Can anyone please give a logical explanation for why NC and Silk can dodge Photon, but not S99?

hungryhungrybbq

That's it pretty much.. in the title:)
He's Buff Immune - so no Dexterity to fail
And "he cannot be struck while dashing back..."
What am I missing here?

spiderbites0196

Because he and other buff immune champs still use the dex mastery to avoid hits. NC and silk’s dodge are baked into their kits, not the mastery. It’s the same reason buff immune champs can still be affected by neutralise, even though they are immune to the buff, they are still triggering it.
If there was no dex to fail, how would SP99 get the debuff pause effect?

Skalamenko

I think if you turn off the dexterity Mastery, he will be able to dex her.

Average_Desi

spiderbites0196 said:

Because he and other buff immune champs still use the dex mastery to avoid hits. NC and silk’s dodge are baked into their kits, not the mastery. It’s the same reason buff immune champs can still be affected by neutralise, even though they are immune to the buff, they are still triggering it.
If there was no dex to fail, how would SP99 get the debuff pause effect?

Your first point is correct. But the neutralize portion is wrong.

As for s99 debuff pause, he will get it even if he doesn't have Dex. He has it in his base kit

hungryhungrybbq

spiderbites0196 said:

Because he and other buff immune champs still use the dex mastery to avoid hits. NC and silk’s dodge are baked into their kits, not the mastery. It’s the same reason buff immune champs can still be affected by neutralise, even though they are immune to the buff, they are still triggering it.
If there was no dex to fail, how would SP99 get the debuff pause effect?

Please explain why you believe NC is different.. there's an argument for Silk because it explicitly says she doesn't use the Dexterity Mastery
It's also baked into S99's kit.. that's the whole reason I'm questioning it.. not be because he's Buff Immune

hungryhungrybbq

It's identical essentially NC and S99.. they both even have a beneficial effect when "dodging an attack this way.." it's nearly verbatim

hungryhungrybbq

Skalamenko said:

I think if you turn off the dexterity Mastery, he will be able to dex her.

That's a good shout actually.. I'll test that, but of course there's a unit cost
But the question still remains why NC and not him? Let's take Silk out of the equation altogether

Why would S99 mastery fail, but NC not?

hungryhungrybbq

Is there going to be something similar to "Guaranteed" vs "Cannot" again? 😂
"is not struck" vs "cannot be struck"? 🙃

hungryhungrybbq

If S99 is "fixed" I will take credit.. if NC is "fixed" I will not 😅😂

Pikolu

It's because of how their dodge mechanic was implemented. Silk and Nightcrawler have different implementations where dexterity doesn't override their dodge, while QS, Spidey99, and everyone else with a built in dodge have it get overwritten by dexterity. It is something kabam doesn't want to change and if they did change it, IIRC they would bring silk and NC in line with everyone else so they also get hecked by dex.

hungryhungrybbq

Pikolu said:

It's because of how their dodge mechanic was implemented. Silk and Nightcrawler have different implementations where dexterity doesn't override their dodge, while QS, Spidey99, and everyone else with a built in dodge have it get overwritten by dexterity. It is something kabam doesn't want to change and if they did change it, IIRC they would bring silk and NC in line with everyone else so they also get hecked by dex.

Yeah, I was wondering it's based on *when* the kits were done (because NCs kit is now newer than S99 - because rework)
Like essentially.. it's an unspoken difference in the kits.. the newer kits having the better version of the ability

I guess I just don't like that "is not struck by attacks" proves false here

PT_99

Because it's bad design

Description to say buff immune
But in fights, "dex failed" 😃😃

EdisonLaw

PT_99 said:

Because it's bad design

Description to say buff immune
But in fights, "dex failed" 😃😃

Same with neutralize vs buff immunity. Like Red Guardian gets incinerated by Wiccan if dex fails, even though he is immune

EdisonLaw

Because Silk, Nightcrawler's descriptions say when dashing back, they cannot be struck by attacks.

Lokx

EdisonLaw said:

PT_99 said:

Because it's bad design

Description to say buff immune
But in fights, "dex failed" 😃😃

Same with neutralize vs buff immunity. Like Red Guardian gets incinerated by Wiccan if dex fails, even though he is immune

I agree it’s annoying, especially since wiccan is a mystic and debuff immune is a ability mostly/only? Found in the science class which directly opposes mystics. However i think the explanation is that in the code the buff activates first then the neutralise activates and then buff immunity activates.

