I’m very concerned about the slate of superhero movies ahead of us. There’s clearly a reflexive tendency now for critics to look for any reason to bash the superhero genre, and to be fair, quite a lot of the recent releases deserve bashing.
The run to Endgame was epic. Several MCU movies were carried along in its wake and, even though they were not nearly as good (for example CM, AntMan), they were still enjoyable, solid fare. DC, outside of Gunn’s Suicide Squad, was pretty bad. Sony apart from Spiderverse offered mediocre to embarrassing films.
But there really are no longer any Endgame coattails, and the rabid reception for Marvel films appears to have cooled. I would watch almost anything Marvel (couldn’t finish Echo, passed on The Marvels but may catch it streaming someday). I think superhero movies need a new strategy beyond standard tropes and the cut and paste journey of a hero approach.
With that said, what I’m hearing about Web doesn’t do anything to allay my concerns. Will wait for streaming at a minimum.
For me, MCU ended with endgame. Loki was also great but for me, the whole excitement is unfortunately gone. Too much content which was not worth it to watch.
Big hopes for Deadpool 3 but I really try lower my expectations.
I think superhero movies need a new strategy beyond standard tropes and the cut and paste journey of a hero approach.
I don't think I would agree. I think the problem isn't trope reuse, I think it is execution. People were saying similar things during the Infinity saga, and yet Ant Man was a breath of fresh air, and Dr. Strange was a breath of fresh air, and Guardians was a breath of fresh air, all the while none of them were super trope-breaking movies.
People loved Winter Soldier even though in many ways it was just a classic spy thriller, just set in the MCU. It was well executed, and I think that's what mattered more. You could argue that Quantummania was far more original than Civil War, but Civil War was far better executed.
Even at the doorstep to the end of Phase three, Black Panther was a flawed but extremely successful and well-loved movie that wasn't challenging in the cinematic sense, but still fairly well executed and well acted, and had just the right amount of "message" without being preachy.
Post Infinity Saga I think Shang Chi was a good movie, Guardians 3 was a good movie, and No Way Home was of course a spectacular movie. And outside the MCU Across the Spiderverse was amazing. I think there will never be another Infinity Saga, just like I think there will never really be another Crisis on Infinite Earths, no matter how much DC comics keeps trying to recapture that feeling. But I think tropes are tropes because they work. The superhero trope isn't just a few decades old, or even a century old. They are millennia old, and we still use them because they work. But you have to use them properly. Nails have been around for thousands of years, but houses that don't use them correctly still fall down.
As the great (Dominic) Santini used to say, we still dig holes with shovels.
I think superhero movies need a new strategy beyond standard tropes and the cut and paste journey of a hero approach.
I don't think I would agree. I think the problem isn't trope reuse, I think it is execution. People were saying similar things during the Infinity saga, and yet Ant Man was a breath of fresh air, and Dr. Strange was a breath of fresh air, and Guardians was a breath of fresh air, all the while none of them were super trope-breaking movies.
People loved Winter Soldier even though in many ways it was just a classic spy thriller, just set in the MCU. It was well executed, and I think that's what mattered more. You could argue that Quantummania was far more original than Civil War, but Civil War was far better executed.
Even at the doorstep to the end of Phase three, Black Panther was a flawed but extremely successful and well-loved movie that wasn't challenging in the cinematic sense, but still fairly well executed and well acted, and had just the right amount of "message" without being preachy.
Post Infinity Saga I think Shang Chi was a good movie, Guardians 3 was a good movie, and No Way Home was of course a spectacular movie. And outside the MCU Across the Spiderverse was amazing. I think there will never be another Infinity Saga, just like I think there will never really be another Crisis on Infinite Earths, no matter how much DC comics keeps trying to recapture that feeling. But I think tropes are tropes because they work. The superhero trope isn't just a few decades old, or even a century old. They are millennia old, and we still use them because they work. But you have to use them properly. Nails have been around for thousands of years, but houses that don't use them correctly still fall down.
As the great (Dominic) Santini used to say, we still dig holes with shovels.
I think superhero movies need a new strategy beyond standard tropes and the cut and paste journey of a hero approach.
