Hades side quest unstoppable rarely procs for blade

Speeds80Speeds80 Member Posts: 2,017 ★★★★
in Bugs and Known Issues
I guess this is aar reduction at work same as the omega red prowess bug in eq. I understand why it’s happening but seriously it doesn’t make sense if you can fix it. Aar isn’t supposed to reduce your own beneficial abilities, when I’m using blade (W danger sense) backed off against the rulk boss the unstoppable keeps not triggering on blade. Same as the bleeds on omega red keep not converting to prowess, you have made the beneficial gain a reflection of the defenders benefit, aar should not reduce our own attackers benefits
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  • Lovejoy72Lovejoy72 Member Posts: 1,858 ★★★★
    Speeds80 said:

    I guess this is aar reduction at work same as the omega red prowess bug in eq. I understand why it’s happening but seriously it doesn’t make sense if you can fix it. Aar isn’t supposed to reduce your own beneficial abilities, when I’m using blade (W danger sense) backed off against the rulk boss the unstoppable keeps not triggering on blade. Same as the bleeds on omega red keep not converting to prowess, you have made the beneficial gain a reflection of the defenders benefit, aar should not reduce our own attackers benefits

    I experienced the same thing the one time I used blade in there. Makes for a long fight.
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Speeds80 said:

    I guess this is aar reduction at work same as the omega red prowess bug in eq. I understand why it’s happening but seriously it doesn’t make sense if you can fix it. Aar isn’t supposed to reduce your own beneficial abilities, when I’m using blade (W danger sense) backed off against the rulk boss the unstoppable keeps not triggering on blade. Same as the bleeds on omega red keep not converting to prowess, you have made the beneficial gain a reflection of the defenders benefit, aar should not reduce our own attackers benefits

    its not "your own beneficial abilities", it is a node, which is attached to the defender, and AAR shuts all of those down, if they are beneficial or not, by design.,
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Member Posts: 2,017 ★★★★
    I’m not disagreeing that’s how it’s been designed, I query the design that turns a double benefit into a negative, so the champs who would by logic should be good for those fights are not. I’ve fought it several times now and haven’t had an unstoppable fail to proc on jugs whenever the timer ends (if I’m too close), but if I’m far away it won’t proc on me 2/3 times, if this is the case it maybe a bug, has anyone seen jugs not proc the unstoppable from the timer via the node?
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Speeds80 said:

    I’m not disagreeing that’s how it’s been designed, I query the design that turns a double benefit into a negative, so the champs who would by logic should be good for those fights are not. I’ve fought it several times now and haven’t had an unstoppable fail to proc on jugs whenever the timer ends (if I’m too close), but if I’m far away it won’t proc on me 2/3 times, if this is the case it maybe a bug, has anyone seen jugs not proc the unstoppable from the timer via the node?

    Except you do not need to use blades AAR with him, he is not a dimensional being, you do not need to take the synergy with him. In addition if you are playing properly it should not proc on him often, and RNG can be a fickle mistress.
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Member Posts: 2,017 ★★★★
    Funny thing about design, logic is supposed to drive it. I am a designer, kabam seem to often have a saying working as intended that often translates as, that will do, doesn’t make sense but we can’t be bothered changing it. You do realise danger sense increases damage via attack rating, logically that would make him a good counter to rulk. Having his ability work against him is illogical, procing Unstoppable via a node being an ability is also illogical
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Speeds80 said:

    Funny thing about design, logic is supposed to drive it. I am a designer, kabam seem to often have a saying working as intended that often translates as, that will do, doesn’t make sense but we can’t be bothered changing it. You do realise danger sense increases damage via attack rating, logically that would make him a good counter to rulk. Having his ability work against him is illogical, procing Unstoppable via a node being an ability is also illogical

    There is nothing "illogical" about it. You not liking the mechanic does not make it illogical. Your champion and the defender both have abilities, nodes are modifications to the defenders abilities, basically additions to their kit. There is nothing illogical about that.
  • Sarvanga1_Sarvanga1_ Member Posts: 4,157 ★★★★★
    AAR champs are pretty bad for that rulk. Had to use doom and quake to finish him.
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Member Posts: 2,017 ★★★★
    Here’s an example of bad design, regarding the mutant omega red eq. take the champ in the game it would seem the node is designed for ( how many people have their old man Logan or beast ranked up?) and make each fight take 150 hits, because the beneficial ability won’t trigger because of aar. I can’t help thinking it wasn’t unintended, then they said working as intended, why else would they design that node, the nodes in that eq are clearly designed for certain champs, I’m not questioning this as a bug, but giving feedback that from a design perspective maybe in the future they should look at the aar interaction when it affects beneficial effects, nullifying counters willfully or accidentally leads to some long boring fights,
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Speeds80 said:

