Make content that takes 80 ish revives to complete and let them earn 1-2 a day. That sounds like it was well thought out.
it only takes 80ish revives if you’re not good enough for the content. that’s the entire reason for removing revive farming. players would amass 200+ revives and brute force any and all content even if they weren’t at the intended point in the game to do it. if you play well and have the right champs you can finish necro in like 30-40 revives fairly easily
I will quote Colonel Jessup in regards to my 200+ revive run during the Road to the Crypt milestone window…
“You want me on that wall… YOU NEED ME ON THAT WALL!”
That’s not the point I’m making. I’m not saying it’s just as easy to grind them in a week. I am saying it doesn’t meaningfully change how many I can access, FTP or not. There are FTP players with way more units than me saved up for the banquet event.
This shift will just make players reconsider spending units on deals vs content completion.
Yes. Which you are supposed to do. That is literally why you are allowed to grind for units to a far greater degree than you can revives. Revives can be used for one purpose only. But any player who decides to expend time grinding units must then decide how to spend them, and there are multiple options there, and it is extremely difficult to grind up enough units to buy everything you want with them. All of this is implicitly accounted for in the unit economy itself (which is also why you can't autofight the arena, and will never be able to ever).
But you keep saying things like "it will not significantly impact the amount of revives someone spends on content." Yes it will. It cannot possibly be true that players will now have to make a choice, and yet that choice has zero impact on what they do. That's a logical contradiction. You *can* choose to spend your units on revives to complete Everest content if you need more revives than you can accumulate. But that means you will not spend those units on other things like offers. You will get the rewards from here, by forgoing the rewards from there. Or you won't, and continue to save your units for offers, and not buy revives, and not get the rewards from that kind of content. Everyone will have to choose what their time and resources ultimately goes towards, and everyone is going to make their own different choices in that regard.
Removing the revive farms changes the calculus of how players spend their time and resources. If it changed nothing, no one would be complaining about it.
I’m not saying anyone needs more than 75 free ones to do the content. I’m saying before this change and after this change a FTP player can still just as easily throw 300 revives at any piece of content they want.
If that's the case, then there's no problem for F2P players..
I just don’t buy the “it’s to limit the design parameters” nonsense.
It is always more nuanced and more complicated than that, but the fact is that this has been a design concern of Everest-like content since before F2P monetization. It is always a factor in the design of such content, and while monetization always plays a role in a modern F2P game, the notion that the "design parameters" is just "nonsense" is objectively wrong, and literally anyone who has ever come anywhere near a game design studio would know this. You don't need to specifically know anything about MCOC itself to know this, because this is a pervasive universal issue.
The fact that so many players feel they have things all figured out and they just know why game designers do what they do, and they are almost always completely wrong is why there are so few game design AMAs in the world, and almost none of them have game economy designers volunteering to do them. There is no reason to do that when the most common question you're likely to get are sliding scale politeness variations of "why do you always lie about what you do?"
I’ve never said this is a problem for FTP players. I don’t think it will be in the long run, it will just require adjustments to spending units. I think the decision to pull the trigger on it came at a bad time and the reasoning being suggested doesn’t make sense to me.
If someone wants to educate me, I’m happy to learn. There doesn’t seem to be a discussion though, just a “you don’t know what you’re talking about” response.
Before this change, a player could farm 150 revives for necropolis. After this change, a player will still just as easily be able to throw 150 revives at necropolis by spending units. That’s the same whether they are purchased units or not.
So what changes?
I’m suggesting the change is a shift to unit spending for revives. I’m further suggesting this will result in spenders buying units if they get stuck mid-run and run out.
I don’t see this reducing the number of revives people spend on content. I do see this significantly increasing the number of units people spend on content.
That’s what it looks like to someone not familiar with the intricacies of game economics.
For those that farmed revives before hand, would you have skipped completing it by Jan. 15 if you had to spend units instead?
I’m not saying anyone needs more than 75 free ones to do the content. I’m saying before this change and after this change a FTP player can still just as easily throw 300 revives at any piece of content they want.
If that's the case, then there's no problem for F2P players..
I just don’t buy the “it’s to limit the design parameters” nonsense.