I don't think I would agree. I think the problem isn't trope reuse, I think it is execution. People were saying similar things during the Infinity saga, and yet Ant Man was a breath of fresh air, and Dr. Strange was a breath of fresh air, and Guardians was a breath of fresh air, all the while none of them were super trope-breaking movies.
People loved Winter Soldier even though in many ways it was just a classic spy thriller, just set in the MCU. It was well executed, and I think that's what mattered more. You could argue that Quantummania was far more original than Civil War, but Civil War was far better executed.
Even at the doorstep to the end of Phase three, Black Panther was a flawed but extremely successful and well-loved movie that wasn't challenging in the cinematic sense, but still fairly well executed and well acted, and had just the right amount of "message" without being preachy.
Post Infinity Saga I think Shang Chi was a good movie, Guardians 3 was a good movie, and No Way Home was of course a spectacular movie. And outside the MCU Across the Spiderverse was amazing. I think there will never be another Infinity Saga, just like I think there will never really be another Crisis on Infinite Earths, no matter how much DC comics keeps trying to recapture that feeling. But I think tropes are tropes because they work. The superhero trope isn't just a few decades old, or even a century old. They are millennia old, and we still use them because they work. But you have to use them properly. Nails have been around for thousands of years, but houses that don't use them correctly still fall down.
As the great (Dominic) Santini used to say, we still dig holes with shovels.
I agree with you until the No Way Home bit. It was spectacular on the first watch, but anything after that falls down a steep cliff. The plot makes no sense; too many characters act unlike themselves or just outright stupid for no reason, it relies way way way too heavily on the cameos (hence why it only holds up on the first watch).
TL:;DR only spectacular on first watch. It absolutely falls apart even on the first rewatch when the shock and spectacle of the cameos fade, and everything after the third time, you're wondering how they greenlit most of the script.
DC, outside of Gunn’s Suicide Squad, was pretty bad. Sony apart from Spiderverse offered mediocre to embarrassing films.
DC's animated work was and is ridiculously better than their live action stuff and has been for decades. DC fumbled the bag and Sony Animation scooped it up.
I think superhero movies need a new strategy beyond standard tropes and the cut and paste journey of a hero approach.
I don't think I would agree. I think the problem isn't trope reuse, I think it is execution. People were saying similar things during the Infinity saga, and yet Ant Man was a breath of fresh air, and Dr. Strange was a breath of fresh air, and Guardians was a breath of fresh air, all the while none of them were super trope-breaking movies.
People loved Winter Soldier even though in many ways it was just a classic spy thriller, just set in the MCU. It was well executed, and I think that's what mattered more. You could argue that Quantummania was far more original than Civil War, but Civil War was far better executed.
Even at the doorstep to the end of Phase three, Black Panther was a flawed but extremely successful and well-loved movie that wasn't challenging in the cinematic sense, but still fairly well executed and well acted, and had just the right amount of "message" without being preachy.
Post Infinity Saga I think Shang Chi was a good movie, Guardians 3 was a good movie, and No Way Home was of course a spectacular movie. And outside the MCU Across the Spiderverse was amazing. I think there will never be another Infinity Saga, just like I think there will never really be another Crisis on Infinite Earths, no matter how much DC comics keeps trying to recapture that feeling. But I think tropes are tropes because they work. The superhero trope isn't just a few decades old, or even a century old. They are millennia old, and we still use them because they work. But you have to use them properly. Nails have been around for thousands of years, but houses that don't use them correctly still fall down.
As the great (Dominic) Santini used to say, we still dig holes with shovels.
I agree with you until the No Way Home bit. It was spectacular on the first watch, but anything after that falls down a steep cliff. The plot makes no sense; too many characters act unlike themselves or just outright stupid for no reason, it relies way way way too heavily on the cameos (hence why it only holds up on the first watch).
TL:;DR only spectacular on first watch. It absolutely falls apart even on the first rewatch when the shock and spectacle of the cameos fade, and everything after the third time, you're wondering how they greenlit most of the script.
If you're watching it at home where you could pause it and discuss how something was dumb, it falls apart like Taco Bell tacos.