    Here’s an example of bad design, regarding the mutant omega red eq. take the champ in the game it would seem the node is designed for ( how many people have their old man Logan or beast ranked up?) and make each fight take 150 hits, because the beneficial ability won’t trigger because of aar. I can’t help thinking it wasn’t unintended, then they said working as intended, why else would they design that node, the nodes in that eq are clearly designed for certain champs, I’m not questioning this as a bug, but giving feedback that from a design perspective maybe in the future they should look at the aar interaction when it affects beneficial effects, nullifying counters willfully or accidentally leads to some long boring fights,

    "Designed for certain champs"

    I assume you mean by this OR? Who can still take advantage of the prowess build up if he backs off on the spores, or more to the point why would he even care about the prowess, you get more damage from the spores being there sustained, and SP2 would be the absolutely only special that leaves them on there.

    Or about about magneto, who also benefits from the bleeds, and for everyone but metal does not have to worry about AAR.

    Or domino who can shed off bleeds altogether for power gain, and wont have much of an issue unless you dont pay attention and throw specials while the defender is unlucky.

    Or beast who benefits from it but does not have any draw backs what so ever.

    Or how about Namor, another that the node works really well for, and does not have much of an issue with any of it.

    Or how about rogue who just sheds debuffs off 65% quicker, incase they cannot get to a special, and still would not have an issue

    And I am sure there are more I am not thinking of who has something to bypass it.

    But wait, threes more. The node itself gives a 50% reduction in potency, meaning they dont add up very fast to the point you can keep throwing specials without taking much damage.

    There is like exactly one champion that this basically nullifies, and who can still take advantage if played slight differently.
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Member Posts: 2,017 ★★★★
    I stand corrected on magneto, didn’t realise his bleed reduction, mine is not r5d yet, looks like that node does have an obvious intended beneficent and I may have overestimated the bleed if namor is viable/ can sustain 6-8 bleeds at a time during non tedious slow fighting, (what I’m querying is the design direction that takes away counters, and makes for more tedious long and boring fights) Part of the design process is feedback, my feedback regarding the rulk fight is questioning whether they intended to make the fight so long and boring for a side quest, reducing the typical counters has this effect, if it was intended then logically I find it strange, but maybe their thought process was to not have obvious counters for that fight and making it a long fight whoever is ranked on your roster. My goal is to raise the question whether next time they design a fight like that they might want to rethink aar interaction, As like I stated at the start it seems strange from a design perspective to have double beneficial effects turning into a negative
  • EtjamaEtjama Member Posts: 7,981 ★★★★★
    Your own AAR can work against you. AAR cancels out node abilities and why would it only shut down the stuff that doesn't benefit you?
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Speeds80 said:

    I stand corrected on magneto, didn’t realise his bleed reduction, mine is not r5d yet, looks like that node does have an obvious intended beneficent and I may have overestimated the bleed if namor is viable/ can sustain 6-8 bleeds at a time during non tedious slow fighting, (what I’m querying is the design direction that takes away counters, and makes for more tedious long and boring fights) Part of the design process is feedback, my feedback regarding the rulk fight is questioning whether they intended to make the fight so long and boring for a side quest, reducing the typical counters has this effect, if it was intended then logically I find it strange, but maybe their thought process was to not have obvious counters for that fight and making it a long fight whoever is ranked on your roster. My goal is to raise the question whether next time they design a fight like that they might want to rethink aar interaction, As like I stated at the start it seems strange from a design perspective to have double beneficial effects turning into a negative

    you are finding it long and boring because you are using a bad counter, and upset because he would traditionally be a good counter. But instead of looking at the nodes and figuring better counters you just throw up your arms and say it is illogical. There are a great number of counters for red hulk, really all you need is someone who does not have AAR.

    In fact I would be willing to bet money that the issue you are upset with is not even AAR stopping the unstoppable, and would probably never have an issue with it if the node combo did not have cant stop wont stop with it as well. That is because people generally dont care about getting unstoppable.
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Member Posts: 2,017 ★★★★
    You are putting a lot of assumption on me. I’m simply here stating that from a design perspective two benefits working against you strikes me as counterintuitive, ie clunky design, the node doesn’t bother me, the fight doesn’t bother me, rulk is a very easy defender, it’s a reasonably fun node, blade is still a reasonable and safe use for the fight. He does decent damage even without the unstoppable but seems to not proc a lot, every fight I did he still healed, I’m just questioning clunky design, I’ve not spent much thought on aar interaction with nodes, if this is the blanket rule , maybe changing it would create other Issues, again from a designer point of view when my interaction with a design immediately makes me question its logic, I am happy to give feedback to the designer. I thought it was worth putting to kabam that if this wasn’t intended it might be worth looking at the aar interaction in the future, there is no right or wrong just a questioning of intended interaction
  • sarvanamansarvanaman Member Posts: 8 ★
    Please tell me which nodes makes these defenders unstoppable?
  • sarvanamansarvanaman Member Posts: 8 ★
    Please tell me which nodes makes these defenders unstoppable?
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  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Haji_Saab said:

