Time to remove Red Skull?

tkillcointkillcoin Member Posts: 10 ★
in Suggestions and Requests
I have always found the Red Skull character extremely uncomfortable to be around. I don't like playing against him, and I really don't like playing with him. I cringe every time he wins a battle, or is duped, and he does his Hydra salute. The guy is literally a ****. Isn't it time he be removed from the game? I find him offensive, as the grandson of a WWII vet. What must it be like for people of more marginalized communities? Is it too much to asked that he be erased?

Comments

  • Notsavage19Notsavage19 Member Posts: 2,817 ★★★★★
    He's an integral part of the Marvel universe. Of course, he has ties with a certain German dictator, but that was only to paint his backstory.
  • Notsavage19Notsavage19 Member Posts: 2,817 ★★★★★
    Red Skull was created around the time WWII was fizzling out. It was a creation solely of the time period when the Americans viewed the Germans as villains. This figure of the "Red Skull" was a representation of all the horrible things the _____ had done. I'm sure the idea wouldn't float as well in today's society, but you have to realize that back then was a different time with different sentiments.
  • Notsavage19Notsavage19 Member Posts: 2,817 ★★★★★
    Lil_Lasagna said:

    Your comment gets my award for most silliest and funniest comment. It’s cracking.

    Please don't say that. I get what OP is talking about. It comes from a place of hurt. He is valid for feeling that way about Red Skull, just like any minority is valid for feeling bad about being represented with a stereotype.

    All of these things are culturally unacceptable in our society today, but back then, it was. It's bad, but Marvel has shifted Red Skull away from the _____ to Hydra.
  • Notsavage19Notsavage19 Member Posts: 2,817 ★★★★★
    For example, the Mandarin was drawn with stereotypically Asian features, and the main goal of writing the Mandarin was to paint the Chinese in a bad light. As an individual of Chinese descent, I don't particularly like the portrayal of the Mandarin in the early comics, but I recognize that the portrayal comes from a time where the Chinese were disliked. Now, I'm glad that the Mandarin relies less on stereotypes and the negative feelings of Americans towards the Chinese. This is the same with Red Skull.
  • UnknownUnknown
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  • UnknownUnknown
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  • shadow_lurker22shadow_lurker22 Member Posts: 3,245 ★★★★★
    What you don't like slapping him around
  • TheHoodedDormammuTheHoodedDormammu Member Posts: 1,448 ★★★
    tkillcoin said:

    I have always found the Red Skull character extremely uncomfortable to be around. I don't like playing against him, and I really don't like playing with him. I cringe every time he wins a battle, or is duped, and he does his Hydra salute. The guy is literally a ****. Isn't it time he be removed from the game? I find him offensive, as the grandson of a WWII vet. What must it be like for people of more marginalized communities? Is it too much to asked that he be erased?

    Lol so what would happen to those of us who are blessed with 5* and 6* versions of him?
  • TerraTerra Member Posts: 8,452 ★★★★★
    UmbertoDelRio said:

    As a german I'm just glad he isn't the only german character in the game.

    Overall, though... I personally don't really get you.

    Red skull is not a historical figure. He is a completely fictional character intertwined with actual history.

    However, more than anything he is in a way a personification of the arrogance that lead to the downfall of the third reich. He's essentially in itself a critique of that system and it's monstrous behavior.

    There were actually several high ranking people in the regime believing in all kinds of silly stuff, yes even sillier than their race theory, like literal witchcraft. Additionally there was a lot of really wonky science.

    Red skull is basically that aspect of the **** regime ad absurdum in a world where wonky science and witchcraft actually do exist.

    Red skull had the biggest superiority complex in a regime that has it's whole baseline worldview rooted in a superiority complex.

    He's essentially a social satire.

    I thought Red Skull was the only german origin character in-game?
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Member Posts: 5,982 ★★★★★
    Terra said:

    UmbertoDelRio said:

    As a german I'm just glad he isn't the only german character in the game.

    Overall, though... I personally don't really get you.

    Red skull is not a historical figure. He is a completely fictional character intertwined with actual history.

    However, more than anything he is in a way a personification of the arrogance that lead to the downfall of the third reich. He's essentially in itself a critique of that system and it's monstrous behavior.

    There were actually several high ranking people in the regime believing in all kinds of silly stuff, yes even sillier than their race theory, like literal witchcraft. Additionally there was a lot of really wonky science.

    Red skull is basically that aspect of the **** regime ad absurdum in a world where wonky science and witchcraft actually do exist.

    Red skull had the biggest superiority complex in a regime that has it's whole baseline worldview rooted in a superiority complex.

