Crucible phoenix iceman combo - broken?

Supersha7

I just fought her with serpent who is cold snap immune.

It states in the nodes that when a coldsnap expires or is purified she gets a power gain buff.

Well..for some reason when I was firing my sp1 at her, she was gaining tons of power gain buffs.
Serpents sp1 applies coldsnap. But she is immune..so no coldsnap to expire or purify.

And same for when she fires sp1. She was getting power gain…but he’s immune… so no coldsnap to expire or purify.


So what are we exepcted to do?

Eat the coldsnap dmg? Or allowed constant power gain?

Or is it a bug?

BlackTuran

Bug or no bug, don’t worry about her power gain, she doesn’t have an sp3 activated and her sp2 is easier to dodge anyways

Supersha7

Ah. Ok thx for that. Didn’t realise she didn’t have sp3 lol

BlackTuran

Supersha7 said:

Ah. Ok thx for that. Didn’t realise she didn’t have sp3 lol

Yeah the mashup champs don’t have sp3s

Pikolu

BlackTuran said:

Bug or no bug, don’t worry about her power gain, she doesn’t have an sp3 activated and her sp2 is easier to dodge anyways

I forgot about this in my run and just used serpents sp2 for damage the whole time 🤣

RiderofHell

I forgot they had no sp3 and messed up alot with ronan on gwenperion. 🤣

EdisonLaw

She doesn't have a SP3 so it's safe for her to go to 3 bars since she'll just throw sp2

Cuber2906

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

EdisonLaw

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

It's a weird interaction. For example, even Red Guardian gets incinerated by Wiccan if he is neutralized, despite being buff immune

Average_Desi

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

That's because Claire gains power if the opponent is immune to something

Average_Desi

EdisonLaw said:

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

It's a weird interaction. For example, even Red Guardian gets incinerated by Wiccan if he is neutralized, despite being buff immune

Yeah that's how it works. Not a bug

Terra

Average_Desi said:

EdisonLaw said:

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

It's a weird interaction. For example, even Red Guardian gets incinerated by Wiccan if he is neutralized, despite being buff immune

Yeah that's how it works. Not a bug

No buffs can be gained for him...
Gets punished for one attempting to be given...
Doesn't seem right.

Average_Desi

Terra said:

Average_Desi said:

EdisonLaw said:

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

It's a weird interaction. For example, even Red Guardian gets incinerated by Wiccan if he is neutralized, despite being buff immune

Yeah that's how it works. Not a bug

No buffs can be gained for him...
Gets punished for one attempting to be given...
Doesn't seem right.

This discussion has been done to death my friend. There's pages and pages of explanation in other threads. But to be able to understand that, stop thinking of Red guardian as a science champ who is getting punished by a mystic champs.

Instead only look at the abilities in isolation and think about the interaction

Vegeta9001

Average_Desi said:

Terra said:

Average_Desi said:

EdisonLaw said:

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

It's a weird interaction. For example, even Red Guardian gets incinerated by Wiccan if he is neutralized, despite being buff immune

Yeah that's how it works. Not a bug

No buffs can be gained for him...
Gets punished for one attempting to be given...
Doesn't seem right.

This discussion has been done to death my friend. There's pages and pages of explanation in other threads. But to be able to understand that, stop thinking of Red guardian as a science champ who is getting punished by a mystic champs.

Instead only look at the abilities in isolation and think about the interaction

If you're looking solely at the abilities like you insist, wiccan applies incinerates when buffs fail to apply due to Ability accuracy or Wiccans own immunities. Red Guardians buff immunity should not trigger incinerates since it is neither of those two things.

What you're implying would be the same as having conflictor give power to a Colossus for example when you try to bleed him. Because even though he is bleed immune, you tried to bleed him.

Graves_3

Average_Desi said:

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

That's because Claire gains power if the opponent is immune to something

It’s like having your cake and eating it too. He gets the short stick on both interactions-neutralize prevents buff- buff immune so get incinerated. Now against claire-dex but you are buff immune- here let me gain power.

Magrailothos

Terra said:

Average_Desi said:

EdisonLaw said:

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

It's a weird interaction. For example, even Red Guardian gets incinerated by Wiccan if he is neutralized, despite being buff immune

Yeah that's how it works. Not a bug

No buffs can be gained for him...
Gets punished for one attempting to be given...
Doesn't seem right.

I think Claire Voyant is the one case where it really does make sense.

She was literally designed to punish immunities - she actually inflicts buff immunity with her SP2, and punishes it: the very immunity that Red Guardian has..