This is because to be immune to something the ability needs to trigger in the first place so the code can detect that and immunity can kick in to stop it from activating. And because it first needs to recognise a buff has been activated, neutralise detects the buff and along side immunity removes it triggering the incinerate.

SirGamesBond

It sure looks like s99 should work because of the text discription

Although he have to trigger Dex to do his pausing debuff thing. The interaction with neutralize will still take effect in this case.
BUT, if he can't be struck while dashing backwards. He shouldn't.

Let photon fail his Dex and let him dodge back without getting hit.

hungryhungrybbq

EdisonLaw said:

Because Silk, Nightcrawler's descriptions say when dashing back, they cannot be struck by attacks.

I think you didn't read what I posted with highlighted screenshots?
It says that in S99 kit as well.. that's basically my whole confusion here

hungryhungrybbq

SirGamesBond said:

It sure looks like s99 should work because of the text discription

Although he have to trigger Dex to do his pausing debuff thing. The interaction with neutralize will still take effect in this case.
BUT, if he can't be struck while dashing backwards. He shouldn't.

Let photon fail his Dex and let him dodge back without getting hit.

He doesn't need to trigger Dex for that ability actually
It says "when he dodges an attack this way" referring to dodging back and not being struck lol
It's actually super similar to NC kit in language.. they both get a beneficial effect from "dodging an attack this way"

hungryhungrybbq

hungryhungrybbq said:

EdisonLaw said:

Because Silk, Nightcrawler's descriptions say when dashing back, they cannot be struck by attacks.

I think you didn't read what I posted with highlighted screenshots?
It says that in S99 kit as well.. that's basically my whole confusion here

But I've since removed Silk from the discussion because her kit specifically mentions that she does not use the Dexterity *Mastery* not just the buff - here's the thing though.. NC has no such language in his kit

So, I've focused the discussion on him.. there is nothing written in his description that separates him from S99 regarding this ability to not be struck while dashing back - thats the main question I'm asking the community and/or Kabam to explain

It's a silent/mysterious difference in their kits that is completely unlisted as far as I can tell and I don't think that makes sense

hungryhungrybbq

PT_99 said:

Because it's bad design

Description to say buff immune
But in fights, "dex failed" 😃😃

Haha.. I agree actually and Wiccan (as listed here above) is a good example - though in the case of Photon she is actually failing the Mastery (which is something I fundamentally disagree with anyway.. champ kits digging into our mastery builds and disabling part of them - but that's a whole 'nother topic lol)

hungryhungrybbq

Lokx said:

EdisonLaw said:

PT_99 said:

Because it's bad design

Description to say buff immune
But in fights, "dex failed" 😃😃

Same with neutralize vs buff immunity. Like Red Guardian gets incinerated by Wiccan if dex fails, even though he is immune

I agree it’s annoying, especially since wiccan is a mystic and debuff immune is a ability mostly/only? Found in the science class which directly opposes mystics. However i think the explanation is that in the code the buff activates first then the neutralise activates and then buff immunity activates.

This is because to be immune to something the ability needs to trigger in the first place so the code can detect that and immunity can kick in to stop it from activating. And because it first needs to recognise a buff has been activated, neutralise detects the buff and along side immunity removes it triggering the incinerate.

SirGamesBond said:

It sure looks like s99 should work because of the text discription

Although he have to trigger Dex to do his pausing debuff thing. The interaction with neutralize will still take effect in this case.
BUT, if he can't be struck while dashing backwards. He shouldn't.

Let photon fail his Dex and let him dodge back without getting hit.

Right, the point is that while S99 doesn't say anything in his kit about "not using the Dexterity Mastery".. he actually doesn't need it at all.. so the code in a fight vs Photon is requiring him to attempt to use Dexterity Mastery and have it fail.. but he doesn't need it to dodge.. and regardless "is not hit while dashing back" just isn't accurate here.. so we need a kit adjustment or we need a description adjustment imo

Because it's completely misleading and/or confusing if someone compares his kit to NC, for example, and then attempts to use the same ability that NC against Photon, but it doesn't work

hungryhungrybbq

SirGamesBond said:

It sure looks like s99 should work because of the text discription

Although he have to trigger Dex to do his pausing debuff thing. The interaction with neutralize will still take effect in this case.
BUT, if he can't be struck while dashing backwards. He shouldn't.