    He's essentially a social satire.

    I thought Red Skull was the only german origin character in-game?
    Nightcrawler and the Magnetos are German.
  • TerraTerra Member Posts: 8,452 ★★★★★
    Magrailothos said:

    Terra said:

    UmbertoDelRio said:

    As a german I'm just glad he isn't the only german character in the game.

    Overall, though... I personally don't really get you.

    Red skull is not a historical figure. He is a completely fictional character intertwined with actual history.

    However, more than anything he is in a way a personification of the arrogance that lead to the downfall of the third reich. He's essentially in itself a critique of that system and it's monstrous behavior.

    There were actually several high ranking people in the regime believing in all kinds of silly stuff, yes even sillier than their race theory, like literal witchcraft. Additionally there was a lot of really wonky science.

    Red skull is basically that aspect of the **** regime ad absurdum in a world where wonky science and witchcraft actually do exist.

    Red skull had the biggest superiority complex in a regime that has it's whole baseline worldview rooted in a superiority complex.

    He's essentially a social satire.

    I thought Red Skull was the only german origin character in-game?
    Nightcrawler and the Magnetos are German.
    Well I guess you learn something new every day. Never knew they were German.
  • Mrspider568Mrspider568 Member Posts: 2,007 ★★★
    If they removed red skull i would ask them for my catalyst refund that i spent in taking him to rank 2
  • Notsavage19Notsavage19 Member Posts: 2,817 ★★★★★
    Eternal_Tripod83 said:

    Imagine you’re an 18 year old in the military during WWII. Let’s say Normandy. You land on a beach far from your intended position due to strong winds. Your buddy you just got to know immediately gets his head blown off. You travel up terrified and by every grace of god dodge bullets, avoid death in hand to hand combat, and become one of the men who kept this country free. Imagine the nightmares you have for the rest of your life being in those battles watching people die over and over in every gruesome way. Imagine the pride you would feel knowing you set foot in hell on earth and walked out a hero. Then imagine 70-80 years later all that freedom you fought for, the people who were able to live their lives peacefully, had kids, those kids had kids, and those kids whose freedom you almost died for and suffered a lifetime of ptsd for...imagine how you’d feel to hear they were afraid of and offended by a fictional character in a video game.

    It's not that they're afraid. It's that they feel like Red Skull tarnishes the efforts of the soldiers that fought in WWII.
    It's a valid opinion. It's like saying "I don't like so-and-so statue because they supported slavery during the Civil War." That's a valid opinion.
  • UnknownUnknown
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  • Notsavage19Notsavage19 Member Posts: 2,817 ★★★★★
    UmbertoDelRio said:

    Notsavage19 said:

    Eternal_Tripod83 said:

    Imagine you’re an 18 year old in the military during WWII. Let’s say Normandy. You land on a beach far from your intended position due to strong winds. Your buddy you just got to know immediately gets his head blown off. You travel up terrified and by every grace of god dodge bullets, avoid death in hand to hand combat, and become one of the men who kept this country free. Imagine the nightmares you have for the rest of your life being in those battles watching people die over and over in every gruesome way. Imagine the pride you would feel knowing you set foot in hell on earth and walked out a hero. Then imagine 70-80 years later all that freedom you fought for, the people who were able to live their lives peacefully, had kids, those kids had kids, and those kids whose freedom you almost died for and suffered a lifetime of ptsd for...imagine how you’d feel to hear they were afraid of and offended by a fictional character in a video game.

    It's not that they're afraid. It's that they feel like Red Skull tarnishes the efforts of the soldiers that fought in WWII.
    It's a valid opinion. It's like saying "I don't like so-and-so statue because they supported slavery during the Civil War." That's a valid opinion.
    The main difference is that red skull is a fictional character that has neither been created nor ever been used to support or glorify the ideals of the third reich, but to criticize them and combine them into one clear antagonist for the good people to fight and win against.

    If someone had a red skull statue in their yard, it would take a lot of mental gymnastics for me to believe they're a n*zi lol.

    For what it's worth, I'm german and parts of my family are of jewish descent. Most of my ancestors flew from the regime, because they would have been persecuted.

    And I personally do not only believe the view of OP is silly, I even believe it's extremely problematic.

    As long as it isn't actively supporting or glorifying the actions done by the n*zi regime, nothing historical or historically inspired should simply be censored or erased. One of the many things the n*zi regime did was ban certain books, types of music, art, etc. That type of mindset is what OP's grandfather fought against.

