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Data analysis [The Winter Soldier Test]

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    JohnLocke117JohnLocke117 Posts: 500 ★★★
    You are contradicting yourself here. You said these numbers are not indicative of how good a champion is but still proceed to judge them on that basis.
    As for GR, I'm a big fan of him and people don't use him to get WS down in minimum hits. We use him for something else.
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    NojokejaymNojokejaym Posts: 3,912 ★★★★★
    Having them all at r1 is perfectly fine tbh, he probably ranked up champs he Uhm likes atm, ain’t that why people play this game
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    EtjamaEtjama Posts: 7,981 ★★★★★
    RazorDevil said:

    UmbertoDelRio said:

    RazorDevil said:

    UmbertoDelRio said:

    UmbertoDelRio said:

    Mhh... You said you played sparky perfectly according to his ideal playstyle, which didn't mention for other champs also having an ideal playstyle.

    The equivalent of "no hits beneath 10 poise charges" to cap iw for example would be only heavies and heavy into sp2 with 5-6 kinetic charges to get the most out of his furies.

    I don't have the exact numbers right now, but as far as I remember his attack bonus from being kinetically charged + 5 charges fury should be substantially higher than sparkys attack bonus at 10 poise charges.

    It would only make sense to test either all the champs or none of the champs in their ideal set-up.

    To clarify: let's talk numbers for a second.

    Sparky at 10 poise charges (ideal set-up) gets an attack bonus of about 200%.

    Cap iw with his heavy fury at 5 kinetic potentials gets an attack bonus of 300%. Then while throwing an sp2 with the same set-up he'll have an overall attack bonus of 550%.
    And while throwing an sp3 with the same set-up he'll have an overall attack bonus of 500%.

    I would argue that the perfect set-up for cap makes a bigger difference for his damage output than the perfect set-up for sparky does.

    Maybe you just didn't mention doing that for cap, but I'd say if you didn't it would definitely make sense to repeat the test for cap under the same guidlines you used for sparky.
    Cap IW playstyle was parry heavy, no basic hits, 2 sp2s (both were crit). When I played Starky literally no hit was thrown under 10 poise charges. 550% of his base damage indeed, but his base damage is ****.
    Sparky's base attack is only slightly above cap's base attack, so I don't really get what you mean. The difference between their potential attack multipliers is massive compared to the difference between their base attacks.

    Testing cap with a natural parry-heavy until parry-heavy->sp2 playstyle would be the equivalent to also naturally dexing attacks with sparky and not having him at his full potential for every attack.
    So how do you propose I test Cap? And also, Cap's base attack is lower than Starky's, Starky with no poise charges deals 950 damage with his mediums for me, while Cap without kinetic charges deals 762 damage on a medium.
    He already said Sparky's base attack is higher.
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    The_OneThe_One Posts: 2,936 ★★★★
    How did you do 100 hits with a rank 1 SL?
    My rank 4 awakened with a mutant crit team takes 105-120 depending on crit RNG with out losing the combo
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    EtjamaEtjama Posts: 7,981 ★★★★★
    edited November 2019
    The_One said:

    How did you do 100 hits with a rank 1 SL?
    My rank 4 awakened with a mutant crit team takes 105-120 depending on crit RNG with out losing the combo

    Probably sig level. It scales all the way from around +17 attack to +44 attack. Plus, 5 star base attack is a little higher than a 4 star of the equivalent pi. (Although I know they're not at the same pi, it does mean that a 5* R1 base attack may be higher than you'd think.) Masteries come into play too. This guy's at level 60 and probably has all 60 mastery points available. He could have suicides for all we know (though according to the info, I'd guess he doesn't.)
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    AleorAleor Posts: 3,054 ★★★★★
    RazorDevil said:

    UmbertoDelRio said:

    UmbertoDelRio said:

    Mhh... You said you played sparky perfectly according to his ideal playstyle, which didn't mention for other champs also having an ideal playstyle.

