Defender points are important!!!
Chuckneorr
Member Posts: 13
This last war my alliance did is a prime example of why defender kills are important to the game and create more strategic situations and allow alliances to win wars with skill instead of buying their way into the win. The removal of defender kills is going to take some of the strategy out Ann's make it more about who has the deepest pockets.
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screenshot here
So do you agree with removing defender kills and now alliances can just pay to win
It's about changing the strategy for amassing the most Points at the end of the War. The Item Cap is not changing, so it won't be any more spending than before. The truth is, if someone is relying on Defense Kills to gain a Win, someone else has to use Resources to try and beat them. As I've said, I've never considered it a safe idea to rely on blockading with Defense as opposed to making an effort. Exploration always gives more Points. Defense is something I only pay heed to when the Exploration is close, or higher than us. They're not just removing something. They're also introducing other means for Points. Makes no difference to me because at the end of the day, all it means is adjusting my strategy to gain the most Points. If people are dedicated to winning Wars, they will have to use Resources some time or another. Overpowering the Opponent instead of making an effort to get more Exploration is not a safe bet in my mind personally.
It feels like you're doing gymnastics to create this line of thought.
Limiting kills taken has always been a cool nuance imo. Balancing them vs a possible boss kill.. How much should the back up guy explore (and how many deaths are ok for them) before taking the boss. They're pretty integral overall. I realize changes happen, I'm open to whatever is coming. But you're just trying really hard lol.
I didn't say it wasn't part of the current meta. I said it was only a significant factor if Exploration is close to, or greater than, one's own. The point I'm trying to make is that Defender Kills will be replaced with Points from new sources in the new meta. All Points are important. What I said was, relying solely on Defender Kills alone is not a safe strategy in my mind. All it means is that we will have to make use of the new sources for Points. Determining whether a Win is possible if we keep using Resources is always a part of each individual War, of course. That's the strategy aspect to it. What I'm addressing is the idea that people will be forced to spend without DK. No one is forced to do anything, and it's always possible to strategize in the moment against an Opponent. Sometimes that involves using Resources. Sometimes it involves gauging whether a Win is possible. Sometimes it involves taking a Loss because we are out of Resources and we're not willing to spend. My main focus is Exploration currently. Then I monitor the amount of Kills if the opposing Ally has very few KOs, and is closing in in us or leading in Exploration. The new meta will give Points in other areas. Diversity, for example. It will require a new strategy. I didn't say they don't matter. I said they aren't the sole focus, and without them it will require a shift in strategy.
I don't understand this line of thought at all. Defender kills are the combat converse of exploration. Nobody "relies" on defender kills to win, because that's not something you can "do." The whole point of defender kills is to reward good exploration. You get points for exploring the map, but to do so you have to defeat the nodes along the paths. Defender kill points are a form of rewarding attackers for efficient map traversal. It is just done through penalizing attacker deaths (aka defender kills) because that's mathematically simpler.
Defender kills are not about trying to explicitly earn defender points directly. Once you place your defenders you have no control over them. You don't actively earn defender points beyond the initial strategic choices of good placement. You earn points when you attack, and defender kills are a way to reward efficient attackers. Removing defender kill points doesn't somehow shift the meta of AW to a more attacker-focused game. It actually reduces the incentive to be a good attacker.
Sure, they are adding other ways to earn points. But they've actually reduced the way in which the game rewards solid gameplay. Replacing defender kills with defender diversity actually makes AW more passive. You now really are rewarding players explicitly for defender placement, an activity that begins and ends before the actual war begins, and once the war begins there is no active way for the players to help themselves. As a general game design principle, I would consider that to be an objectively bad design choice.
TL;DR: Defender kill points are not about defenders. They are about being good attackers. That's not something you should deincentivize or replace with incentivizing passive gameplay in my opinion.
I'm relying on my own experience, and Defender Kills are usually the last thing I consider when organizing Wins. It's been pretty successful for me. I don't have much to say about good or bad design. My main point is that it's about organizing a Win through the most Points. That will be achievable in the new system, only with differences in how the Points are achieved. The OP referenced how the Win would not be possible without Defender Kills, but other Points will be added as well. I suspect the change to Placement was in response to the request that they diversify the Placement because of the excessive amount of Champs like NC and Magik. That would be speculation on my part. I'm not as concerned about it as some. As far as the comment about Defender Kills alone, I believe that it is more of a focus than allows genuine gameplay. Especially when you have imbalanced Matches that discourage Allies from trying because they get overpowered and KO too many times on the onset. In any case, I don't see it to be as detrimental as other people do. It means a shift in strategy. People may not agree with me. All I know is there are other ways to organize a Win besides amassing Defender Kills.
You don't get it man. The only time defender kills will ever get you a win is if the other alliance "buys" their way through your defense instead of playing skillfully. Now without the points allotted for defender kills less skilled players can effectively buy their way through instead of learning how to play with skill. This makes no sense and actually depreciates the skill level of the game.
People spending to use a limited number of Resources has always been an option. That's no more changed with or without Defender Kills. Sometimes it doesn't involve skill at all. If you get ambushed by AI and catch a Special to the face, you have to make a decision. Depending on the path you're on, you may have people relying on your Nodes. Essentially, what you're saying is if people choose to invest, they should be more apt to lose. It has very little to do with spending regardless. It has to do with balancing Points.
Exactly.
And no one has ever found an opponent and then said "Welp, time to 'organize this win' w defender kills". What does that even mean?
Besides, diversity points are at most a "tie breaker" type score according to the mod post.
Spending large amounts of revives to clear a section of map in AW should have a consequence as it shows less skilled play. So by taking away defender kill points your effectively penalizing the players that can clear a map without revives. And it's not a single revive bought that would win wars. But when an entire team can revive their champs 15 times with no consequences it leads to severely unbalanced gameplay where the people with the cash will always dominate
Wrong.
Yes. The same way Defender Kills have often been a tie breaker. Again, I didn't say people organized the Win with DK. However, it has become a way to allow the Opponent to be penalized for making an effort.
The conversation could go on ad infinitum. All I'm saying is the change is not as dire as it is being addressed. To be honest, defeating Champs should be worth more because that's where the effort goes into. That's my opinion.
That's a judgment placed on people who choose to spend. Having to use Resources is not an automatic indication that people have less skill.
Using low amounts of resources sure. But having the ability to use 15 revives with no consequences makes it impossible as a f2p player to keep up
Agree.
You can't revive 15 times, you have to heal too.
At the begining of the buzz about removing def pts, I was against it. But, after some toughts, I've come to the conclusion that it won't chage the tide of war that much.
If they remove the 15x items limit, then it will change. You will be able to take down a boss spending tons of units. And a boss worth mucho pts.
Not true at all. Why waste the units on potions when you can revive with no consequences. Bring champs with heal abilities and buy large revives 15 times and your unbeatable.