It is always more nuanced and more complicated than that, but the fact is that this has been a design concern of Everest-like content since before F2P monetization. It is always a factor in the design of such content, and while monetization always plays a role in a modern F2P game, the notion that the "design parameters" is just "nonsense" is objectively wrong, and literally anyone who has ever come anywhere near a game design studio would know this. You don't need to specifically know anything about MCOC itself to know this, because this is a pervasive universal issue.
The fact that so many players feel they have things all figured out and they just know why game designers do what they do, and they are almost always completely wrong is why there are so few game design AMAs in the world, and almost none of them have game economy designers volunteering to do them. There is no reason to do that when the most common question you're likely to get are sliding scale politeness variations of "why do you always lie about what you do?"
I’ve never said this is a problem for FTP players. I don’t think it will be in the long run, it will just require adjustments to spending units. I think the decision to pull the trigger on it came at a bad time and the reasoning being suggested doesn’t make sense to me.
If someone wants to educate me, I’m happy to learn. There doesn’t seem to be a discussion though, just a “you don’t know what you’re talking about” response.
Before this change, a player could farm 150 revives for necropolis. After this change, a player will still just as easily be able to throw 150 revives at necropolis by spending units. That’s the same whether they are purchased units or not.
So what changes?
I’m suggesting the change is a shift to unit spending for revives. I’m further suggesting this will result in spenders buying units if they get stuck mid-run and run out.
I don’t see this reducing the number of revives people spend on content. I do see this significantly increasing the number of units people spend on content.
That’s what it looks like to someone not familiar with the intricacies of game economics.
For those that farmed revives before hand, would you have skipped completing it by Jan. 15 if you had to spend units instead?
If the revive farming didnt exist, 80% or more of everyone who did multiple paths would be at just 1 max 2 runs done
Make content that takes 80 ish revives to complete and let them earn 1-2 a day. That sounds like it was well thought out.
it only takes 80ish revives if you’re not good enough for the content. that’s the entire reason for removing revive farming. players would amass 200+ revives and brute force any and all content even if they weren’t at the intended point in the game to do it. if you play well and have the right champs you can finish necro in like 30-40 revives fairly easily
The only people I’ve seen complete a run in less than 40 revives are content creators. So you’re telling me Kabam made content only content creators should be able to do? That sounds like a lot of fun
Before this change, a player could farm 150 revives for necropolis. After this change, a player will still just as easily be able to throw 150 revives at necropolis by spending units. That’s the same whether they are purchased units or not.
So what changes?
First of all, before the revive farming nerfs, players could farm 300 revives for Necropolis. They could farm 500 revives for Necropolis if they were reasonably good at it. If I really wanted to, I could have farmed a thousand revives for Necropolis without spending cash or units.
Second, it won't be "just as easy" to throw 150 revives or more at Necropolis, because spending units is not "just as easy." It takes cash or significant effort to get units above a certain point, and there's also opportunity cost. Revives cannot be used for anything except to throw at hard content. But units have options. Not only do you have to spend the effort to get them, once you have them you have to choose what to spend them on, and every time you spend units on one thing, there's the additional opportunity cost of not being able to spend them on something else.
The unit economy has guardrails: there are limits on how much you can earn. But there are also a lot of different unit sinks in the game that themselves are balanced around unit availability in the game economy. Revive farms existed completely outside all in-game guardrails and limits. People say you still needed to burn energy so they were limited, but those people just didn't know how to farm revives efficiently. You could do it indefinitely if you picked the right farms and the right farming techniques. You just needed time, and not even tons of that because you could, if you had strong enough teams, autofarm it. While some people count as time, but I don't. If I'm spending my time doing something else while my phone farms resources, that is essentially zero time expended to me.
If you want to spend time actively grinding units and then spending them on Necropolis, that's your choice. The fact that option exists is just a part of how the overall game economy works. But if you want to autofight all your energy away to build up an unlimited stash of revives to just smash down every piece of Everest content the devs create, that's completely different, and that's not something the devs want to either encourage or even allow.
That's what changes. Now, maybe you think that's not a good reason. Maybe you think if you were in charge you wouldn't do it that way. You're almost certainly wrong, because everyone eventually does this because everyone realizes they have to, but even if that is the case, the devs have no obligation to think like you. Whether it makes sense to you or not, it makes sense to the devs, and this would make sense to any other game designer in existence. It is logical, commonplace, and common knowledge for game design.
