A lot of buffed champs have had their counters countered. Its unimaginative to make a champ better by making their counters ineffective. you can still improve a champs damage and utility without making counters ineffective. I assume they'll make all robots champs armour break immune in the future. Class advantage and counters are their for a reason
Honestly just make sentinel susceptible to armor breaks against cosmic champs. That shouldn’t cause an uproar as it’s a minor change only affecting an advantageous class. Once again, if colossus can be armor broken by techs there no reason why sentinel shouldn’t be approached in the same way.
You're missing the fact that in no way, shape, or form is Colossus trying to be a defender, whilst Sentinel clearly is. Slapping the ability for cosmics to have even more options completely defeats the purpose
Definitely think that part of his kit should be looked at. Makes no sense for him to not be armor broken, doesnt fit in any lore , its not like its the carbon fiber/synthetic version of sentinel
Definitely think that part of his kit should be looked at. Makes no sense for him to not be armor broken, doesnt fit in any lore , its not like its the carbon fiber/synthetic version of sentinel
Ah yes lore. In a game where a little girl with arrows is one of the better counters for a multiverse conquering Maestro
Definitely think that part of his kit should be looked at. Makes no sense for him to not be armor broken, doesnt fit in any lore , its not like its the carbon fiber/synthetic version of sentinel
Ah yes lore. In a game where a little girl with arrows is one of the better counters for a multiverse conquering Maestro
A little squirrel defeated thanos with a slingshot that bounces acorns around.
He doesn't "counter tons of cosmic champions" any more than Luke Cage being bleed immune counters skill champions. His best counters are champions with armor control, predominantly cosmic champions like BRB, vp etc.
I got it with magneto being able to counter metal champs, but the growing number of champs countering outside of their disadvantage isn’t a good direction personally.
This reminds me a lot of when Galan released and he was Nullify/Stagger/Fate Seal immune. Champions that upset the class balance aren’t necessarily a new concept. I’m not saying it’s a good idea, but we have seen this before.
Galans best counters are all mystics, how does that break the class wheel
It’s kinda dumb tbh. Sentinel buff should have countered ALL mutant champs very effectively. “Sentinels are designed to hunt mutants”,..however they are susceptible to attacks on machinery/ robotics “ The buffs a bit too far off base from the marvel narrative,…and from my understanding this still is a representation of a marvel game,…correct?
Sentinels are only good at hunting mutants because of their numbers. They get absolutely bodied 1 on 1.
Nimrod is the actual ultimate mutant hunting weapon
What do you think about galan or hulking, both counters mystics nullify effects, or voy or SIM, both counted neutralize effects, what about baron zemo or Jabari panther, both counter mutant that punishes puryfi, so sentinel counter armor break is not the end of mcoc.
All of the cosmic champions you listed are still weak to mystic champions, this is such a ridiculous argument. The game is moving in the direction of different classes having a variety of effects to counter the class they're good against and there isn't a single cosmic champion in the game that's immune to all forms of buff control
Make it so only cosmic champs can armor break sentinel
@GrassKnuckles fair enough, good point there. Now I think about it he was showcased to be a defender. Funny enough my previous comment about nimrod armor break resistance can actually be used to counter myself. He is basically immune to armor break yet he can still be handled by cosmics and also nullify/fateseal, the same goes for sentinel. I’d change my opinion on the poll if I could now.
Make it so only cosmic champs can armor break sentinel
@WednesdayLength excellent point there, there are alternative methods to certain champs , especially hulkling who is wrecked by all mystical abilities apart from nullify. There are also alternatives to armor breaks so it really could be worse
I feel like people are confusing “doesn’t work against” with “is countered by.” Armor break doesn’t work against Sentinel. Nullify doesn’t work against Galan. But that’s not a counter. A counter *punishes* those mechanics. Mr. Negative counters nullify. Dragon Man counters armor break. Human Torch counters the existence of non-incinerate immune mystics.
As mentioned above, nobody says Luke Cage counters bleed just because he’s immune to it, and bleed is one of the most common methods the skill class does damage through. Same with Thing, Nefaria, Photon, and Sandman. We all just said “okay, don’t use bleed reliant champs against bleed immune champions” and moved on.
That’s all there is to Sentinel. He has plenty of counters if you look past the armor break reliant champs. He’s beefy, but his specials are the same they’ve always been and are easily dexed. Just use one of the many other counter options and you’re fine.
@GrassKnuckles fair enough, good point there. Now I think about it he was showcased to be a defender. Funny enough my previous comment about nimrod armor break resistance can actually be used to counter myself. He is basically immune to armor break yet he can still be handled by cosmics and also nullify/fateseal, the same goes for sentinel. I’d change my opinion on the poll if I could now.
L for being easily coerced into changing your opinion by whales. Don't let them easily gaslight you like that.
I understand if they make him armor break immune but they should make an exception where he could be armor broken only by cosmic champions because at the moment in defense he counters so many cosmic champions even though he should be at a disadvantage against them. Especially Medusa and her ability to shut off robots she can't stand a chance against sentinel.