    I mean, in a way if his opinion is valid, then it would also be valid to want to just destroy what's left of auschwitz so that no one has to ever have bad feelings again being reminded about what happened there.

    Red skull is one of the many many many many things we did/used to cope with what happened there and to try and somewhat simplify the moral of the story. Erasing or censoring history is almost never a good idea.
    No, I completely agree that Red Skull doesn't really embody the N*zis, and that censoring history isn't a good idea, but I'm just pissed at the people who are calling OP stupid for feeling that way.
  • GiuliameijGiuliameij Member Posts: 1,849 ★★★★
    Magrailothos said:

    Terra said:

    UmbertoDelRio said:

    As a german I'm just glad he isn't the only german character in the game.

    Overall, though... I personally don't really get you.

    Red skull is not a historical figure. He is a completely fictional character intertwined with actual history.

    However, more than anything he is in a way a personification of the arrogance that lead to the downfall of the third reich. He's essentially in itself a critique of that system and it's monstrous behavior.

    There were actually several high ranking people in the regime believing in all kinds of silly stuff, yes even sillier than their race theory, like literal witchcraft. Additionally there was a lot of really wonky science.

    Red skull is basically that aspect of the **** regime ad absurdum in a world where wonky science and witchcraft actually do exist.

    Red skull had the biggest superiority complex in a regime that has it's whole baseline worldview rooted in a superiority complex.

    He's essentially a social satire.

    I thought Red Skull was the only german origin character in-game?
    Nightcrawler and the Magnetos are German.
    Always thought magneto was Polish. Ah well. You learn something every day.
  • GiuliameijGiuliameij Member Posts: 1,849 ★★★★
    To the OP. Is it mostly the salute he does at the end? Or just his character as a whole.
    Because I do get the salute thing. The first time I saw it I actually thought it was kind of risky and it would trigger more people to complain. I personally do not mind it. It is part of the character.
    If you change his salute you also need to change other salute type of specials/victory poses.
    Because there are probably people playing this game that are hurt by american soldiers.
    So in that regard Iron Patriot should be removes aswell.
  • UnknownUnknown
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  • manveertherealmanveerthereal Member Posts: 1,363 ★★★
    Take Corvus beat red skull ez
  • tkillcointkillcoin Member Posts: 10 ★
    I suppose Giuliameij really honed in on the thing that bothers me most, and that is the salute. (Tough luck on Iron Patriot, though. That salute is one that is much more universal in military circles across the globe. And as it is the OG Norman Osborn IP, it is something a bad guy is co-opting; it is not the tanked-up Col. Rhodes from 'Iron Man 3'.) To me, the Hydra salute more directly ties them to their former regime than any other aspects of their characterization, and in this game, Red Skull is the only one who engages in it. I do take the point of RS being a fictional character (and yes, I've read those original comics and many many others, and seen 'First Avenger'), but a playable character in a game--one you are invited to inhabit and potentially identify with as an avatar--is separate from his other incarnations. In every other instance, he is clearly something to be defeated, a menace, something to be punched in the face. I don't feel like that is the case here, and for lack of a better word, that's just icky, to me! And to someone else's point, it was actually the duping of my RS 5* that put this notion in my head. The idea of needing to rank him up further (and endure multiple salutes), because he is that much more functional in-game created this resentment. Perhaps it was overzealous of me to ask for his removal from the game, but I was and am willing to make the ask in order to spark a genuine conversation in good faith. I thank those who were able to disagree respectfully, and not call me 'harmful' or 'stupid' or tell me to go play Candy Crush.
  • GiuliameijGiuliameij Member Posts: 1,849 ★★★★
    Whether the 'american' military salute is more universal does not matter. The Salute triggers you because it reminds you of a certain group of people that hurt your grandparents, and many others for that matter.
    Again I do understand if it makes you feel uncomfortable. But simple because we are on the hand to your head salute side does not mean that does not hurt others.
    There are parts of the world that were hurt by soldiers that use that salute.

    Also, duping the champ does not mean you have to rank him up. If you pull him, sell him. If you have to fight him. Just kill him and do not let him win.

    I would never call you harmful or stupid. A feeling can never be stupid, because you just feel that way.
    I do however not believe that it is good enough of a reasoning to remove the champ from the game.
  • Marvel2289Marvel2289 Member Posts: 1,008 ★★★
    Giuliameij said:

    Whether the 'american' military salute is more universal does not matter. The Salute triggers you because it reminds you of a certain group of people that hurt your grandparents, and many others for that matter.
    Again I do understand if it makes you feel uncomfortable. But simple because we are on the hand to your head salute side does not mean that does not hurt others.
    There are parts of the world that were hurt by soldiers that use that salute.