Now, does this *force* players to spend more units? No, it does not. It forces them to make a choice. They can choose to spend units on Necropolis instead of spending those units elsewhere. Or they can choose not to spend units on Necropolis and save those units for other things. They can choose to spend units on Necropolis now, or they can choose to do Necropolis at a later time when they will be stronger, more skilled, and it will take fewer revives. Those kinds of choices are precisely the kinds of choices any game designer will want their players to be making. Some players will spend more units and others won't, and both are intentional because the intention is not that players spend more or less units, the intention is that players have to choose.
Players starting to fight each other instead of demanding responses from Kabam will never get old, sometimes it feels like the one's who initiate the fight is on payroll less than interns.
The problem is the cap and the expiry time. Most non-progressing players will have revives expiring all the time. This is not about resource management, because you can't trade revives for anything else (save for selling for gold which is a horrible trade).
Revives (and health) pots are unlike most other resources in the game as you either tend to not need them at all or need them in abundance. There isn't the equivalent "I need a hundred catalysts to do a mass rank-up" and you can manage those somewhat interchangeably to progress your roster.
Players starting to fight each other instead of demanding responses from Kabam will never get old, sometimes it feels like the one's who initiate the fight is on payroll less than interns.
what response do you expect from kabam??? they’ve already said why they’re removing revive farming. they aren’t going to change their mind because people on the forum complain.
Players starting to fight each other instead of demanding responses from Kabam will never get old, sometimes it feels like the one's who initiate the fight is on payroll less than interns.
what response do you expect from kabam??? they’ve already said why they’re removing revive farming. they aren’t going to change their mind because people on the forum complain.
Buff Apothecary? Increase revive cap? Fix Arena? Tune AI further? Fix AI dashing the whole screen in 0.2 seconds? Fix AI launching specials after cancelling out their animations? Of standing? Blocking? Heavy?
But yes, what responses, no no, not any response is due, LET ME FIGHT WITH OTHER PLAYERS.
Buff Apothecary? Increase revive cap? Fix Arena? Tune AI further? Fix AI dashing the whole screen in 0.2 seconds? Fix AI launching specials after cancelling out their animations? Of standing? Blocking? Heavy?
But yes, what responses, no no, not any response is due, LET ME FIGHT WITH OTHER PLAYERS.
they’ve already given a response to everything except arena. i don’t even know what “fix” it needs other than a buff to rewards? but even then they’ll buff that when they feel like it’s appropriate. i trust the professional game designers and developers more than people on the forum who want more rewards.
I’m not saying anyone needs more than 75 free ones to do the content. I’m saying before this change and after this change a FTP player can still just as easily throw 300 revives at any piece of content they want.
If that's the case, then there's no problem for F2P players..
I just don’t buy the “it’s to limit the design parameters” nonsense.
It is always more nuanced and more complicated than that, but the fact is that this has been a design concern of Everest-like content since before F2P monetization. It is always a factor in the design of such content, and while monetization always plays a role in a modern F2P game, the notion that the "design parameters" is just "nonsense" is objectively wrong, and literally anyone who has ever come anywhere near a game design studio would know this. You don't need to specifically know anything about MCOC itself to know this, because this is a pervasive universal issue.
The fact that so many players feel they have things all figured out and they just know why game designers do what they do, and they are almost always completely wrong is why there are so few game design AMAs in the world, and almost none of them have game economy designers volunteering to do them. There is no reason to do that when the most common question you're likely to get are sliding scale politeness variations of "why do you always lie about what you do?"
I’ve never said this is a problem for FTP players. I don’t think it will be in the long run, it will just require adjustments to spending units. I think the decision to pull the trigger on it came at a bad time and the reasoning being suggested doesn’t make sense to me.
If someone wants to educate me, I’m happy to learn. There doesn’t seem to be a discussion though, just a “you don’t know what you’re talking about” response.
Before this change, a player could farm 150 revives for necropolis. After this change, a player will still just as easily be able to throw 150 revives at necropolis by spending units. That’s the same whether they are purchased units or not.
So what changes?