Let photon fail his Dex and let him dodge back without getting hit.

But yeah, agree here.. point is simple: Yes his Dexterity Mastery can be failed by Photon.. but he doesn't require Dex to not be hit by any attack as per his description - "is not struck by attacks" there's no caviat listed here
Therefore, I say it's a bug that needs to be fixed (and yes, same for QS or anyone else with this ability)

hungryhungrybbq

hungryhungrybbq said:

SirGamesBond said:

It sure looks like s99 should work because of the text discription

Although he have to trigger Dex to do his pausing debuff thing. The interaction with neutralize will still take effect in this case.
BUT, if he can't be struck while dashing backwards. He shouldn't.

Let photon fail his Dex and let him dodge back without getting hit.

But yeah, agree here.. point is simple: Yes his Dexterity Mastery can be failed by Photon.. but he doesn't require Dex to not be hit by any attack as per his description - "is not struck by attacks" there's no caviat listed here
Therefore, I say it's a bug that needs to be fixed (and yes, same for QS or anyone else with this ability)

The simple fact that if the Dexterity Mastery is removed from your build he can dodge her attacks in Pure Light is all the proof you need to say that he doesn't require the Mastery to avoid the attacks.. therefore, by failing it he should not be struck as a result.. as he clearly doesn't rely on it to avoid said attacks
It's simple: it's an erroneous interaction or coding error and needs to be corrected (as does Wiccans interactions with Buff Immunity imo as well - since it was mentioned here)

Ortoun

hungryhungrybbq said:

hungryhungrybbq said:

SirGamesBond said:

It sure looks like s99 should work because of the text discription

Although he have to trigger Dex to do his pausing debuff thing. The interaction with neutralize will still take effect in this case.
BUT, if he can't be struck while dashing backwards. He shouldn't.

Let photon fail his Dex and let him dodge back without getting hit.

But yeah, agree here.. point is simple: Yes his Dexterity Mastery can be failed by Photon.. but he doesn't require Dex to not be hit by any attack as per his description - "is not struck by attacks" there's no caviat listed here
Therefore, I say it's a bug that needs to be fixed (and yes, same for QS or anyone else with this ability)

The simple fact that if the Dexterity Mastery is removed from your build he can dodge her attacks in Pure Light is all the proof you need to say that he doesn't require the Mastery to avoid the attacks.. therefore, by failing it he should not be struck as a result.. as he clearly doesn't rely on it to avoid said attacks
It's simple: it's an erroneous interaction or coding error and needs to be corrected (as does Wiccans interactions with Buff Immunity imo as well - since it was mentioned here)

They have already confirmed several times that the neutralize interaction with buff immunity is intended. If you think about it, it makes sense. Ability accuracy has to be the first check, just by the way it works. Something has to try to happen before it happens. All buff immune champs, except Titania get something out of being immune to a buff (shield charges, debuff pause, pym particles, whatever) all of the neutralize interactions occur when the buff fails to trigger, and obviously the buffs have to try to trigger for those champs to utilize their abilities. Immunity has to come at the end, after the buff has triggered and when it attempts to be applied.

Average_Desi

hungryhungrybbq said:

hungryhungrybbq said:

SirGamesBond said:

It sure looks like s99 should work because of the text discription

Although he have to trigger Dex to do his pausing debuff thing. The interaction with neutralize will still take effect in this case.
BUT, if he can't be struck while dashing backwards. He shouldn't.

Let photon fail his Dex and let him dodge back without getting hit.

But yeah, agree here.. point is simple: Yes his Dexterity Mastery can be failed by Photon.. but he doesn't require Dex to not be hit by any attack as per his description - "is not struck by attacks" there's no caviat listed here
Therefore, I say it's a bug that needs to be fixed (and yes, same for QS or anyone else with this ability)

The simple fact that if the Dexterity Mastery is removed from your build he can dodge her attacks in Pure Light is all the proof you need to say that he doesn't require the Mastery to avoid the attacks.. therefore, by failing it he should not be struck as a result.. as he clearly doesn't rely on it to avoid said attacks
It's simple: it's an erroneous interaction or coding error and needs to be corrected (as does Wiccans interactions with Buff Immunity imo as well - since it was mentioned here)

Firstly, there's nothing wrong with wiccan and buff immune.