    The equivalent of "no hits beneath 10 poise charges" to cap iw for example would be only heavies and heavy into sp2 with 5-6 kinetic charges to get the most out of his furies.

    I don't have the exact numbers right now, but as far as I remember his attack bonus from being kinetically charged + 5 charges fury should be substantially higher than sparkys attack bonus at 10 poise charges.

    It would only make sense to test either all the champs or none of the champs in their ideal set-up.

    To clarify: let's talk numbers for a second.

    Sparky at 10 poise charges (ideal set-up) gets an attack bonus of about 200%.

    Cap iw with his heavy fury at 5 kinetic potentials gets an attack bonus of 300%. Then while throwing an sp2 with the same set-up he'll have an overall attack bonus of 550%.
    And while throwing an sp3 with the same set-up he'll have an overall attack bonus of 500%.

    I would argue that the perfect set-up for cap makes a bigger difference for his damage output than the perfect set-up for sparky does.

    Maybe you just didn't mention doing that for cap, but I'd say if you didn't it would definitely make sense to repeat the test for cap under the same guidlines you used for sparky.
    Cap IW playstyle was parry heavy, no basic hits, 2 sp2s (both were crit). When I played Starky literally no hit was thrown under 10 poise charges. 550% of his base damage indeed, but his base damage is ****.
    So did you only do heavies with smse? Light attack has lower damage than heavy for most champs. I even think it's true for every champ, but never bothered to check
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    The_OneThe_One Posts: 2,936 ★★★★
    Etjama said:

    The_One said:

    How did you do 100 hits with a rank 1 SL?
    My rank 4 awakened with a mutant crit team takes 105-120 depending on crit RNG with out losing the combo

    Probably sig level. It scales all the way from around +17 attack to +44 attack. Plus, 5 star base attack is a little higher than a 4 star of the equivalent pi. (Although I know they're not at the same pi, it does mean that a 5* R1 base attack may be higher than you'd think.) Masteries come into play too. This guy's at level 60 and probably has all 60 mastery points available. He could have suicides for all we know (though according to the info, I'd guess he doesn't.)
    Mine is a rank 4 5* sig 80 and I'm level 60 with all available mastery points.
    I'm not saying he can't do it in 100 hits at rank 1, I'd just like to know how
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,671 Guardian
    UmbertoDelRio said:

    UmbertoDelRio said:

    Mhh... You said you played sparky perfectly according to his ideal playstyle, which didn't mention for other champs also having an ideal playstyle.

    The equivalent of "no hits beneath 10 poise charges" to cap iw for example would be only heavies and heavy into sp2 with 5-6 kinetic charges to get the most out of his furies.

    I don't have the exact numbers right now, but as far as I remember his attack bonus from being kinetically charged + 5 charges fury should be substantially higher than sparkys attack bonus at 10 poise charges.

    It would only make sense to test either all the champs or none of the champs in their ideal set-up.

    To clarify: let's talk numbers for a second.

    Sparky at 10 poise charges (ideal set-up) gets an attack bonus of about 200%.

    Cap iw with his heavy fury at 5 kinetic potentials gets an attack bonus of 300%. Then while throwing an sp2 with the same set-up he'll have an overall attack bonus of 550%.
    And while throwing an sp3 with the same set-up he'll have an overall attack bonus of 500%.

    I would argue that the perfect set-up for cap makes a bigger difference for his damage output than the perfect set-up for sparky does.

    Maybe you just didn't mention doing that for cap, but I'd say if you didn't it would definitely make sense to repeat the test for cap under the same guidlines you used for sparky.
    If we're talking numbers, Sparky at ten poise charges actually has an effective attack increase of about +336% above his base damage.

    This takes some math. While Cap gets attack bonuses which are relatively straight forward to calculate, Sparky gets both attack bonuses and critical rating bonuses. That means with each poise charge his attack rating goes up, and his chance to land criticals goes up. If we take his numbers at 5/65 (and no masteries) as a starting point, his attack is 2583, his critical rating is 944, and his critical damage rating is 1234. Against CR100 his critical damage is about 241%. At zero poise he lands crits about 32% of the time. That's his zero poise baseline. We can average out that critical rate and give his "baseline" damage as about 1.772 times his attack rating, or about 4577.3.

