across the screen and it just so happens to be a major part of their kits. Nick fury will throw sp1 into blocks but it takes forever to get him to throw his sp2. These are intended and not random.

    Different champs have different biases. But it’s still random. Chavez has a *chance* to throw a heavy, she sometimes doesn’t but often does. It’s just a higher chance compared to Spider Gwen for example. That doesn’t mean neither are random.

    You’re mixing up “random chance” with “the same chance”

    Kabam have never said that every champ has the same AI profile. They still all roll a dice, but some are rolling different ones.
    If you manually adjust the weights for certain AI thats literally AI manipulation (what else could that phrase even mean?).The post is claiming that hidden layers in the engine are affecting the AI which is markedly different
    If you can find where Kabam said every champ has the same AI profile you might have a point. Until then, unfortunately not so much
    BWHAHAHA. Do you know what “randomly generated weights” means?
    Do you?

    It doesn’t mean kabam decided oh let’s make this weight to block this random number and then stuck to it. It means that any given champion can have a chance to do something assigned to them.

    Trying to frame Kabam creating their game as AI manipulation is one of the takes of all time, I’ll give you that.
    yep its literally how coding works for anything.

    every champ has a fully random chance to throw a heavy.
    if champ rolls a dice to decide if to heavy or not.
    eg.
    lets say all chances use a d20 (20 sided dice)
    heavybias="1-10"
    where 1 means thy have a low chance to heavy, say 1 in 20 chance
    and 10 means they have a high chance, say 15-20


    what this means is that every champ has the set randomness in their profile, but has a bias set so that they play more inline with what their abilities are.
    call it "rigged" all you want, but its just a standard bias. and it makes sense that it would be used.

    they would do this without changing anything at all in the AI.
    the AI would do the exact same thing.
    particular biases would be set in the champs abilities.

    people are confusing "changing the AI"
    with champs having fight style preferences.

    the AI would have for example a set chance to heavy, every interaction where the AI could potentially throw a heavy a dice would be rolled to decide if it throws a heavy or not.
    base would be say 1, 6, 12, 18 = yes and the rest = no.
    a heavy bias would be set in the champ and say for mordo 2,3,8,9,13,19,17 also = yes.
    for example.
    or it could be
    rolla a d20
    if result is above 16 then heavy.
    mordo has a multipler of 2, which doubles his chance to heavy.
    so if the d20 returns an 8, mordos multiple comes in after that and acts as if it was a 16 therefore does a heavy.

    there is many ways to write this but would be biases set in the champ that controls the way the AI is run.
    not any change to the AI itself.
    people who understand coding will get this.
    those that don't well it shows they will not understand this.

    when i was coding in games take loading a train.
    there is a base loading speed that applies to every train, unless a value is specified in each train.
    so when you code a train it loads at a speed of say 10tonne per second.
    however if you add a line of code into the train
    loadingspeed=20 it will now load at 20tonne per second
    loadingspeed=5 it will now load at 5tonne per second
    nothing here changes the AI at all. it just adds something that makes a difference for the one vehicle.
    the base AI is still the same.

    it is doing things like this is how the champs can play a way that suits the champs.
    otherwise game would be too boring.
    every champ would be block, 5 hit combo, block 5 hit combo, where is the fun?
    it makes sense for mordo to have a heavy bias.
    and we wanna see a champ like hype have a sp1 bias.
    imagine if hype had a sp3 bias. that would suck.

  • Maat1985Maat1985 Member Posts: 2,392 ★★★★
    edited October 2023

    So certain champs don't fight differently? Nobody is believing this. So Msyterio and Chavez will stop throwing heavy attacks majority of the time? on Flipside, Thing will no longer go defensive?

    thats not what is being said.

    champions can have biases and unique preferences without the AI itself being touched at all.
    it is something written into a champs coding that gives the champion a particular bias.
    just like a sp1 bias node for example.
    it does not change the AI coding at all.
    just adds a modifier.

    it is a different thing
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Member Posts: 2,392 ★★★★

    XSquad said:

    I’m sorry but I am calling BS in the randomness of it. You have champs like Chavez and Mysterio spamming heavies from across the screen and it just so happens to be a major part of their kits. Nick fury will throw sp1 into blocks but it takes forever to get him to throw his sp2. These are intended and not random.

    Different champs have different biases. But it’s still random. Chavez has a *chance* to throw a heavy, she sometimes doesn’t but often does. It’s just a higher chance compared to Spider Gwen for example. That doesn’t mean neither are random.

    You’re mixing up “random chance” with “the same chance”

    Kabam have never said that every champ has the same AI profile. They still all roll a dice, but some are rolling different ones.
    If you manually adjust the weights for certain AI thats literally AI manipulation (what else could that phrase even mean?).The post is claiming that hidden layers in the engine are affecting the AI which is markedly different
    If you can find where Kabam said every champ has the same AI profile you might have a point. Until then, unfortunately not so much
    BWHAHAHA. Do you know what “randomly generated weights” means? This is what the post we are all responding to says is happening. If you set those by hand thats not random generation. YOU got confused and incorrectly tried to correct the comment you responded to by conflating sampling from the weights with setting the weights after assuming information that was not provided anywhere in this update.

    Furthermore you skipped around the question: if you think manually setting their biases is not the literal definition of AI manipulation, then what constitutes AI manipulation? You cannot describe a behavior short of literally having a kabam employee sitting down playing as the AI that doesnt fall under that umbrella. With how crudely you’re trying to define AI manipulation Kabam could literally make new champs become literal perfect opponents under the guise that “not every champ will have the same profile” and not be considered to have manipulated the AI
    yes but manipulating the weighting of chances and the way the champ interacts with the AI is not one in the same as changing the AI.
    THE AI PROFILE ITSELF remains the same.
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Member Posts: 2,392 ★★★★

    there is clearly code written for all defenders against specific attackers. examples being the AI likes to wait out ghost's phase and gives less opportunities for parries, especially at the beginning of matches, against elsa.

    yes but that would be stuff in the champion code that givces certain biases. not actually modifying the AI itself.
    or
    it would be the AI has a value that says "when champ is phasing play more defensive" and this is not something directly related to ghost but an AI variable for any type of phase.
    just how ROOT ads a very very strong heavy bias.
  • MitchianzerMitchianzer Member Posts: 1
    You are a very biased company. I've played so much that the opponent's Xp is too high. All my units and savings are used up just so I can defeat the opponent. I hope you can get along with Tyson, in that way I will believe you.
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