I thought wakanda forever is good. People said that Namor has an accurate personality to the comics? How does this ***h*le have a hero tag? I didn't watch Shang-chi but it has mixed reviews from what I've seen, No way home has a simple story but the higlight there for me is Tom's incredible performance, I never saw the Marvels but it also has mixed reviews like Shang-chi, I heard it's better than the first one, which is boring for me I never saw WandaVision, but people said it's great but ruined by the ending, I think Loki is fantastic, it's the best thing the MCU did from someone who didn't watch Guardians 3, because people keep mentioning it is the best, It's universally accepted that L&T and quantumania are terrible, though I haven't seen those Moon knight is alright, could've been way better if they didn't decide to make the mystical side be undeniably real and the kaiju fight is just not a good decision to add in I heard a lot of good things about Werewolf by night.
So overall, a mixed bag? Not really as bad, but definitely could be better. Maybe I forgot some really bad ones though idk
I think superhero movies need a new strategy beyond standard tropes and the cut and paste journey of a hero approach.
I don't think I would agree. I think the problem isn't trope reuse, I think it is execution. People were saying similar things during the Infinity saga, and yet Ant Man was a breath of fresh air, and Dr. Strange was a breath of fresh air, and Guardians was a breath of fresh air, all the while none of them were super trope-breaking movies.
People loved Winter Soldier even though in many ways it was just a classic spy thriller, just set in the MCU. It was well executed, and I think that's what mattered more. You could argue that Quantummania was far more original than Civil War, but Civil War was far better executed.
Even at the doorstep to the end of Phase three, Black Panther was a flawed but extremely successful and well-loved movie that wasn't challenging in the cinematic sense, but still fairly well executed and well acted, and had just the right amount of "message" without being preachy.
Post Infinity Saga I think Shang Chi was a good movie, Guardians 3 was a good movie, and No Way Home was of course a spectacular movie. And outside the MCU Across the Spiderverse was amazing. I think there will never be another Infinity Saga, just like I think there will never really be another Crisis on Infinite Earths, no matter how much DC comics keeps trying to recapture that feeling. But I think tropes are tropes because they work. The superhero trope isn't just a few decades old, or even a century old. They are millennia old, and we still use them because they work. But you have to use them properly. Nails have been around for thousands of years, but houses that don't use them correctly still fall down.
As the great (Dominic) Santini used to say, we still dig holes with shovels.
In many ways agree, but I would suggest that many of the movies you mentioned succeeded precisely because they weren’t superhero movies at heart.
Ant-Man? Heist movie. Guardians? Smash up of space opera and dysfunctional family dramedy. Black Panther? Royalty/birthright drama with elements of classical tragedy. Winter Soldier? Like you observed, spy thriller.
Not saying they weren’t movies about superheroes, but they weren’t necessarily superhero movies. I think that’s one reason they worked.
Contrast, for example, Multiverse of Madness: kind of a writing mess, but where it works best is when it leans into more of the horror genre. Another script edit or two and more ghastly ghoulishness (which would fit Doc) and I think it works a lot better.
Spiderverse works because it’s singular animation style and what feels like a fresh take on the hero’s journey. It is quite simply one of my favorite sagas that’s been released period, superhero or otherwise.
Let’s see…Quantumania. I just don’t know. Visually original, but the story? Doesn’t feel original. So many things off with that film. That may be one to dissect over a beer someday.
We really need more Netflix-esque Punisher and Daredevil. Something more grounded and relatable with mature(er) themes but still in the superhero genre. Andor did wonders for Star Wars.
We really need more Netflix-esque Punisher and Daredevil. Something more grounded and relatable with mature(er) themes but still in the superhero genre. Andor did wonders for Star Wars.
Those are coming soon. Did you not watch echo? Daredevil born again is coming soon as well.
I thought wakanda forever is good. People said that Namor has an accurate personality to the comics? How does this ***h*le have a hero tag? I didn't watch Shang-chi but it has mixed reviews from what I've seen, No way home has a simple story but the higlight there for me is Tom's incredible performance, I never saw the Marvels but it also has mixed reviews like Shang-chi, I heard it's better than the first one, which is boring for me I never saw WandaVision, but people said it's great but ruined by the ending, I think Loki is fantastic, it's the best thing the MCU did from someone who didn't watch Guardians 3, because people keep mentioning it is the best, It's universally accepted that L&T and quantumania are terrible, though I haven't seen those Moon knight is alright, could've been way better if they didn't decide to make the mystical side be undeniably real and the kaiju fight is just not a good decision to add in I heard a lot of good things about Werewolf by night.