    As he increases poise, his attack rating goes up and his crit rate goes up, so that by ten charges he has an attack rating of 7749 (which is +200%) and a critical rating of 3776, which is about 65.4% chance to crit. So his attack rating is three times higher, but he's also landing crits twice as often. His averaged normalized attack rating becomes about 19946.8 or 4.36 times his baseline.

    In other words, on average, Sparky at ten poise charges will be dealing 4.36x as much damage as Sparky at zero poise charges, which means his damage acts (on average) as if he has about +336% attack.

    CapIW has higher peak damage, but it isn't really possible to achieve it constantly. Sparky can reach and then sustain numbers very close to 436% of his base damage. It is hard to not bounce between nine and ten poise charges, but that oscillation is sustainable, and averages to about 417% of base damage. Or phrased alternatively, +317% damage bonus.

    This doesn't factor in second-order effects, like the effects of armor. Most champions have some baseline armor, and in those situations Sparky will have an additional edge in effective damage because he delivers more of his damage through critical hits which ignore armor (of course, there are other rarer circumstances when critical hits are less effective, such as critical resistance situations or things like fighting Sinister).
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    The_OneThe_One Posts: 2,936 ★★★★
    UmbertoDelRio said:

    The_One said:

    Etjama said:

    The_One said:

    How did you do 100 hits with a rank 1 SL?
    My rank 4 awakened with a mutant crit team takes 105-120 depending on crit RNG with out losing the combo

    Probably sig level. It scales all the way from around +17 attack to +44 attack. Plus, 5 star base attack is a little higher than a 4 star of the equivalent pi. (Although I know they're not at the same pi, it does mean that a 5* R1 base attack may be higher than you'd think.) Masteries come into play too. This guy's at level 60 and probably has all 60 mastery points available. He could have suicides for all we know (though according to the info, I'd guess he doesn't.)
    Mine is a rank 4 5* sig 80 and I'm level 60 with all available mastery points.
    I'm not saying he can't do it in 100 hits at rank 1, I'd just like to know how
    For some reason OP only got ws down to 75% with any of the champs he tested. So his star lord took... Was it 100? 100 hits to get ws down to 75%, not to ko him.

    I think that's what you're puzzled about right now, apologies if I misunderstood your situation however.
    That makes more sense.
    I was certain a rank 1 5* couldn't ko him in 100 hits
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    LeoGnarleyardoLeoGnarleyardo Posts: 355 ★★
    Im curious about the Ghost rider fight, what sequence did you place your judgements. ??
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    JadedJaded Posts: 5,476 ★★★★★
    UmbertoDelRio said:

    DNA3000 said:

    UmbertoDelRio said:

    UmbertoDelRio said:

    Mhh... You said you played sparky perfectly according to his ideal playstyle, which didn't mention for other champs also having an ideal playstyle.

    The equivalent of "no hits beneath 10 poise charges" to cap iw for example would be only heavies and heavy into sp2 with 5-6 kinetic charges to get the most out of his furies.

    I don't have the exact numbers right now, but as far as I remember his attack bonus from being kinetically charged + 5 charges fury should be substantially higher than sparkys attack bonus at 10 poise charges.

    It would only make sense to test either all the champs or none of the champs in their ideal set-up.

    To clarify: let's talk numbers for a second.

    Sparky at 10 poise charges (ideal set-up) gets an attack bonus of about 200%.

    Cap iw with his heavy fury at 5 kinetic potentials gets an attack bonus of 300%. Then while throwing an sp2 with the same set-up he'll have an overall attack bonus of 550%.
    And while throwing an sp3 with the same set-up he'll have an overall attack bonus of 500%.

    I would argue that the perfect set-up for cap makes a bigger difference for his damage output than the perfect set-up for sparky does.