I’m suggesting the change is a shift to unit spending for revives. I’m further suggesting this will result in spenders buying units if they get stuck mid-run and run out.
I don’t see this reducing the number of revives people spend on content. I do see this significantly increasing the number of units people spend on content.
That’s what it looks like to someone not familiar with the intricacies of game economics.
For those that farmed revives before hand, would you have skipped completing it by Jan. 15 if you had to spend units instead?
If the revive farming didnt exist, 80% or more of everyone who did multiple paths would be at just 1 max 2 runs done
Or... They could have done what people did in the past and grind arena for the units. You speak pretty confidently when you really have no clue what it would be like.
Good luck explaining the game health when another batch of frustrated players call it quits.
if people want to quit because they actually have to get good enough to beat content without spamming 400 revives then i can’t stop them. i understand being frustrated and annoyed at the change. but player get frustrated and threaten to quit at literally everything. how many posts have you seen in the forum where somewhere gets a bad pull from a 7 star and says they’re quitting. do you think kabam is going to start rigging their crystals to have the best pulls so that they’ll stay?
I am a light spender, I think this whole year I spent actual money on the plat track for Morbius and thats it. Certainly cant remember any spending prior to that. I dont buy units.
I try to hit 12m in the featured arena as often as I can, I dont bother with the others unless I need points for hero use or arena wins. Sitting on 26k units, I dont recall how long I've saved for though.
I waited for the recent black friday thing or whatever its called (I dont really pay attention) and decided they werent worth spending on but since Kabam valued a 7* at 3k units (I think) I figured 3k buys a lot of revives, and necro had better rewards for the spend if I don't get stupid trying to blast through.
I never abused the revive farms but probably should've, instead I traded my time for arena wins. Those arena wins let me complete any content I'm silly enough to overspend on but none of it cost me real money. Yeah, I grinded maybe 30 out of act 5, and I'll do it again hard if I get time between completing my necro run and the nerf date (gotta use the 11ty refills from free crystals somewhere) but at no point do I feel that I am being hampered by anything other than my own skill.
Revive nerf sucks but I wont complain too hard until a unit nerf is introduced that requires me to buy them with cash.
Good luck explaining the game health when another batch of frustrated players call it quits.
if people want to quit because they actually have to get good enough to beat content without spamming 400 revives then i can’t stop them. i understand being frustrated and annoyed at the change. but player get frustrated and threaten to quit at literally everything. how many posts have you seen in the forum where somewhere gets a bad pull from a 7 star and says they’re quitting. do you think kabam is going to start rigging their crystals to have the best pulls so that they’ll stay?
Idk why you brought "I pull bad 7, Kabam I quit" posts to defend ANOTHER revive nerf but you do you.
Hoping Kabam at least makes some form of response to this, just so we can know they’ve acknowledged this as a gap and provide others reassurance that its not just about wanting us to be spending units and money
Players starting to fight each other instead of demanding responses from Kabam will never get old, sometimes it feels like the one's who initiate the fight is on payroll less than interns.
what response do you expect from kabam??? they’ve already said why they’re removing revive farming. they aren’t going to change their mind because people on the forum complain.
Buff Apothecary? Increase revive cap? Fix Arena? Tune AI further? Fix AI dashing the whole screen in 0.2 seconds? Fix AI launching specials after cancelling out their animations? Of standing? Blocking? Heavy?
But yes, what responses, no no, not any response is due, LET ME FIGHT WITH OTHER PLAYERS.
Aren't you the pseudo hotshot that calls other players "scrubs" and boast about farming BG points in Gold tier?
Hoping Kabam at least makes some form of response to this, just so we can know they’ve acknowledged this as a gap and provide others reassurance that its not just about wanting us to be spending units and money
I really can't understand what you think they'd respond to that they haven't already. The game provides you tons of resources already. You're upset you can't have unlimited resources at your disposal when you want them. So what exactly are you expecting them to say?