    We have this issue with the new cav nodes that AAR takes away the beneficial effect from the node as well .. I don't think it should work like that ... for example, I have pacify and it took me at least 5 heavies to get rid of the flux charges as AAR was preventing me from removing them and doing any damage.

    I think it needs to be fixed as it is making some champs and masteries problematic for no good reason.

    It works like that, it has always worked like that, and confirmed that it should work like that.
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Member Posts: 2,017 ★★★★
    Let me be clear the node says “if the attacker is far away from the defender when this happens, the attacker gains the unstoppable instead” The clunkiness is this, how is me, the attacker gaining an unstoppable From a node that I’m playing as it reads, defined as a defenders ability, and thus able to be reduced, this seems illogical however you spin it, Now I’m in the monthly eq fighting rulk with blade and the punishment glutton node is failing to proC the furies in blade because of aar I assume again, so ability reduction reduces our ability to proc a beneficial gain, I though aar was supposed to be designed as an advantage, there is only disadvantage here, rulk is bleeding but when the bleed expires I don’t get the fury half the time.
    If that’s working as intended it’s a sarcastic clap from me regarding logical design
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Speeds80 said:

    Let me be clear the node says “if the attacker is far away from the defender when this happens, the attacker gains the unstoppable instead” The clunkiness is this, how is me, the attacker gaining an unstoppable From a node that I’m playing as it reads, defined as a defenders ability, and thus able to be reduced, this seems illogical however you spin it, Now I’m in the monthly eq fighting rulk with blade and the punishment glutton node is failing to proC the furies in blade because of aar I assume again, so ability reduction reduces our ability to proc a beneficial gain, I though aar was supposed to be designed as an advantage, there is only disadvantage here, rulk is bleeding but when the bleed expires I don’t get the fury half the time.
    If that’s working as intended it’s a sarcastic clap from me regarding logical design

    ARR was never designed soley as an advantage, they have repeatedly stated that it works both ways, it just wont shut down YOUR abilities, but nodes are not your abilities, even if they may be described that way.. Again you are confusing "logical" with not liking something, that is not how that word works. The ability is logical because it works as the design of the game determines it should work, and that is it shuts down the abilities of the opponent
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Member Posts: 2,017 ★★★★
    But by this logic nodes become your opponents abilities, but not your abilities
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Member Posts: 2,017 ★★★★
    This also makes synergy purely disadvantageous in some cases, ie illogical
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Speeds80 said:

    But by this logic nodes become your opponents abilities, but not your abilities

    This is correct. Nodes become partt of your opponents abilities.
    Speeds80 said:

    This also makes synergy purely disadvantageous in some cases, ie illogical

    It is only illogical if that was not the design intention. Sometimes your abilities hurt you. Energy attacks help you in many cases, but take then against HT and they will hurt you badly even if they are skill based champs it will make it harder. This is because you are supposed to consider your opponents abilities and the nodes when choosing an attacker, not just blindly pick your highest damage attacker. I am really not thinking you are a game designer.
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Member Posts: 2,017 ★★★★
    Let me take this back to the wording, danger sense “Reduces the opponents ability accuracy by 40%. I’m saying classing the node designed to reward the attacker for synergy or specific attacker/ play style as a defenders ability not an attackers ability is illogical. I would love an official kabam answer here. Is this working as intended, that my synergy of danger sense is supposed to reduced my own ability to proc the fury, have you purposefully designed aar to be disadvantageous in many of these new nodes, where it is cancelling our own advantages, i see that when most nodes are defensive abilities this makes sense, but since these nodes are obviously for the attackers advantage it would make more sense to make them an attackers ability rather than a defenders
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Member Posts: 2,017 ★★★★
    you are arguing that since it is designed this way it is correct. That’s some classic grounded wisdom logic right there, I’m saying that since these nodes are clearly designed for the attacker to gain benefit, it seems strange that they are classed as a defensive ability. Having two advantages cancel each other out is clearly not the Most logical design. And we all know kabam don’t always think every interaction through before release. If this is Actually the design intention - to reduce the actual abilities of the classic counters then so be it. I would suggest that it makes more sense to class these nodes that are designed to be advantageous to the attacker as attackers abilities and so, not affected by aar.
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Speeds80 said:

    you are arguing that since it is designed this way it is correct. That’s some classic grounded wisdom logic right there, I’m saying that since these nodes are clearly designed for the attacker to gain benefit, it seems strange that they are classed as a defensive ability. Having two advantages cancel each other out is clearly not the Most logical design. And we all know kabam don’t always think every interaction through before release. If this is Actually the design intention - to reduce the actual abilities of the classic counters then so be it. I would suggest that it makes more sense to class these nodes that are designed to be advantageous to the attacker as attackers abilities and so, not affected by aar.