And, what is your argument exactly? That Tech champions shouldn't be immune to Armor Breaks against Cosmics? Why wasn't this argument mentioned when Nimrod ignored the potency of armor breaks, or when Future Ant-man just switches over to Passives to ignore the armor breaks, or how Lady Deathstrike can become flat-out armor break immune?
It is only in the context of "BG defender not able to be easily defeated by BG attacker" that this argument is coming up.
I personally don't like BGs, and I personally don't like how Defender design typically defaults to allowing a class disadvantage to ignore a key ability that the class advantage possesses.
BUT, I 100% understand that this type of champion design is going to continue and has a clear purpose.
If you want BGs to be an ongoing game mode in this live service game (and clearly, since you reference defense, you like playing BGs or competitve modes), then this type of champion design (ie. Attackers, Defenders, Counterattackers, Counterdefenders) are intrinsic to that.
I understand if they make him armor break immune but they should make an exception where he could be armor broken only by cosmic champions because at the moment in defense he counters so many cosmic champions even though he should be at a disadvantage against them. Especially Medusa and her ability to shut off robots she can't stand a chance against sentinel.
Lady Deathstrike can become flat-out armor break immune?
@GrassKnuckles fair enough, good point there. Now I think about it he was showcased to be a defender. Funny enough my previous comment about nimrod armor break resistance can actually be used to counter myself. He is basically immune to armor break yet he can still be handled by cosmics and also nullify/fateseal, the same goes for sentinel. I’d change my opinion on the poll if I could now.
L for being easily coerced into changing your opinion by whales. Don't let them easily gaslight you like that.
I understand if they make him armor break immune but they should make an exception where he could be armor broken only by cosmic champions because at the moment in defense he counters so many cosmic champions even though he should be at a disadvantage against them. Especially Medusa and her ability to shut off robots she can't stand a chance against sentinel.
Lady Deathstrike can become flat-out armor break immune?
How?
It happens during her regeneration phase (she also becomes immune to rupture as well). Its not really something that can be maintained for the majority of the fight, but it is something she has.
I understand if they make him armor break immune but they should make an exception where he could be armor broken only by cosmic champions because at the moment in defense he counters so many cosmic champions even though he should be at a disadvantage against them. Especially Medusa and her ability to shut off robots she can't stand a chance against sentinel.
Lady Deathstrike can become flat-out armor break immune?
How?
It happens during her regeneration phase (she also becomes immune to rupture as well). Its not really something that can be maintained for the majority of the fight, but it is something she has.
This reminds me a lot of when Galan released and he was Nullify/Stagger/Fate Seal immune. Champions that upset the class balance aren’t necessarily a new concept. I’m not saying it’s a good idea, but we have seen this before.
Galans best counters are all mystics, how does that break the class wheel
I never said that Galan’s best counters aren’t mystics. I said that Galan, a Cosmic champion, is immune to three abilities the Mystic class is specifically known for. That’s not typically how class relationships go.
This reminds me a lot of when Galan released and he was Nullify/Stagger/Fate Seal immune. Champions that upset the class balance aren’t necessarily a new concept. I’m not saying it’s a good idea, but we have seen this before.
Galans best counters are all mystics, how does that break the class wheel
I never said that Galan’s best counters aren’t mystics. I said that Galan, a Cosmic champion, is immune to three abilities the Mystic class is specifically known for. That’s not typically how class relationships go.
But it is how they have to go if the game is going to keep going.
This game really sells two things: champion acquisition and champion power. Everything falls into one of those two categories (okay, there’s also cosmetics like profile pictures but we’re skipping over those).
If Kabam never made cosmics who weren’t susceptible to nullify, then there would have never been a reason for mystic utility like neutralize and atrophy. We’d all just be seeing them as worse versions of nullify. Why would I need to put in the effort of learning Tigra when Doom does everything? There are plenty of things like this throughout the game.
The game cannot be bound by something as simple as the class wheel when it comes to champion design. You can’t get ten years of champion designs out of rock paper scissors with extra steps.
Make it so only cosmic champs can armor break sentinel
He is AWFUL to play against in BGs, not because he's hard, but just because every single freaking time it just always runs out the clock and he's still there standing at the end.
Not only that, but the 8.2 and 8.1 paths and bosses that have him are now torturous when they never were meant to be.
This has been discussed before, and the simplified version is that class advantage is not meant to be universal, because if it was always true that all Cosmics are supposed to be always good against all Techs, and all Techs are always supposed to be good against all Mutants in all respects, that leaves nowhere for RPG mechanics to go. Class relationships and class advantage are supposed to be general rules and guidelines, but not ones with no exceptions or counters. Sometimes you're going to get a Mutant champ that just happens to have the sort of tools that many Techs will find annoying; sometimes you're going to have a Mystic that ignores one of the more powerful or common capabilities of a bunch of Science champs. That orthogonality is what makes the RPG mechanics more rich and interesting. But if all cosmics had to be strong against all techs and weak against all mystics, it would be basically pointless to even have RPG mechanics. You could ignore the RPG mechanics and just look at the class to know who to bring to every fight.