So overall, a mixed bag? Not really as bad, but definitely could be better. Maybe I forgot some really bad ones though idk
Technically, I think namor was an avenger at some times. He was also an international terror inspirer. Not sure if I'm allowed to use the actual word here. He should have hero, villain and antihero tags imo
I thought wakanda forever is good. People said that Namor has an accurate personality to the comics? How does this ***h*le have a hero tag? I didn't watch Shang-chi but it has mixed reviews from what I've seen, No way home has a simple story but the higlight there for me is Tom's incredible performance, I never saw the Marvels but it also has mixed reviews like Shang-chi, I heard it's better than the first one, which is boring for me I never saw WandaVision, but people said it's great but ruined by the ending, I think Loki is fantastic, it's the best thing the MCU did from someone who didn't watch Guardians 3, because people keep mentioning it is the best, It's universally accepted that L&T and quantumania are terrible, though I haven't seen those Moon knight is alright, could've been way better if they didn't decide to make the mystical side be undeniably real and the kaiju fight is just not a good decision to add in I heard a lot of good things about Werewolf by night.
So overall, a mixed bag? Not really as bad, but definitely could be better. Maybe I forgot some really bad ones though idk
Technically, I think namor was an avenger at some times. He was also an international terror inspirer. Not sure if I'm allowed to use the actual word here. He should have hero, villain and antihero tags imo
Did you mean to say terrorist? They definitely need an anti-hero tag. Do the Avengers at least punish him for his crimes in the comics? No way movie Namor will be an Avenger, I just can't see it.
I thought wakanda forever is good. People said that Namor has an accurate personality to the comics? How does this ***h*le have a hero tag? I didn't watch Shang-chi but it has mixed reviews from what I've seen, No way home has a simple story but the higlight there for me is Tom's incredible performance, I never saw the Marvels but it also has mixed reviews like Shang-chi, I heard it's better than the first one, which is boring for me I never saw WandaVision, but people said it's great but ruined by the ending, I think Loki is fantastic, it's the best thing the MCU did from someone who didn't watch Guardians 3, because people keep mentioning it is the best, It's universally accepted that L&T and quantumania are terrible, though I haven't seen those Moon knight is alright, could've been way better if they didn't decide to make the mystical side be undeniably real and the kaiju fight is just not a good decision to add in I heard a lot of good things about Werewolf by night.
So overall, a mixed bag? Not really as bad, but definitely could be better. Maybe I forgot some really bad ones though idk
Technically, I think namor was an avenger at some times. He was also an international terror inspirer. Not sure if I'm allowed to use the actual word here. He should have hero, villain and antihero tags imo
Did you mean to say terrorist? They definitely need an anti-hero tag. Do the Avengers at least punish him for his crimes in the comics? No way movie Namor will be an Avenger, I just can't see it.
The comic Avengers are frequently criticized for their shifty morality and hypocrisy. Namor mostly stays Namor where he's an arrogant jerk that does what he wants. Sometimes it's aligned with their interests, so he's cool. Sometimes it's not, so they have to preach at him before they "take him down".
I thought wakanda forever is good. People said that Namor has an accurate personality to the comics? How does this ***h*le have a hero tag? I didn't watch Shang-chi but it has mixed reviews from what I've seen, No way home has a simple story but the higlight there for me is Tom's incredible performance, I never saw the Marvels but it also has mixed reviews like Shang-chi, I heard it's better than the first one, which is boring for me I never saw WandaVision, but people said it's great but ruined by the ending, I think Loki is fantastic, it's the best thing the MCU did from someone who didn't watch Guardians 3, because people keep mentioning it is the best, It's universally accepted that L&T and quantumania are terrible, though I haven't seen those Moon knight is alright, could've been way better if they didn't decide to make the mystical side be undeniably real and the kaiju fight is just not a good decision to add in I heard a lot of good things about Werewolf by night.
So overall, a mixed bag? Not really as bad, but definitely could be better. Maybe I forgot some really bad ones though idk
Technically, I think namor was an avenger at some times. He was also an international terror inspirer. Not sure if I'm allowed to use the actual word here. He should have hero, villain and antihero tags imo
Did you mean to say terrorist? They definitely need an anti-hero tag. Do the Avengers at least punish him for his crimes in the comics? No way movie Namor will be an Avenger, I just can't see it.