As for the other, I think for s99, his ability is replaced by dex. And so when dex fails he gets hit. For silk she does not have the dex mastery. It's removed .

And why nightcrawler functions the other way, idk. I guess for him too dex is removed? But he gets the dex buff. But in pure light he doesn't get the dex buff

hungryhungrybbq

Average_Desi said:

hungryhungrybbq said:

hungryhungrybbq said:

SirGamesBond said:

It sure looks like s99 should work because of the text discription

Although he have to trigger Dex to do his pausing debuff thing. The interaction with neutralize will still take effect in this case.
BUT, if he can't be struck while dashing backwards. He shouldn't.

Let photon fail his Dex and let him dodge back without getting hit.

But yeah, agree here.. point is simple: Yes his Dexterity Mastery can be failed by Photon.. but he doesn't require Dex to not be hit by any attack as per his description - "is not struck by attacks" there's no caviat listed here
Therefore, I say it's a bug that needs to be fixed (and yes, same for QS or anyone else with this ability)

The simple fact that if the Dexterity Mastery is removed from your build he can dodge her attacks in Pure Light is all the proof you need to say that he doesn't require the Mastery to avoid the attacks.. therefore, by failing it he should not be struck as a result.. as he clearly doesn't rely on it to avoid said attacks
It's simple: it's an erroneous interaction or coding error and needs to be corrected (as does Wiccans interactions with Buff Immunity imo as well - since it was mentioned here)

Firstly, there's nothing wrong with wiccan and buff immune.

As for the other, I think for s99, his ability is replaced by dex. And so when dex fails he gets hit. For silk she does not have the dex mastery. It's removed .

And why nightcrawler functions the other way, idk. I guess for him too dex is removed? But he gets the dex buff. But in pure light he doesn't get the dex buff

Right, NC and S99 is the question.. why do they function differently when their written description is the same - that's the part no one has answered
Or I suppose the ultimate question here is: Which kit is working as intended against a Dexterity Fail? S99 or NC?.. because is it stands according to written description one of them is incorrect

hungryhungrybbq

Imo, we either should see "Fixed and issue where S99 was triggering the Dexterity Mastery..." or "Fixed an issue where NC was not triggering the Dexterity Mastery.."

But if course, I'd prefer the former because I still believe both of their "cannot/is not hit while dashing back" needs to be honored

WednesdayLength

Average_Desi said:

spiderbites0196 said:

Because he and other buff immune champs still use the dex mastery to avoid hits. NC and silk’s dodge are baked into their kits, not the mastery. It’s the same reason buff immune champs can still be affected by neutralise, even though they are immune to the buff, they are still triggering it.
If there was no dex to fail, how would SP99 get the debuff pause effect?

Your first point is correct. But the neutralize portion is wrong.

As for s99 debuff pause, he will get it even if he doesn't have Dex. He has it in his base kit

The neutralise point is literally right

Average_Desi

WednesdayLength said:

Average_Desi said:

spiderbites0196 said:

Because he and other buff immune champs still use the dex mastery to avoid hits. NC and silk’s dodge are baked into their kits, not the mastery. It’s the same reason buff immune champs can still be affected by neutralise, even though they are immune to the buff, they are still triggering it.
If there was no dex to fail, how would SP99 get the debuff pause effect?

Your first point is correct. But the neutralize portion is wrong.

As for s99 debuff pause, he will get it even if he doesn't have Dex. He has it in his base kit

The neutralise point is literally right

Wrong quote I guess

SlayerOfGods

What actually bothers me is the fact it doesn't say "Dexterity", "Dodge", "Evade" or literally anything when Silk Dexes, unlike other champs. There's no text indication that she's Dexed an attack. Other champs have some text pop up, even if they aren't using the Mastery or gaining the buff.

I've brought this up with Kabam several times and it just seems like they don't care about that specifically. Pretty annoying.

I don't wanna derail the thread, though. But yeah. This whole thing is very convoluted in more ways than one.

Perfect_jab

Have always felt like this was the stupidest Fing thing ive heard explained. Lazy an stupid. An with the buff immune an neutralize an fail to trigger BS. Ive question the whole cant be hit while dashing back has never worked, dont even know why the words were even added into the kit. Taking the whole buff immune an purpose for buff immune champs and completely taking it away. But nothing will come of it an it will be ignored. Kabam logic.