Average_Desi

Graves_3 said:

Average_Desi said:

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

That's because Claire gains power if the opponent is immune to something

It’s like having your cake and eating it too. He gets the short stick on both interactions-neutralize prevents buff- buff immune so get incinerated. Now against claire-dex but you are buff immune- here let me gain power.

He doesn't get incinerated because he's buff immune. But because his buff failed to trigger due to aar

Average_Desi

Vegeta9001 said:

Average_Desi said:

Terra said:

Average_Desi said:

EdisonLaw said:

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

It's a weird interaction. For example, even Red Guardian gets incinerated by Wiccan if he is neutralized, despite being buff immune

Yeah that's how it works. Not a bug

No buffs can be gained for him...
Gets punished for one attempting to be given...
Doesn't seem right.

This discussion has been done to death my friend. There's pages and pages of explanation in other threads. But to be able to understand that, stop thinking of Red guardian as a science champ who is getting punished by a mystic champs.

Instead only look at the abilities in isolation and think about the interaction

If you're looking solely at the abilities like you insist, wiccan applies incinerates when buffs fail to apply due to Ability accuracy or Wiccans own immunities. Red Guardians buff immunity should not trigger incinerates since it is neither of those two things.

What you're implying would be the same as having conflictor give power to a Colossus for example when you try to bleed him. Because even though he is bleed immune, you tried to bleed him.

It's a good thing you brought Colossus into the picture.


Imagine a scenario with Nick Fury against Colossus. Suppose Nick has a 100% concussion. Now, if he were to do a medium, Colossus would not gain a bleed right? Was that because Colossus is immune ? Or because Nick was not able to apply the bleed in the first place?

WednesdayLength

Terra said:

Average_Desi said:

EdisonLaw said:

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

It's a weird interaction. For example, even Red Guardian gets incinerated by Wiccan if he is neutralized, despite being buff immune

Yeah that's how it works. Not a bug

No buffs can be gained for him...
Gets punished for one attempting to be given...
Doesn't seem right.

It's just the chain of how the code works. If you're playing a champ with a 30% chance to bleed when striking with s basic attack the order of code events is "does the 30% chance activate" and then "can the opponent be bled", you have to roll an attack that will bleed before the game checks for any immunities on the opponent. Buff immunity and neutralise is the same order, except neutralise doesn't punish the buff it punishes the failure to activate 1.

Even if a champion is buff immune, they still have to roll the dice to see whether any buff they would try and activate will work, and neutralise reduces the chance of buffs like dexterity and gives them a chance to fail. The game will check if the buff wins the dive roll and then will see if you can actually gain the buff and even if you're buff immune failing that dice roll is what Wiccan punishes

Vegeta9001

Average_Desi said:

Vegeta9001 said:

Average_Desi said:

Terra said:

Average_Desi said:

EdisonLaw said:

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

It's a weird interaction. For example, even Red Guardian gets incinerated by Wiccan if he is neutralized, despite being buff immune

Yeah that's how it works. Not a bug

No buffs can be gained for him...
Gets punished for one attempting to be given...
Doesn't seem right.

This discussion has been done to death my friend. There's pages and pages of explanation in other threads. But to be able to understand that, stop thinking of Red guardian as a science champ who is getting punished by a mystic champs.

Instead only look at the abilities in isolation and think about the interaction

If you're looking solely at the abilities like you insist, wiccan applies incinerates when buffs fail to apply due to Ability accuracy or Wiccans own immunities. Red Guardians buff immunity should not trigger incinerates since it is neither of those two things.

What you're implying would be the same as having conflictor give power to a Colossus for example when you try to bleed him. Because even though he is bleed immune, you tried to bleed him.

It's a good thing you brought Colossus into the picture.


Imagine a scenario with Nick Fury against Colossus. Suppose Nick has a 100% concussion. Now, if he were to do a medium, Colossus would not gain a bleed right? Was that because Colossus is immune ? Or because Nick was not able to apply the bleed in the first place?

Quite easy, if it says "immune" it's because of the immunity, if it doesn't say "immune" it's due to the concussion meaning the bleed didn't apply due to AAR. The point is simple, some neutralise champs get bonuses for failing to prevent buffs in anyway, wiccandoes not, he gains bonuses/incinerates by preventing buffs with A. His own immunities, or B. Lowered ability accuracy, so he shouldnt apply incinerates to buff immunes, since thatdirectly goes against what's stated in his kits. Neutralise as a whole is sketchy at best, since most champions with neutralise get their benefits when "stopping buffs due to Ability accuracy" an immunity is not ability accuracy, as mentioned above, other immunities exist thatdont trigger nodes and abilities.