The comic Avengers are frequently criticized for their shifty morality and hypocrisy. Namor mostly stays Namor where he's an arrogant jerk that does what he wants. Sometimes it's aligned with their interests, so he's cool. Sometimes it's not, so they have to preach at him before they "take him down".
In one comic series run, namor turned from global terrorist to ally of the avengers. It was a good comic series but still. In case you want to read it, it's earths mightiest heroes Avengers
I thought wakanda forever is good. People said that Namor has an accurate personality to the comics? How does this ***h*le have a hero tag? I didn't watch Shang-chi but it has mixed reviews from what I've seen, No way home has a simple story but the higlight there for me is Tom's incredible performance, I never saw the Marvels but it also has mixed reviews like Shang-chi, I heard it's better than the first one, which is boring for me I never saw WandaVision, but people said it's great but ruined by the ending, I think Loki is fantastic, it's the best thing the MCU did from someone who didn't watch Guardians 3, because people keep mentioning it is the best, It's universally accepted that L&T and quantumania are terrible, though I haven't seen those Moon knight is alright, could've been way better if they didn't decide to make the mystical side be undeniably real and the kaiju fight is just not a good decision to add in I heard a lot of good things about Werewolf by night.
So overall, a mixed bag? Not really as bad, but definitely could be better. Maybe I forgot some really bad ones though idk
Technically, I think namor was an avenger at some times. He was also an international terror inspirer. Not sure if I'm allowed to use the actual word here. He should have hero, villain and antihero tags imo
Did you mean to say terrorist? They definitely need an anti-hero tag. Do the Avengers at least punish him for his crimes in the comics? No way movie Namor will be an Avenger, I just can't see it.
The comic Avengers are frequently criticized for their shifty morality and hypocrisy. Namor mostly stays Namor where he's an arrogant jerk that does what he wants. Sometimes it's aligned with their interests, so he's cool. Sometimes it's not, so they have to preach at him before they "take him down".
Sounds more like a villain that has to work with the heroes for a common objective or enemy. I'm not saying my assumption is good though, just basing it on what you said. Not saying he's villain. Thanks for this.
I thought wakanda forever is good. People said that Namor has an accurate personality to the comics? How does this ***h*le have a hero tag? I didn't watch Shang-chi but it has mixed reviews from what I've seen, No way home has a simple story but the higlight there for me is Tom's incredible performance, I never saw the Marvels but it also has mixed reviews like Shang-chi, I heard it's better than the first one, which is boring for me I never saw WandaVision, but people said it's great but ruined by the ending, I think Loki is fantastic, it's the best thing the MCU did from someone who didn't watch Guardians 3, because people keep mentioning it is the best, It's universally accepted that L&T and quantumania are terrible, though I haven't seen those Moon knight is alright, could've been way better if they didn't decide to make the mystical side be undeniably real and the kaiju fight is just not a good decision to add in I heard a lot of good things about Werewolf by night.
So overall, a mixed bag? Not really as bad, but definitely could be better. Maybe I forgot some really bad ones though idk
Technically, I think namor was an avenger at some times. He was also an international terror inspirer. Not sure if I'm allowed to use the actual word here. He should have hero, villain and antihero tags imo
Did you mean to say terrorist? They definitely need an anti-hero tag. Do the Avengers at least punish him for his crimes in the comics? No way movie Namor will be an Avenger, I just can't see it.
The comic Avengers are frequently criticized for their shifty morality and hypocrisy. Namor mostly stays Namor where he's an arrogant jerk that does what he wants. Sometimes it's aligned with their interests, so he's cool. Sometimes it's not, so they have to preach at him before they "take him down".
Sounds more like a villain that has to work with the heroes for a common objective or enemy. I'm not saying my assumption is good though, just basing it on what you said. Not saying he's villain. Thanks for this.
Deadpool and Punisher could also be examples of this but they are way more chaotic than Namor before they get talk no jutsu'd by someone
I think people are too critical of Marvel films in general now. They're not all going to compare to End-Game. That was a build-up that was quite unique.