    Maybe you just didn't mention doing that for cap, but I'd say if you didn't it would definitely make sense to repeat the test for cap under the same guidlines you used for sparky.
    If we're talking numbers, Sparky at ten poise charges actually has an effective attack increase of about +336% above his base damage.

    This takes some math. While Cap gets attack bonuses which are relatively straight forward to calculate, Sparky gets both attack bonuses and critical rating bonuses. That means with each poise charge his attack rating goes up, and his chance to land criticals goes up. If we take his numbers at 5/65 (and no masteries) as a starting point, his attack is 2583, his critical rating is 944, and his critical damage rating is 1234. Against CR100 his critical damage is about 241%. At zero poise he lands crits about 32% of the time. That's his zero poise baseline. We can average out that critical rate and give his "baseline" damage as about 1.772 times his attack rating, or about 4577.3.

    As he increases poise, his attack rating goes up and his crit rate goes up, so that by ten charges he has an attack rating of 7749 (which is +200%) and a critical rating of 3776, which is about 65.4% chance to crit. So his attack rating is three times higher, but he's also landing crits twice as often. His averaged normalized attack rating becomes about 19946.8 or 4.36 times his baseline.

    In other words, on average, Sparky at ten poise charges will be dealing 4.36x as much damage as Sparky at zero poise charges, which means his damage acts (on average) as if he has about +336% attack.

    CapIW has higher peak damage, but it isn't really possible to achieve it constantly. Sparky can reach and then sustain numbers very close to 436% of his base damage. It is hard to not bounce between nine and ten poise charges, but that oscillation is sustainable, and averages to about 417% of base damage. Or phrased alternatively, +317% damage bonus.

    This doesn't factor in second-order effects, like the effects of armor. Most champions have some baseline armor, and in those situations Sparky will have an additional edge in effective damage because he delivers more of his damage through critical hits which ignore armor (of course, there are other rarer circumstances when critical hits are less effective, such as critical resistance situations or things like fighting Sinister).
    I mean... Thanks for the detailed evaluation lol. Really appreciate that, don't get me wrong.

    I was actively avoiding to talk damage, though, instead I was only focusing on base attack and base attack increases/multipliers.

    Why? Well, because first of all, heck yeah a max sig 5/65 sparky will definitely consistently outdamage a 5/65 cap iw as you've shown in numbers.

    However OP's test was seemingly solely focused on, without further information, what I assumed to be unduped 5* r1 versions. I thought about trying to factor in sparkys sig and scrapped that, not only because I never could have done this as good as you, but mostly because I was more about questioning OP's testing conditions for cap in regards to the peak conditions he set for sparky.

    And second of all, directly comparing their damage comes really close to directly comparing them overall, which supposedly wasn't what OP tried to show.

    I'd still be team cap on that one, though. My boy.
    OP actually posted all the champs screenshots except for starky. They are all duped an minimum sig 20. I’d bet starky is also at least sig 20.
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    Colonaut123Colonaut123 Posts: 3,091 ★★★★★
    RazorDevil said:










    Etjama said:

    Aomine_Daiki10 said:

    You have Capiw at rank1 :/ kabaam I hope you are seeing this guy.

    Aaaand Sparky, aaand Warlock, aaand Doctor Doom, aaand CMM, aaand Ghost Rider, aaand Symbiote Supreme.

    Lol. Any decent champion is at least rank 2 for me (only not Red Hulk because I have maxed 4* Sig 99).
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    MatiEspinozaMatiEspinoza Posts: 93 ★
    Gotta love Diablo and Mordo description
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    LeoGnarleyardoLeoGnarleyardo Posts: 355 ★★
    RazorDevil said:

    LeoGnarleyardo said:

    Im curious about the Ghost rider fight, what sequence did you place your judgements. ??

    Heavy, sp1, light, sp2, medium, sp3
    Hahaha thats the sequence i place them. except when im low health then ill use the heavy judgment last to get the longest regen i can
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