Its the whole order of operations thing, just janks up the game, but I don't expect anything else. It won't ever change and I've just come to accept the fact it's incorrect.

Graves_3

Average_Desi said:

Graves_3 said:

Average_Desi said:

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

That's because Claire gains power if the opponent is immune to something

It’s like having your cake and eating it too. He gets the short stick on both interactions-neutralize prevents buff- buff immune so get incinerated. Now against claire-dex but you are buff immune- here let me gain power.

He doesn't get incinerated because he's buff immune. But because his buff failed to trigger due to aar

That’s what I was trying to tell you. RG is screwed no matter if buff is prevented by AAR or by immunity. I understand how it works. And I do accept that it’s how it is. It’s just weird that it impacts him in both ways.

Average_Desi

Graves_3 said:

Average_Desi said:

Graves_3 said:

Average_Desi said:

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

That's because Claire gains power if the opponent is immune to something

It’s like having your cake and eating it too. He gets the short stick on both interactions-neutralize prevents buff- buff immune so get incinerated. Now against claire-dex but you are buff immune- here let me gain power.

He doesn't get incinerated because he's buff immune. But because his buff failed to trigger due to aar

That’s what I was trying to tell you. RG is screwed no matter if buff is prevented by AAR or by immunity. I understand how it works. And I do accept that it’s how it is. It’s just weird that it impacts him in both ways.

Okk, I misread your comment. My bad

Average_Desi

Vegeta9001 said:

Average_Desi said:

Vegeta9001 said:

Average_Desi said:

Terra said:

Average_Desi said:

EdisonLaw said:

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

It's a weird interaction. For example, even Red Guardian gets incinerated by Wiccan if he is neutralized, despite being buff immune

Yeah that's how it works. Not a bug

No buffs can be gained for him...
Gets punished for one attempting to be given...
Doesn't seem right.

This discussion has been done to death my friend. There's pages and pages of explanation in other threads. But to be able to understand that, stop thinking of Red guardian as a science champ who is getting punished by a mystic champs.

Instead only look at the abilities in isolation and think about the interaction

If you're looking solely at the abilities like you insist, wiccan applies incinerates when buffs fail to apply due to Ability accuracy or Wiccans own immunities. Red Guardians buff immunity should not trigger incinerates since it is neither of those two things.

What you're implying would be the same as having conflictor give power to a Colossus for example when you try to bleed him. Because even though he is bleed immune, you tried to bleed him.

It's a good thing you brought Colossus into the picture.


Imagine a scenario with Nick Fury against Colossus. Suppose Nick has a 100% concussion. Now, if he were to do a medium, Colossus would not gain a bleed right? Was that because Colossus is immune ? Or because Nick was not able to apply the bleed in the first place?

Quite easy, if it says "immune" it's because of the immunity, if it doesn't say "immune" it's due to the concussion meaning the bleed didn't apply due to AAR. The point is simple, some neutralise champs get bonuses for failing to prevent buffs in anyway, wiccandoes not, he gains bonuses/incinerates by preventing buffs with A. His own immunities, or B. Lowered ability accuracy, so he shouldnt apply incinerates to buff immunes, since thatdirectly goes against what's stated in his kits. Neutralise as a whole is sketchy at best, since most champions with neutralise get their benefits when "stopping buffs due to Ability accuracy" an immunity is not ability accuracy, as mentioned above, other immunities exist thatdont trigger nodes and abilities.

Its the whole order of operations thing, just janks up the game, but I don't expect anything else. It won't ever change and I've just come to accept the fact it's incorrect.

You're still wrong. It's not incorrect at all.


And you haven't answered it. Is the reason there was no bleed placed on Colossus because he was immune, or because Nick was unable to place it?

If Colossus had empowered immunity (gain power if immune to an effect) , then in the case above(Nick has 100% concussion) , would he gain power when Nick strikes him with a medium?

EdisonLaw

Average_Desi said:

Vegeta9001 said:

Average_Desi said:

Vegeta9001 said:

Average_Desi said:

Terra said:

Average_Desi said:

EdisonLaw said:

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

It's a weird interaction. For example, even Red Guardian gets incinerated by Wiccan if he is neutralized, despite being buff immune

Yeah that's how it works. Not a bug

No buffs can be gained for him...
Gets punished for one attempting to be given...
Doesn't seem right.

This discussion has been done to death my friend. There's pages and pages of explanation in other threads. But to be able to understand that, stop thinking of Red guardian as a science champ who is getting punished by a mystic champs.