Most recent stuff hasn't even compared to Thor the dark world. Forget about endgame
Thor dark world was a great film, why don't you like it? I don't even rate endgame that highly tbf, infinity war was much better
I think people are too critical of Marvel films in general now. They're not all going to compare to End-Game. That was a build-up that was quite unique.
Most recent stuff hasn't even compared to Thor the dark world. Forget about endgame
Thor dark world was a great film, why don't you like it? I don't even rate endgame that highly tbf, infinity war was much better
It's considered to be one of if not the worst rated MCU film pre endgame which is why i used it as a point of comparison
Comments
The run to Endgame was epic. Several MCU movies were carried along in its wake and, even though they were not nearly as good (for example CM, AntMan), they were still enjoyable, solid fare. DC, outside of Gunn’s Suicide Squad, was pretty bad. Sony apart from Spiderverse offered mediocre to embarrassing films.
But there really are no longer any Endgame coattails, and the rabid reception for Marvel films appears to have cooled. I would watch almost anything Marvel (couldn’t finish Echo, passed on The Marvels but may catch it streaming someday). I think superhero movies need a new strategy beyond standard tropes and the cut and paste journey of a hero approach.
With that said, what I’m hearing about Web doesn’t do anything to allay my concerns. Will wait for streaming at a minimum.
Dr. Zola
People loved Winter Soldier even though in many ways it was just a classic spy thriller, just set in the MCU. It was well executed, and I think that's what mattered more. You could argue that Quantummania was far more original than Civil War, but Civil War was far better executed.
Even at the doorstep to the end of Phase three, Black Panther was a flawed but extremely successful and well-loved movie that wasn't challenging in the cinematic sense, but still fairly well executed and well acted, and had just the right amount of "message" without being preachy.
Post Infinity Saga I think Shang Chi was a good movie, Guardians 3 was a good movie, and No Way Home was of course a spectacular movie. And outside the MCU Across the Spiderverse was amazing. I think there will never be another Infinity Saga, just like I think there will never really be another Crisis on Infinite Earths, no matter how much DC comics keeps trying to recapture that feeling. But I think tropes are tropes because they work. The superhero trope isn't just a few decades old, or even a century old. They are millennia old, and we still use them because they work. But you have to use them properly. Nails have been around for thousands of years, but houses that don't use them correctly still fall down.
As the great (Dominic) Santini used to say, we still dig holes with shovels.
TL:;DR only spectacular on first watch. It absolutely falls apart even on the first rewatch when the shock and spectacle of the cameos fade, and everything after the third time, you're wondering how they greenlit most of the script.
Ah, Airwolf. Fair play @DNA3000 ...
I didn't watch Shang-chi but it has mixed reviews from what I've seen,
No way home has a simple story but the higlight there for me is Tom's incredible performance,
I never saw the Marvels but it also has mixed reviews like Shang-chi, I heard it's better than the first one, which is boring for me
I never saw WandaVision, but people said it's great but ruined by the ending,
I think Loki is fantastic, it's the best thing the MCU did from someone who didn't watch Guardians 3, because people keep mentioning it is the best,
It's universally accepted that L&T and quantumania are terrible, though I haven't seen those
Moon knight is alright, could've been way better if they didn't decide to make the mystical side be undeniably real and the kaiju fight is just not a good decision to add in
I heard a lot of good things about Werewolf by night.
So overall, a mixed bag? Not really as bad, but definitely could be better. Maybe I forgot some really bad ones though idk
Ant-Man? Heist movie.
Guardians? Smash up of space opera and dysfunctional family dramedy.
Black Panther? Royalty/birthright drama with elements of classical tragedy.
Winter Soldier? Like you observed, spy thriller.
Not saying they weren’t movies about superheroes, but they weren’t necessarily superhero movies. I think that’s one reason they worked.
Contrast, for example, Multiverse of Madness: kind of a writing mess, but where it works best is when it leans into more of the horror genre. Another script edit or two and more ghastly ghoulishness (which would fit Doc) and I think it works a lot better.
Spiderverse works because it’s singular animation style and what feels like a fresh take on the hero’s journey. It is quite simply one of my favorite sagas that’s been released period, superhero or otherwise.
Let’s see…Quantumania. I just don’t know. Visually original, but the story? Doesn’t feel original. So many things off with that film. That may be one to dissect over a beer someday.
Dr. Zola