    That is what is known as a strawman argument, a logical fallacy. I am not claiming anything is correct, I dont get to make that call, the designers do.

    What I am saying is that the logic of a game mechanic is not derived from if you or I like it nor not, but if the mechanic fits within the game design philosophy. it it matches the design philosophy of the designers then it is logical, if it goes against it then it is illogical.

    Now you are adding in a new thing that shows you do not understand this game. It is not a "defensive ability" Defensive abilities are its own things like parry, it is a general ability modification of the opponent. There is no way you can classify something like +300% attack node as "a defensive ability". I mean "champion boost +200% attack and health", it does not say that it is for the defender, yet we know because of the game mechanics that it is for the defender, because we know nodes are modifications to defender abilities, and those abilities will sometimes allow the attacker to do some things.


    There is no way they can think through ever interaction, but if you dont think they know what nodes are affected by AAR then I dont know what to tell you.

    You seem to like one dimensional games where you dont have to think about what you are doing, that does not make sense to me, but if that is what you like so be it.
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Speeds80 said:

    Let me take this back to the wording, danger sense “Reduces the opponents ability accuracy by 40%. I’m saying classing the node designed to reward the attacker for synergy or specific attacker/ play style as a defenders ability not an attackers ability is illogical. I would love an official kabam answer here. Is this working as intended, that my synergy of danger sense is supposed to reduced my own ability to proc the fury, have you purposefully designed aar to be disadvantageous in many of these new nodes, where it is cancelling our own advantages, i see that when most nodes are defensive abilities this makes sense, but since these nodes are obviously for the attackers advantage it would make more sense to make them an attackers ability rather than a defenders

    The node is not meant to reward but to challenge. IF it was meant to reward then it would not fluctuate and require you to do something to prevent the opponent from getting it. If you need an official response to it you can search the forums, there are many of them, such as this one:

    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/roletracker/jump/220279/2020-09-19 21:24:32

    Or this one where they completely state that it can prevent helpful effects:

    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/roletracker/jump/221239/2020-09-05 19:12:34
    Kabam Zibiit said:

    Hey there, i can confirm that ability accuracy can stop some nodes from activating and, while that can be helpful in many cases, it can occasionally prevent the helpful effects from a node as well.

  • Speeds80Speeds80 Member Posts: 2,017 ★★★★
    By “defensive ability” I am simply meaning the ability that is advantageous on defense, as a rule of thumb until this game direction, nodes have usually been to enhance defence, aar had usually been advantageous to the attacker as it reduced the defenders abilities, both from their abilities and nodes, as you defined it yourself “the node is another addition to their kit”. However these nodes are obviously an addition to the attackers kit. So classing then as an ability for the defender, not the attacker is not the most logical design.
    The ability for an attacker to get stronger hardly seems an addition to the defenders kit
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Speeds80 said:

    By “defensive ability” I am simply meaning the ability that is advantageous on defense, as a rule of thumb until this game direction, nodes have usually been to enhance defence, aar had usually been advantageous to the attacker as it reduced the defenders abilities, both from their abilities and nodes, as you defined it yourself “the node is another addition to their kit”. However these nodes are obviously an addition to the attackers kit. So classing then as an ability for the defender, not the attacker is not the most logical design.
    The ability for an attacker to get stronger hardly seems an addition to the defenders kit

    Except that does not deviate from what I stated, nodes are not "defensive", again, 200% attack is not advantages on defense, as it does nothing for defense.

    Also no, they have not always been to enhance defense, nodes that gave gave bonuses to the attacker have been in here for many years, and AAR has always affected them, I gave you one such example in dungeons/invasions. A node that stuns the defender at the start for example that has been around what 3+ years is quite obviously not "defensive". And what you claim as "obvious" is obviously false. They may sometimes seem that way, such as the seeing red path in cav eq, but they never are.
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Member Posts: 2,017 ★★★★
    Maybe this is clever design to not make any attackers op, however I suspect this is something they didn’t project and may go against what they are trying to achieve with those nodes, no biggy this month, wasn’t particularly hard but if the 4* challenge is semi regular it may be something to look into
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