Instead only look at the abilities in isolation and think about the interaction

If you're looking solely at the abilities like you insist, wiccan applies incinerates when buffs fail to apply due to Ability accuracy or Wiccans own immunities. Red Guardians buff immunity should not trigger incinerates since it is neither of those two things.

What you're implying would be the same as having conflictor give power to a Colossus for example when you try to bleed him. Because even though he is bleed immune, you tried to bleed him.

It's a good thing you brought Colossus into the picture.


Imagine a scenario with Nick Fury against Colossus. Suppose Nick has a 100% concussion. Now, if he were to do a medium, Colossus would not gain a bleed right? Was that because Colossus is immune ? Or because Nick was not able to apply the bleed in the first place?

Quite easy, if it says "immune" it's because of the immunity, if it doesn't say "immune" it's due to the concussion meaning the bleed didn't apply due to AAR. The point is simple, some neutralise champs get bonuses for failing to prevent buffs in anyway, wiccandoes not, he gains bonuses/incinerates by preventing buffs with A. His own immunities, or B. Lowered ability accuracy, so he shouldnt apply incinerates to buff immunes, since thatdirectly goes against what's stated in his kits. Neutralise as a whole is sketchy at best, since most champions with neutralise get their benefits when "stopping buffs due to Ability accuracy" an immunity is not ability accuracy, as mentioned above, other immunities exist thatdont trigger nodes and abilities.

Its the whole order of operations thing, just janks up the game, but I don't expect anything else. It won't ever change and I've just come to accept the fact it's incorrect.

You're still wrong. It's not incorrect at all.


And you haven't answered it. Is the reason there was no bleed placed on Colossus because he was immune, or because Nick was unable to place it?

If Colossus had empowered immunity (gain power if immune to an effect) , then in the case above(Nick has 100% concussion) , would he gain power when Nick strikes him with a medium?

It’s a possibility

Average_Desi

EdisonLaw said:

Average_Desi said:

Vegeta9001 said:

Average_Desi said:

Vegeta9001 said:

Average_Desi said:

Terra said:

Average_Desi said:

EdisonLaw said:

Cuber2906 said:

i faced the same issue where i used black widows father against mystic black widow( ik he's called red guardian), and the says whenever a buff expres she gets power but as he's buff immune tht shudnt be an issue rht? but still dex gave her power for some reason.

It's a weird interaction. For example, even Red Guardian gets incinerated by Wiccan if he is neutralized, despite being buff immune

Yeah that's how it works. Not a bug

No buffs can be gained for him...
Gets punished for one attempting to be given...
Doesn't seem right.

This discussion has been done to death my friend. There's pages and pages of explanation in other threads. But to be able to understand that, stop thinking of Red guardian as a science champ who is getting punished by a mystic champs.

Instead only look at the abilities in isolation and think about the interaction

If you're looking solely at the abilities like you insist, wiccan applies incinerates when buffs fail to apply due to Ability accuracy or Wiccans own immunities. Red Guardians buff immunity should not trigger incinerates since it is neither of those two things.

What you're implying would be the same as having conflictor give power to a Colossus for example when you try to bleed him. Because even though he is bleed immune, you tried to bleed him.

It's a good thing you brought Colossus into the picture.


Imagine a scenario with Nick Fury against Colossus. Suppose Nick has a 100% concussion. Now, if he were to do a medium, Colossus would not gain a bleed right? Was that because Colossus is immune ? Or because Nick was not able to apply the bleed in the first place?

Quite easy, if it says "immune" it's because of the immunity, if it doesn't say "immune" it's due to the concussion meaning the bleed didn't apply due to AAR. The point is simple, some neutralise champs get bonuses for failing to prevent buffs in anyway, wiccandoes not, he gains bonuses/incinerates by preventing buffs with A. His own immunities, or B. Lowered ability accuracy, so he shouldnt apply incinerates to buff immunes, since thatdirectly goes against what's stated in his kits. Neutralise as a whole is sketchy at best, since most champions with neutralise get their benefits when "stopping buffs due to Ability accuracy" an immunity is not ability accuracy, as mentioned above, other immunities exist thatdont trigger nodes and abilities.

Its the whole order of operations thing, just janks up the game, but I don't expect anything else. It won't ever change and I've just come to accept the fact it's incorrect.

You're still wrong. It's not incorrect at all.


And you haven't answered it. Is the reason there was no bleed placed on Colossus because he was immune, or because Nick was unable to place it?

If Colossus had empowered immunity (gain power if immune to an effect) , then in the case above(Nick has 100% concussion) , would he gain power when Nick strikes him with a medium?

It’s a possibility

He won't gain power. It's testable .