Hoping Kabam at least makes some form of response to this, just so we can know they’ve acknowledged this as a gap and provide others reassurance that its not just about wanting us to be spending units and money
they said that the first time they nerfed revive farming a few months ago. they said it was to allow for better content design not constricted by players having easy access to infinite revives. but people just didn’t like that answer and decided it was because they wanted to make players spend more
It’s sad that promising and inspiring threads are ending with users who fight each other. This action trivializes such threads and it’s just a back and forth until eternity
Players starting to fight each other instead of demanding responses from Kabam will never get old, sometimes it feels like the one's who initiate the fight is on payroll less than interns.
what response do you expect from kabam??? they’ve already said why they’re removing revive farming. they aren’t going to change their mind because people on the forum complain.
Buff Apothecary? Increase revive cap? Fix Arena? Tune AI further? Fix AI dashing the whole screen in 0.2 seconds? Fix AI launching specials after cancelling out their animations? Of standing? Blocking? Heavy?
But yes, what responses, no no, not any response is due, LET ME FIGHT WITH OTHER PLAYERS.
Aren't you the pseudo hotshot that calls other players "scrubs" and boast about farming BG points in Gold tier?
What are you talking about?? *Is surprised from uncalled vile accusations*
Hoping Kabam at least makes some form of response to this, just so we can know they’ve acknowledged this as a gap and provide others reassurance that its not just about wanting us to be spending units and money
they said that the first time they nerfed revive farming a few months ago. they said it was to allow for better content design not constricted by players having easy access to infinite revives. but people just didn’t like that answer and decided it was because they wanted to make players spend more
Thats where you and Demonzfyre are clearly misunderstanding the intentions of this thread. I am NOT asking for infinite revives (the way its setup now) , or an infinite loop to keep farming them.
I am asking for the suggestions I proposed to be looked at.
For example increased storage capacity of potions, revives, refills. Theyve been outdated and untouched for quite some time.
Or buffing apothecary (for example 2 L1 revives or 1 L2 revive)
Or add another quest that can only be done once a day or once every 2 days, that cant just be done on autofight.
I am offended by everyone thinking that just because theres a thread on this, means that we want infinite revives. We just want the current f2p methods of obtaining revives to be revamped.
Thats where you and Demonzfyre are clearly misunderstanding the intentions of this thread. I am NOT asking for infinite revives (the way its setup now) , or an infinite loop to keep farming them.
I am asking for the suggestions I proposed to be looked at.
For example increased storage capacity of potions, revives, refills. Theyve been outdated and untouched for quite some time.
Or buffing apothecary (for example 2 L1 revives or 1 L2 revive)
Or add another quest that can only be done once a day or once every 2 days, that cant just be done on autofight.
I am offended by everyone thinking that just because theres a thread on this, means that we want infinite revives. We just want the current f2p methods of obtaining revives to be revamped.
you are clearly misunderstanding the intent behind nerfing revive farming and the balance and design choices surrounding it. if kabam buffs the amount of revives players have easy access to then content will be more challenging and require more revives on average to complete. the necropolis was designed without farming being assumed which is why it is possible to beat it itemless. had they designed it with farming in mind the “die now” mechanic would be an actual die now mechanic and not the current one which does not actually end the fight immediately.
Comments
“You want me on that wall… YOU NEED ME ON THAT WALL!”
😜
But you keep saying things like "it will not significantly impact the amount of revives someone spends on content." Yes it will. It cannot possibly be true that players will now have to make a choice, and yet that choice has zero impact on what they do. That's a logical contradiction. You *can* choose to spend your units on revives to complete Everest content if you need more revives than you can accumulate. But that means you will not spend those units on other things like offers. You will get the rewards from here, by forgoing the rewards from there. Or you won't, and continue to save your units for offers, and not buy revives, and not get the rewards from that kind of content. Everyone will have to choose what their time and resources ultimately goes towards, and everyone is going to make their own different choices in that regard.
Removing the revive farms changes the calculus of how players spend their time and resources. If it changed nothing, no one would be complaining about it.
If someone wants to educate me, I’m happy to learn. There doesn’t seem to be a discussion though, just a “you don’t know what you’re talking about” response.
Before this change, a player could farm 150 revives for necropolis. After this change, a player will still just as easily be able to throw 150 revives at necropolis by spending units. That’s the same whether they are purchased units or not.
So what changes?
I’m suggesting the change is a shift to unit spending for revives. I’m further suggesting this will result in spenders buying units if they get stuck mid-run and run out.
I don’t see this reducing the number of revives people spend on content. I do see this significantly increasing the number of units people spend on content.