    Also, duping the champ does not mean you have to rank him up. If you pull him, sell him. If you have to fight him. Just kill him and do not let him win.

    I would never call you harmful or stupid. A feeling can never be stupid, because you just feel that way.
    I do however not believe that it is good enough of a reasoning to remove the champ from the game.

    Actually the N**I salute was only 1 arm, while the Hydra one is 2 arms
  • GiuliameijGiuliameij Member Posts: 1,849 ★★★★
    Marvel2289 said:

    Giuliameij said:

    Whether the 'american' military salute is more universal does not matter. The Salute triggers you because it reminds you of a certain group of people that hurt your grandparents, and many others for that matter.
    Again I do understand if it makes you feel uncomfortable. But simple because we are on the hand to your head salute side does not mean that does not hurt others.
    There are parts of the world that were hurt by soldiers that use that salute.

    Also, duping the champ does not mean you have to rank him up. If you pull him, sell him. If you have to fight him. Just kill him and do not let him win.

    I would never call you harmful or stupid. A feeling can never be stupid, because you just feel that way.
    I do however not believe that it is good enough of a reasoning to remove the champ from the game.

    Actually the N**I salute was only 1 arm, while the Hydra one is 2 arms
    @Marvel2289 So what you are actually saying is that my point is even stronger? Since one is just a reference to a different kind of salute, and the other is an actual real life salute?
    Also I never actually said the salutes are the same, just that it might remind him of it.
  • RipStitcherRipStitcher Member Posts: 2
    Magrailothos said:

    Terra said:

    UmbertoDelRio said:

    As a german I'm just glad he isn't the only german character in the game.

    Overall, though... I personally don't really get you.

    Red skull is not a historical figure. He is a completely fictional character intertwined with actual history.

    However, more than anything he is in a way a personification of the arrogance that lead to the downfall of the third reich. He's essentially in itself a critique of that system and it's monstrous behavior.

    There were actually several high ranking people in the regime believing in all kinds of silly stuff, yes even sillier than their race theory, like literal witchcraft. Additionally there was a lot of really wonky science.

    Red skull is basically that aspect of the **** regime ad absurdum in a world where wonky science and witchcraft actually do exist.

    Red skull had the biggest superiority complex in a regime that has it's whole baseline worldview rooted in a superiority complex.

    He's essentially a social satire.

    I thought Red Skull was the only german origin character in-game?
    Nightcrawler and the Magnetos are German.
    Excuse me sir NC isnt german
  • TerraTerra Member Posts: 8,452 ★★★★★
    edited June 2020
    RipStitcher said:

    Magrailothos said:

    Terra said:

    UmbertoDelRio said:

    As a german I'm just glad he isn't the only german character in the game.

    Overall, though... I personally don't really get you.

    Red skull is not a historical figure. He is a completely fictional character intertwined with actual history.

    However, more than anything he is in a way a personification of the arrogance that lead to the downfall of the third reich. He's essentially in itself a critique of that system and it's monstrous behavior.

    There were actually several high ranking people in the regime believing in all kinds of silly stuff, yes even sillier than their race theory, like literal witchcraft. Additionally there was a lot of really wonky science.

    Red skull is basically that aspect of the **** regime ad absurdum in a world where wonky science and witchcraft actually do exist.

    Red skull had the biggest superiority complex in a regime that has it's whole baseline worldview rooted in a superiority complex.

    He's essentially a social satire.

    I thought Red Skull was the only german origin character in-game?
    Nightcrawler and the Magnetos are German.
    Excuse me sir NC isnt german
    He's German (born in Bavaria) according to the official marvel Wiki. His name is Kurt Wagner
  • MauledMauled Member, Guardian Posts: 3,957 Guardian
    edited June 2020
    I clicked this assuming it was a grumble that he’s an awful champ, not a political post.

    If you want to whitewash everything, sure delete him. History is littered with people and organisations/states who represent ideologies which are anathema to the modern 21st century man. If you want to hide this from the world, how will they learn? Should we remove all films on Genghis Khan because he was party to war crimes? Rome because they owned slaves in a time when people sold themselves into slavery? British, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, German, Belgian, Turkish, Russian, Japanese, Aztec history because of Empire, the various Middle East states’ oppression of their citizens. America for the slave culture - I could go on.

    If you delete everything that doesn’t fit into the post-modern man’s idea of civilisation you will end up with a blank piece of paper in front of you that represents world history.
  • GiuliameijGiuliameij Member Posts: 1,849 ★★★★
    @Mauled that sir, is a very good post!
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