Class is not the most important thing. It is one thing among many in the current incarnation of the game. The objection "X is class Y, so it should always be strong against everyone in class Z" simply isn't a rule that is always followed, because there is no such rule. And it is important to note for any purists who think there should be, the entire notion of "class identity" where abilities should follow class and obey class relationships is itself not an original design idea. It was something that came long significantly after launch. The idea that class should mean more than class advantage is a post-launch evolution, just as RPG emphasis is a further downstream evolution of the game. Neither is anything but an idea made up at the time from out of whole cloth.
Make it so only cosmic champs can armor break sentinel
While I agree with that ^ this whole point that Sentinel doesn't have any true good counters anymore is pretty rage inducing. ESPECIALLY when they keep him in Chp 8 quests with nodes that are supposed to help you but are now completely negated and he's just a frustrating champing to fight against.
This reminds me a lot of when Galan released and he was Nullify/Stagger/Fate Seal immune. Champions that upset the class balance aren’t necessarily a new concept. I’m not saying it’s a good idea, but we have seen this before.
Galans best counters are all mystics, how does that break the class wheel
I never said that Galan’s best counters aren’t mystics. I said that Galan, a Cosmic champion, is immune to three abilities the Mystic class is specifically known for. That’s not typically how class relationships go.
I just want to clarify that I have absolutely zero problems with Galan being Nullify/Stagger/Fate Seal immune. If anything I think it doesn’t matter, he gains Planetary Mass when he gains buffs, not when he has them, so removing Buffs off of him wouldn’t stop his Harvest, which is the main thing to be concerned about. Making him immune to traditional Buff removal effects helps place focus on the mechanic that will actually work against him, that being preventing him from gaining the Buffs in the first place with Neutralize.
Sentinel is meant to be a new powerful defender. Not giving him an immunity to Armor Break would severely impact his ability to fulfill that role. I’m sure we’ll see many new counters to Sentinel in the future, just like we have with Photon, Bullseye, Serpent, etc. in the past.
I wasn’t using the Galan example as a way to say that making Sentinel immune to Armor Break is a bad idea, I was just trying to say that this entire concept of “champion with class disadvantage counters ability of champion with class advantage” isn’t entirely new. It worked out in the past, and it will work out again. Until then, though, he will remain a very frustrating champion to deal with.
Comments
Nimrod is the actual ultimate mutant hunting weapon
As mentioned above, nobody says Luke Cage counters bleed just because he’s immune to it, and bleed is one of the most common methods the skill class does damage through. Same with Thing, Nefaria, Photon, and Sandman. We all just said “okay, don’t use bleed reliant champs against bleed immune champions” and moved on.
That’s all there is to Sentinel. He has plenty of counters if you look past the armor break reliant champs. He’s beefy, but his specials are the same they’ve always been and are easily dexed. Just use one of the many other counter options and you’re fine.
It is only in the context of "BG defender not able to be easily defeated by BG attacker" that this argument is coming up.
I personally don't like BGs, and I personally don't like how Defender design typically defaults to allowing a class disadvantage to ignore a key ability that the class advantage possesses.
BUT, I 100% understand that this type of champion design is going to continue and has a clear purpose.
If you want BGs to be an ongoing game mode in this live service game (and clearly, since you reference defense, you like playing BGs or competitve modes), then this type of champion design (ie. Attackers, Defenders, Counterattackers, Counterdefenders) are intrinsic to that.
This game really sells two things: champion acquisition and champion power. Everything falls into one of those two categories (okay, there’s also cosmetics like profile pictures but we’re skipping over those).
If Kabam never made cosmics who weren’t susceptible to nullify, then there would have never been a reason for mystic utility like neutralize and atrophy. We’d all just be seeing them as worse versions of nullify. Why would I need to put in the effort of learning Tigra when Doom does everything? There are plenty of things like this throughout the game.
The game cannot be bound by something as simple as the class wheel when it comes to champion design. You can’t get ten years of champion designs out of rock paper scissors with extra steps.
Not only that, but the 8.2 and 8.1 paths and bosses that have him are now torturous when they never were meant to be.
Class is not the most important thing. It is one thing among many in the current incarnation of the game. The objection "X is class Y, so it should always be strong against everyone in class Z" simply isn't a rule that is always followed, because there is no such rule. And it is important to note for any purists who think there should be, the entire notion of "class identity" where abilities should follow class and obey class relationships is itself not an original design idea. It was something that came long significantly after launch. The idea that class should mean more than class advantage is a post-launch evolution, just as RPG emphasis is a further downstream evolution of the game. Neither is anything but an idea made up at the time from out of whole cloth.
Sentinel is meant to be a new powerful defender. Not giving him an immunity to Armor Break would severely impact his ability to fulfill that role. I’m sure we’ll see many new counters to Sentinel in the future, just like we have with Photon, Bullseye, Serpent, etc. in the past.
I wasn’t using the Galan example as a way to say that making Sentinel immune to Armor Break is a bad idea, I was just trying to say that this entire concept of “champion with class disadvantage counters ability of champion with class advantage” isn’t entirely new. It worked out in the past, and it will work out again. Until then, though, he will remain a very frustrating champion to deal with.