That’s what it looks like to someone not familiar with the intricacies of game economics.
For those that farmed revives before hand, would you have skipped completing it by Jan. 15 if you had to spend units instead?
That sounds like a lot of fun
Second, it won't be "just as easy" to throw 150 revives or more at Necropolis, because spending units is not "just as easy." It takes cash or significant effort to get units above a certain point, and there's also opportunity cost. Revives cannot be used for anything except to throw at hard content. But units have options. Not only do you have to spend the effort to get them, once you have them you have to choose what to spend them on, and every time you spend units on one thing, there's the additional opportunity cost of not being able to spend them on something else.
The unit economy has guardrails: there are limits on how much you can earn. But there are also a lot of different unit sinks in the game that themselves are balanced around unit availability in the game economy. Revive farms existed completely outside all in-game guardrails and limits. People say you still needed to burn energy so they were limited, but those people just didn't know how to farm revives efficiently. You could do it indefinitely if you picked the right farms and the right farming techniques. You just needed time, and not even tons of that because you could, if you had strong enough teams, autofarm it. While some people count as time, but I don't. If I'm spending my time doing something else while my phone farms resources, that is essentially zero time expended to me.
If you want to spend time actively grinding units and then spending them on Necropolis, that's your choice. The fact that option exists is just a part of how the overall game economy works. But if you want to autofight all your energy away to build up an unlimited stash of revives to just smash down every piece of Everest content the devs create, that's completely different, and that's not something the devs want to either encourage or even allow.
That's what changes. Now, maybe you think that's not a good reason. Maybe you think if you were in charge you wouldn't do it that way. You're almost certainly wrong, because everyone eventually does this because everyone realizes they have to, but even if that is the case, the devs have no obligation to think like you. Whether it makes sense to you or not, it makes sense to the devs, and this would make sense to any other game designer in existence. It is logical, commonplace, and common knowledge for game design.
Now, does this *force* players to spend more units? No, it does not. It forces them to make a choice. They can choose to spend units on Necropolis instead of spending those units elsewhere. Or they can choose not to spend units on Necropolis and save those units for other things. They can choose to spend units on Necropolis now, or they can choose to do Necropolis at a later time when they will be stronger, more skilled, and it will take fewer revives. Those kinds of choices are precisely the kinds of choices any game designer will want their players to be making. Some players will spend more units and others won't, and both are intentional because the intention is not that players spend more or less units, the intention is that players have to choose.
Revives (and health) pots are unlike most other resources in the game as you either tend to not need them at all or need them in abundance. There isn't the equivalent "I need a hundred catalysts to do a mass rank-up" and you can manage those somewhat interchangeably to progress your roster.
But yes, what responses, no no, not any response is due, LET ME FIGHT WITH OTHER PLAYERS.
I try to hit 12m in the featured arena as often as I can, I dont bother with the others unless I need points for hero use or arena wins. Sitting on 26k units, I dont recall how long I've saved for though.
I waited for the recent black friday thing or whatever its called (I dont really pay attention) and decided they werent worth spending on but since Kabam valued a 7* at 3k units (I think) I figured 3k buys a lot of revives, and necro had better rewards for the spend if I don't get stupid trying to blast through.
I never abused the revive farms but probably should've, instead I traded my time for arena wins. Those arena wins let me complete any content I'm silly enough to overspend on but none of it cost me real money. Yeah, I grinded maybe 30 out of act 5, and I'll do it again hard if I get time between completing my necro run and the nerf date (gotta use the 11ty refills from free crystals somewhere) but at no point do I feel that I am being hampered by anything other than my own skill.
Revive nerf sucks but I wont complain too hard until a unit nerf is introduced that requires me to buy them with cash.
*Is surprised from uncalled vile accusations*
I am asking for the suggestions I proposed to be looked at.
For example increased storage capacity of potions, revives, refills. Theyve been outdated and untouched for quite some time.
Or buffing apothecary (for example 2 L1 revives or 1 L2 revive)
Or add another quest that can only be done once a day or once every 2 days, that cant just be done on autofight.
I am offended by everyone thinking that just because theres a thread on this, means that we want infinite revives. We just want the current f2p methods of obtaining revives to be revamped.